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This morning on BBC breakfast news they were interviewing Mark Harper - Transport Secretary.
He was explaining with the straightest face I've seen for a while, the proposals for trying to make life easier for drivers. He wants to abolish the 20 mph limits (we have one through our small town) except for school areas. He doesn't want to see in England what's happened in Wales.
Aaaarrrgghhh.
It's all over the Scottish borders. It just means folk drive at 25-30.
What do we want, safer communities,
when do we want it, only when it doesn't affect our perceived freedom to drive fast because we can't leave 5 minutes earlier
I must have misheard the really poor interview then, I thought he had said he wouldn't reverse the existing 20s but they wouldn't be pushing for any sort of blanket 20 zones. With the dire interview skills of Charlie Stayt, the time delay and a tory minister on the end of said time delay....it was poor to say the least.
We recently went 'cycle touring' through Northern France. Mostly along the coast and in rural areas. The French drivers were considerate in the main and took time and space to overtake us. But what really stood out was that many were driving quite small cars eg Renault Clio.
We got back home and I was reminded how ridiculously large most of our cars are. The drivers aren't always considerate and don't make an effort to overtake safely let alone with 1.5 metres.
Our own small town is up in arms as the council plans to (hopefully) make it more cycle and pedestrian friendly. The animosity against cyclists has been sickening.
Brussels has been 30kph (about 20mph) for a year or 2 now and we were just noting yesterday not only how much nicer to ride in but how much nicer to drive in it was. We can't even imagine how horrible it was to ride in 50kph traffic and that's only 32mphish.
Netherlands has 20 mph limit in urban areas as default. Also in 20 mph limits pedestrians and cyclists have priority over cars. Limits only go higher if there is a decent segregation of cars and bikes. No room for a segregated cycle lane? 20mph with pedestrian and cycle priority
The French drivers were considerate in the main and took time and space to overtake us.
Whereas just on this mornings quick 10 mile loop I had 3 dangerous passes - two right before blind corners and one into an oncoming car.
Never understood why rural roads where pedestrians have to walk in the carriageway are NSL.
Surely if there's no pavement it should automatically mean 20mph
Kerley - You'll never get everyone to comply with the Highway code or be considerate. There will always be one dangerous 'cockwomble' in any country.
what really stood out was that many were driving quite small cars eg Renault Clio.
We got back home and I was reminded how ridiculously large most of our cars are.
Yup, noticed this too. Sweeping generalisation is sweeping but... Europeans seem to see cars more as an appliance, Brits see them more as a status symbol.
I saw the interview - he very much did not say that any existing 20mph zones would be removed or that local authorities could not implement new 20mph zones where "sensible to do so". Basically it's an announcement of nothing to create an impression Tories are pro-motorist (another meaningless phrase)and to create an opportunity to say look at Wales - Labour did that. Just fodder for Mail and Express
Sounded like another 7 bin announcement to me. They are banning (future?) blanket 20 mph bans. Mark Harper seemed to be pushing this idea that all 30mph limits in Wales are now 20mph
We got back home and I was reminded how ridiculously large most of our cars are.
That's because most people don't realise they're probably almost as equally American as they are English*. American culture saturates our land through the media and corporations and business culture. It sets our aspirations. Whereas the French... will always be French!
If you want a big car go live in a big country, please.
*says the Englishman who's never even Bern to America to experience their culture first hand.
There’s an article in the Guardian today about parents campaigning for safer streets. There’s some demonstrations today in various places, part of a campaign called “safe streets now”. “Brake” is another campaign group worth looking up, formed after the unnecessary death of a woman caused by a lorry going too fast with faulty brakes. I was in charge of first attendance at the scene of that “accident”. Perhaps if graphic images of the death and injuries on our roads were in the papers more instead of sanitised photos from a distance then it might help? Cigarette packets have graphic pictures on them, why not pictures to accompany vehicle adverts?
Anyway, on a positive note, I’ve re-joined Cycling UK and I’m re-joining the local campaign group. Also, going to batter my MP toady Rowley with letters.
North East Derbyshire District Council are introducing Public Place Protection orders as part of an interesting campaign against speeding, dangerous driving and nuisance driving.
Campaigning might help, anything to stop the average of five deaths a day on our roads?
I honestly hope the tories are out. war on motorist shit and talking about cutting taxes whilst services are failing.
20s have been rolled out across our city, the frothing has been ridiculous and now this will just add to the idiots that are refusing to slow down. it'll give them another justification to just ignore it. and it's not like many people are actually doing 20. they are now doing 30ish instead of 40+. so it's slower and nicer but it's not 20.
I truly hope it will be like seatbelts, drink driving, mobile phone use and will just become the norm for most reasonable people.
just saw a guy in a van, on his mobile overtaking in a 20. it's these types that need to be having their licenses taken away. assuming they even have one
rant over
Trouble with the government of the day turning it into a political issue and actively campaigning against it is that it just gives the idiots permission and justification to defy it long after this shower of shite have been thrown out of office.
Sweeping generalisation is sweeping but… Europeans seem to see cars more as an appliance, Brits see them more as a status symbol.
most people don’t realise they’re probably almost as equally American as they are English*. American culture saturates our land through the media and corporations and business culture. It sets our aspirations. Whereas the French… will always be French!
If you want a big car go live in a big country, please.
I think this is quite romantic about our equally car-brained cousins across La Manche. Half of all new cars are SUVs across the EU, and that's pretty much identical to the UK, for example.
https://www.acea.auto/figure/new-passenger-cars-by-segment-in-eu/
Parish council sent a ballot round for our 20mph. Three options, leave at 30, 20 just outside the primary school/shop or 20 everywhere. Overwhelming support for 20 everywhere.
We have one of those smiley face speeds detectors that gets moved around the village. The data from that showed 300 readings over 55mph and the highest was 70. In a village, with narrow/no pavements, primary school and people on bikes, walking, animals etc.
I hadn't realised how much of Manchester side roads are 20, mainly as I cycle to work. Having driven in Wales alot recently, I don't see any issue with 20 in built up areas. If anything, traffic is flowing better.
Surely if there’s no pavement it should automatically mean 20mph
While I'm all for 20mph where appropriate, applying it to all rural roads is just harmful to rural life...
Harmful to rural life in what way? Have to get up five up minutes earlier?
I saw an awful lot of ex 'rural life' squashed on the roadside when I was out on my bike on Monday. A 20mph limit wouldn't be harmful for them.
tbh as a cyclist knowing I'm less likely to be mowed down by a range rover going 60 down a narrow lane would be quite nice. a few close calls where the car had to slam the anchors on and pull in because someone was coming the other way. Once forcing me off the road and into the hedging
It is just another wedge issue for an ever more desperate Government.
Thats interesting politecamera. Certainly my impression was of far less SUVs in both France and Spain
Next they will come for bicycles on bridleways
While I’m all for 20mph where appropriate, applying it to all rural roads is just harmful to rural life…
I agree.
As soon as you get outside of any of the villages around here, you are on B roads, with NSL.
If this was dropped to 20mph getting around would be very slow, I'm not talking about 1 or 2 mile journeys but some 15 - 20 miles.
I'm all for current 30mph limits to be dropped to 20 mph.
I don’t think anyone would sensibly argue that rural roads should be 20s. But equally, the NSL on unclassified roads could be reduced to, say, 40 without causing too many problems as frankly you can’t go much faster than that safely on a lot of them.
(I’m sure there was a consultation a while back that was broadly in favour of this, but like pavement parking got sat on)
I must be in the minority but I find 20 zones much more dangerous for cycling. I'm going along at 15-18mph and a car is creeping past, as soon as their front wheels are past me they start swerving back across, especially if something is coming the other way, meaning I have to brake to not to be flattened. Other times they overtake when I'm on a slight incline then I'm stuck behind constantly braking on the flat/downhill. In 30s the cars go past and are gone and I'm safe being nowhere near them.
I also think cycle lanes can be bad. Drivers make no effort to give you 1.5m space because you are in "your lane" even though a lot are too narrow and you have to swerve out of them to dodge the pot holes. Don't get me started on cycle lanes that are shared with pedestrians then end and you have to filter back onto the road anyway!
DT78
Free MemberI honestly hope the tories are out. war on motorist shit and talking about cutting taxes whilst services are failing.
I don't especially care what the talking points are tbh, it's more that so much of it is just absolute fiction. This is all about spinning the Welsh change into something it isn't, and using that to create a completely false "we are fixing this" message about something that doesn't exist. Like someone else said it's the same as the 7 bins and all the other "we will prevent things that aren't happening".
Grizzly - control the overtakes - ride primary until its safe to let them past. for me the 20 mph zones have meant far less unsafe overtakes as folk seem more patient to sit behind
cycle lanes are often unfit for purpose. I often do not use them or on a road with the painted bit along the edge I still ride 1M minimum from the kerb unless i am crawling uphill
I really don't know what the fuss is about. 20mph around built up areas or outside schools etc is surely the right thing to do? How much extra would it really put on a journey, a minute or two?
most people don’t realise they’re probably almost as equally American as they are English
As someone with an American spouse and consequently large American extended family, and who has spent a lot of time there talking to people in their home environment I can assure you this is absolutely not the case.
The French drivers were considerate in the main and took time and space to overtake us.
Most French drivers are considerate of cyclists and drive ok but the small number of bad drivers in France are truly horrifying. If you've seen the Jean Luc Besson film Taxi - like that. Driving on the absolute limit through traffic or on country roads with foot to the boards and close tolerances. We saw this several times a day when we used to go there in the.90s, I assumed maybe it had softened a bit but I saw a fair few when I went there as an adult.
As I've previously recounted on here - when doing bike hire we regularly had folk from all over Europe taking bikes out for day trips and for longer tours - GGW, NC500, Outer Hebrides and so on. Without any prompting they almost always commented on how considerate UK drivers were compared to their local experiences.
20 MPH zones don't make a jot of difference as the throbbers just ignore it and there's no one to enforce it. See also no parking outside schools etc etc etc.
They do when it's busy as it only takes one person to adhere to it and everyone else is forced to and they can't overtake
Scotroutes - there is a huge difference between the highlands and england on this IME. In the highlands the worst overtakes I got were from German motorcyclists. Riding around in England I found aggressive overtakes common - central scotland somewhere between the two
Oceanskipper - the early data from Wales shows a reduction in speeds and IME in Edinburgh 20 mph limits make a huge difference mainly in that most car drivers are prepared to wait longer before they overtake and in a significant reduction in speeds overall.
I would say here that the majority of drivers are at least paying some attention to the 20 mph limits driving at well below 30 mph. sure the idiots ignore them but the majority have slowed down
@tjagain - I largely agree but you'd think that the NC500 in particular was a death trap going by many of the posts in here. It was more that these cyclists seemed to be experiencing poor driving in their home countries too.
Different sorts of poor driving? In Ireland I got no aggressive overtakes but on a couple of occasions cars tried to pass where they could not see far enough and had to emergency stop before going head on into a car coming the other way - all while leaving me plenty of room.
I can't think of any in France or Spain but I was mainly on cycleways or tiny roads
I did avoid cities tho which would give a different impression I am sure apart from cycling around Amsterdam which is totally unnerving as other cyclists will pass with mm of space and cars can be quite close as well - but not the aggressive deliberate close pass but just they are all used to having less space than I want and am used to!
Fair enough - doesn’t seem like that round where I live but I haven’t seen any data to support my statement. I suspect in busy areas it does make a difference as Molgrips says. Thinking about it I often end up with someone close behind when I slow down for a 20.
Harmful to rural life in what way? Have to get up five up minutes earlier?
There's some rural areas where you could drive for 20 or 30 miles (and more) - restricting blanket to 20mph means a significant increase in time to get between places to commute, get to school, deliver the post etc. I'm of the opinion that in most rural places I visit in Scotland that drivers are aware, make good judgement and polite - and to encourage this culture would be a better approach than more signs and restrictions.
I do agree that there should be some more cautious speed limits than a binary 20mph and NSL.
Rural NSL is for the driver to decide what is safe I think, as it would cost a fortune to review everywhere. And nearly impossible to enforce.
Drove 15 miles to town on the lanes yesterday. No pavement, all NSL, so you could drive like a rally stage at 60 everywhere, but you don't. Came round a bend on the way back and me and a tractor/trailer had to emergency stop, but I was doing less than 20mph anyway. Idiot 20-something me would have been going quicker and probably had a head on.
I’m all for blanket 20mph in residential areas
Dont forget that London ULEZ extension is being done by Labour, which the public don’t appear to be happy with. That encourages safer cars = safer roads
Don’t forget that Wales is a Labour government too, and many don’t appear happy with their 20mph.
so we have a Labour people trying to make roads safer/cleaner but the public don’t appear to want that. This isn’t just people who would vote conservative, its people who would have voted Labour too
So we have Labour voters who will now not vote Labour, and conservative MP’s actually being more clever than Starmer who just normally says the direct opposite to the conservatives with no direction as to what he would do differently
I wonder if an approach to road safety might be to remind drivers that people on bikes, pedestrians and other road users are people with family's and people who will miss them.
It's too easy for drivers other road users as the enemy. Cyclists have been dehumanised by all the click bait headlines maybe its time to change this perception.
@FunkyDunc a vocal minority on SoMe =/= the public though.
When folk are polled on this the majority are in favour of 20 mph and LTZs
Bruce - Edinburgh buses have adverts on them that say " give cyclists like Gary room" with a picture of a bloke on a bike ( not exact words) this is an attempt to show they are people not " a cyclist"
They had a big campaign telling us all about how motorcyclists are real people and vulnerable and all. Nothing for cyclists though.
You mean people on bicycles shirley?
Person on a bike is a cyclist.
Person driving a car is a motorist but also potentially more dangerous.
Scotland varies greatly. Glasgow I find bad for cycling. maybe biased cos I was on the end of a really nasty road rager there a few weeks ago. Edinburgh seems to have a split personality on this. Majority of car drivers courteous and we have extremely well trained bus drivers who are great with cyclists but a fair few car drivers who try to run you off the road especially the school run drivers Highlands are good.
Person on a bike is a cyclist.
Person driving a car is a motorist but also potentially more dangerous.
The point being 'person' in all instances.
The labels aren't really the hill to die on but I do prefer to talk about "people on bikes/walking/in cars" rather than use the shorthand (admittedly common) terms, precisely because it draws attention to their humanity for the benefit of "Mr and Ms angry impatient ****hole".
Carefully chosen language is a tool with using when you're trying to influence people with pretty entrenched views.
For some reason given it is a great place to visit otherwise, I have had many more negative experiences on a bike in Glasgow than anywhere else in Scotland.
I don't think driving in a city brings out the best in a lot of people.
Manchester is not great either, but when you live somewhere you know how to avoid the places which are really scarey.
Interestingly enough I managed to watch some of lil' Rishi's interview with Laura K a minute ago. He was banging the drum for the poor beleaguered person in a car (see what I did there). He drew the topic onto 20mph zones, looking to condemn them in Wales as part of the "war on drivers" and then admitted that any decisions on 20/LTZs would be the choice of local authorities...
I can't help thinking this election cycle is going to be extra toxic for those of us who don't have a raging boner for automotive transport, but at the same time nothing much is actually going to change, it's too much effort for them to really legislate bicycles off the roads, or activly block every local authority trying to control dangerous traffic or implement active travel plans, but the rhetoric and propaganda is going to be ratcheting up more and more as we approach polling day.
That wafer-thin margin in Uxbridge really has a lot to answer for, it's defined a main Tory battleground for the next 18 months and given them a wedge issue that's probably not going to help them win. But as a result it's going to make the roads angrier, slightly more dangerous place for everyone...
But as a result it’s going to make the roads angrier, slightly more dangerous place for everyone…
TBH that seems to be an ongoing process, with or without government policy changes.
We met an English guy (Southerner about 60) on a campsite in Austria the other week. He said all of our road related problems were due to not charging foreign truck drivers to use our roads. Apparently they're dangerous, cause all of the potholes and don't pay road tax
🤦♂️
In that case it must be electric car drivers as well, they pat no car tax or fuel duty.
Freeloaders🤪
I live in Wales and had to go to Birmingham for work yesterday, I've always found the driving there very aggresive, I was doing 26mph up a residential street, cars both sides etc, and had a car right up my arse flashing me and trying to force me to go faster, thirty seconds later he turned off and in to his drive, he was at least sixty, I just don't get some people.
Anyone tailgates me on the rare occasions I am driving I just slow down to compensate for the lack of separation between the cars and to give me more reaction time if any hazards appear.
Just returned to Wales after a 2 month stay in our US home and cannot believe how quiet our city centre apartment is. Normally we're woken every night by speeding chavs racing up the hill outside our house - a total contrast to the peace and quiet of the North Georgia mountains. I know a lot of local folks here aren't in favour but the 20mph speed limit definitely has a thumbs up from me. This mornings grocery run around town to restock was so much more relaxing and I'm actually looking forward to a local bike ride later - I normally hate riding on the road.
Our local facebook page is full of outraged gammons and women saying they are going to 'leave' this lovely place they live in, because the council wants to change the road layout. This new layout is to benefit cycling people and pedestrians. This scheme may never come to fruition, however the town has been whipped up into a frenzy and I fear the hatred for cycling people is worse than ever.
I personally feel that many small towns will try and follow suit and make their built up areas safer for everyone, but it will mean many more 20 mph zones and NOT putting the motorist first.
I have no issues with a 20mph limit in appropriate built up areas, or 50mph on rural roads for that matter. I doubt it would have any meaningful effect on journey times in the real world anyway.
Interesting point, apparently no road is ever assigned a 50 mph limit when constructed, typically a section of road will be given a 50 limit when there's been a spate of incidents where speed was a factor, very often if there's a junction that's a bit unsighted, or some other features that have resulted in several, serious incidents.
So if you find yourself on a 50 mph stretch of A road and figure you know better, you're just repeating the pattern that got it 'downgraded' originally. Not sure if it's true but an ex-copper friend reckoned that if setting a 50 limit doesn't work and dickhead keep crashing, LAs can consider applying a 40...
typically a section of road will be given a 50 limit when there’s been a spate of incidents where speed was a factor, very often if there’s a junction that’s a bit unsighted, or some other features that have resulted in several, serious incidents.
Also can be for noise or emissions reasons in some places.
@jamze Sounds like you need a sniper to deal with the egregious speeders. Shot while leaving the built up area to avoid any damage to housing or residents.
The local Facebook group will probably be the ravings of a vocal minority. They might whip up some extra cycling hatred but their thoughts are not the thoughts of the majority of the residents. Your town might be improved if they leave. This is the reason I don't have a Facebook account, what you don't know about doesn't bother you.
No issue with 20mph zones.
What I would say (and this isn’t a bad thing) is just how slow 20mph feels in a car in some circumstances, ie hitting a 20mph zone after a 60mph zone. I’m constantly checking my Speedo as it feel like I’m doing about 10mph, especially when it inevitably ends up with a huge number of cars ending up queuing up behind
It isn’t helped by fact my cruise control doesn’t even work below 20mph so I have to rely far more on the speedo. Which inevitably leads to me actually spending less time with my eyes on the road ahead!
as with anything however, the issue is really being dictated not by whether it makes road s safer, but by whether it’s a vote winner or not for the government
Our local facebook page is full of outraged gammons and women saying they are going to ‘leave’ this lovely place they live in, because the council wants to change the road layout.
Well that would be a win for everyone else.
@jamze Sounds like you need a sniper to deal with the egregious speeders. Shot while leaving the built up area to avoid any damage to housing or residents
All in hand. Our parish council are on a mission with their speedwatch group. Double figures reported to the police every month I think, which do seem to get tickets. There was a 3 month amnesty after the 20mph limit came in, so last month they were back out with their gun. Will be interesting to see what the numbers were.
The village is noticeably nicer to walk about since the 20mph, so thumbs up from me.
A couple of days ago on my bike I was approaching a couple of coppers with a hand held speed gun.
"Hang on I'll just speed up" I quipped.
"The ticket's in the post" came the cheery riposte.
“I think this is quite romantic about our equally car-brained cousins across La Manche. Half of all new cars are SUVs across the EU, and that’s pretty much identical to the UK, for example.”
I was quite surprised by both the enormity of the cars on the ferry to France this summer (and mine isn’t small but it doesn’t seat seven people!) and how the cars in France were generally much smaller and older.
Interesting point, apparently no road is ever assigned a 50 mph limit when constructed, typically a section of road will be given a 50 limit when there’s been a spate of incidents where speed was a factor, very often if there’s a junction that’s a bit unsighted, or some other features that have resulted in several, serious incidents.
A465, Blackrock.
I’m generally in favour of the 20mph limit.
What would really help I think would be allowing the same limit on e-bikes. I think the current 4mph differential is a problem with cars taking ages to overtake or becoming impatient.
It could go some way to getting more people commuting on e-bikes if they knew they could match their cars speeds for a good section of a journey.
ebikes at 20 mph makes sense for skilled riders in traffic yes. However it makes no sense at all in the wider context of european wide cycleways where already the speed differentials between ebikes and non ebikes are wide enough to cause issues.
riding in the netherlands last year on my non ebike doing around 10 - 12 mph I was overtaking folk on non ebikes but having poor overtakes on me from older folk on ebikes. Older folk on ebikes are crashing and injuring themselves at a rate that is concerning in the Netherlands. a higher speed limit would make this worse
some countries have two levels of ebike allowed. 15 mpo and 30(??) mph - a speed pedelec. Maybe we need this split?
So unfortunately this needs to be seen in a much wider context that skilled riders in traffic. You need to look at all riders europe wide