[Closed] Singletrack World Response to Nadine Dorries' Comments on Trans Athletes

Yes!

Which alludes to another misconception or distortion of the issue. There are those that believe that simply 'identifying' as a woman is enough to count as transitioning. I could identify as a woman today but I don't think that should reasonably allow me to enter a womens' category race tomorrow. Transitioning is a process and it takes time and a lot of support from professionals both medical and psychological. It can take years.

I think that a definition of trans, at least in terms of sports participation, would be helpful. I am least qualified to even start on that.

At least £20, as I’ve just cancelled my subscription.

Can you give a bit more info on why?

As said above, people ( me) need to educate themselves on this issue, and I I'm keen to learn from people more informed/ opinionated than me.

( don't take the word opinionated in the wrong way. I just mean that you seem to feel strongly enough to take strong action, therefore I guess you have given this lots of thought. I want to learn from that thought)

Cheers

I disagree that the view that trans women are women is an oversimplification. It’s a starting point and nothing more. If you disagree with that position then there is literally no debate to be had. If you believe the opposite then I put it forward that THIS is the oversimplification as logically you do not believe there is any place in womens’ sport for trans women and therefore the Dorries position is the default – the debate is over.

Again respectfully, no.

Stating unequivocally that trans women are women (in this context), no ifs, no buts, no maybes, closes down this particular debate. I don’t “believe the opposite” - I just think there is a huge amount of nuance and complexity in that statement which you are dismissing when you are talking about whether trans women should compete directly with cis women.

And no, Saying that doesn’t mean that I “do not believe there is any place in womens’ sport for trans women” - it just means that I think opening a discussion on this issue with “trans women are women” is reductive when most sports currently only have binary categories of male and female

Let's be right Nadine Dorries gets most things wrong (league and union) but I agree that this is genuinely tricky topic and one quite frankly, I do not possess the brain power or IQ to get around. I would say that Matt Steven's cafe ride with Pippa (now a woman and was a pro male cyclist) is a good eye opener though. Her answers are very clear and have made a mark on my views. Again though I'm not saying we should just listen to her but it's always nice to hear from someone that's actually done it.

Good on you STW for taking a position and encouraging discussion and debate. Its a very difficult subject and one I have no answers to.
All arguments seem based on the principle of fairness but I think elite level sport in inherently unfair anyway. There isn't equal access to support, funding, coaching, equipment, facilities etc. My daughter swam reasonably well when she was younger. The time, travel and cost commitment would not have been possible had I been a single parent on a low income for example. She was very fortunate that we were able to support her.
Are we in danger of alienating yet another group of disadvantaged people within society amd all to satisfy the need for fairness at the elite level...feels to me as though we have our priorities the wrong way round. Shouldn't we sacrifice fairness at the elite levels in society to offer greater opportunities to those who others?

batfink
Full Member

Again respectfully, no.

Stating unequivocally that trans women are women (in this context), no ifs, no buts, no maybes, closes down this particular debate. I don’t “believe the opposite” – I just think there is a huge amount of nuance and complexity in that statement which you are dismissing when you are talking about whether trans women should compete directly with cis women.

Agreed. That was very much a statement to close debate rather than open it, even if it wasn't the intention.

For me, Superficial has it right. There is a sufficient proven advantage for many trans women over born women at the elite end of sport (where the research exists) that it's not possible to be supportive of the rights of women to compete in a fair space and also supportive of the rights of trans women to compete as women - at least in those sports where the effect has been researched.

There are ways to address “fairness” without calling for a knee jerk blanket ban on trans athletes across whole swathes of elite sports.

Bit of a straw man - pretty sure that's not actually been dictated as the only solution.
The points made a few times of having a class for Women and an Open class sounds a bit gimmicky, but also like the most obviously fair solution

I think that a definition of trans, at least in terms of sports participation, would be helpful.

But not a single definition that covers all sports, for all age groups, at all levels of participation.

What's the rules for people who were born non-binary?

(Probably all sorts of wrong in how I've phrased that)

No sure if anyone saw the report on trans athletes in cycling on yesterday's news at one. It certainly seems relevant.

The report starts at about 25:30.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0018srh/bbc-news-at-one-30062022

I agree with FINA on this also.

At least £20, as I’ve just cancelled my subscription.

Stick it to the person.

They’ll survive without your sub.

Panic over, I just spent £20 in the ST shop

Shouldn’t we sacrifice fairness at the elite levels in society to offer greater opportunities to those who others?

This makes a lot of sense to me.

Which alludes to another misconception or distortion of the issue. There are those that believe that simply ‘identifying’ as a woman is enough to count as transitioning. I could identify as a woman today but I don’t think that should reasonably allow me to enter a womens’ category race tomorrow. Transitioning is a process and it takes time and a lot of support from professionals both medical and psychological. It can take years.

This suggests that you already have your own (probably woolly if you're like me) definition of what counts as transitioning. However, that probably doesn't match everyone else's. In the meantime, "trans" is being extended to folk who do no more than "identify" as a woman and I don't see how any non-Elite sport is expected to police that.

The inclusion of transwomen in womens sport also skips over the whole issue of the various other genders and how we also accommodate them. As I said up-thread somewhere, I think the Irish currently recognise 7 genders. Do we simply allow folk to compete (as it's competition, not participation that seems to be the problem) in whatever category they want, in which case let's just call it Open and have done with it.

Panic over, I just spent £20 in the ST shop

Phew! Mark was just about to cancel beer at your desk Friday.

Shouldn’t we sacrifice fairness at the elite levels in society to offer greater opportunities to those who others?

We don’t have to though do we, you can have one without the other. Banning trans folks from elite sport doesn’t have to take away any other opportunities within society

Being able to compete in Elite sport isn’t a god given right. Way I see it if you are born into the ‘wrong sex’ (probably not the right term) then when it comes to elite sport that’s just tough titty. Just like I was born into a body that is not genetically gifted enough to be an elite sports person. I accept that.

Well one thing we have learnt is that simplistic slogans have no place in this debate.

My view is that in a world where discrimination is (in theory!) outlawed, there is little reason to not allow people to identify pretty much as they please socially and professionally. And that extends to recreational activities like parkrun where participants can identify as they choose.

Once you have a restricted category "women" such as competitive sport which discriminates by design, then it's a whole can of worms, not just for trans but also intersex/dsd athletes. It's important to acknowledge that there simply isn't a solution that everyone will be happy with. My view, which is certainly open to change, is that the category needs to be defined in such a way that the roughly half of the population for who it's not remotely debatable, needs to see themselves on a continuum with the elites. Just as I'll never be Froome or Usain Bolt but I can see them as just more specialised and talented versions of me. I doubt many young girls who enjoy swimming look at Lia Thomas and think, I could grow up to be like her. I think the fairness to all those young girls (even though less than 0.1% of them actually will ever become elite swimmers) is more important than the fairness to Lia.

An appeal to fairness is always going to be a strong, emotive argument. As a father to a little girl who loves cycling, I have to ask myself what sort of future I want for her.

Is it a world where there's a very, very small chance that she'll be beaten at elite-level sport by someone with a physiological advantage over her that arises from their birth gender?

Or is it a world where the definition of a "woman" is policed by intrusive, dehumanising measures like genital inspections, people's attempts to live life as they choose are viewed through a lens of bad faith, and anyone who wants to compete in a sport while adopting a new gender identity gets monstered by an online mob?

Not much contest really...

Just like I was born into a body that is not genetically gifted enough to be an elite sports person. I accept that.

You shouldn't have to, we need a class for middle aged overweight biffers. Where do I sign up? 🤣

. Shouldn’t we sacrifice fairness at the elite levels in society to offer greater opportunities to those who others?

I'm not altogether comfortable with saying it, but this may need to be the short term fix while longer solutions are developed as the science evolves for each sport.

Would trans athletes be happy sacrificing personal glory to promote sporting inclusion at grass roots level? Would be an interesting problem. And I guess without visible trans athletes at the top level, where are the role models for those starting at the bottom of the pyramid? So many questions within questions.

What’s the rules for people who were born non-binary?

Posted 1 hour ago
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thestabiliser
Free Member
(Probably all sorts of wrong in how I’ve phrased that)

Athletics faced this conundrum with middle distance 800m runner Caster Semenya a few years ago - the IAF mandated she (and athletes in similar positions) had to take medication to lower their testosterone levels to compete.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

 

In this case, talk is cheap.

But not talking about it is cheaper.

“For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong.”

Oh, I like that. Where's it from?

Fairness cuts both ways. Trans have a biological advantage in some sports.

But <devils advocate> isn't that the point of sport? Tall people have a biological advantage in Basketball. Clever people have a biological advantage in Chess. Is sport's sole existence not to prove that you're better than someone else?

Is sport’s sole existence not to prove that you’re better than someone else?

Normally we shun the idea of taking drugs to enhance one's competitiveness.

Is sport’s sole existence not to prove that you’re better than someone else?

Is there a top level, world class sport that has a truly open category that doesn't split competitors by gender? Genuine question? I'm struggling to think of one.

I often think about the challenge the Williams sisters made many years ago that they'd beat any male pro-tennis star outside the top 200. Up stepped 203rd ranked Karsten Baarsch, who downed a couple of beers and finished his cigarette, then promptly thrashed the pair of them one after the other.

Is there a top level, world class sport that has a truly open category that doesn’t split competitors by gender?

Showjumping?

https://theconversation.com/equal-but-not-the-same-equestrian-sports-unisex-approach-hides-inequity-64054

Also, it’s been reasonably questioned as to whether we have any actual skin in the game here beyond just putting out a statement of position. In fact we do in so much as we’ve been approached for help in a dispute about the inclusion of trans competitors in a small mtb event that I will not name here. We could either claim total neutrality on the issues or take a side – for better or worse (I note some subs cancellations) we decided on the latter.

I hadn't read the article, mainly because I very rarely read any articles at all on the site.
I had, however, cynically thought it seemed a bit of a clickbait article title but had a read of the forum post anyway.
I'll happily hold my hands up and say I was wrong and the reasoning given above by Mark makes perfect sense. I don't think STW do everything right but in this case I think it's a really good discussion point and hopefully it'll develop into a good adult discussion about trans athletes in sport without the same few people turning it into the shit-show that many good threads become.

I’m struggling to think of one.

Motorsport.

Showjumping?

I wouldn't know but I'll take your word. Possibly horse racing too?

But lets be honest, the horse is doing the bulk of the work there. I can't imagine gender offers an advantage. Most male jockeys are slightly overgrown children.

I wouldn’t know but I’ll take your word. Possibly horse racing too?

You should read the linked article. There's an interesting take on whether or not having one Open category is really such a good idea.

Normally we shun the idea of taking drugs to enhance one’s competitiveness.

Yes we do. There's exemptions for medical use in various sports for various drugs of course which allows for the same drug being considered cheating for one athlete and not for another. Also, if someone transitions for sporting benefit then that could be considered cheating and we have procedures and rules in place to counter cheating - they may need to be modified and expanded of course, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that rules can be developed to counter that risk.

Is there any sport where a Women has a better record than any man, I personally can't think of any?

But <devils advocate> isn’t that the point of sport? Tall people have a biological advantage in Basketball. Clever people have a biological advantage in Chess. Is sport’s sole existence not to prove that you’re better than someone else?

You can't really have this discussion without looking at the Caster Semenya story. She's a biological woman who, due to a genetic quirk, produces more testosterone than other women. Some men also produce more testosterone that others but for Caster, something that, in a man, would make them exceptional, makes her an aberration that needs banning/chemically supressing. It's not a trans story but has relevance.

Playing devil's advocate myself, around the trans/fairness debate I'd also ask, what about boxing and combat sports? Many decades (potentially, prior to transitioning) of muscular and skeletal development provides not only a significant advantage to trans athletes but could also pose a significant danger to opponents.

Shouldn’t we sacrifice fairness at the elite levels in society to offer greater opportunities to those who others?

I'm going to repost the BBC news report on trans athletes in cycling in case it got missed, it's primarily about trans athletes competing in cycling after there was a ban put in place, but does touch on the effect it has on their competitors. Fairness in this context is a bit like 'positive discrimination', you can't have it without negative discrimination; personally the fairness/unfairness argument is a tough one.

The report starts at about 25:30 -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0018srh/bbc-news-at-one-30062022

The trans athlete debate is really tricky. Personally I don't think that there's necessarily a 'right' answer so it's always going to be contentious.

Yeah, a couple of folk in the FINA thread pointed out that some jurisdictions wouldn't shy away from "encouraging" promising athletes to transition in the search for national success. Given that many of the elite sports are already engaging pre-teens it's not hard to see how this could be done. One only has to look at the history of ladies gymnastics.

Sports has always been divided by sex. In theatre, men have commonly played female roles, and occasionally vice versa.

Men have commonly played female roles because women weren't allowed to.

Why? Do they just think there’s a nip and tuck a change of clothes and some make up?

I think some people believe exactly this. The concept of "identifying" hasn't helped with the hard of thinking who hear 'trans' and picture Little Britain's "I'm a lady" sketches.

But here's a question to those who cling to the idea that trans women are still really men: Would you be happy for trans men (who by the same logic are still really women) to compete in women's events?

Because this is where it all falls down, you can't have it both ways. If you don't want trans women in 'women's spaces' like female toilets, then you're advocating having trans men in women's loos instead. Or we have what someone suggested on the previous thread, we differentiate between cis women and everyone else. Then we stick all trans people of whichever gender in with the blokes and open up a whole new can of safeguarding issues.

(WTF is the obsession with toilets anyway? Can't we just have toilets? We're all the same when we're having a poo.)

Normally we shun the idea of taking drugs to enhance one’s competitiveness.

Yet, trans women are likely taking drugs which reduce their competitiveness.

I applaud STW for taking a view point, rather than burying their heads in the sand.

In my view - in regular life, have at it. Nobody should be able to control someone else's life or body. Whatever you define yourself as, I'm happy to oblige.

In amateur sport, I agree with the above poster, that wishes for people to find their appropriate level and play in a team or league that suits that.
For example, I play cricket to a not particularly high standard. As a 30 something man, I will often find myself playing with and against county over50, county U15, and womens county players. Obviously this is a non contact sport that is heavily, but not solely, skill based. Dividing the sport into age and gender categories is not necessary.

Professional sport though, is a different matter. Look at MTB. It was noteworthy on the few occasions when Rachel Atherton posted a qualifying time that would have qualified in the mens elite field. In XC, women do one lap fewer than men in about the same time. The back end of the mens field usually get lapped and pulled from the course.
Someone who is just about qualifying for a mens world cup could therefore be a solid podium contender in womens.
These people already put their bodies on the line and potentially risk their lives in pursuit of their elite sport career, and the resulting money and lifestyle.

If the non sport related social stigma was removed (and see above, I sincerely hope it will be) then is it too much of a stretch to think someone might be willing to do that to switch from an also-ran man living out of his van in the pits; to the life of one of the top pro women? And in doing so, what does that do to all of the born-as-a-woman competitors, and future cometitors?

No. It enhances their competitiveness. Without the drugs they'd be competing against men. Taking the drugs allows them to compete against women, where they may have a better chance of success. It was asked above but not answered - how many trans-men are successfully competing at higher levels of their sport?

(WTF is the obsession with toilets anyway? Can’t we just have toilets? We’re all the same when we’re having a poo.)

Dunno. Ask a woman (if you can find any on STW now).

Can somebody tell me why trans women don't just compete against men? Everybody knows they were born male, it's an irreversable fact. Would save an awful lot of bother if they just played against their birth gender.

EDIT - deleted. I have realised that this is just a troll by STW to get more clicks/engagment. V clever.

No kudos to STW for the click bait. Easy enough statement to make when they have no skin in the game. It's abit like saying you for world peace - simplistic claptrap.

When it comes to competitive sport, trans women are more like men than they are women. I don't understand why the trans lobby can't just accept this. If you're trans, then lots of competitive sport is probably not going to be open to you unless you want to compete against men.

That's sad, but lots of sports aren't open to a lot of people - those with disabilities, those with long term injuries etc. I can no longer run anymore, competitively or otherwise due to injury. It's just something I've accepted.

There is no way that trans women can ever compete with woman on a totally level playing field.

At the moment it seems that there is acceptance of transwomen in women's sport as long as they don't win or place too highly - as someone who used to run quite alot of cross country competitively, but never really came 1st 2nd or 3rd, that would really piss me off. I used to strive to finish in the top 10 or top 20 or whatever my goal was.

I have realised that this is just a troll by STW to get more clicks/engagment. V clever.

I don't think it has yet been linked on Facebook 🙂

It seems a very weak statement from STW, hinting but providing no detail on what practical position they'd support.

At face value, comments like "...policies which allow Trans women – and men – to participate at all levels of sport" and "sport is for all" could mean anything, e.g. support of the FINA's policy or opposition to it.

A better and bolder statement would be whether or not they support FINA's plan, and what exactly in Nadine Dorries's quoted statement they take issue with.

@5plusn8 you're right tbh. Don't know why we're bothering engaging.

It's one of the main problems with the way the media works in Britain - even most of the junior staff at the tabloids, have views so out of kilter with the majority of people in the UK.

I find STW's desperation to be ram the culture war down our throats really exhausting. I just enjoy reading about cycling, and have no interest in the various crusade.

Someone will be along in a minute to tell me that my views aren't welcome.

"It’s one of the main problems with the way the media works in Britain – even most of the junior staff at the tabloids, have views so out of kilter with the majority of people in the UK."

I'm going to let you into a little secret... journalists write what they are paid to write.
They may or may not agree with what they write/edit but they often don't have time to think about it. And, you know, mortgage to pay.

Someone who is just about qualifying for a mens world cup could therefore be a solid podium contender in womens.

Could they really? Post transition, being bigger and heavier than their cis-competition, but having substantially reduced their hgb capacity and thus their endurance and W/kg - I'm not absolutely convinced. Look at the Pippa York cafe ride. I've saved to the right point for you. It'll take five or six minutes of your time.

Would you be happy for trans men (who by the same logic are still really women) to compete in women’s events?

It would depend on transition, wouldn't it? Exogenous testosterone falls under doping, but other than that why would a female person not be eligible to compete in female sports categories regardless of how they identify?

Because this is where it all falls down, you can’t have it both ways. If you don’t want trans women in ‘women’s spaces’ like female toilets, then you’re advocating having trans men in women’s loos instead.

Not at all, as I'm sure you know already. This isn't a symmetrical situation, so claiming that people supporting women's right are pushing for a symmetrical solution is a deliberate straw man.

(WTF is the obsession with toilets anyway? Can’t we just have toilets? We’re all the same when we’re having a poo.)

Also a straw man. Toilets are the least important contested space, being rather less of a concern than changing rooms, prisons, abuse and domestic violence shelters, rape counseling services, sleeping accommodation, hospital wards, and no doubt several other things.

When it comes to competitive sport, trans women are more like men than they are women.

@Joe, I don't think that's true - I suspect as others have said, the drop in testosterone has a pretty big impact quite early. But it's also not actually that important either - in most sports there's ~10% difference in performance gap between men and women. Even if only 5% of that advantage is retained (I.e. 0.5% overall advantage) when someone transitions male to female, there's still a problem in truly* elite sports. I'd be very surprised if the retained advantage is only 5%, too.

So your comment wasn't true and it wasn't relevant to the debate. Perhaps that was the aim was to make you seem bigoted? Or at least nail your colours to the mast. But yes, it's STW who're determined to create a culture war 🙄

I find STW’s desperation to be ram the culture war down our throats really exhausting.

* I say "truly" elite sports. There's probably a better way to describe it, but I mean sports with a packed talented field, where winning requires physical power over skill and luck.

It would depend on transition, wouldn’t it? Exogenous testosterone falls under doping, but other than that why would a female person not be eligible to compete in female sports categories regardless of how they identify?

You're just picturing a girl in jeans and short hair, aren't you?

@superficial spare me. If it's 0.5% it's too much. It's not even elite sports. It's even your local parkrun.

Why should a woman who works hard, and races hard to place highly be forced down the ranks?

Strange how there is no issue of trans-men in elite sport isn't it? The problem simply doesn't exist. Funny that.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

Some YouGov figures to help inform the conversation

Athletics faced this conundrum with middle distance 800m runner Caster Semenya a few years ago – the IAF mandated she (and athletes in similar positions) had to take medication to lower their testosterone levels to compete.