Pinion E-Drive System: E-Bike Gearbox Motor

Game changer and start of the next generation of e-bikes.

I'm going to need one with the chainring on the opposite side*.

Jack shafts and high pivots FTW.

*How Dave Weagle managed to patent putting two chains on the same side I'll never know.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/dave-weagle-patents-high-pivot-drivetrain-system.html

Wow that must have been lots of development! Keen to see if it's the gamechanger it seems it is!

Finally! MGU seems obvious, but taking some time to come to fruition.

any updates from
https://www.effigear.com/en/content/24-smart-e-bike-system
https://www.intra-drive.com/

That's been a long while coming - was on their road map when they launched the P1/18. Lots to like about my old Pinion bike, the lack of weight on the rear wheel significantly improved the suspension action vs the same bike with conventional gears and the weight distribution felt great.

Certainly sounds like the obvious marrying up - any previous negatives of gearboxes (real or percived) largely negated by the electric motor.

That e-bike gearbox motor in a Nicolai/GeoMetron G1 please. Plus a lottery win.

Game changer and start of the next generation of e-bikes.

Where are the 'big players' like SRAM and Shimano on a central gearbox?
Even smaller but bigger than Pinion, where companies like Mircroshift and Suntour?

combines a wear-free electric motor

That looks outstanding. Want one!

That e-bike gearbox motor in a Nicolai/GeoMetron G1 please. Plus a lottery win.

I was thinking more a Cotic Flare Max e-Pinion and a lottery win.
Plus of course a commuter / town bike. And another lottery win.

Hell. Yes.

As a pinion gearbox owner and lover, I've been looking forward to this coming out, so long as the cost isn't extreme this will take off hugely.

Looks like a gamechanger but 4+kgs?!?!?

Do like the idea of it having electronic shifting though. Very smart.

This is awesome - what would be even cooler is if you could retro fit this system to your existing ebike. As you've already got mounts for a motor there, surely that can't be an impossibility?

Assuming it works well, I think this will bring gearboxes to the mainstream

Cool to see, but what it says to me is: "Hold off another few years on getting an eeb, and see what else is in the pipeline in terms of engine/gearbox units."

Can I ask a question to the eebers here?

These units come in 9 or 12-speed versions. How many ratios do you feel you actually need as a minimum? Could the motor assist mean you might get away with 7? 5? Even 3? Especially if the assist was engineered to respond variably to pedal input?

Cool to see, but what it says to me is: “Hold off another few years on getting an eeb, and see what else is in the pipeline in terms of engine/gearbox units.”

Hold off a few years and see what their reliability and warranty policy is like, would be my thinking.

This is where e-bikes have always needed to go. I'm waiting for the aggro DH/Gnarpoon versions.

The reasons I don't have an e-bike yet are they they're horribly overpriced, unacceptably unreliable, and they get slightly better every year.

By the time I want one they'll hopefully be proper good.

Right then. This on a Nicolai please.

Hope this can be maintained and repaired rather than binned like Shimano.

Right then. This on a Nicolai please

I’m going to be following the Eurobike coverage to see who has one of these on a bike. Currently only seen brands I don’t recognise

there's quite obviously a source of power from the big ol' battery to allow for the electronic shifting

but will we see this be added as a feature to the regular accoustic pinion? might fancy a zerode if it is...

Looks like a gamechanger but 4+kgs?!?!?

A friend happens to have a bare E8000 motor in his garage and reports that it's 3kg alone. Add in the rest of the drivechain and, as the article says, you're at approximately the same weight.

My big question is long-term support from Pinion. I know a number of people with motors that have died outside of warranty and there's nothing that can be done. Do Pinion have a track record of providing spares and servicing for more than two years?

Assuming it works well, I think this will bring gearboxes to the mainstream

IGH hubs are the norm in most european markets for the majority of bikes.  the UK is an outlier

Never sure of the etiquette of cross referencing another bike site, but anyway - interesting reading: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-ride-pinion-e-drive-system.html

Should be great if they can provide reliability and good warranties....

Cost will be interesting.

This is definitely the direction e-bikes should go in. Makes so much more sense

2.9kg and 2.6kg for of Bosch’s Performance Line CX and Shimano’s EP8 - plus another 1.8kg for a SRAM GX eagle drivetrain.

So at 4kg, it's a actually lighter... Not to mention the advantages of reducing unsprung mass with no rear mech or cassette on the rear wheel.

Do Pinion have a track record of providing spares and servicing for more than two years?

My hunch is the service and warranty on something they make themselves in Germany will be A1. The Q might be about which parts are user-serviceable or replaceable, but with a customer base in durability-minded riders already I'd be amazed if they hadn't designed this to take a chunk of market share by addressing the patchy rep or warranty concerns some other systems have.

Intradrive also working on something similar...> https://www.intra-drive.com/ < They should make one without the motor then we could convert old bikes to gearbox drive where the motor has broken

IGH hubs are the norm in most european markets for the majority of bikes.  the UK is an outlier

IGH hubs are for shopper bikes though. Not really the equivalent of a gearbox on a bike designed for schralping the gnarbar.

IGH hubs are for shopper bikes though. Not really the equivalent of a gearbox on a bike designed for schralping the gnarbar.

Unless you mount them in the middle and use them as the pivot point.

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/super-bike-zerode-g-1-downhill-bike/?image=4&type=gallery&gallery=1&embedded_slideshow=1

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/allen-millyard-part-1-2008.html

My hunch is the service and warranty on something they make themselves in Germany will be A1.

Yes, I'd expect mainland Europe service/ warranty will be excellent. Prob not so much here, I know you can get a Simplon in the UK - aren't Merlin selling all their over stock at the moment? but pretty sure Rotwild and Bulls don't have UK distribution. I'd expect any warranty issues to be extremely slow and laborious here unless they can get a really good distribution & dealer network set up.

I don't give 2 shits about ebikes, but this is damn cool. All the downsides associated with gearboxes on regular bikes disappear when you slap a motor in there. Properly smart move by Pinion, I reckon. Hopefully the added complexity won't compound with the astronomical failure rate of existing ebike motors.

*waits patiently for the electric shifting gubbins to be retrofitted to existing c1.12 gearboxes.

Piggy bank has a rather nervous look at the moment….

Looks like a great design that I'd love to have a go on.

Rotwild already have them displayed on their site but showing them with a chain rather than belt drive, which is a bit of a shame.

No mention of costs yet either

showing them with a chain rather than belt drive, which is a bit of a shame.

Rotwild are going with chains across all their pinion models apparently. Makes manufacturing and chain tension easier for one thing. Personally I'd go with a chain over a belt anyway.

This is a rather large step in the direction of emtb refinement IMO.

I've always wondered why ita not been done earlier - after all, the existing motors are all geared down internally anyway.

Who knows about the gates transmission stuff in the real world? Its clearly more expensive, but does it last any better than a traditional chain/sprocket system?

Belts.  Most folk find them longlasting and trouble free. @midlandtrailquestgraham destroyed them.   I opted for chain for easy repair.

I love the idea and it looks great. I'd question the range, who wants 600% gear range on an enduro MTB? 420% is perfect and covers very steep hills up to well over cut-off speed.

I’d question the range, who wants 600% gear range on an enduro MTB?

Me. It’s great for winching up stuff.

Would a belt limit the suspension design as it would be more diffficult to resolve chain growth/shrinkage with a tensioner as the shock moved through its stroke?

You can still use tensioner for a belt system.

Geometron / Nicolai used this on their pinion gearbox  G16. Someone local to me had one and I’m told the belt lasts ages and requires no looking after.

As do Zerode

Would a belt limit the suspension design as it would be more diffficult to resolve chain growth/shrinkage with a tensioner as the shock moved through its stroke?

Another reason to use a jack-shaft, I reckon.  Put the pivot wherever you want and keep the belt path simple.  Might need some sort of EBB at the pivot to correctly tension the Pinion to pivot belt which might be a bit complicated though...

Is this why Shimano have gone live with an auto shift ebike groupset, because they can not compete with this?

I'd take that range in a heartbeat.

I also have no interest in e bikes but this is a super cool development. The rear suspension must be buttery and one less thing to smash off of a rock. You would imagine much less servicing required, especially with a belt.

One step closer to a motorcross bikes…

BruceWee

Hold off a few years and see what their reliability and warranty policy is like, would be my thinking.

Or wait for their warranty policy....

My hunch is the service and warranty on something they make themselves in Germany will be A1. The Q might be about which parts are user-serviceable or replaceable, but with a customer base in durability-minded riders already I’d be amazed if they hadn’t designed this to take a chunk of market share by addressing the patchy rep or warranty concerns some other systems have.

I was watching the interview with Rob (rides eMTB) and they very specifically steer away ... they pre-empted by saying "The thing most of your viewers will ask" and then started talking about weight not warranty!!!

They aren't making the motor and he keeps mentioning 10's of thousands of km... and though their existing customer base might be durability minded their new one is "disposable bike" minded.

He managers to slip in a few lies on maintenance as well... saying the only maintenance is an oil change "like suspension"... conveniently "forgetting" suspension also needs seals replaced.

Given this is a lot more complex and involves electronics and eggs in baskets I'd want to see spares and such available from them. It remains to be seen of they offer the same warranty as the gear boxes or less.

"To activate the 5-year warranty on your Pinion P-Line, register the gearbox on our website.

Proof of an annual oil change is a prerequisite for any warranty claims. Service is documented on the warranty card that accompanies the gearbox and is included in your user manual."

@tomhoward a very long wait I think

*waits patiently for the electric shifting gubbins to be retrofitted to existing c1.12 gearboxes.

SMART.SHIFT GEARBOX
Pinion Smart.Shift gearboxes differ from the P and C line gearboxes in their internal structure. The shifting mechanisms and sensor technology are the main differences. Smart.Shift gearboxes are based on the C-line and are marked with an „i“. (C1.12i, C1.9i, C1.6i).

https://pinion.eu/en/smartshift/

@stevextc

He managers to slip in a few lies on maintenance as well… saying the only maintenance is an oil change “like suspension”… conveniently “forgetting” suspension also needs seals replaced.

Given this is a lot more complex and involves electronics and eggs in baskets I’d want to see spares and such available from them. It remains to be seen of they offer the same warranty as the gear boxes or less.

As far as I'm aware there are no 'service' items on e bike motors - you run them until they break and then either get them fixed or replaced.

As an ex owner of a Pinion (and Rohloffs) the oil change is a simple cheap process. Seal replacement is likely to be a factory/distributor job but based on what I've seen that might be an 10 yearly job rather than annual. (there was someone on here who managed to wreck a few Rohloffs but that was repeated total immersion in deep water.

I reckon their gearbox tech (and sealing) is well proven. The unknowns are around the motor and electrical systems through the bike (eg I've seen specialized bikes have issues with water getting into the top tube display/controls)

Or wait for their warranty policy….

2 years on the Pinion website.

@b33k34, if you follow their insta comments, and I do, there’s a lot of hinting that it’s coming in the future.

Whether they mean it’s a new GB with a stand-alone battery remains to be seen.

@chipps be a dear and probe them at eurobike? Pretty please 😊

Or wait for their warranty policy….

I think we all know that a company's stated policy and what they provide in reality are often two very different things.  Just search 'Giant warranty' on this forum for some recent examples.

Saying that, this can go both ways and many companies will often go beyond their stated warranty policy.

Trouble is, you don't know what it's like until a couple of years after the first units have been sold.

In fairness, I’ve heard nothing but good things about pinions gearbox warranty. Lots of ‘it’s not covered by warranty but send it back and we’ll have a look’ only for a fully refurbished gearbox to be returned, FOC.

Or wait for their warranty policy….

2 years on the Pinion website.

I must have missed that (or its new).
I can only find the gearbox warranty.
Seems like a gap between that and

The Pinion E-Drive System is therefore extremely durable whilst wear on the drive system is extremely low due to the elimination of external shifting components. The maintenance interval? A 10-minute oil-change after 10.000km. That’s it. Really.

In fairness, I’ve heard nothing but good things about pinions gearbox warranty. Lots of ‘it’s not covered by warranty but send it back and we’ll have a look’ only for a fully refurbished gearbox to be returned, FOC.

Yeah, if they can combine a genuinely superior product with 'above and beyond' levels of support then they could end up cornering the entire market.

Edit: depending on the price, of course 🙂

BruceWee

I think we all know that a company’s stated policy and what they provide in reality are often two very different things. Just search ‘Giant warranty’ on this forum for some recent examples.

Saying that, this can go both ways and many companies will often go beyond their stated warranty policy.

Trouble is, you don’t know what it’s like until a couple of years after the first units have been sold.

I am confident they will exceed the low bar set by Giant but whilst I'm sure it will be mechanically sound the electronics and sensors are another thing. This is the main end-of-life in other eMTB motors (bearings and stuff can usually be sourced and changed ... )

Even if they can survive financially if they end up with a high failure rate there is still the supply issue and not having a bike until its done. This pretty much seems to be what has caught out other motor manufacturers.

It seems to me like they are combining (in a sealed non serviceable box) the most reliable and least reliable things in MTB.

I still find it disturbing in the interview he doesn't acknowledge proper (full) suspension servicing rather dismisses it as an oil change.

Imo ime fork seals only need to be changed when leaking ie repair.  I've never had any leak and have always just changed the oil in forks.

Multiple forks over many years with annual oil changes

tjagain

Imo ime fork seals only need to be changed when leaking ie repair. I’ve never had any leak and have always just changed the oil in forks.

Multiple forks over many years with annual oil changes

I've got 4 sets of 2015 forks that have been mainly oil changes (technically 3 since last week when I gave a set away to a friend) and whilst I say "mainly" they have all been fully rebuilt once or twice.

I personally do mostly oil changes (warranty however requires sticking to the service schedule)... unless seals are damaged but the differences are

1/ it is because I can take the fork apart and actually check and not void my warranty AND
2/ I can buy service items (new seals).
3/ I can buy assemblies (from CSU to lowers to dampers) should it be damaged beyond the above
4) I can stick a fork on from ANY manufacturer into a "mount" (headset) that is standard. should damage be beyond the above

So whilst I'm confident pinion can make a long lasting gearbox... I'm far from confident about the electronics and sensors as no-one else has managed this in a MTB environment. When (not if) the motor fails you're totally screwed short of buying a new motor (assuming you can). You can't even as far as I can see keep using the gearbox unassisted ... or rip the whole thing out and stick on a rear mech and shifters...

It's a combination of the least and most reliable parts in MTB all stuck together in a non serviceable unit only directly replaceable with the same.

If your wondering how it rides around a carpark...

The auto shift seems to be great for commuters and shoppers, also love the auto shift to 4th gear when stopped. Remains to be seen how it'll cope on a tech climb.

Nicolai released info on their Saturn 16 with Pinion MGU earlier - intriguing. Not really a looker but if it combines a motor, a gearbox and a Nicolai frame with decent (for me) geometry, then I don't care what it looks like.

want!

"Not really a looker ....." ???

To me that is a fine looking bike. If it wasn't going to cost the thick end of 10 (i'm m aking an educated guess!) then I would consider it for sure

It’s ugly but I trust Nicolai to make a bike that functions well so I’ll take one in plain black please.  Except the price, it’s going to be ‘ow much!!’ isn’t it.

As far as ebikes go, I think that looks pretty cool. As far as pricing goes (suggests €11,000 on facebook) I’ll never be able to buy one! Well, maybe I could afford it, but I just wouldn’t.

The top tube lining up with the seat stays helps it a lot... then you get to the headtube. OTOH the headtube looks a decent length so it might even get off the hook there too. Will gloss over having to re-mortgage the house to get one, otherwise I'd ride it

“Not really a looker …..” ???

To me that is a fine looking bike. If it wasn’t going to cost the thick end of 10 (i’m m aking an educated guess!) then I would consider it for sure

I was anticipating the common opinion on here of Nicolai's looking a bit challenging, nto that I agree. I think it looks fine, as fdar as ebikes go.

Saw that Nicolai in a shop here in Italy the other week. Bugger me it was heavy!

Zero interest in e-MTBs, but fast Pinion motor would be great on a cargo bike like my Bullit.

I used to import Nicolai and have always loved the functional aesthetic but the seat tower on that is really fugly and the head tube isn't much better.