Pivot Shuttle SL: 60Nm, 430Wh, 16.5kg, £12.5k

Yet another stupidly over priced bike.

Can you do a review of the cheaper version ie the one that people might be able to afford ie £3k ?

Yet another stupidly over priced bike.

It’s not over priced, they’ll sell every one they make. Whether everyone can afford/justify one is another matter.

Can you do a review of the cheaper version ie the one that people might be able to afford ie £3k ?

Lolz.

Base model is £8.5k.

Honda Rally 300, 20.1kw, 26.6Nm, 153kg, £6.4k
https://www.honda.co.uk/motorcycles/range/adventure/crf300-rally/specifications.html

It’s not over priced, they’ll sell every one they make. Whether everyone can afford/justify one is another matter.

Ok fair point if they sell them all they are not over priced, just a ripoff/value for money as muted by RustyNissan's post.

This is what put me off buying STW, they only review the most stupidly expensive bits of kit.

This is what put me off buying STW, they only review the most stupidly expensive bits of kit.

'our bike came equipped with SRAM AXS, Factory Fox and finishing kit made from the tears of a unicorn' 😂

To be fair £3k buys you an enduro bike weighing possibly more than this ebike so look at it like that and it’s good value, less than £10k for a motor weighing 0g!

When we go to buy a bike we search out reviews of it and demo it etc so if a magazine is going to write a review of something random I’d take this over a Bossnut for example, far more interesting

If a car mag reviews a Dacia and a Tesla I know which one I’ll read first

Honda made a $5.5 billion dollar profit last year. Now I don’t know how much Pivot made, but with their rip off prices, it would be more than that, right?

Honda made a $5.5 billion dollar profit last year. Now I don’t know how much Pivot made, but with their rip off prices, it would be more than that, right?

Obviously, because a tiny volume MTB company is directly comparable to the world's largest motorcycle manufacturer, not to mention the car side, lawnmowers etc etc etc.

Honda Rally 300, 20.1kw, 26.6Nm, 153kg, £6.4k

Ducati V4 Superleggera, £90,000.
https://www.dmcmoto.co.uk/detail/2020-ducati-superleggera-v4

Top of the range things are expensive shocker.

I do wish people would stop with the 'you could buy a car/motorbike/small house for that!' arguments, you can say that about anything that's in the top few % of the price range - watches, computer graphics cards, etc.

If a car mag reviews a Dacia and a Tesla I know which one I’ll read first

Me too. I'm never going to buy a Tesla, so why do I care what it's like?

This is what put me off buying STW, they only review the most stupidly expensive bits of kit.

Whilst this isn't entirely true (recent Decathlon jacket being a good example), I'm going to say that I have some sympathy with this. I absolutely get that there's an 'aspirational' angle to these kind of reviews, which is fine, but more reviews of actual stuff people might actually buy would be a welcome addition.

If a car mag reviews a Dacia and a Tesla I know which one I’ll read first

I dont disagree that you need balance of reviews to work out if the expensive bike is worth the premium over the cheaper. But this mag only ever reviews the expensive and never balances it with the affordable.

Honda made a $5.5 billion dollar profit last year. Now I don’t know how much Pivot made, but with their rip off prices, it would be more than that, right?

So are you suggesting that because Pivot are a small company they have developed a bike with a big margin to up their profits?

Its the equivalent of Ferrari in some ways, everyone knows it doesnt cost £3m to make a Ferrari, but they keep the numbers low, and the prestige high so certain people will buy.

Not many people can afford a Ferrari (Pivot at £12k) but there are much much much cheaper alternatives at a fraction of the cost that do 95% of the same job.

But this mag only ever reviews the expensive and never balances it with the affordable.

This, and every other mag/youtuber, can only review what the manufacturers offer them for review.

But this mag only ever reviews the expensive and never balances it with the affordable.

I don't think they get a choice as to which model they get sent for review... And as with any review models (cars, motorbikes, cycles) the manufacturer will normally send out a high end model to show the best of the new tech off.

Look at any car review. It's never the base model that's reviewed, it's at least the mid-high model, often with all the options ticked.

However - it doesn't matter really. In this instance, the base frame/motor/suspension design is the same, so what if it's got blingy components bolted into it?

Similar to the 12k specialized ebike I do wonder what value the company is putting on the frame/brand, as when you remove the components costs your still left with a 6-7k frame. Considering a 'standard' pivot frame are around 4k, a grand for a batty and another for the motor still seems excessive to me.

I'd love an ebike, but the lack of frame kit or frame only options means I'll not be able to buy one. I generally build bikes component by component and upgrade the frame every 3 years or so, as it works out more economically viable for me.

Honda made a $5.5 billion dollar profit last year. Now I don’t know how much Pivot made, but with their rip off prices, it would be more than that, right?

But that's not the point being made, it's why can't ST seem to cover better value kit.

I'm sure the Honda would be ruinously expensive if they made a carbon frame and built it with CNC'd aftermarket everything too. But then MCN still review the £6k one you can buy on the shop floor.

When we go to buy a bike we search out reviews of it and demo it etc so if a magazine is going to write a review of something random I’d take this over a Bossnut for example, far more interesting

Is it though?

If the interest is that it's supposedly the bleeding edge of tech, then the engineering really needs to go further than mentioning a brand name for the parts and a few buzz words. Just as I'd be more interested to see how Dacia managed to knock several thousand pounds off the RRP of a Renault by attention to details than some overgrown manchild packing their 800 words of copy with more superlatives about how fast a tesla goes in a straight-line (a teardown of the motors and battery on the other hand ...) .

And as with any review models (cars, motorbikes, cycles) the manufacturer will normally send out a high end model to show the best of the new tech off.

Brands would love to send out more bikes with bottom end kit to review… but then some reviewers would focus on the short comings of that kit ($350 shock not as controllable as a $850 shock etc) rather than the bit that is unique to the brand and common through the range of build options… ie the frame.

But in this case… this isn’t a review, or even a first ride, or a quick look… just news of a new bike. There’s no getting past the price of these bikes though. Even given everything costing more that goes into making them.

So why not review this bike along side something like an Orbea Rise H15 ? (which is still a pricey bike) but less than half the price of this bike.

Orbea Rise H15: 60Nm, 540Wh, 20.0kg, £5.5k

That would make for an interesting review. Would 4kg justify the increased price and less powerful battery ?

‘Hello Orbea, we’d like to do a comparison review of your £5.5k bike with a £12.5k Pivot, to see which is best, you game?’

‘Errr’

I don’t think they get a choice as to which model they get sent for review

I don't buy this. If STW decided they were going to do a, say, 'get into biking with our entry level hardtail test', or a "where would we put our £2k Cycle to Work money" type feature, and approached the brands with that, they would definitely be given stuff to test as the brands have those bikes to sell.

‘Hello Orbea, we’d like to do a comparison review of your £5.5k bike with a £12.5k Pivot, to see which is best, you game?’

That's about as missmatched as the average ST grouptest TBH.

So why not review this bike along side something like an Orbea Rise H15 ?

A very good idea.

But this here little bit of news isn’t a review.

Oh, and the Rise has been covered a lot by Singletrack. Didn’t Mark single it out as his game changer bike of the year type thing?

‘get into biking with our entry level hardtail test’

Isn’t Ben doing a piece on how cheaply you can get into mountain biking, riding a real mountain route? There was a news story showing the affordable bike and explaining the plan.

I’d love an ebike, but the lack of frame kit or frame only options means I’ll not be able to buy one.

Pole do one, the new Bird/Ethic will be available as one, some shops are selling Specialized frame kits. They are out there. Or buy the base model, sell all the bits you don’t want and build as you like, over as long as you like, seeing as you’ll have a functioning bike rather than a pile of bits waiting to be finished.

Isn’t Ben doing a piece on how cheaply you can get into mountain biking, riding a real mountain route? There was a news story showing the affordable bike and explaining the plan.

Ah, really? Well, fair enough then.

**EDIT - I found it, and good on him/them

https://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/q-how-much-to-start-mountain-biking-a-605-00/

I don’t buy this. If STW decided they were going to do a, say, ‘get into biking with our entry level hardtail test’, or a “where would we put our £2k Cycle to Work money” type feature, and approached the brands with that, they would definitely be given stuff to test as the brands have those bikes to sell.

Yes that's true, but for new model launches, all the press outlets generally get sent the same model, with no choice as to which one they receive.

I will say though that the price of top end ebikes is getting a bit ridiculous - but then pivot bikes aren't exactly at the 'budget' end, the switchblade starts at £5700 ffs. Top model is £9k.

I’d love an ebike, but the lack of frame kit or frame only options means I’ll not be able to buy one.

Commencal do some as well but prices have gone up (I paid 2.5k including import duty for frame, e8000 motor, 504wh battery, charger 18 months ago)
https://www.commencal-store.co.uk/PBSCCatalog.asp?ActionID=67174912&PBCATID=3717857

It's still not going to be cheap though. Wouldn't be suprised if even the Bird frame only option is upwards of 4k. After 3 years when you come to sell, the warranty will have expired (motors aren't generally serviceable or repairable) and the battery will be quite worn, so the frame/motor/battery isn't going to be worth much.

I've bought a cargo ebike recently, and the hub motor and battery seem a lot cheaper and easier to deal with.

motors aren’t generally serviceable or repairable

Most are. It’s just shimano ones that aren’t.

After 3 years when you come to sell, the warranty will have expired (motors aren’t generally serviceable or repairable) and the battery will be quite worn, so the frame/motor/battery isn’t going to be worth much

The key thing I think, is will you be able to buy a replacement motor on its own? and for how much? (for what would then be 3+ year old tech). That risk and potential cost is part and parcel of buying a used MTB, meat or electric.

Would love to see the working for why the battery will be worn after 3 years. Say 150 cycles from full to 20% cpaacity, with slow recharging. Why would that wreck it? or is there something in emtb motor tech I am missing?

The key thing I think, is will you be able to buy a replacement motor on its own? and for how much? (for what would then be 3+ year old tech).

I did. Was £375, direct from Specialized (in return for the knackered motor) with a 2 year warranty.

Isn’t Ben doing a piece on how cheaply you can get into mountain biking, riding a real mountain route? There was a news story showing the affordable bike and explaining the plan.

Which is fair enough, but the way it's written makes it sound like a Top Gear challenge rather than a proper review of the best bikes in the £600-£1200 bracket.

I guess I'm just annoyed that I'm too old for mbuk, too bored of the 12month cycle of MBR articles, and too alienated by ST. Where's the articles for the 99% of people who will never buy an ebike or AXS/Di2 and just want to rag their £1k bikes up and down hills?

Price is an issue in every avenue of life, it's just priorities or lack of cash that change our buying preferences. I've had people going on about the madness of me spending 5k on an ebike, whilst they drive their 30k plus car, or go to disneyworld for a holiday.

No matter how many times i think that bikes are too expensive, i'll still see lots of people on top spec levos or kenevos at FoD each week, as well as many other bikes, i'd love to have something like this Pivot, but family and funds just don't stretch to that, so the giant will have to last another couple of years, or do the usual and in one months time break down after the warranty ends 😂

but more reviews of actual stuff people might actually buy would be a welcome addition.

But people do buy them and people reading STW buy them. Plenty of expensive ebikes amongst the readership.

Where’s the articles for the 99% of people who will never buy an ebike or AXS/Di2 and just want to rag their £1k bikes up and down hills?

All the articles that aren't about new bikes - which was most of them in the last mag.....

But people do buy them and people reading STW buy them. Plenty of expensive ebikes amongst the readership.

There's a handful of people I'd recognise as regular posters on e-bike threads. But the PSA: Bargain fork/jacket/helmet/shoes threads still seem more popular.

I just don't get the 'I can't stand STW because they dare acknowledge that there are expensive bikes and people do buy them' mindset. I have no intention of buying one, but enjoy reading the reviews.

Where’s the articles for the 99% of people who will never buy an ebike or AXS/Di2 and just want to rag their £1k bikes up and down hills?

thats the forums...

weekly riding pic thread, route discussions, how do I fix this bike from 2009.

But the PSA: Bargain fork/jacket/helmet/shoes threads still seem more popular.

They’re for stuff that’s discounted normally, not just ‘here’s a really good value (at RRP) product.’

I have no intention of buying one, but enjoy reading the reviews.

Exactly. I quite enjoyed watching the test drive of the new £2m Ferrari Daytona SP3. I doubt I'll ever be in the position to own one... 🤣

Personally, I don't read the mag as I find it quite boring.

I don't read the reviews of bikes like this as its just another E-bike with a hefty price tag. Means nothing to me. I popped in here as I wanted to see how many posts before someone said How Much!?!?!...

I read the one recently about the Nukeproofs, as thats interesting to me to see what kit you get on a bike that won't normally have a rediculous price tag attached to it.

Whilst 12.5 k a lot of cash, if you think that’s over priced then don’t look at the price of a top end road bike. 12.5k gets you a top end tarmac. It has no motor, no suspension, no fancy dropper. In fact it actually costs about a grand more than if you bought all the parts individually at rrp.

I’ve had people going on about the madness of me spending 5k on an ebike, whilst they drive their 30k plus car, or go to disneyworld for a holiday.

What’s the going rate of raising a kid from 0-18? £100k+? And plenty of people have more than one of those. But that’s another thread.

Whilst 12.5 k a lot of cash, if you think that’s over priced then don’t look at the price of a top end road bike. 12.5k gets you a top end tarmac. It has no motor, no suspension, no fancy dropper. In fact it actually costs about a grand more than if you bought all the parts individually at rrp.

The top end Tarmac is the most common bike in my Saturday riding group - 4 of them IIRC. Quite a few have been 'upgraded' as well..

I'm merely on a mid range £7k Orbea Orca....

I've had my "Sunday Best" road bike so long now the Tarmac crowd assume it's a deliberate retro statement and show an interest again 🤣

I just don’t get the ‘I can’t stand STW because they dare acknowledge that there are expensive bikes and people do buy them’ mindset. I have no intention of buying one, but enjoy reading the reviews.

Yeah, fair enough, and it's different strokes for different folks - personally I don't read them, as I don't really care what the bike's like, as I'll never buy it, but I get others are interested in what a top-end bike is like.

For me though it's not necessarily 'dream bike' type stuff, it's what seems to be the blind acceptance of the cost of 'general riding' stuff that winds me up more. I had a very mild spat with Mark a few months ago about a pair of Spesh shoes that were £180. Now, I think that's mental for something that is reasonably equivalent in structure and materials to a £80 skate pump. Or, being generous, a pair of approach shoes, which come in at about £120, and they'll have a waterproof membrane that the Spesh shoes didn't. Mark however thought it was a perfectly reasonable price for a "technical riding shoe" (his words). That just says to me that they've drunk a bit too much of the marketing Kool-Aid, and lost some of the objectivity that they used to have.

But, saying all that, if the recent Decathlon jacket/cheap bike test stuff is a sign of things changing, then brill, more power to their elbow.

Shoes and helmet reviews are almost the most annoying things in any mag because unless it fits it doesn't matter how much of a bargain it is at £180, it's useless. You could ask is a £180 spesh shoe worth the extra over the £40/£80/£120 price point shoe from Spesh. But comparing a £180 Spesh shoe to a £180 Bont shoe is pointless.

Which is a roundabout way of justifying why I have a whole collection of cycling shoes that all individually cost more than my frame!

Shoes and helmet reviews are almost the most annoying things in any mag because unless it fits it doesn’t matter how much of a bargain it is at £180

Planet X do fantastic helmets for £15. I compared a leading brand that looked very similar to the Planet X one, and I found the Planet X one more comfortable and build quality just as good.

Yet another stupidly over priced bike.

I feel this.

I do wonder if the mag needs a bit of a reboot on its review sections (which I appreciate are less of the mag than they were, which is brilliant).....or it could end up going a bit Top Gear - just sub in super bikes for super cars. Some reviews of bikes with interesting concepts or tech which might trickle down or are just class acts of workmanship worthy of a lear but pitch them as just that - objet d'art. Then some different paced and pitched reviews that are much more realistic as actual buying choices for the readership. Turn them into interesting articles about a trip or entering an event. Be a pioneer for less is more and 'contained consumerism' rather than driving the ever increasing false premise that this sport can only be enjoyed by those with significant desposible income. That's where the market will be for the foreseeable as we all hand our wages directly over to the energy firms. An article about refreshing and upgrading rather than buying new for economic and sustainability reasons maybe, and is it both more sustainable and economic. Or go to the other arm of the TopGear formula - 3 bike journos given £1k each and let loose on eBay and Facebook marketplace to arm yourself for a weekend away - who's purchase generates the most smiles.

I had a very mild spat with Mark a few months ago about a pair of Spesh shoes that were £180.

Pretty sure my shoes cost over £200! Shimano S-phyre things.

15 years ago I probably spent £80 on top end the Spesh body Geom shoes, but they're over £200 now.

Thinking about it, my winter road boots were also over £200 IIRC.

Mark however thought it was a perfectly reasonable price for a “technical riding shoe” (his words).

Yep - that's the going rate and they sell like hot cakes.....

and lost some of the objectivity that they used to have.

No, they're spot on with where the industry is going - lots of very expensive bike parts / accessories coming to market and all selling very well.

Planet X do fantastic helmets for £15. I compared a leading brand that looked very similar to the Planet X one, and I found the Planet X one more comfortable and build quality just as good.

My current lid is a £30 Planet X thing - doesn't quite fit my head though, so keep meaning to find something better..

No, they’re spot on with where the industry is going – lots of very expensive bike parts / accessories coming to market and all selling very well

Well, they will sell well if the 'objective' journos that people look to for advice tell those people that what they're paying is a perfectly reasonable amount. If the journos said "hang on, isn't that twice the price of a basically similar skate pump, or 50% more than a technically similar approach shoe, how do you justify that Mr Specialized?", then people might think differently.

Yep – that’s the going rate and they sell like hot cakes…..

Sell like hot cakes, or just sell though?

I'd bet there's a normal distribution of shoe prices Vs sales with a huge majority of people buying the £60-£80 mid range. I'm sure they sell the £200 ones (after all, I've got a pair of the older R171's because they only made those or the very cheapest in a wide fit) but they won't be the most popular (even if all your mates have them, that just says you hang around in a different circle).

then people might think differently.

Unlike spending £10k of a Rolex or £1000s on a set of top end Gold Clubs, or £200k for a mid range Ferrari, which people have been doing for years?

Cycling as become more popular, which is a good thing. As a result of a larger pool of clients you not only have more 'low end' customers, but you also have more 'high end' customers, who are happy / able to buy a £200 pair of shoes (I couldn't even get the colour I wanted, they'd sold out completely).

Personally I think this is probably a good thing as you'll get more high end things being developed for "deeper walleted" customers from which new technology will filter down to the mid range stuff.

With most industries eg cars / aviation, the high end products generate the most margin which end up subsidising the low end stuff, so you actually benefit from it even if you never purchase it.

I would love reviews that help you make an informed decision for examples lights.

A few years back STW tested lights

I think the range was something like £600 down to the budget 'bargain' £150.

I've never spent £600 on lights but I have bought Aldi lights and Amazon £40 things.

The Aldi was crap and lasted about a month, the Amazon is still going strong.

Its that kind of review I would love to see.

Sell like hot cakes, or just sell though?

Do you get equally bothered by how many Rolexes sell or how many Ferraris?

It's just choice. Choose not to buy it is fine, but to get upset that other people can/do is slightly odd behaviour.....

Do you get equally bothered by how many Rolexes sell or how many Ferraris?

It’s just choice. Choose not to buy it is fine, but to get upset that other people can/do is slightly odd behaviour…..

You are missing the point. I don't think the mood is anti well healed people buying expensive things. It's a fixation of a magazine (or rather this magazine) spending too many words on these things. Mark and co clearly know their demagraphic better than I do....but is it the Rolex buyer who the mag is aimed at now? A sort of Tatler for bike riders.

I break things down to what we know they cost. Fork costs this much, shock that, wheels this etc etc.

It's a bad deal, not worth its asking price, and it's not going to be doing anything more special that any other eBike designed for offroad use.

With most industries eg cars / aviation, the high end products generate the most margin which end up subsidising the low end stuff, so you actually benefit from it even if you never purchase it.

You know that's not how it works?

You spend all your money on some super project (Bugatti, Dura Ace), spend money marketing it, then sell R8's (ultegra) off the back of those, A3's off the back of those (105), Golf (Tiagra) and finally Octavia's (Sora), which fund your next project. Same reason any company gets into motorsport, Yamaha aren't funding their WSB/BSB/MotoGP efforts off the back of a few M1 sales, R1, or even MT09's, it'll be their scooters and 400cc bikes doing the heavy lifting on the balance sheet.

Yamaha aren’t funding their WSB/BSB/MotoGP efforts off the back of a few M1 sales, R1, or even MT09’s, it’ll be their scooters and 400cc bikes doing the heavy lifting on the balance sheet.

but to take this back to bikes, this would imply that practical hybrids, RS gold mtbs and sora road bikes will be funding our off road dirt queens and sunday best cafe runs.
And yet... the bikes come out similar price, whether its from a multidiscipline brand like spesh or giant, or a niche product only brand like Pivot or commencal.

Where's Guy Kes to settle this debate once and for all.

🤡🤣

And now the new Evil Epocalypse. 1 model. £10.2k.

You know that’s not how it works?

Yep it's exactly how it works - with BMW most of the margin is in the top end models, base models are not very profitable - which is why they de-prioritised them over the top end models during the chip shortage.

Premium models = higher profit margin: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bmw-cfo-luxury-idUSKBN1WP1MS

Prioritise premium models: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/10/bmw-says-2021-profit-surged-as-it-favored-higher-margin-vehicles-during-chip-shortage.html

Brand halo products, which is what you're alluding to, is a separate issue - bling models add brand cachet, but they also have a higher % margin than base models.

The reality is in many cases none, or very few people, have actually even seen one let alone actually ridden one. These types of article as little ore than a copy paste from the press release email.

I also expect that in the overall scheme of things STW are not that high on the list of magazines globally to send the newest stuff to first. That’s not meant as a criticism just a fact of life. If you were a manufacturer with a finite number of bikes to lend to jurnos then your going to give them to the ones with the biggest audience and that ain’t STW

Yep it’s exactly how it works – with BMW most of the margin is in the top end models, base models are not very profitable – which is why they de-prioritised them over the top end models during the chip shortage.

Individually, but when they're not limited in the number they can build by the shortage of one common part they'll be making more money selling hundreds of thousands of 1-series compared to the comparative handful of 7-series they'll make.

Surron do non pedally off road ebikes for £5k. Complete with fox 40 forks etc.