[Closed] “if you believe you are a citizen of the world, you are a citizen of nowhere”

Just hoovering up those final few unconverted former UKIP voters innit?

Socrates: "I am not an Athenian or Greek, but a citizen of the world"

I'm with the not Greek bloke on this one.

There is no such thing as a Citizen of the World. There is no such passport. As such TM is completely correct.

DH Lwarence

“Men fight for liberty and win it with hard knocks. Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again, poor fools. And their grandchildren are once more slaves.”

Its standard nationalist politics

develop a 'them against us narrative' get the people to blindly follow you

Kippers "Mrs. May, you're trying to seduce me"

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"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides when a colourful rag is unfurled"

“if you believe [s]you are a citizen of the world[/s] Teresa May, you are an [s]citizen of nowhere[/s] idiot”

FTFY

There is no such thing as a Citizen of the World. There is no such passport. As such TM is completely correct.

Actually there is a "world passport", it occasional makes the news when someone gets stopped with one but they do seem to get accepted in a lot of places. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-35330365 (an example of one being refused as a travel document).

#jambafact

[quote=jambalaya ]There is no such thing as a Citizen of the World. There is no such passport. As such TM is completely correct.
DH Lwarence
“Men fight for liberty and win it with hard knocks. Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again, poor fools. And their grandchildren are once more slaves.”

You really are quite an odious, disgusting rat

There is no such thing as a Citizen of the World. There is no such passport. As such TM is completely correct.

There is also no such thing as a Citizen of Nowhere. There is no such passport. As such TM is talking out of her arse, or alternatively, it was a metaphor and not intended to be taken literally

feels like she's trying to have her 'no such thing as society' moment IMO :/

Actually there is a "world passport", it occasional makes the news when someone gets stopped with one but they do seem to get accepted in a lot of places.

#jambafact

I think on this occasion you have #thisisnota[s]spoon[/s]fact. That world passport is a novelty item at best, most who try to use it land themselves in a bit of bother.

Some people are the future a different some are the past. The future has no borders

Perhaps she's referring to people like me - after 15 years out of the UK I no longer have the vote anywhere?

There is no such thing as a Citizen of the World. There is no such passport. As such TM is completely correct.
DH Lwarence
“Men fight for liberty and win it with hard knocks. Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again, poor fools. And their grandchildren are once more slaves.”

I think you'll find that whether you like it or not, we are all citizens of this world. I am Welsh/British/European and finally and a citizen of the world, the same as every other human. Rhetoric like TM's utterly shameful bollocks is divisive and just serves to create a them and us mentality that legitimises racism and intolerance. The sooner people understand that the sooner this world can progress forward instead of backwards into the 1930's.

I have studied abroad, lived abroad and served around the world alongside soldiers of many different nationalities, if you like'fighting for liberty with hard knocks'. On every occasion I was treated with respect and welcomed for what I could contribute, my nationality was never an issue. However, if I was a foreigner looking to come to Britain I wouldn't dare at the moment; TM just shows what a nasty little place this country risks becoming.

TM just shows what a nasty little place this country risks becoming.

Sadly I think we're already there

The racists, bigots and xenophobes are running the show 🙁

Funny aint it

All you middle class had to do, was to allow some of the benefits of "coach ticket" migration to filter down to the working class rather than grasping them all to your selves...

The thing is the major problems facing us are global issues and will need to be resolved on a world wide scale. Big problems like climate change, resource depletion, food availability, water management, energy etc not piddly little ones like immigration levels which will result from these.

Funny aint it
All you middle class had to do, was to allow some of the benefits of "coach ticket" migration to filter down to the working class rather than grasping them all to your selves...

Funny ain't it.

All the coalition had to do, was not cause a double dip ressession and launch an ideological attack on public services and terms and conditions and blame it on migrants rather than holding their hands up and saying actually it's all our fault.

The thing is the major problems facing us are global issues and will need to be resolved on a world wide scale. Big problems like climate change, resource depletion, food availability, water management, energy etc not piddly little ones like immigration levels which will result from these.

Spot on!

“if you believe you are a citizen of the world, you are a citizen of nowhere”

It's funny.
I've lived and worked abroad. Singapore, France, Germany, UAE. I've done jobs overseas, Spain, Italy, Norway, Bulgaria, Holland. I've cycled my bike as far east as Hungary and as far south as Greece. I've travelled more countries than I can remember. I've dated girls from all over the world, I have friends from all over the world and I'm married to an American.
I've been lucky, but I've put myself out there.

In all that time I've met thousands of humans who have been friendly and kind and we've all treated each other as decent human beings. I've been helped when I needed and I've helped others. It's basic human compassion.

From my experiences it's hard to conclude anything other than I am a world citizen. We're all fundamentally the same at birth.

What confuses me is people like Jamba, who eludes to having traveled, has come through this process and still wants to build barriers with people. I just can't understand it. But it can only be learned behaviour.
I feel a bit sorry for him really.

fourbanger - Member
In all that time I've met thousands of humans who have been friendly and kind and we've all treated each other as decent human beings. I've been helped when I needed and I've helped others. It's basic human compassion.

The sooner we realise the concept of sovereign nations [b]as we know it [/b]is long past its sell-by date the better.

Sadly, I can't actually see that day coming any time soon. In our society it seems to be getting ever further away.

All heil the new world order

So who are you and where are you from then?

If I'm on my local trails I'm from a place near Sandy Lane (local home built trail)

If I'm up country a bit I'm from Kent

If I'm overseas I'm a Brit

If I get to travel to another planets trail park I'll be from Planet Earth.

I'm a rider, riding with you it doesn't matter where I'm from, it's just a conversation starter something to compare my local trail with what we're on at the moment, somewhere to maybe visit to see me another day, am I a citizen of the world? No, actually I'm a bloody subject we're all Britsh Subjects something I've never been really happy about, true I was an EU citizen for a bit, but it never stopped me being a Subject all the time I was here and those Tax forms constantly remind me of who it is I'm beholden to.

I'm confused.

Her speech was largely received as a play for the centre ground - even sounding a lot like Milliband around the role for a bigger state, but within the same speech there's comments like this, which sound horribly parochial and anti-foreign and Amber Rudd sounding like she's considering a policy which an awful lot of people thought sounded like Nazi policy...

So what's her position exactly? Is she confused, or is confusion of the electorate the point?

Far Right and Far Left eventually come back to meet each other... but even the most paranoid observer surely wouldn't consider the UK is heading to either the left or the right extremes - we've absolutely no history of extremism - even at the height of both communism and fascism in the 1930s we laughed at Mosely just as we laugh at Farage and he got no real power and I don't believe our fundamental values or national character have changed that much...

So I'm confused. And more than a little bit horrified at Amber Rudd

Glad to see TM - and her lickspittle acolyte Jamba - getting short shrift on this thread.

Nationalism is the cause of almost as many problems as religion, and both are concepts in need of major rethinking to be fit-for-purpose in the globalised, digital era.

I am proudly a citizen of the world with multiple nationalities and experience of being an immigrant. I look out, not in. I see the good, not the bad. People are people, and I don't understand those who have the energy or inclination to waste on creating artificial division or hatred.

Theresa May's hatred of foreign people and human rights really scares me. She was, in 2014, the inaugral female recipient of the Munrobiker "Most Dangerous Man in Britain" award.

Sadly, unless you were an immigrant or related to one, you'd have not really come across how utterly vile she is because the worst of what she has done was all under the radar stuff, like her new laws on spouse visas which were designed, it seems, with the sole purpose of tearing apart thousands of families for the sole purpose of getting immigration figures down so Terry from Essex would think all them brown people what he hates so much weren't getting in anymore. Most people seem to think all you need to do to stay in the country is get married, while in reality that's never been the case and now she's introduced laws that no one noticed that mean children living without one of their parents, families being broken up and lives destroyed.

The sentence "if you believe you are a citizen of the world then you are a citizen of nowhere" sums up very neatly how unpleasant this woman is, as well as hideously backwards. If Britain expects to succeed in a global economy this woman will be a massive barrier to that, she's going to plunge the UK into the dark ages compared to other first world countries as development continues.

brooess - Member
So what's her position exactly? Is she confused, or is confusion of the electorate the point?

I'd worry even more that there's no-one pulling the strings, and the whole ruling class (or at least most of them) are relatively thoughtless, aimless opportunists intent on merely covering their own back.

Alan Moore
"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory, is that conspiracy theorists believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is actually chaotic. The truth is that it is not The Iluminati, or The Jewish Banking Conspiracy, or the Gray Alien Theory.

The truth is far more frightening - Nobody is in control.

The world is rudderless."

Far Right and Far Left eventually come back to meet each other... but even the most paranoid observer surely wouldn't consider the UK is heading to either the left or the right extremes - we've absolutely no history of extremism - even at the height of both communism and fascism in the 1930s we laughed at Mosely just as we laugh at Farage and he got no real power and I don't believe our fundamental values or national character have changed that much...

So I'm confused. And more than a little bit horrified at Amber Rudd

We don't have a history of extremism and that is what has made it all the more horrifying, the issue is that most of the papers in the UK are right-wing. We are dominated by the Murdoch press and the Daily Mail - who have between them, succesfully suplanted American gutter politics and the rhetoric of the alt-right into the heart of British politics.

I think it is more about the electorate already BEING confused.

May is interesting, just like Corbyn. They aren't going to be plastic clones like Cameron and Blair, I just don't think they have the shapeshifter abilities so the truth will out.
Sometimes you need to take a step or 2 backwards to truly move forward... Let the crowd be the judge

Let the crowd be the judge

Yeah that always leads to great things....

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“It seemed to us that we were witnessing a total break in the evolution of mankind, the complete collapse of man as a rational being." - Heda Margolius Kovály, Under a Cruel Star: A Life in Prague

It's an oyster, and I'm the pearl 😀

Time to dust these off is it?

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she is a jingoistic idiot happy to flirt with racism as she erodes our rights

I think the aspiration is an offshore jurisdiction for international banks and megacorps where they will be free to thrive in a low regulatory environment...ie a sort of super Cayman Islands/Switzerland on TUEs Not a cat in hell's chance USA/Europe will allow it mind.

Is Rupert Murdoch a Citizen of the World...changes nationality at will, arranges meetings with ministers and heads of state etc....don't think May's aphorism was aimed at him though.

[i] "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides when a colourful rag is unfurled"
[/i]

RUSH

I'd like to watch someone rock up to immigration in just about any country in the world sans passport and/or visa, and state, in an imperious manner, "I am a citizen of the world, let me in", and see what happens.
It's a fantasy that exists in the minds of some who imagine that all nation states can just tear down their borders and co-exist forever.
Human nature proves that ain't going to happen.

Human nature showed we kept slaves and raped and pillaged etc.

It changes though some folk cite it to defend the most odious aspects of our character that can be changed all be it slowly

Human nature is unpredictable. Borders come and go. Who can say what is possible? Only those with no imagination are satisfied with what already exists.

RichPenny - Member
Human nature is unpredictable. Borders come and go. Who can say what is possible? Only those with no imagination are satisfied with what already exists.

Only those with no imagination are satisfied with what already exists.

There's at least 16 million of them in this country.

Her speech was largely received as a play for the centre ground - even sounding a lot like Milliband around the role for a bigger state, but within the same speech there's comments like this, which sound horribly parochial and anti-foreign

Why would that be confusing? Left and Right are only sides of the room - it's perfectly possible to mix and match on different issues. Being say, pro big government doesn't automatically make you pro gay marriage or pro immigration and so on.

Nazi party was into big government AFAIK.

Nazi party was into big government AFAIK.

Left and right are utterly meaningless these days. Particularly with the left now embracing antisemitism and traditional left voters moving to UKIP.

^^^^ HAHAH they were socialist in name only.

Capitalism: People working for the owners of wealth with profits going to the owners of companies, balanced by market demands and conflict between labor and capitalists.

Marxist Socialism: People working for communal gain with profits (in a manner of speaking) shared by everyone who is working, driven by market demands.

National Socialism: People working for the good of the country with profits going to the owners of companies, driven by the needs of the state with all conflict between classes suppressed by a heavy-handed state.

@Tom_W1987, what May proposed sounds awfully like the third of your definitions.

There's at least 16 million of them in this country.

I thought it was 17 million, suffering from lack of imagination wedded to overbearing nostalgia.

It's often useful to look things up and find out what they mean- this can stop you from looking daft for using wrong definitions. From the Oxford dictionary:

[b]citizen of the world[/b]

A person who is at home in any country.
‘he has long since ceased to be a provincial and is now very much a citizen of the world’

Right, now we all know what it means, everyone talking about passports, border control etc can stop it.

@Tom_W1987, what May proposed sounds awfully like the third of your definitions.

Yup and that's why I'm scared - some suggested reading.

- The Hitler Myth - Ian Kershaw
- Hitler: A Study in Tyranny - Alan Bullock
- The German Dictatorship - Karl Dietrich Bracher
- State of Deception: The Power of Nazi Propaganda - Edward Phillips
- The True Believer - Eric Hoffer (This above anything else)
- The Portage to San Cristobal of A.H. - George Steiner (decent insights into the use of language)
- Goebells - Peter Longerich

May is playing an old game, that is easy to sport if you are wise to her use of language.

onewheelgood

Does the first paragraph sound familiar as well? (wiki on The Hitler Myth).

In the book, Kershaw explores a concept he calls the "Hitler Myth that describes two key points in Nazi ideology that depict Adolf Hitler as a demagogue figure and as a mighty defender.[1][2] In the demagogue aspect Hitler is presented as a figure that embodies and shapes the German people, giving him a mandate to rule. As a defender, he is depicted as defending Germany against its enemies and redressing the imbalance imposed by the Treaty of Versailles. These were essential elements of propaganda of the time and helped to 'plaster over' early cracks in the Nazi Regime's facade, though by no means de-fusing all tensions in Germany at that time.

The myth of Hitler as the saviour of Germany from conspiracies directed against it by the Soviet Union and the West—especially France—was an extremely powerful tool in binding together the German people in loyalty and submission. The German people were left embittered by the ineffective and unstable party politics of Weimar Germany which had failed to rescue its people from the humiliation administered by Europe at the close of the First World War.

Thus, as Kershaw states,

"Hitler stood for at least some things they [German people] admired, and for many had become the symbol and embodiment of the national revival which the Third Reich had in many respects been perceived to accomplish."[3]

May sends ****ing shivers down my spine. She reminds me of the famous quote from The Portage to San Cristobal of A.H. - [i]"there shall come a man whose mouth shall be as a furnace and whose tongue as a sword laying waste. He will know the grammar of hell and teach it to others. He will know the sounds of madness and loathing and make them seem music. Where God said, let there be, he will unsay."[/i]

Funny aint it

All you middle class had to do, was to allow some of the benefits of "coach ticket" migration to filter down to the working class rather than grasping them all to your selves...

What? Brace yourself for disappoint in your new British people first world...

Some quick backtracking there rich penny.
Tom you are sounding unwell.

I don't think so, we're seeing a resurgent right throughout the west - Trump, Le Pen and May who are all dancing to the same old tired tune, the scary thing with May is that she can dress the divisive rhetoric up in a pretence of respectability. Kershaw states at the end of the book, that his book is a warning to all modern developed nations - we've forgotten the lessons of history - the only time we ever give thought to those times are when we're feeling jingoistic about killing Germans. We had a violent backlash against immigrants after the Brexit vote and now May, instead of deciding to reign this in - has decided to let the cat out of the bag. The longer this kind of rhetoric goes on for, the greater the risk that her rhetoric becomes a run away feedback loop.

Hmm.. no-one seems to be discussing the benefits of migration to the actual migrants. Almost as if they don't matter somehow...

@Countzero indeed, they'd have as much chance at passport control with Citizen of the World as you'd have in a job interview with a certificate from The University of Life

British Citizenship will once again mean what it means to every other country in the world outside the European Union.

Citizenship profers rights and responsibilities unique to that country and determined by it.

Hmm.. no-one seems to be discussing the benefits of migration to the actual migrants. Almost as if they don't matter somehow...

Absolutely of benefit to them which is why the Government of the day should choose the best on which to give that

It's a fantasy that exists in the minds of some who imagine that all nation states can just tear down their borders and co-exist forever.
Human nature proves that ain't going to happen.

Citizenship profers rights and responsibilities unique to that country and determined by it.

[img] [/img]

British Citizenship will once again mean what it means to every other country in the world outside the European Union.

No.... I rather suspect that British citizenship will take on an entirely new meaning worldwide. Although I suspect many of our ex colonies in warmer climes already hold that view.

Absolutely of benefit to them which is why the Government of the day should choose the best on which to give that

As in we only let in the ones who will primarily benefit "us" not those who will initially benefit themselves but may become valued?

Some quick backtracking there rich penny.

Only if you didn't follow what I wrote. Seems odd to align remaining in the EU with inertia, given the amount of change over the last 40 years.

Nobody has aligned inertia with being a member of the EU, times have changed so apply your words.. The statement fits many different situations but you want them to only be used to confirm your own bias

Human nature is unpredictable. Borders come and go. Who can say what is possible? Only those with no imagination are satisfied with what already exists.

Doesn't it apply today?

I think ultimately this phrase is a huge mistake by May

shes just insulted 48% of the country

At a time when BSers are all insisting that we should muck in together and make a success of Brexit (coz fixing your shit is our job, right?) she comes out with divisive statements like this.

Not a good start to her premiereship

Can I take this opportunity to call her an evil ****ing bitch?

shes just insulted 48% of the country

She's a Tory, she doesn't give a flying f*** about 95% of the country. It's not like she was elected PM to do this, she's basically an appointed dictator. Labour aren't in a position to stop her and won't be in four years either.

It's exactly the start to her premiership I expected from the woman who introduced the "go home" poster vans.

mikewsmith - Member
Some people are the future a different some are the past. The future has no borders

I believe that children are our future, teach them well and let them lead the way.....

It's exactly the start to her premiership I expected from the woman who introduced the "go home" poster vans.

It is interesting that media in the weeks following her appointment were trying to present her as some great "unknown" and suggesting that her views were somehow hidden.

[quote=nickc ]It's exactly the start to her premiership I expected from the woman who introduced the "go home" poster vans.
It is interesting that media in the weeks following her appointment were trying to present her as some great "unknown" and suggesting that her views were somehow hidden.

[img] [/img]

Another nice thing that is going on is allowing councils to opt out of child protection laws:

[url= http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2016/09/30/councils-to-be-allowed-to-opt-out-of-child-protection-laws ]to hell with vulnerable children[/url]

The funding that is being cut to the NHS for health visitors, 40% cut in my NHS trust, none of the other services related to the health visitors are aware, complete reshaping of the service provided so there will be many more Baby P incidents that only government can be held responsible for.

The current government are making Trump look like a level headed, broad thinking, charming man