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**think i might have missread ** its only £0 fee moving to £20 ****
just read that from 1st april 2025 vehicle tax will change, my current run around is £20 a year, looks like its soon gonna be £190 , how much truth to this, i see source is GB news
British Drivers Could Pay £600 More per Year Amid Major Car Tax Changes (msn.com)
"At the moment, the standard rate for 2024 is £190, though this might change in April 2025 depending on inflation.
Zero-emission cars registered between March 1, 2001, and March 31, 2017, will move into the first VED band with a fee, currently set at £20, though this may increase next year."
finally, i see on the government website i can cancel tax / SORN my vehicle. then UnSorn my vehicle by rebuying Tax, you think its an option to SORN late march then rebuy £20 car tax next day ?
Isn't this all speculation and scare-mongering at the minute?
Loads of stories doing the rounds about pay-per-mile being introduced too.
think it's going to £190.. My EVs are going from zero to £190. Which is annoying..
DrP
important to remember this was announced under the previous government nearly 18months ago.
Must suck to be going from 0-190 - but something has to pay for all the missed fuel tax revenue.
my cars going from 0-20 but still uses fossil fuel
About time the big heavy, overpowered and over-tyred EVs start paying their way towards the road damage they're almost certainly causing.
18months ago.
Must suck to be going from 0-190
Even my van accelerates faster than that! It's topped out way before 190 mind
Away from home charging, diesel is also cheaper on fuel.
while that maybe so- it’s going into PE pockets not the gov. The gov wants their slice of pie back
Out of my two colleagues, one has an ev that is moving from 0 to 190. One has a diesel estate that is staying at 35
My ev is moving from 0 to 20 as it’s really old and I’m not sure what my hybrid is doing - I think staying at zero
Its all total nonsense anyway - the sooner we realise that all cars are basically bad for the environment no matter what they run on and just tax by miles driven the better.
@winston True, but anything at the moment about pay-per-mile is RW scaremongering without any basis in fact.
It probably is inevitable but the big difficulty is how do we apply it to discourage short urban car journeys?
Also: VED not tax.
And yet the government service refers to tax not VED
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-exempt-from-vehicle-tax
I guess you charge people more per mile in urban areas or for short journeys in general
Problem is a policy like this has to go hand in hand with a boost in active travel funding so people actually have an alternative - but we all know this simply won’t happen and it will just result in the people who can least afford it paying more.
my diesel 7 seater is staying at £20. Interesting that most newer vehicles are paying 10x as much
whats the difference between duty and tax ?
or is this one of those things where heckles have been raised about cyclists not paying "road"tax and using VED as the alternative naming and now we are getting in a twist about the tax part when in fact it was the implications that it was a tax on the road ?
but anything at the moment about pay-per-mile is RW scaremongering
It's probematic as it would add an admin overhead.. they could just abolish VED alltogether and add the tax onto fuel at point of sale, but that wouldn't work for home charging EV's...
..So I suspect they will just adjust the current bands to include EVs, path of least resistance innit as the system is already in place.
you could run pay-per-mile on EVs as part of the MOT procedure - I imagine most can't be clocked these days. Be a bit of an eye opener if you bought one with 1 months MOT left which had been used as a taxi for the past year though 🙂
Pay per mile just hammers rural dwellers who have no choice to travel further for work, schools, health, goods and services, and provides no disincentive to urban dwellers. Most rural bus services are now dire and often non-existent, and active travel generally prioritises urban areas not between dispersed settlements.
And no we can't all move to the towns and cities and vacate the countryside, there's not enough housing as it is.
Whereas VED doesn’t cover a fraction of the social cost of car ownership and penalises those who try to act responsibly and drive less miles. It disincentivises use of other forms of transport which in turn helps their decline.
About time the big heavy, overpowered and over-tyred EVs start paying their way towards the road damage they’re almost certainly causing.
How heavy do you think they are? Not a patch compared to HGVs!
The naming thing is historic, stuff originally collected by Customs and Excise is often called duty. But Customs and Excise got rolled into Inland Revenue to form Revenue and Customs. This may have been to do with Customs and Excise being shambolic and naughty.
More use specific taxes tend to be branded duty eg booze tax, airport tax, insurance premium tax, arse scratching stick tax and so on. None of them are hypothecated, that is the money is earmarked for a specific use, so tax is an appropriate way to describe them whatever the branding.
Of course the specific taxes can be adjusted to achieve specific social objectives more easily than the more general ones, for example public health the environment etc, with a dose of wealth redistribution thrown in if you wish.
If it looks like a tax and quacks like a tax...
Pay per mile just hammers rural dwellers who have no choice to travel further for work, schools, health, goods and services, and provides no disincentive to urban dwellers. Most rural bus services are now dire and often non-existent, and active travel generally prioritises urban areas not between dispersed settlements.
I have no clue what the 'correct' solution to all this is, but fwiw when I think 'I wish people drove less' I'm not thinking of the people you're describing above. I'm thinking of the twerps driving gigantic range rovers from their house at one end of town to the shops in the middle of town on a bright sunny day when you could just walk across the common, and then having the sheer brass to complain about having to maybe possibly pay for parking.
Utter losers.
Be interested to know how they'd bring in road pricing/pay by mile as I'm pretty sure odometers* are even more easily tricked than they used to be & to tax after the event would be tricky.
If weight was a factor of ved then my motorbikes should be weigh cheaper per annum...
* Dodgy sensor means one of my bikes speedo & odometer rarely works.
we all know how well smart metres in houses have been, bring in a smart metre for cars ??
its not a anti cyclist 'don't pay road tax' discussion'
i clearly stated "Vehicle Tax" in the header :0)
Be interested to know how they’d bring in road pricing/pay by mile as I’m pretty sure odometers* are even more easily tricked than they used to be & to tax after the event would be tricky.
I think both could be wrapped into your MOT. Want to drive the car another year? Its £50 for the inspection and 2p per mile you've covered since the last check. Would raise broadly the same amount (assuming an average milage of 10k miles) as today.
sure, when the car gets binned you lose the last year's income (as no MOT on being scrapped), and you could maybe clock the thing, but tbh there's much more money to be made in improved residuals (which could be ~£10k more on a low milage car vs a high milage car at 5 years old), than there is in dodging £200/year in tax - I suspect anyone who wants to clock their cars is already doing it (and in the extreme minority, like red diesel users)
About time the big heavy, overpowered and over-tyred EVs start paying their way towards the road damage they’re almost certainly causing.
Which would be great if they were heavier than all other cars and if VED paid for roads.
whatyadoinsucka
Free Member
we all know how well smart metres in houses have been, bring in a smart metre for cars ??
its not a anti cyclist ‘don’t pay road tax’ discussion’
i clearly stated “Vehicle Tax” in the header :0)
True.. That's why I think the only practical way would be to integrate EVs into the current VED/tax model in a fair and balanced way.
EVs are only going to get more popular so to not charge them anything will leave a huge black hole in tax revenue that would have to be clawed back by some other means of general taxation... Which would then penalize everyone, including people who may not even own a car.. so that would cause an uproar, and round and round we go.
whats the difference between duty and tax ?
Duty is generally a fixed amount, whereas tax is generally a percentage.
Duty is generally a fixed amount, whereas tax is generally a percentage.
It's basically just semantics for the purpose of this discussion I think..
I think both could be wrapped into your MOT. Want to drive the car another year? Its £50 for the inspection and 2p per mile you’ve covered since the last check. Would raise broadly the same amount (assuming an average milage of 10k miles) as today.
google milage correction services.
not many cars they cant do.
Blackbox technology would have to improve somewhat also for that to be viable.
Duty is generally a fixed amount, whereas tax is generally a percentage.
so it really is
one of those things where heckles have been raised about cyclists not paying “road”tax and using VED as the alternative naming and now we are getting in a twist about the tax part when in fact it was the implications that it was a tax on the road ?
you could run pay-per-mile on EVs as part of the MOT procedure – I imagine most can’t be clocked these days.
If you google "mileage correction service" you get a remarkable number of businesses for what should be a pretty rare need. A cynic might connect the number of companies and the boom in lease/pcp deals which apply hefty penalties if you go over the x miles per year.
It probably is inevitable but the big difficulty is how do we apply it to discourage short urban car journeys?
Very easily if it's done by a properly tracked pay per mile system. Just have a minimum charge per journey.
If you google “mileage correction service” you get a remarkable number of businesses for what should be a pretty rare need. A cynic might connect the number of companies and the boom in lease/pcp deals which apply hefty penalties if you go over the x miles per year.
they can often update the display but for most cars the true milage is a quick pull on the odbc port away. Sure thats a bit more work for the MOT chap, but any of these options would be.
they can often update the display but for most cars the true milage is a quick pull on the odbc port away.
Not seen the Orly meme for a while but I feel it's apt here
Yeah there would be too many hacks for that... From hacking the ECU itself to simply disconnecting sensors or fitting sensors that under read /miss report to the ECU etc..
It would never work and would be a recipe for disaster.
Not only that I have 4 different mfg knock off dealer level diagnostics and all have the milage in a different ECU and this needs different tools and skills required to find the milage.
Your multi mfg OBD2 protocol reader won't be seeing your milage -i have 5 or 6 of those also from over the years and cars
And given the mots in ability to see a deleted emissions control.....I don't hold out much hope on your dream.
And add to that 2 of my current cars don't even have OBD2
Is this for new cars or applied retrospectively to older vehicles? I was always under the impression taxes were fixed for given years. Same model of my car is in different tax bracket for different years despite being identical in build and emissions output.
Pay-per-mile is the correct way to go for EVs imo, which is already applied to fossil fuel vehicles to a degree.
Which would be great if they were heavier than all other cars
Nobody said they were. They are heavier than an IC equivalent though.
was always under the impression taxes were fixed for given years
Being applied retrospectivly in many cases complete abolishment of the 0 rated bracket.
My car's a December 2016 model and is free to tax (going up to 20 quid) An april 2017 model of the same car with the same engine in the same trim is 190 quid a year ...
Is this for new cars or applied retrospectively to older vehicles?
Generally these sorts of rule are not retrospective in order to avoid penalizing people who already own 'the car', but we've not seen the autumn budget yet, so it's all a bit of conjecture.
but we’ve not seen the autumn budget yet, so it’s all a bit of conjecture.
How so ? It's been planned for April 25 for at least 18 months.
What has been left wide open is room for it to increase by more in the 2024 budget.
From 1 April 2025, drivers of electric and low emission cars, vans and motorcycles will need to pay vehicle tax in the same way as drivers of petrol and diesel vehicles. This change will apply to both new and existing vehicles.
What is the definition of a low emission vehicle? It sounds like this differentiates them from petrol and diesel vehicles. I'm a bit confused.
It also says changes are coming in 2024. It's almost the end of 2024 now. I'm still paying £0. When exactly?
I'm only commenting because I literally just bought a car in the zero tax bracket and was feeling smug. Will be gutted if they make me pay £20.
I’m still paying £0. When exactly?
From the link I posted. You'll pay from April 2025 when the low emissions class will cease to exist.
OK, I've read it properly now. It says it will move to the first band. I was thinking £0 was the first band but evidently not.
they can often update the display but for most cars the true milage is a quick pull on the odbc port away.
Uh huh. Just pop into Halfords and look at the steering wheel locks section to understand just how competent the manufacturers are at producing secure hardware/software combos.
It’s retrospective. It’s not conjecture. Just look on the gov website.
Those who think EVs are causing additional damage to roads do not understand what an ESAL is. It is HGVs which damage roads.
https://www.tensar.co.uk/resources/articles/what-is-an-esal
My parents’ electricity bill (not in the UK) comes with itemisation which shows exactly how much electricity they’ve used to charge their (plug-in hybrid) car each month. My father believes that system will eventually be used to levy fuel duty on EV drivers. That seems to suggest the EV fuel duty problem is one that actually has technical solutions.
Personally I’d go with a road charging system combining in-car GPS telemetry phone-home with ANPR validation; surge pricing would be an invaluable tool in addressing pollution events and hotspots, and congestion problems. Most antisocial driving could be abolished almost immediately.
My parents’ electricity bill (not in the UK) comes with itemisation which shows exactly how much electricity they’ve used to charge their (plug-in hybrid) car each month.
I could well imagine some nations are more forward thinking on these things. I suspect once half the country has devised various solutions for charging their vehicles without proper infrastructure for it, then it will be difficult to change.
I also find it hard to believe we can't produce cars capable of supporting a pay-per-mile road pricing system when we've been doing the same with electric and gas meters since the beginning of time.
I also find it hard to believe we can’t produce cars capable of supporting a pay-per-mile road pricing system when we’ve been doing the same with electric and gas meters since the beginning of time.
In theory its doable but in practice its really, really hard. You would need to get all the car manufacturers to build in a proper secure write only area and even then it would be basically impossible to really make it read correctly. Depending how old you are you might remember needing to carefully set a cycle computer based on the wheel/tyre size?
Not sure about gas but electricity meters can and are bypassed. A quick google says about 25k cases in the UK a year which are discovered. Some of those are going to be drug farms but with the increase in bills its suggested a growing number of people are doing it. I suspect the drop in manual reading also wont help. Having someone come round makes it harder to hide the bypass.
How would you charge MOT based pay per mile for new cars that don't need an MOT for the first 3 years?
Not sure about gas but electricity meters can and are bypassed. A quick google says about 25k cases in the UK a year which are discovered.
There are always going to be people who fiddle the system. The number of untaxed cars on the road now is massive. If you make it difficult enough, and the penalties high enough, the vast majority will adhere, quite possibly more than they do now. Forgetting to tax your car is a fairly simple mistake anyone can make. Tampering with recording equipment is not, and easier to deter imo.
Zero VED is being removed for electric motorcycles. E-scooters are classed as motor vehicles, therefore will soon be subject to VED- surely the revenue potential will begin to pave the way for privately owned e-scooters to be allowed on the roads? And if they do this, by extension, e-bikes as well?
Forgetting to tax your car is a fairly simple mistake anyone can make. Tampering with recording equipment is not, and easier to deter imo.
Vehicle based Blockers for black boxes already exist
Vehicle based Blockers for black boxes already exist
That's very easily dealt with by the government with ANPR. After a limited number of discrepancies you end up with a large fine or ban.
How would you charge MOT based pay per mile for new cars that don’t need an MOT for the first 3 years?
Charge it at the end of 3 years? If you're buying something 2.5 years old the value drops accordingly, or it has to be motd every sale. Plenty of ways to make it work
One thing not covered here is the "expensive car tax". Evs are exempt right now, but for cars registered after April 2025 you'll have to pay it.
Means ved will be ,~ £500 for the first 5 year if your EV cost more than £40k
Tesla dealers are going to be busy in march 25...
Means ved will be ,~ £500 for the first 5 year if your EV cost more than £40k
This returns to the system under a previous chancellor when the tax for expensive cars in at least their first year was £450. Later years were £0 for my Model S.
Compared to the price of a car and fuel costs VED is not a big cost. I’m unsure that it’s really a big factor in vehicle choice for many.
There’s already a pay-per-mile bunch of taxes in the form of fuel duties and VAT on fuel. The easiest route to raising revenue would be to increase these. No extra tech needed. Petrol and diesel are clearly too cheap given the amount of driving done and the number of folks sat with their engines idling while parked up. Sure, it’ll be an uncomfortable increase but doable compared with black boxes ANPR tracking etc which will cost money and, ans folks have described, increase the cost of motoring anyway.