[Closed] The Carbon Chameleon is dead long live the aluminium Chameleon

£2400 for an Alloy hardtail with SX and a Recon

Shut up and er... mug someone else.

Overpriced with those specs I'm afraid.

No frame only will send most people elsewhere. Seems like a daft move.

Edit: especially when they promote it like this on the website:

We gave new Chameleons to five very different riders and this is how they built them up...

Doh

Santa Cruz mark up...
can get a rather nice Sonder Signal Ti with SLX groupset for £100 more... know what id do

Overpriced, underspecced and are they even available?

I tried to buy a chameleon frame earlier this year and there was no stock anywhere. Even in 'poo' brown, I mean bronze.

Always had a soft spot for Chameleons but not at those p$$$taking prices.

starting from just £2399

I don't usually like to criticise specific bike journalists, but please do try to be a bit less gullible in future and take an objective look at the VFM of products.

I'm gonna buy a Nukeproof scout and some Santa Cruz stickers and save myself a fortune.

I’m gonna buy a Nukeproof scout and some Santa Cruz stickers and save myself a fortune.

quite. it's difficult to see what 'added value' santa cruz are bringing with this vs lots of similarly capable hardtails.

At the pricing, frame only would have to be circa £1500, I can see why that aren't offering it.

Isn't that a lot of money for a type 5 accessory?

i paid £1320 for the d-spec in feb2018. it seems inflation is running high on bikes

Even the £3k spec is terrible. £3.5k for gx? Is that a finders fee?

TBF the Chameleon has been horrendous value for years, although this takes it to another level. As above, if you weigh in all the bits the frame price is unreal!

Nice looking bike, but that's a bunch of cash

i'd been thinking about one of these last time round so been waiting to see what they came up with but no frame only option is dumb! most folk who would buy one want just the frame and build with either parts bin or spec themselves as significantly better VFM as its normally a second bike. Frame only option must be where the majority of their sales are/were in the UK

Always admired chameleons, and only ever made sense to me as a frame. 'starting from just £2399' I hear you chuckle!

Top marks to Santa cruz brand and marketing team as they completed this years challenge: 'make maximum profit from the limited stock of alloy frames we can get this year...'

only ever made sense to me as a frame

So many other good options these days, let's just allow SC to consign the Chameleon to greedy obscurity.

Why is it the same price in GBP as in USD?

£1GBPis $1.37USD Vat and duty would add 25% so it should be 10-12% less in GBP... which is about what it is on the more expensive models (8%)...but not the entry level?

Bird Zero AM from £1810, Orange Crush Pro for £2500 etc etc....its not like there is a lack of choice

I don’t usually like to criticise specific bike journalists, but please do try to be a bit less gullible in future and take an objective look at the VFM of products.

1. open press release from Santa Cruz
2. select all, copy and paste

Oh hi, I'm a bike journo.

This is getting daft now. Just think of what reynolds steel hardtail loveliness you can buy for a significantly smaller chunk of cash.

I note from the link in the story that there is a frame option in the US ($949). I seem to recall when I bought my alloy Chameleon (2017 I think) I paid £650ish for the frame (yes, I bought it at full retail). I'm surprised they're not offering a frame-only option in the UK, although I wonder if one might appear further down the line. The whole marketing thrust on the SC website, after all, is individual customisation.

Geo changes from its predecessor are interesting too. On the XL bike, there a 5mm increase in reach, a shorter TT and a steeper (by nearly 2 deg) SA, which is going to make for a shorter-feeling bike overall. Curious to see how it rides...

I note from the link in the story that there is a frame option in the US ($949). I seem to recall when I bought my alloy Chameleon (2017 I think) I paid £650ish for the frame (yes, I bought it at full retail).

Sounds about right. I seem to remember working out that I could buy a frame and a better spec even at full RRP, and still pay less than the entry level full bike. They've been spectacularly poor value as complete bikes for a long time. (Orbea Laufyey here - mainly XT inc. brakes, Fox 34 forks, DT wheels, approx £2k from Orbea. But it's not got a SC badge on it...)

Bought my 2020 Hightower Alloy in Autumn 2019 and built up waaay nicer than the entry level 'S' build for the same cost. I kind of didnt want a SC but the old alloy prices were actually really good, and with the suspension frames you are actually getting some value in tech/design/warranty/quality.

Its hard to see where the value is on a pretty normal looking alloy hardtail frame though.

1. open press release from Santa Cruz
2. select all, copy and paste

Oh hi, I’m a bike journo.

I think it's more cunning than that - the ridiculous "just" will make lots of people like us comment on the thread and get SC's engagements on social (vom sorry) metric going up better .

Shame there is no frame only option, I have a 2019 alloy frame which I bought specifically to run as a singlespeed.

Wow that’s amazingly bad value.

The top spec one at 3749 on their website doesn’t even get the grip 2 damper in the Fox 34, has bottom end DT Swiss 370 hubs, G2 R brakes etc. That’s awful.

Whilst my hardtail built last year doesn’t have a Santa Cruz badge on it (Marino) it’s custom steel with fancy paint, Pike Ultimates, Code Rs, Erase Components hubs, Dt swiss XM rims, GX Eagle but with a carbon crankset and KMC gold chain, Oneup dropper, decent tyres and carbon bars / branded stem etc. Buying as a sole individual I brought that in just under £3k.

Having no frame only option seems a bit of a mistake - people can go to the likes of Ribble (alloy, steel or Ti), Bird, Sonder etc and get frame only or a customised build and it’ll be better value / have better components on for the money.

Every time I've seen someone with a SC over the last couple of years I've assumed they're a bit of a mug.

They do look nice but as said are a tad too spendy.

I bought a Carbon Chameleon as frame only and transferred bits over. Absolutely love how it rides with plus tyres and a 140mm fork.

Gone a bit silly with some of the spec on mine but is probably my number one keeper now.

Prices aside, I think SC have dropped the ball in not offering it as a frame only. From what I understand, most of the delays in shipping new bikes is down to components and the kit build - if the frames are available why not get the selling and out there.

Every time I’ve seen someone with a SC over the last couple of years I’ve assumed they’re a bit of a mug.

You never know someone's background, financial situation etc. I bought a new Bronson CC 4 years ago, and never paid what that chameleon would cost. Most of my riding buddies who had SC's weren't loaded either, joiners, brickies etc, they just liked the bike and local shop supported them really well.

And as I don't drink, smoke or spend daft money on mobile phones, designer clothes, I was happy to spend decent cash on a bike.

There's folk on here with 7 or 8 bikes, and folk that buy new bikes every year, yet they'll slag someone for buying a tart brand. Pretty judgey that.

At full RRP that bike doesn't look great value, but then neither are a lot of brands tbh.

What a silly bike

The mug comment is interesting, as I do feel SC are taking advantage of their market and I suspect a lot of new mtb riders coming from the upper levels of affluence are automatically drawn to SC, without any real know how or market knowledge. Is that just clever marketing on the part of SC and not people being mugged off as such, as most of the bikes still ride well - just cost a bit too much.

I'm no mug but I do like SC bikes and feel something for the brand having had my first one in 1999 when most people had never heard of them.

As mentioned above, it's mainly a case of whatever floats your boat. I'm like nobeer as I have no other vices or hobbies so can and do spend a disproportionate amount on cycling kit and bikes compared to Mr average.

Maybe it depends on the individual as well. Some of my mates are very quick and skilled riding, yet couldn't give two hoots about their bikes brand or condition. Others go way too far making everything match and keeping them clean, moaning for ages when a scratch appears and having to have the latest kit.

I'm somewhere in the middle as I like my bikes to ride well above all, but if they happen to look nice too then a brucey bonus. Don't worry about surface scratches or keeping them spotless but, also don't neglect them.

Sometimes it's worth a few quid extra to make the purchase feel special to you. For me, brands like SC are such purchases as I have history with them, although maybe it is now dwindling a tad for reasons mentioned.

Sometimes it’s worth a few quid extra to make the purchase feel special to you. For me, brands like SC are such purchases as I have history with them, although maybe it is now dwindling a tad for reasons mentioned.

Agreed. When I bought the Bronson, it was the first time I'd ever bought an off the peg in a nice build, always just done frame only. Over the 4 years, it was head and shoulders the best bike I've had, doesn't owe me a thing, and when I finally get my finger out to sell it, I won't lose a huge amount either.

But would I buy one again? probably not, try something else next time. And I don't ride anywhere near as much as I did when I bought it.

I wouldn't sneer at anyone's decision to buy one, its a really nice looking bike.

I'm the proud owner of a Superlight and had a Blur LT at one point too. But I think the Superlight was £1,099 frame only and "D" level builds were under £2k. Admittedly that was 10 years ago but SC were actually pretty good value for a "boutique" brand.

They are clearly doing something right, I don't doubt they will sell all the Chameleons they make.

Meanwhile I'll be happy slumming it on my On One Scandal

Carbon Carbon Carbon Carbon Carbon Chameleons? They come and go...

Just me with the earworm then?

I still remember quite a few years back on a riding holiday in the States, our guide was looking at a mag i took with me and couldnt believe the prices on the SC advert. I said they are thought of as a boutique brand here, his reply really? Just considered run of the mill over there 🤔

A hardtail that’s not made from steel, no!

This might help explain what might be going on. Just speculation... I don’t actually know anything, but I have imported bikes.

YEILD HARVESTING.
Make as much profit as possible from a limited resource. If they have only xxxx amount of frames, they can maximise profits by selling as a complete rather than frame only. You can also prioritise markets with the most margin.

TAIWAN TO USA TO UK
A UK distributor really wants its stock to come direct from Taiwan, and not via the USA, as the bikes will attract double import duty. It’s possible the frame only stock may already be in the USA, and not financially viable for the uk.

Like I said, these are just things I have seen before. It’s not factual to this situation.

And it is a good looking bike. Can you still run them single speed?

I suppose it works for them, SC have enough brand 'cachet' that I still see the occasional shiny one being hoisted from the roof of a German company car.

Let's be honest they're not for those of us with normal incomes, they're pitched (at least in the UK) at those with a bit more disposable income and "premium aspirations"...

And that's fine, if someone can afford/justify a £2.5k HT that companies like Bird, Sonder, PX etc can match (spec wise) for substantially less then that's their prerogative.

I shall reiterate a little as I'm certainly of the mind that people should ride what ever they want. I just think they're too expensive for what you get and, as oldfart says, it's only the UK that thinks of them as boutique bikes (I ride a battered Bird Aether though, so what do I know).

In my opinion it’s massively overpriced for the spec but guess that’s the market at the moment plus SC premium. Shame there’s no frame only option too as many spending anything like that on a hardtail would likely want a more custom build. Thankfully I bought a secondhand Chameleon aluminium frame off here a couple of years ago and built one up with a mix of new and spare parts for under £600. It’s a much, much better spec than the new ones! It’s a great bike to ride and very adaptable. Very happy.

I also got a heavily reduced new Tallboy C from Stif a couple of years ago. I lucked in as it was before the component specs were reduced and because it was the previous year’s colour and a 650b+ the discount was huge. It cost me little more than my previous Whyte G150 and allowed me to afford a bike I could not justify otherwise. Shame there are no deals like that at the moment!!

They're for folks who like the premium lazy brands, so they'll sell at that price, especially if they can buy them on the never-never. It'll be on the back of a few leased Audis I'm sure.

Jesus, what a price hike. Paid £550 when they released the new one 3 years ago and did a v nice build for sub 2k which I'm still riding.

No chance I would buy one again at that price.

They’re for folks who like the premium lazy brands, so they’ll sell at that price, especially if they can buy them on the never-never. It’ll be on the back of a few leased Audis I’m sure.

There's an awful lot of assumption and judgement going on in this thread...why?

As for SC gouging the customer - for comparison, The Yeti ARC is £4500 as a complete build or £1400 as a Turq frame only and from what I can see, it comes with about £2-£2.2k worth of bits on it...

why?

New here?

Great marketing though, we're all talking about it 🙂

FYI Stif are showing the frame only for £899, bit steep still but to be expected given how everything is pricier these days! probs worth a bit more than things like the nukeproof horizon /commencal etc for the flexibility and hopefully the ride quality!

my chameleon frame is a 2017 bought for 550 i think? they rose in price about 6 months after launch IIRC. it was bought as the tool for the job because when you actually look there aren't 'that' many frames out there with the sort of dropout arrangement offered by SC. set up singlespeed, two sets of wheels for + and 29er experimentation, and i still switch between them mainly on the basis of which wheelset needs a tyre or bearings doing. it's done getting on for 100km and around 2000m of climbing per week. it's on it's second set of forks and second dropper. it's been good value IMO. if i had to throw it away tomorrow i wouldn't feel too hard done by. no-one at the local hills knows what car i drive because it's dark half the time and i ride there. last time i looked (admittedly before covid and rip-off britain really got going) an alloy FS frame with shock from SC was cheaper than the equivalent from orange by ~150 quid. SC haven't been that bad value IMO. they've never been cheap but apples compared to apples they weren't 'that' expensive either.
having said that i think these prices are very steep indeed. i think they're going to turn a lot of people off the brand for this.

edit:

FYI Stif are showing the frame only for £899

£799. hmm.

thats just changed! I'm closer to deciding now, this or pace rc529 which is ever so slightly less flexible!

£799. hmm.

My Niner RLT 9 (aluminium frame, carbon fork, QR at both ends) was £900 in 2014...given 7 years and the state of bike prices, is £800 for the frame that bad?

Designed for California.
Priced for the Surrey Hills 😉

darrenhowe
Full Member

Designed for California.
Priced for the Surrey Hills

I liked the “Yesterdays bike at tomorrows prices” comment myself

Winter bikes for the glentress dentist brigade !

Daffy - WTF, you've compared this to two hugely overpriced products.

Nukeproof Scout is £450 SRP frame only, £1,300 SRP for the Recon model.

Yes, £800 for an aluminum hardtail frame is really that bad. And the full bike prices are just taking the piss.

😀

undoubtedly the new chameleon is overpriced compared to some of the rivals offerings, but...

Every time I’ve seen someone with a SC over the last couple of years I’ve assumed they’re a bit of a mug.

and

They’re for folks who like the premium lazy brands

all seems a bit judgey amd i don't get the santa cruz (or for that matter, any bike brand) snobbery / reverse snobbery / hate?

the usual accusation against SC is that they're too expensive and only for dentists, where as in reality if you buy frames only they have been comparable to most other 'premium' brands - trek, specialized, orange etc in terms of cost. historically they seem to been one of only a small number of manufactures that have released pretty much all their bikes as frame only options, normally with alu or carbon choices to suit budget and don't swap standard every 5 minutes, making it easy to transfer existing kit from one frame to another.

Daffy – WTF, you’ve compared this to two hugely overpriced products.

Nukeproof Scout is £450 SRP frame only, £1,300 SRP for the Recon model.

Yes, £800 for an aluminum hardtail frame is really that bad. And the full bike prices are just taking the piss.

How much is a solaris, bearing in mind there's less in terms of import fees to factor in?.

all seems a bit judgey amd i don’t get the santa cruz (or for that matter, any bike brand) snobbery / reverse snobbery / hate?

And at least one of those making the judgey comments is on an overpriced HT from a not-quite boutique brand. They can probably justify spending a bit too much on a brand that 'real MTBers' will nod knowingly about, but imagine that if they spent a tiny bit more and went for a proper boutique brand might they might tarnish their image. I'm guessing, of course, not judging. 😀

I'm not a dentist, nor do I drive an Audi.

After sales/warranty care from Santa Cruz/Jungle/Stif is absolutely bloody brilliant and, in my opinion, worth the premium;

- Raceface crankset failed on my Bronson after two years, brand new carbon crankset provided.
- Swing arm cracked on 2008 Heckler in 2013, brand new swing arm within a week, no questions asked. - Provided with demo bike to use after I had ordered my Bronson prior to it being built and delivered.

'Nukeproof Scout is £450 SRP frame only'

And it not only looks great but presents good value I'd say. The cotic mentioned is 675 I think? Neither of these have sliding dropouts.
The pipedream moxie had sliders and is 650 iirc.

If we're comparing apples to apples then look at the Salsa Timberjack. 505 in alloy with very similar features and Geo to the chameleon. That appears good value to me. If you can get one.

Carbon Carbon Carbon Carbon Carbon Chameleons? They come and go…

Just me with the earworm then?

@G

they had to really.

SC do tend to be mopped up by the dentist/consultant/GP types. the LBS of north glasgow/south west stirlingshire seems to do a roaring trade

The pipedream moxie had sliders and is 650 iirc.

add to that the Pace RC529, £600 853 and sliders

Disclaimer: Stif's people are, in my experience, awesome to deal with.

Compare and contrast this with the Specialized Fuse, a very similar hardtail. For the money you'd spend on the base model Chameleon, you'd be £100 better off buying the top of the range Fuse, complete with a Fox 34, sliding dropouts and so on. I've got an M4 Expert frame I picked up second hand, and I have to say the only two differences I'd note are the seatpost bottle bosses, which make a longer dropper problematic but not impossible, and the lack of frame ports for running brakes moto or UK style. It rides really, really well and doesn't slap you around the face with the branding, which is a bit of a relief. There's nothing on the Chameleon that justifies that mark up, and frankly I'm scratching my head a bit.

[edit] I'm in the Surrey Hills, so Specialized is a bit of a niche brand compared to Santa Cruz 😀

I know the On-One Hello Dave is a bit extreme compared to a Chameleon but for £1500 complete with a Pike, full GX, Reverb and a WTB/Formula/Schwalbe wheelset you can have two and change.

(Ive had a MK1,2 & 3 Chameleons - and now a Hello Dave.)

A lot of the issue with perceived value seems to stem from the often peculiar translation of cost from dollars to pounds with US 'boutique' brands. If someone living in the UK happened to be on holiday in the states and chose to buy a Chameleon while there the cost would be,
£1,760; £2,170; £2,760 or £699 frame only. There would potentially be taxes etc to pay on returning but to me at least those prices seem far less outlandish.

A lot of the issue with perceived value seems to stem from the often peculiar translation of cost from dollars to pounds with US ’boutique’ brands. If someone living in the UK happened to be on holiday in the states and chose to buy a Chameleon while there the cost would be,

The Americans think SC are having a laugh too

A lot of the issue with perceived value seems to stem from the often peculiar translation of cost from dollars to pounds with US ’boutique’ brands.

That's an odd description for Santa Cruz. They're mainstream. The cost comparison I made above was with another US mainstream brand. Santa Cruz isn't two people with edgy haircuts and leather aprons in a shed.

Even the Forex- and import-dodging answer comes out at a £400 difference between the highest spec Chameleon and Fuse build, assuming you don't import the Fuse and pay UK retail price. What's that £400 buying?

The Americans think SC are having a laugh too

Yep, just seen the Pinkbike comments have not been too kind...

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-2022-santa-cruz-chameleon-and-five-individual-builds.html

At least PB's editor removed the "just" from the ridiculous price of the base model though.

If someone living in the UK happened to be on holiday in the states and chose to buy a Chameleon while there the cost would be, £1,760; £2,170; £2,760 or £699 frame only. There would potentially be taxes etc to pay on returning

don’t know if you accounted for his, but such a person would need to pay federal and possibly state sales tax on those prices.

personally, i’d buy a Rock Mountain Growler. the middle spec 40 model is 2000 canadian dollars plus sales tax.

what i like most about santa cruz is that their parent company describes themselves as being “involved in mobility products, services, and solutions globally.” such a wide reach doesn’t come cheap.

SC do tend to be mopped up by the dentist/consultant/GP types

To a non-mountain biker (you know, the vast majority of people) we’re all just a bunch of ****ers riding bikes around the woods.

The lads I know on SC are all pretty fast to be fair, and buy them because their LBS has a long history with them and have always given great support.

Not sure why people want to judge others based on the bike they are riding. Do we also assume people on old 26ers are low income, non-professionals?

it was bought as the tool for the job because when you actually look there aren’t ‘that’ many frames out there with the sort of dropout arrangement offered by SC. set up singlespeed, two sets of wheels for + and 29er experimentation

Fair comment, that. However, and off the top of my head:
* Pipedream
* 18 Bikes
* Pace
* Vertigo
* Downland
* Shand
* Surly
* Salsa
* Vassago
* Specialized
* Cotic
* Trek
* Singular
* Stif
* Alpkit
* Planet X / OO

A few years ago, I couldn't get a Chameleon frame only, although Stif / Jungle were exceptionally helpful. My LBS hooked me up with a Stache frame instead, which did everything the Santa did with a shorter back end and 29+ compatibility. Back then, by the way, the Stache cost a bit more. I ran it with 27.5+, 29 and 29+.

The frames from the above makers do the same job for less money, or sell complete bikes which are far less.

I completely agree with the reverse snobbery point, but that shouldn't detract from the fact that, even compared to Santa Cruz' own range, this bike is terrible value for money.

If you need sliding dropouts and a complete bike, a Specialized Fuse Comp or Expert will tick the same boxes for less money. Don't need sliding dropouts? The world truly is your oyster. Heck, for that, I'd consider going custom.

This bike will float a lot of peoples' boats, but it's a triumph of marketing over substance, and plenty of people remember when the Chameleon was the exact opposite of that.

I don't argue that the complete bikes are poor value and I think I said that in my first post  but a lot of the bikes you list are not comparable in the slightest. Many are steel, many don't have adjustable dropouts,  many don't have modern Geo, and many don't do both 29 and 27.5 + (Surly? Great bikes for sure but give me a break!) Some even aren't available any more (general modern world issues aside - do singular even make bikes any more?)

As I said before probably the most even comparison is the Salsa Timberjack which at 300 quid less frame only looks like very good value.

Edit: have you seen the price of the Trek Roscoe frame only!?

Am I the only person who quite likes them? Also.... I fear when this years cycle of new models gets going we all might be in for a bit of a shock about prices Vs specification. I'm seeing a few brands letting people know that the current batch is the last before cost increases...

Taking cost out of the equation, it’s just a bit meh IMO, there’s nothing about it that makes it stand out from the rest.

Putting cost back into the equation, yeah it’s terrible value, but SC has been for a while, more at the top end of the ranges, but I guess trickle down affects everything eventually.

I don’t argue that the complete bikes are poor value and I think I said that in my first post but a lot of the bikes you list are not comparable in the slightest. Many are steel, many don’t have adjustable dropouts, many don’t have modern Geo, and many don’t do both 29 and 27.5 + (Surly? Great bikes for sure but give me a break!) Some even aren’t available any more (general modern world issues aside – do singular even make bikes any more?)

Yep - I'm not disagreeing with you at all, just reeling off the huge amount of choice we're lucky enough to have on hardtail frames these days at lower prices than the Santa. Apologies if I sounded a bit chippy - not my intention.

Pretty much, if you can fit a 29" in, you can also fit 27.5+. However, here's a list of manufacturers from my list above that claim compatibility *and* have adjustable dropouts. Sure, some are steel, but I'm not going to apologise for that 🙂

Pipedream Sirius
Specialized Fuse Comp / Expert
Trek Stache
Pace 629
Salsa Timberjack

At £799 for the frame only, there's some pretty stiff competition. If I'd not already got a good deal on a Fuse frame second hand, I probably would have been queuing up to buy a Salsa Timberjack frame - it's properly nice.

I expect Santa Cruz will sell a lot of Chameleons. They always do, and they're cracking bikes. The Chameleon just seems rather overpriced this year compared to previous years, and overpriced compared to the competition.

Ragley frame £350 leaving plenty of room to build a very nice hardtail up for that kind of money ... Seems like the wild fires have taken there toll.

The Chameleon just seems rather overpriced this year compared to previous years, and overpriced compared to the competition.

Bikeradar (Seb Scott iirc) were particularly scathing about the value proposition of the outgoing model when it was originally released

I never saw that many of the last model out and about.

Maybe a different story darn sarf though?

Expect to see even fewer of these.

Similarly, never seen many chameleons in the flesh tbh, but then not many hardtails at all round here really.