[Closed] 2013/14 Rugby Thread

yes on reflection, I think we should both edit that right now...

toys19 - Member

I don't do excuses, we either win or we don't, if we do we are awesome, if we don't we are not awesome.

Shouldn't that be in the thread about motivational quotes on top-tubes?

there is no try

they should have said that to Ashton!

I don't think anyone is going to argue about that AA.

AA is the self appointed rugby expert on here who is sucked up to by most people, and thinks he has "an understanding of rugby" which is greater than everyone else's.
A large proportion of the other participants are also Non England supporters, the remainder are made up of England supporters who dare not argue with the great AA as he has more clever sounding phrases in his armoury.
A few are idiots like me who waste their breath trying to counter the PoMo rubbish that is spouted on here about Rugby.

this is funny because I mostly just seem to get abuse, from he who shall not be named and you. Like being arrogant for suggesting it was kind of obvious Wales would lose to SA, wasnt that what you said?
I'd be more than happy to consider anything I've said about the England team that is untrue or in anyway racist, biggotted or rude. Problem is people like yourself and he who shall not be named have quite odd views which mostly seem to be based on what you think I say rather than what I've actually said.

I have just got off a flight to abu dhabi, I was sat next to the captain of the Papua New Guinea rfl team. The rest of his team were in cattle class, he was next to me in business! Hmmmmm

. Like being arrogant for suggesting it was kind of obvious Wales would lose to SA, wasnt that what you said?

No I said you were arrogant for assuming you had "rugby knowledge" that seems to trump everyone elses. I did not say you were rascist, or bigotted, you are rude but I do not really object to that as its much more subjective.

This is [b]based on an understanding of rugby[/b]. I'll love it if they win but it'll be a shock. I fail to see [b]how anyone who understands the game [/b]could be any more than hopeful of a welsh win. [b]Could you explain how you think a wales team [/b]who havent beaten anyone any good for ages will beat the second best team in the world.

I think these in bold show terrible arrogance, nothing to do with your conclusions, you just basically dismissed the other guy by insinuating your knowledge trumped his.
PS you wanted it to go back to the rugby, I agree, I'm only answering your question..

[b]anagallis_arvensis[/b] - Member
Tuilagi could miss six nations according to Beeb. Same injury as Davies.

Wales have beaten SA once and drawn once in all games v SA since international matches have been played. The bookies had SA as favourites as they are the second best team in the the world. The welsh team without Roberts its much weaker. It hardly takes a rugby genius to put all this together and predict a welsh loss yet a number of the england fans see this as some sort of reverse psychology effect and love to talk up wales, without realising that beating England in Cardiff isnt a massive achievement.

So explain to me how anyone who understands the game could have been any more than hopeful of a welsh win?

It is not anything to do with your conclusion, the rest of us were being fanciful anyway as you well know.
Frankly the above statement just adds to my general impression that you feel you know best. I.E. you imply that if you disagree then you obviously do not have an understanding of rugby, it's an informal [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well ]logical fallacy[/url] known as poisoning the well. and it serves to destroy the discussion.

As dezb said

DezB - Member
"An understanding of rugby" means you can't predict what will happen!

An understanding of rugby" means you can't predict what will happen!

and yet I did!

Yah, as someone else said it is hedging your bets, you had a 50/50 chance of getting it right. It was and is pretty obvious to anyone with even a cursory knowledge of rugby, or based on statistics, form or even black box/neural net input and response learning that SA are most likely to win. That is not my point.

@aa - well I for one expected Wales to lose to SA (too big an ask coming into the match without much preparation whereas SA had a great 4-nations). What I cannot understand is your lack of confidence in beating Australia.

As I've said we played them 240 000 times last season and lost. Losing Adam means our scrum will be shit as the back up is Andrews who is shit and he might be broken next cab off the rank is Lee but he hasnt the fitness for international rugby... Longer term he might be the answer though. We have also lost our midfield boshers and Gatland has never shown any hint of a plan B in this regard.

It was and is pretty obvious to anyone with even a cursory knowledge of rugby, or based on statistics, form or even black box/neural net input and response learning that SA are most likely to win

wasnt that my shockingly arrogant point. You really need to step up your debating skills.

Soooo.
Predictions on scores?

Wales by 10
NZ by 15
France by 20
Ireland by 5
Italy by 7
SA by 20

Can't be too far out. No surprises then?

Argies by 3
Saffas by 15+
ABs by 10

Wales are more than capable of losing.
Fiji Italy could be close as Ireland Aus.
I was shocked when NZ got beat by England last year so who knows.

Oh I thought that it was Ireland v SA....in that case I'm going Aussie by 7 and a quick Google shows that the Saffas are playing Scotland....I'm with you a_a 20 plus victory for SA!

I dunno about the others, but based on form, I fully expect NZ to win by 25+ points. England have looked underwhelming and have beaten only piss poor teams.
This is based on a hunch.
AA, we were all surprised, is there anybody out there that thinks England have a chance? Convince me..

Rancid

[img] [/img]

Just watched the ScrumV highlights and discussion of the Wales game and apparently Jon Davies made more meters in 12 minutes before his injury than anyone else in the rest of the team all game 😯

Wales have had one plan for a very long time. With the right players available they can beat anyone. Question is, can they get a more subtle plan B in operation before the 6N?

What does Hook have to do to get a start, be it at 10 or in the centres? Looking at the backs available you feel there is a big lack of depth there... then you realise this guy called Hook is still floating around being massively underused. With players like Beck likely to start there is massive potential for a non-bosh, high skill approach yet perhaps less than 1% chance of a game plan involving playing intelligently.

With the injuries it is also a chance to bring Scott Williams on much in the same way Jon Davies developed in the National set up. Davies didn't look anywhere near international level for his first half dozen games but has improved hugely. The Scarlets tout Williams as the next big thing after Davies, stronger than a prop, quicker than a winger... so lets see it happen 😀

Is Biggar really any better than Priestland? I can see both making the same errors Priestland did against SA 😕 Neither are truely world class. Hmmm...

North in the centres seems a waste just to maintain bosh plan A. Bit of a lack of wingers in Wales too should he switch 😕

Forwards look pretty solid though and maybe Wales will miss Adam less now than ever before? Backs seem to be the main concern but maybe others disagree 😕

10 is an issue in Wales, I would prefer Biggar over Priestland but that maybe be down to him being an Osprey, neither are world class.

Hook at 10 for me. Always wanted to see that. Biggar or Priestland on the bench, and then Hook can move to the centre or 15 if needed. 1/2p can play wing or 15, so there's lots of flexibility that way.

toys19 - Member
... is there anybody out there that thinks England have a chance? Convince me...

If it pisses down, with lightning and hail and everything, the pitch turns into a bog and we are limited to up ya jumper rugby, [b]and [/b]England retain over 60% posession, they have a chance.

The forecast is "Sunny". Arse. I'm with Toys19 on the score, approx 20pts by the AB's - something like 31-12 final score.

The Scarlets tout Williams as the next big thing after Davies, stronger than a prop, quicker than a winger... so lets see it happen

The Scarlets tout every one of their players as bigger, better, faster, etc. Always have. Sometimes they are right, more often they are talking rubbish. Scott Williams is very good, though.

Is Biggar really any better than Priestland?

North in the centres seems a waste just to maintain bosh plan A. Bit of a lack of wingers in Wales too should he switch

And as far as Hook getting a game? He doesn't fit in with Wales' style of play. In fact he doesn't fit in with most teams' style of play which is why he is labelled utility. He can sit on the same bench as Cipriani, Quade Cooper as far as I'm concerned. Exciting to watch simply because he could win or lose the game with one movement.

No denying Williams quality but I feel it could be an opportunity for him to come more to the forefront of the squad much in the same way Jon Davies developed very quickly. Once upon a time the idea of JD getting passed the ball to clear from the 22 caused heart rates in Wales to go up, now he is the very useful left foot option to clear the lines Wales will miss (just one small example of the way in which the National side can turn around aspects of play with the right coaching and new roles in a team).

Priestland has been off form but has been overcoming two massive injuries which is tough. Biggar is no better but no worse really. Priestland does a fair amount in defence too which gets overlooked but at the end of the day neither were going to out boss Steyn. Who know what goes in to making an apparently arbitrary decision 😀 I do feel a bit sorry for Biggar though. Flood/ Farrel isn't so wildly different I suppose

The North talk is that he might switch to the centres mid way through the match whereas, as you say Jon, the ideal is perhaps to keep him on the wing but be used more infield during attacking play. The number of big backs is decreasing with injury so making the most of smart players like Beck and Hook to actually use the few remaining big, strong running backs isn't too illogical, just unlikely to happen 😕

North would be harder to mark if he was coming in on broken phase,rather than lining up at centre every play. (Not that marking someone that size and speed can really be defined as easy)He was under used on Sat,certainly bearing in mind how much damage he is capable of.

Completely agree Duckman!

Who know what goes in to making an apparently arbitrary decision

Hmmm,

- The player who steered the team through the most recent championship win? Whose main fault currently is that his regional team aren't playing particularly well but even when played out of position at 15 managed to look classy?

- Or the obviously talented player who is totally lacking confidence, playing time and fitness?

It's not at all arbitrary to me, but then thankfully I don't have to make these decisions! 😆

edit: Biggar's played 18 caps, lost 7. Priestland has 23, lost 12. It doesn't prove anything of course, just an interesting stat. 😛

North would be harder to mark if he was coming in on broken phase,rather than lining up at centre every play. (Not that marking someone that size and speed can really be defined as easy)He was under used on Sat,certainly bearing in mind how much damage he is capable of.

I have only really seen him against England so I dunno if mine is a fair assessment, but he was vaunted as the new awesome centre and has so far failed to deliver as much as expected, he has not scored against us in recent memory, if at all?. Or to put it another way, he is not as intimidating as he was made out to be, he just seems to be a battering ram. If Shane got the ball I used to hide behind the sofa. Perhaps North still has time to come. (Bet he scores the effen winning try against us in the 6N now)

Toys he's a three test lions tour and grand slam winning WINGER age 21 who has scored about 14 tries in 35 tests. But he has failed to deliver cause he hasnt scored against england! Priceless.

As usual you failed to read anything anyone says and just let your prejudice get in the way. Of course nobody can make a comment about a welsh player unless they are either agreeing with you, welsh, or just you.

I clearly framed my statement with:

I have only really seen him against England so I dunno if mine is a fair assessment

I'm only interested in him if he is a threat to us, so far not.

Compare him with Chris Ashton, who has scored at least twice against Wales, has scored 85 international points in union, 12 international points in league, jointly holds the six nations record for tries in a single tournament (with Shane I think?) and is, by your assessment, crap.

I had faith in Ashton up until about a year ago, I don't think he is that great, nor has he delivered as expected, in fact I hold him in the same regard as North, both been bigged up by their nation and failed to deliver. It does not take any of your fabulous "rugby knowledge" to say that, just a quick google of the facts.

You are such a schoolyard bully. I was trying to join in the conversation and all you can do is shoot people down.You wonder why people get pissed off with you. Go and boil your head.

Common issue; New player with "unique" or "exceptional" skills falls into the international scene, makes unprecedented performances within the first few games, then appears to diminish.

2 things - form and excitement, and the other teams work them out and how to play against them - aka nullified to a degree.

Christ Toys you really need to grow and look at what your saying. Remind me what other 21 yearolds have 35 caps including 3 lions caps and have scored almost a try every other game. Your analysis is like something a 14 year old would come out with. If you want to debate rugby on a rugby thread maybe you should say something sensible rather than come out with the same old jingoistic clap trap. There's many things wrong with welsh rugby but North failing to deliver isnt one of them.

There's F All wrong with North. He's an exceptional player, but like all wingers relies massively on being given opportunities by his team mates so that he can properly utilise his frankly remarkable skill with the ball in hand. Actually a lot of outside centres rely on much the same service, you can see when Manu (who has a similarly exceptional talent) plays well, he's been given the chances.
When either has a quiet game, it's usually not them you need to point the finger at.

We need one of the much maligned refs to help with your two:

"ROLL AWAY"

Your schoolboy metaphor just reinforces the fact that you are a bit of a bully. I don't claim to be an expert, but I want to to join in. Your common response to anyone who doesn't meet your mark really surprises me considering your role as an educator. I pity those kids.

There's F All wrong with North. He's an exceptional player, but like all wingers relies massively on being given opportunities by his team mates so that he can properly utilise his frankly remarkable skill with the ball in hand. Actually a lot of outside centres rely on much the same service, you can see when Manu (who has a similarly exceptional talent) plays well, he's been given the chances.
When either has a quiet game, it's usually not them you need to point the finger at.

Wrecker, this is the kind of response that is informative and interesting, cheers. Would you apply the same analysis to Ashton?

Or maybe you just dont like your idiot comments being questioned are you really that insecure. Would you just prefer me to agree that one of the top wingers in the world who is just 21 and has recently starred in a lions series win hasnt delivered as he hasnt scored against england. Your a joke.

No I would prefer you pointed out what I was missing with out being a supercilious and nasty.

For example, you could have responded to my initial comment about north with something like:

" Ah well toys in games that you admit you have not seen he has done remarkably well, in fact he has scored x tries in y games, but you might imagine he has done well as he has not been fed great ball in the game you watched."

to which I might have replied. "Oh I see".

But instead you just behave like unless everyone who is english thinks like you then he is a scumbag..

Here he is not delivering

Toys he's a three test lions tour and grand slam winning WINGER age 21 who has scored about 14 tries in 35 tests. But he has failed to deliver cause he hasnt scored against england! Priceless.

is this nasty? Bless, I do apologise.

Apology accepted. Thanks.

Wrecker, this is the kind of response that is informative and interesting, cheers. Would you apply the same analysis to Ashton?

My personal opinion is that Ashton has a very good instinct, but it's being coached out of him. He used to be so good at coming in off the wing and taking the ball at pace and running a good angle. We haven't seen him do that recently. I also think he's mentally fickle, by that I mean that he seems to struggle to focus and if his head isn't right then he's...well....shit! I honestly think he'd benefit from some sports psychology like Murray did.

Coached out of him? Like they are teaching him to do something else?
He does seem mentally fragile, I know what you mean.

Ashton is a good finisher, very good but he doesnt appear able to tackle. He has what looks like the league habit of going high and waiting for help. Its common in league as offload prevention is vital. It reminds me of Iestyn Harris playing for Wales, compare how he tackles with someone like 1/2p who goes very low. Shane used to do the same as Ashton but he had the advantage of good positioning which Ashton doesnt have which makes it worse.

Coached out of him? Like they are teaching him to do something else?

Hmm I see. I noticed that Farrel puts in lot of higher tackles too, but I wonder if this is not due to something else.

Wrecker, I understand now. Like they have been working hard on unionising him that they might have killed the good parts that came from league.
Hmm I shall give him another chance. (although I have little hope for sat)

Oh and attack wise he worked well off Flood who isnt being picked at the moment.

...I think you know my opinion of Farrell by now....

Yer, as well as me not having faith in him, I find his temper unforgivable, last year he did some really petty stuff.

Who is coming through to replace Farrel? (as if that would ever happen anyway with Dad on the coaching squad..) I liked the look of Burns last time I saw him play.

Farrel is a decent player. Biggar was an insufferable **** at that age too.

Do you think he can guide us through to the WC? What about Ford is he any good? I dunno, when I see Carter it just kinda blows your mind the plays he makes, I'm not sure Farrel can even approach that kind of rugby brain.

I respect AF engough to think that there's no nepotism. As for the next 10, who knows? It's not looking like Ford is going to be any good so it has to be Burns. I suspect that Burns could be a very good player, but he's behind a poor pack at Glaws at the minute, so may struggle to win the shirt.

I think out of Flood, Farrel, Priestland and Biggar the two not getting picked are the better players.

Despite me moaning about Farrel he does seem to stop people on way or another, I remember Burns missing a few tackles.

Thats a trap for me AA as I have no idea who Wales have picked, is it Biggar? I don't like Priestland, so he must be good.

edit-wrong. They picked Priestland. Have they named the team for Argentina yet?

Delayed naming the team to see if Liam Williamz head clears AFAIK.

Biggar was an insufferable **** at that age too

😀 True! But strangely it disappeared almost at once between seasons a year or two back. Someone must of sat him down and had a good word 🙂

Watching the NZ France game and comparing to the other matches going on at the same time it is quite obvious how well the NZ 1-15 can read a game and pick the best option on instinct. Quite a contrast to the Welsh insistent "earn the right to go wide" even when an overlap might be on and the English coaching out of playing on instinct as others have referred to with Ashton etc...

Farrel isn't shit, he's just not a 10. He could make a very handy 12, but I don't think he'll ever have the nous required for a great 10.

a_a arguing again, who'd have thunk it 🙂

10 situation is pretty depressing for England (and those Welshists too!) Farrell is probably the safest bet of an average bunch. Ford...no way. He is so inconsistent that it's unreal. Burns...hard to say, he reminds me of Hook and Cips-just as likely to throw an opposition winger the ball in his own 22 as he is to do anything useful.

Bring back St Johnny I say. Otherwise stick Flood at 10 and Farrell at 12 and see how that works out. Afterall that is where Farrell starts for Sarries when little Charlie is fit.

As for Wales, who knows....maybe Henson is the answer 🙂

To be fair to both Wales and England, the 10 shirt were big ones to fill. I'd be going Flood at 10 with a mind to bring Burns game on and Farrell sharing 12 duties with Burrell. I'm convinced that Biggar is better than Priestland but admittedly I've not seen them play much club rugby.

If you like we'll swap you Matt Morgan for one of your locks. He'll give you some attacking threat from outside half.

No idea why he isnt being played on the wing..... Reminds me of someone!!

Well, when Flood goes to France next year (there no point hanging around playing second fiddle to Farrell, so he'll be off to play for a fortune) and Leicester get Burns as per the rumours, then I think well see a pretty damn good player.
Until then, he'll be a speed bump for teams with real forwards!

Reminds me of someone!!

That was an awesome try by the way.

Matthew Morgan is tiny, when I saw him a few times last season he looks like a kid from school has scampered on. A bit like Arwel he is the wrong size at the wrong time, 30 years ago he would be touted as another Welsh wizzard at 10, these days he is just going to get smashed.

My MIL refers to Shane as that lovely little lad, but I've stood next to him in the street and he isn't that tiny (compared to my 1670mm), it's just every one else on the field is massive. He was very successful in the modern era.

On the other hand I thought O'Gara was kinda failed by his size in recent years. I remember 2009 or 10 in the 6N when I think it was Richie Gray just ran through him.

Morgan 5ft 8
Shane 5ft 7
Ronan 6ft (suprising)
Farrel 6ft 2
Carter 5ft 10 (also suprising)
Flood 6ft 2

Gray's "wee" brother is in with a chance of playing on Sat. 🙂

Ok a serious bit;
I started teaching in 2003 and being 34 I decided to step back from playing for a club that involved weight sessions/video analysis etc. My school club had folded so I ended up playing for a team in St Andrews. They were largely composed of farmers and as such struggled to get teams out in August. Never an issue as soon as the harvest was in,but the SRU docked points at the drop of a hat. The club pres had made me feel very welcome and the whole club had a family,friendly social vibe that was as good as anything I encountered in the 5 or six clubs I played for.
One August the weather was good so there were about six call off on Sat am for a bus trip to Langholm down in the borders. The 56yo Pres turns up with kit and the plan of playing for 10mins and then going down, thus avoiding any problems from the SRU. He played the whole game in the second row in a National 3 league match...Fast forward 2.5 years and I am sitting with him as he tries to pick up a straw,eventually telling me with a wry smile that is was too heavy. 😕 Motor Neurone Disease

I was thinking of him as I read of another player this morning who is fighting this hideous condition. From today's Times.

Meeting Joost van der Westhuizen is distressing, even though you do your damnedest to show otherwise. He offers a hand though he cannot shake yours or even grip it. He is strapped into his wheelchair to prevent him falling forwards.

He wants to tell you about his life. Actually, what he really wants is to tell you how he can help other lives. But motor neuron disease (MND) has afflicted him so badly that he struggles to enunciate. This is a 25-minute interview and at the end he is tired of having to overcome a heavy slur to produce words that are comprehensible.

Yet still he wants to explain exactly what has happened to him.

“With MND, all the signals from your brain to your muscles break down,” he says. “That means you lose the function of your muscle. The way I speak is because my tongue is a muscle.”

As the motor neurones gradually break down, he explains further, you become increasingly disabled: “Every month you have to adapt. In my case, it started in the upper body so I can’t use my arms any more and I walk assisted. So it is very difficult.”

And all the time, his brain is operating perfectly and dealing with the frustration of his situation and the reality of his future.

When the illness was diagnosed in May 2011, Van der Westhuizen was 40. He was given the horrible truth: he had a 20 per cent chance of living another five years, but he may not make it to Christmas. “It is a death sentence,” he says. “Though there is no time to worry about death.”

This is a man transformed, and not just physically so. A decade ago, he wrapped up a playing career so great that he finished with more caps and more tries than any Springbok before him. He was part of the great Nelson Mandela team that won the World Cup in 1995; he is still asked about that day and how he, the scrum half, was the one who tackled Jonah Lomu. He was phenomenally strong and rumbustious for a No ?9. And handsome with it. MND has no respect for the mighty.

He was somewhat taciturn in those days, too, cool behind his Afrikaner reserve. Even after rugby, his life remained in the newspapers, first via a rock-star marriage, then a lurid adultery scandal and a marriage breakdown.

Yet sitting in his wheelchair, struggling to produce the words, he seems to have a veritable warmth. “I am humbled by the disease,” he says. “I know now what life is all about.”

His story with MND began really as far back as 2008. That was when he noticed weakness in his right arm. He believed it was an old rugby injury. His friend, a doctor, was the one who eventually noticed the weakness too and insisted he have it checked out.

No research has yet identified the exact causes of MND; there is no suggestion that it is related to contact sport. Van der Westhuizen, nevertheless, was stuck with it. When the news is delivered, he says, “it is very emotional”. He was offered counselling to deal with the situation but politely declined.

“It was my choice not to have it,” he says. “Every person is different. Because of my rugby background, I handled it myself. I am mentally strong and my life has always been choosing to be positive.”

The toughest part was his children. “That was very difficult,” he says. “Back then they were only 5 and 7, and to realise that you won’t be able to see them grow up or be there for them is tough.” Initially he told them nothing. As he says: “What does a kid of 5 know?”

Pretty much immediately, though, he resolved to define the remainder of his life by his fight against the disease.

So while Van der Westhuizen is here in the UK to see the Springboks’ autumn tour, his real mission is to strike in the midst of the international rugby season to raise money.

He flies today to Edinburgh, where a fundraiser has been organised by Scott Hastings. He was in Wales last week, where he was able to see South Africa win at the Millennium Stadium, but really so that he could attend another fundraising dinner. He says that Rob Howley, an old foe, had helped to organise the dinner, which he clearly relished.

“Everyone was there,” he says. “Rob Jones, Rob Howley. I saw Neil Jenkins and we had a good laugh — a laugh about all the fun we had, the on-field banter, everything.”

For all of his 89 caps and vast accomplishments as a player, he was still thrilled that his old hero from his own schooldays was also able to attend: Gareth Edwards.

He likes talking about friends and old adversaries. He likes talking also about his old Springbok team-mates with whom he is in close contact. “Especially the ’95 guys,” he says. “Whenever I ask them for help, they are always there.”

His real passion now, though, is the J9 Foundation. He explains: “The moment I experienced difficulty, I realised what other families must go through and that’s when I decided to set up the foundation. Seventy per cent of MND sufferers are male and they are often the bread-winners in the family too. I know what sufferers are going through and I know what they need. For me it is not about the money alone; it is about the time we give to help others.”

The dinners and the fundraisers, he says, are directed specifically at helping families dealing with MND: “We now have 34 families we are looking after, I want 40 by the end of the year and next year we will go to 50.”

Each family is helped financially and given bespoke assistance to meet their particular needs in terms of healthcare and counselling. Van der Westhuizen visits all of them. They all have a direct phone line through to him.

One of Van der Westhuizen’s goals is to open a research centre in South Africa. He has had early discussions with leading universities. “We are busy putting figures together to see what we need,” he says.

This is hard work; although the mind works as fast as ever, the body is tired and needs rests. Yet tackling his disease this way has clearly given him a purpose. “I travel a lot by choice,” he says. “It keeps me busy and happy and I need to find a cure.”

His domestic life has also found a peaceful settlement. He lives now almost next door to his wife and their children and, when home, is round for dinner most nights. They have prepared a bedroom for him in what used to be the study. At the start of the year, he gave his children a full explanation of his illness. “Now they ask questions and can understand it better,” he says.

How are they handling it? “Difficult to say. They hug me a lot. They phone a lot. They spend time with me more. They realise what is going on.” And how is he handling it? “Now I have made peace with it,” he says. “I am still alive.”

[b]Read more about the J9 Foundation on www.joost.co.za. The Foundation has an SMS donation line; to donate £5, text JOOST to 60999.[/b]

Worth a fiver; Stuart

"wee" Gray is supposed to be the better of the two as well, although Sale fans may not think much of that 🙂

Thanks for the Joost link, will be donating.

MY stepmum does a fair bit of work for the UK based MND charity.
http://www.mndassociation.org/get-involved/donations

Tom B - Member

10 situation is pretty depressing for England (and those Welshists too!)

As for Wales, who knows....maybe Henson is the answer

You know I don't think Wales have too much to worry about for a few years. Biggar is what, 22? Priestland is 26ish? (So actually rather old to continually be thought of as a work-in-progress!)

But coming through we have players like Sam Davies, etc. There's plenty of talent around, it'll be interesting to see if they develop enough.

toys19 - Member

My MIL refers to Shane as that lovely little lad, but I've stood next to him in the street and he isn't that tiny (compared to my 1670mm), it's just every one else on the field is massive.

He IS tiny, it's just you are a midget! 😉

Living around here I see loads of rugby players and very few of them look huge. Alan Wyn Jones (coming out of Morrisons a few years ago on crutches..) didn't look as big as I'd have thought. But Justin Marshal (changing in the gym next to me) was considerably taller than me - I'm 5ft10" - and very polite. Nice guy but very aware that HE was the superstar! But I was surprised how tall he was.

The BBC interview with Joost van der Westhuizen.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24890861

IdleJon, yer I know, my point was that it's dangerous to assume that because Morgan is small (not as small as Shane) that he will not make the cut. I am sure it will make it harder for him, but you never know..

Patchel could be the next big thing at ten for wales.

Yep, a_a. I was trying to remember his name... He looks good already. Pity he's playing at the underperforming Blues.

J Gray,despite being 19 is 6"6" and 18 stone 9lbs 😯 God save us from that food bill! The chat is that he is a better player as he has had to work harder,including a year in NZ.