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Just wondering what people's views are on this? Seems ok to me but then I still haven't received the 5% I was supposed to get in September.....
However I am sure I read recently annual wage growth across UK was 6%. Can't find the article from been now, think it was about rent rises.
Just add this to the ever growing self-defeating decisions from the Labour party. Especially if growth is their end.
We're in a position that the climate has been drawn by all parties that there is no money (bullshit) to do things - and we are both cost-cutting and looking for savings (yeah it didn't work but it's not stopping them).
This rise has to come from budget cuts too.
This all comes back to bite big time very soon.
The only vantage point will be "teachers should be grateful".
So yeah personally I've not had a proper wage in a while (cos I work for myself so tough) but I still want these people that drive the real economy to be paid above the erosive effects of inflation of the last few years.
Not sure how this will help a shortage of teachers.
Labour are the party of total ineptitude.
Hospital doctors - consultants and trainees ~ 2.8% following 20% pay rise agreed last year.
GPs - 2.8% following 6% pay rise last year.
And then they wonder why they can't retain GPs?
NHS and teachers deserve more. So do the shop workers on min wage who are supported by in-work benefits that are just a business subsidy in another form. So do the post office guys. How does a government redress the balance? Idk.
Labour are the party of total ineptitude.
I suspect Labour are thinking better on the general topic than the Tories ever did though, since trickle-down economics is a BS idea. I wasn't expecting them to ace everything from the start but if they are totally inept, well, we're no worse off than under the corrupt, self-serving tories. Perhaps still better off if they're not sneaking all that money off to their buddies in business - as was the tory way.
2.8% for NHS and teachers
Can I just check, as the usual news outlets are as vague as ever with the details.
1. Teachers in NI, Scotland and Wales are not included in this as they have different arrangements and salary scales?
2. Most of the teachers in Academy schools (80% of secondary schools, I think 40% of primary) are not included in this as there are different pay deals arranged with employer?
3. The NHS deal is on top of some spectacular rises for those at the top end of earning last year?
4. Does NHS in Scotland (and maybe NI and Wales) have different arrangements?
5. Do we all agree that a lot of Local Authorities are pretty poor at value for money?
AWE (official measure of wage inflation) for the year to Nov 2024 was 4.3% across all employees but that includes last years pay rises (at least for those who have received them) so it would be recursive to base this years increase on last years numbers.
private sector here - and we have just decided that we will not make any increase this year. That is probably going to go down like a lead balloon.
I’ll be honest as cost of living increases go, for public sector employees 2.8% seems OK, perhaps even more generous than I would expect. That doesn’t necessarily mean I think we have the right salary levels to recruit and retain key professions - but I think that is a job specific question rather than a public sector wide percentage calculation. One aspect that doesn’t really make sense to me about a lot of public sector pay is that SOME people seem to progress on a grades/points system and earn more without necessarily being any better at the job / producing better outcomes. As with all sectors of course you also manage to promote people out of jobs they were good at into roles they are not so that they can earn more!
the BoE are expecting AWE over the next 12 months to be under 3%, marginally above RPI/CPI, so I think anyone expecting increases >3% is likely optimistic.
Most of the teachers in Academy schools (80% of secondary schools, I think 40% of primary) are not included in this as there are different pay deals arranged with employer?
Technically, but I have never worked in an academy that hasn't followed the pay deals.
3. The NHS deal is on top of some spectacular rises for those at the top end of earning last year?
Not for us GPs.
The quote attributed to a union shows that they are out of touch. Something like 'this barely covers the cost of living increase'. No shit, that what it is supposed to do! Many private sector don't get yearly increases at all.
* The above is not a reflection on whether I think some of the jobs this rise effects are paid sufficiently or not.
AIUI this is HMG's submission to the independent pay review bodies rather than the actual offer?
The unions have yet to make their submission, after which we will get into the usual fun of people threatening to withdraw from the process, threats of IA, actual IA, etc.
From a Keynesian POV spending money on public sector pay is good for the economy…
@matt_outandabout Can't comment on teaching but the NHS in Scotland, Wales and NI is devolved, and while NHS pay awards were high last year, that's on top of over a decade of pay erosion. What NHS staff do now is not worth substantially less in real terms than it was in 2008, which is resulting in a brain drain (and in NI, the issue where people go and work on the other side of the border for substantially more money).
1. Yes
3. don’t see any reason why this would not be cumulative to any “historic correction”
4. Yes
5. Not sure. Any alternative I can imagine is probably just as bad.
And then they wonder why they can’t retain GPs?
Isn't the GP issue in part down to the nature of their contract?
They aren't "NHS", they're a private business that the NHS pays £x per person that registers with them. Which then means the surgery has a budget of £x * number of patients for the year, so if a GP want's a salary of whatever it is then that ends up being cut to a smaller number of hours. Anecdotally most round here seem to work part time, but across multiple clinics because the businesses can't afford them full time.
A bit like academy schools, in principle they are free to pay more to attract better teachers to failing schools. In reality there's not actually any more money for that.
@nixie - glossing over the fact that public sector pay has fallen behind private sector pay over the past decade and a half. So I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that we might make up some ground under a Labour government.
In 2022 the year of the inflation spike, my brother who works in the private sector got two pay rises and a bonus to help with the cost of living rises.
I got 4% because apparently to increase my pay in line with inflation would have been inflationary.
I think we got 3% this year, private sector. Sounds ungrateful but after tax and increased student loan payments the difference is barely noticeable, probably equates to how much our council tax bill has gone up by since last year so I guess it covers that at least? But none of the countless other stuff that has gone up in cost since then.
Many private sector don’t get yearly increases at all.
And yet private sector pay rises have been much higher over last 15 years and in the last year.
You seem to have forgotten about the public sector pay freezes too
You are partly correct, although pay scales for salaried GPs are set by the DDRB and practices are supposed to adhere to it.
Practice remuneration is set by the annual contract uplift, and as far as I know, there's not been any announcement on that, but it's not looking promising.
Anyway, my two hospital doctor friends that I ski with are getting paid 20% more on their already quite generous hospital contracts, and I am not.
Labour are the party of total ineptitude.
They've been in power since July. They've got 14 years of legislation that's designed to move money into the pockets of the rich and make sure the poor stay poor to untangle. And a £750 billion deficit to deal with.
for public sector employees 2.8% seems OK
Just to highlight that this is better than most public sector workers will be getting! I work at a uni and got 2.5% this year.
2.8% is ok for this year, as a standalone figure - inflation for 2024 seems to work out to around 2.5% for the year so on that front, it's not too bad. It's just that teachers (indeed, most people - but especially the public sector) are already well on the back foot after the last years where inflation averaged 9% and 7%.
In my corner of the public sector, wages are down about 10% in real terms just since 2020, and the slide has been a lot longer than that. I'm worried I'll lose some good team members soon, because what was a fairly decently paid job in 2014 is now not far above minimum wage.
Does NHS in Scotland (and maybe NI and Wales) have different arrangements?
Yes
Anyway, my two hospital doctor friends that I ski with are getting paid 20% more on their already quite generous hospital contracts, and I am not.
Gosh, that's terrible. You poor thing!
Point taken about first world problems.
But medical pay has fallen behind in real terms for the past 15 years, and on top of that, once again GP pay has fallen behind that of hospital doctors, even before we account for their recent 20% pay rise.
Anyway, my two hospital doctor friends that I ski with are getting paid 20% more on their already quite generous hospital contracts, and I am not.
If money is tight, perhaps you could cut back on the skiing holidays? Most shop workers have cut their skiing holidays right back
It's no where near enough. Things will not improve while staff are taken for granted.
We’re in a position that the climate has been drawn by all parties that there is no money (bullshit) to do things –
I don't think there's a conspiracy going on. But happy to hear different. UK deficit
I'd be fairly happy with the 2.8% if I was still working (NHS senior occupational therapist; took early retirement this year) but I would still have been earning only half of what I would have been earning if I'd stayed in my previous career (Electrical engineer). That said, my engineering career felt soul-less, whilst I loved working within forensic psychiatry. I really hope that all health care professionals and teachers get the pay they deserve and feel supported in their jobs. We need these people to be happy, talented, focussed... and not worrying about how much they earn!
The NHS deal is on top of some spectacular rises for those at the top end of earning last year?
Not Mrs FD. I wish it was. It depends on individual circumstances ie when you became a consultant etc.
They still need to sort out the tax situation. It’s ok Labour saying they will reduce waiting list by putting on extra clinics , but the fact is many consultants are reducing their work as they don’t want to go to work to loose money.
besides will there be any inflation next year? Labour appears to be doing everything in its power to stagnate the economy
I'm in a different industry, next year's budget for pay rises is 2%. Some people will get nothing, some will get slightly more. It's the biggest rise in the last 5 years.
They’ve got 14 years of legislation that’s designed to move money into the pockets of the rich and make sure the poor stay poor to untangle. And a £750 billion deficit to deal with.
This needs pointing out far more frequently, whether on here, or in the press/Question Time etc (probably by themselves, tbh).
They've only just got in power, and there's a lot of shit to deal with.
I'm not even a Labour voter - but **** me, people seem to forget the shower of shits who've run the country (into the ground) for the past 14 yrs.
@towpathman hard to know how we're going to solve the GP retention crisis by comparing our pay to shop workers.
Well the 2.8% increase will help my teacher wife to continue paying for glue sticks and other resources that she gets because her school can’t/wont.
On behalf of the half a million other public servants covered by this deal, who are still massively behind after the austerity cuts in terms of pay and ability to deliver in our roles, they can just **** right off.
Other than that I have no strong views
Well said @hungrymonkey
And lolz at someone whose doctor ski buddies are feeling upset over wage erosion.
Why are people so against doctors pay being increased? There’s already a massive problem with medics qualifying then heading abroad for far better pay and terms (and quality of life) and seemingly some are happy for that to continue to get worse? Like it or not, people don’t work for free and people will vote with their feet regardless if you think that’s ethically wrong or not (fwiw I don’t, I think it’s absolutely fair enough to because that’s how the western world works).
@matt_outandabout - I'll bear that in mind when you're moaning about not being able to see a GP or access NHS healthcare.
@airvent the problem in GP is not getting graduates to come to primary care, it's getting them to stay. They try it, realise how hard it is, and how relatively poorly remunerated it is and then bugger off.
Yeah. I have a friend who trained, worked for a year or two here in GP practices and NHS hospitals then took a much better paid job in New Zealand with more time off and his visa, resettlement and residency costs were paid by his employer who are actually grateful for the work he does and fight to retain him. I can’t say I blame him to be honest. I don’t subscribe to the view that people working for the NHS should accept worse pay and conditions just because it’s a public service job, that isn’t how our world works.
I got 4% because apparently to increase my pay in line with inflation would have been inflationary.
If you're on a standard BMA employment contract (all our salaried GP are) you're entitled to the full 6%.
We've got the money from the NHS in September back dated to April. In total our payment uplift has been 7.4%. Theis is supposed to offset the increases in the cost of keeping the doors open, a pay uplift to all employed staff, and some for the partners...Bearing in mind that there's also going to be an increase to NI costs next year, and the min wage is going up (we use it as a tracker for some staff) , it doesn't go far.
Re doctors pay, giving them bigger payrises is just enabling them to go part time / retire earlier thus reducing capacity overall making the existing issues worse - it won't make them 'happy' they aren't on the breadline so its not a material impact in that sense.
I would far rather the money was invested in making the job less shit. Increase the capacity of doctors, by doing things like fully funding medical degrees. More doctors, more to share the load, less stress. They don't have huge debts they need to recover etc....
I have a similar view on teaching and nursing, though neither of those roles is earning well above national average and you don't see them retiring earlier o. The money needs to be invested in the infrastructure first.
Everyone wants more money. I'm down 10% in real terms over the last 4 years. I know no-one who gets anywhere near the supposed wage growth figures that are banded about every year. I can only assume a large chunk of it is due to people changing employers
More doctors, more to share the load, less stress.
Payments to GP practices are based on list sizes, I'd like to recruit another doctor to share the load, I can't afford another one, in fact I've already agreed with one to cut their sessions (stress, work life balance etc etc)
I agree that pay isn't everything. But if people feel underpaid in all industries they are more likely to leave.
There are loads of other things that need sorting too - workload, responsibility, cracking down on complaints, workload dumping by hospitals and other community services, micromanagement etc...
I don't know any doctor that feels underpaid, just ones that feel over worked. You cant cancel one out with the other... Though I feel like we're basically arguing the same point.
2.8%, should be 28% plus. We need to recruit and retain in the public sector. The NHS and teachers are massively under valued at all levels. You could also reduce tax for the public sector employees as a perk as well.
Why the public sector is so underfunded, under resourced and under valued is beyond me. If the public sector is happy, it makes the private sector stronger and round we go.
On GP wages: people who don't think GPs should be able to afford to ski obviously aren't bothered about not having a GP.
On teacher wages: those who got a PGCE around the time I did realised they could get better pay and conditions doing something else so apart from a few teaching in countries where pay and conditions are more attractive I don't know/know of any teacher of my generation who is still in the profession. Even the more recently qualified don't stay long. Women leave the profession in droves when they have kids because the wages don't cover child care so they don't return to teaching - part time work or work that allows WFH is ultimately more lucractive.
In both cases under paying people with the intelligence and commitment to be either a GP or a teacher is a poor strategy and false economy. They'll end up doing something else and/or going somewhere else.
On GP wages: people who don’t think GPs should be able to afford to ski obviously aren’t bothered about not having a GP.
Brilliant. And true.
Two separate arguments here: is 2.8% a reasonable pay increase? and is the base salary enough?
Is 2.8% a reasonable increase? probably. I'm looking at 2-3% in the private sector, inflation's coming down too, so as a deal it's pretty vanilla.
Is the base salary enough? no, probably not. It's the NHS that fixes people up and sends them back out to work, so they can drive the economy, so it stands to reason that the better NHS we have then the better economy we have. But it all comes at a price as the books need balancing and promises have been made to not put up taxes when in reality that's exactly what needs to happen - but no-one's going to like that!
Only other thing that's going to increase the size of Government spending is either economic growth or borrowing, and we definitely don't need more borrowing. We should pay some off but then that'll reduce the amount of money to spend on NHS wages.
Balancing the books is not easy and every decision to spend more is met with another one that needs to be made to spend less, so if we spend more on the NHS what do we spend less on? Defence? Roads? Police? I don't have the answers.
I don’t know any doctor that feels underpaid, just ones that feel over worked
That's really not the tone of our BMA-led trust WhatsApp group. There may be embarrassment about admitting that to non-doctors, though (and in any case I think what people are driving at is similar pay for not doing a load of effectively mandatory overtime)
Doctors particularly seniors are well paid compared to the rest of the public sector. Whilst I do not disagree they are underpaid overall they have done better than care assistants, cleaners, junior nurses etc over the last 14 years.
I'd like to see some thought given to biasing rises to the lowest paid for now. Sorry docs - you can wait your turn 🙂
@ratherbeintobago indeed. Just look at the rather ridiculous reaction on here to the fact that I've been on a skiing holiday.
There's also a taboo amongst doctors about admitting that money is a motivation for practicing medicine which starts at our med school interviews.
they have done better than care assistants, cleaners, junior nurses etc over the last 14 years.
Sorry, that's just not true. "Rich" doctors have been an easier political target than our less well paid colleagues, who I believe have had relative protection from pay freezes etc.
I don’t know any doctor that feels underpaid, just ones that feel over worked
That’s really not the tone of our BMA-led trust WhatsApp group. There may be embarrassment about admitting that to non-doctors, though (and in any case I think what people are driving at is similar pay for not doing a load of effectively mandatory overtime)
My feeling is if conditions of practice / workloads were better sorted that would go a long way towards improving retention. Probably cost more than a pay rise but lead to a better service. And yes - some hospital doctors hours and pay structure are stupid.
Re doctors pay, giving them bigger payrises is just enabling them to go part time / retire earlier thus reducing capacity overall making the existing issues worse – it won’t make them ‘happy’ they aren’t on the breadline so its not a material impact in that sense.
Those retiring or going part time are doing so because it’s costing them to go to work. My wife’s colleague is dropping from 14PA’s to 10 because it’s costing her to go to work.
I know many that disagree with that. From where hospital doctor pay used to be it has been massively eroded. Other professions offer much better pay. Newly qualified are all going abroad where they can earn far more .
You don’t become a doctor to become rich these days
Mrs FD has a consultant post out at the minute . Very prestigious job , great part of the world , but not one single uk trained applicant.
I am Dr and I have never been on a skiing holiday
@Kramer The other thing is that Ireland has just negotiated a new consultant contract, the starting salary for which is 3x what it is in the UK. Even if you accept that a lot of Ireland is 10% more expensive to live in, this is causing a few people to pause for thought.
And it's also causing massive problems in NI.
@tjagain The issue is that doctors are relatively well paid, but that doesn't mean the pay erosion isn't worse.
There is not a "one size fits all" for doctors pay and retention. GPs, consultants and FY1s al need different things. We also need to train more of them.
I merely suggest that given the budgetary restrictions lets bias pay rises towards the lowest paid in public service. Those who are ending up with top up benefits or even using food banks
For those stating that improving quality of life alone for GPs will solve the problem, it won't.
25 years ago, we had a pretty good quality of life as GPs, less complaints, shorter hours, much better hospital support, and better hours.
We could not get doctors to apply to training schemes because of the low pay.
If got fixed when New Labour gave GPs a massive pay rise.
If you want decent quality GPs with decent access (and you probably should, because it would fix many of the problems with the NHS) you need to pay us well enough and improve our conditions.
Successive governments keep on trying to get a GP service on the cheap, and that's why we're so chronically short.
If I'd been doing the same job for the last 20 years, I'd be the equivalent of at least £20k worse off. Add inflation over that period to the £32k I initially took for the engineering team role and that should be the equivalent of £70k+ now - just to keep up with the rise in the price of everything. £70k is still senior+ money and we're all getting screwed.
I am Dr and I have never been on a skiing holiday
You should try it. It's a great way to meet <checks notes> other doctors. 😉
GPs are different, and I dare say @Kramer knows better than I, but my general feeling was that GP is the one part of the NHS that was truly world-class, and what they need is the resource to make things better (which will include pay) rather than a reorganisation to make things more like secondary care.
For hospital doctors, it's relatively straightforward - we need pay restoration, and what I do now is not worth less in real terms than what I did in 2008.
@Kramer Believe me I have lots of other things I'd like to spend my money on than skiing. More bikes for one thing.
they have done better than care assistants, cleaners, junior nurses etc over the last 14 years.
Some of those will be on min wages, and those have had a percentage increase more than GP/doctors have.
And will still be unable to pay their rents and utility bills while some of their colleagues will be skiing.
you need to pay us well enough and improve our conditions.
The biggest headaches I have now (in no particular order) are probably patient expectations, regulatory framework (the onerous level of compliance), ICB interference, the continual shifting of workload to GP, performance monitoring - pointless league tables, data gathering for 3rd party bodies, hoop jumping for funding.
And will still be unable to pay their rents and utility bills while some of their colleagues will be skiing.
And the option here is paying highly trained, highly skilled professionals what they're worth, which means they can go skiing, or not doing so, which means they'll be skiing in NZ or Canada having emigrated, which means you can't access a GP.
Obviously all NHS staff deserve pay restoration.
And will still be unable to pay their rents and utility bills
Oh sure, but they've still seen a larger increase. Last year alone was nearly 10%
And the option here is paying highly trained, highly skilled professionals what they’re worth, which means they can go skiing, or not doing so, which means they’ll be skiing in NZ or Canada having emigrated, which means you can’t access a GP.
Obviously all NHS staff deserve pay restoration.
Well said. I just found that skiing comment rather tone deaf but I may be being a little sensitive after a year where my outgoings have gone up massively while my pay hasn't. But, I'm not a teacher or a medic so have no more comment to make, other than maybe some sarcasm. 😀
@kramer just to be clear I do think doctors are underpaid, I say that as my partner is a doctor, so I see the level of responsibility required for the job.
However, if you want to drive the discussion and get people to agree that doctors should be paid more, it’s probably best to leave out the anecdotes about your skiing holidays, as this will alienate many people. Just because you don’t get paid what you deserve, doesn’t mean you aren’t in a position of relative privilege, and you should be mindful of that
FYI I get paid more than my partner, so I’m not speaking from a position of envy here
Re doctors pay, giving them bigger payrises is just enabling them to go part time / retire earlier thus reducing capacity overall making the existing issues worse
Exactly what we are experiencing locally. I mean, I get it. How are you going to fit in all your holidays if you're working full time?
Re doctors pay, giving them bigger payrises is just enabling them to go part time / retire earlier thus reducing capacity overall making the existing issues worse
I'd argue the contrary - letting people do fewer hours makes them less likely to go early, and paying more makes it easier to recruit/retain.
The communist dream, eh, IdleJon, everybody should be poor. Fact is that medical studies are long, expensive and hard work, and it takes more than just vocation (which we all hope is the main reason our doctors doctor) to get to be any kind of doctor. There's an opportunity cost too, if you're talented enought to get through medical school you could probably get into other even higher paid professions.
It's slightly easier to become a teacher and again having a vocation is a big part of it for most. However, in my case the desire to go skiing, own an energy efficeint house, bring a kid up without economic constraints, live somewhere properly nice... trumped the teaching vocation. So I have low pay, shitty conditions and a dick of a headmaster to thank for my subsequent success in life.
I assume that’s aimed at me. Fair enough. I don’t know you and couldn’t care less about you and how much you do or don’t get paid. However I’m not the one who is trying to persuade others that I should be given a pay rise. So you can consider the advice, or ignore and carry on as you are - your choice
It wasn't either or, the point was one of the challenges is capacity doing anything that reduces capacity is not going to be helpful
I gave the example of funding medical qualification. I mean we desperately need doctors. Why do we put in a huge financial barrier to those who are unable or unwilling to saddle themselves with huge debt? I think all bar one doctor I know is from a family of doctors who were able to fund them through med school.
People from poorer backgrounds 'moving up' are less likely to be thinking a guaranteed job for life paying double+ naitonal average with a great pension is rubbish. I can also assure you, unless you are very lucky, you can't just jump into another profession and earn £100k+ no matter how bright you are, you'll need to retrain and get experience.
As for moving abroad, there are pros and cons, I doubt there are enough posts for everyone whose threatening they can just pop over to NZ or canada
I’d argue the contrary – letting people do fewer hours makes them less likely to go early, and paying more makes it easier to recruit/retain.
Yes, certainly in GP land, the people I know, myself included, who work part time, do so to maintain their mental health.
If I didn't have the option to work part time, I'm pretty sure I'd have left the profession or emigrated.
I also studied for a long time, am told by my colleagues that I'm good at my job, and work hard. I'm also aware that I'm luck to be able to do so, but I won't be ashamed of getting paid more than some, and spending it on things that I enjoy and are good for my mental health.
Oh sure, but they’ve still seen a larger increase. Last year alone was nearly 10%
Given "official" Uk inflation over the last four years i strikes me that nurses have still lost out. Take into account that inflation has been highest on the non discretionray spending such as housing, transport and energy and people on low incomes have seriously lost out to inflation.
One NHS sector that is definitley overpaid is the host of non-productive managers and admistrators that the modern world has created. 😉
the same argument for retention can be made all across the public sector
I doubt there are enough posts for everyone whose threatening they can just pop over to NZ or canada
That really depends, from my team of 12 we have lost two consultants to Canada in the last 18 months.
We're losing a partner to Qatar in two weeks. He's only been a partner for less than two years.