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Thanks for sharing that Orange snippet. £350 for a Tange hardtail with amazing paint and mid range kit? £1,300 for the full blown team replica? Those were the days!!! Makes me feel very nostalgic and I can distinctly remember the joy of scouring printed media in the days before the internet.
I am sure somebody will chime in with a calculation involving inflation shortly, but it does feel like the equivalent today would not be £350 x inflation over time.
For my next one I'm going to get the begging book out for a custom neon pink one 🤣.
It's like they have gotten a little lost since Ashley took over in 2016, Lester and Noble clearly knew their customers and made sure they concentrated on them, loyalty and reputation are the two most important factors for any business which sells something. No offence to Ashley but it seems they have tried to diversify too much and forgotten their core bread and butter customers. I was gutted when they told me I couldn't get my frame painted in the same neon green colour scheme, and also that the decals were not the same either. Small things but finer details make the difference between a sale and a lost sale and or a happy customer who will return. The customer is king, they pay the bills, the wages and keep the lights on so do everything within reason to retain them.
You look after your customers and make sure they get what they want and they will always come back, this will also incrementally increase sales through word of mouth.
Perhaps a back to basics approach, drastically reduce the range, bring back the colour schemes and graphics, get quality control sorted on welds, image is also everything along with reputation, having forums slagging of cracked frames and cosmetically poor welds will do no business any favours.
Up against direct sales, cost of living and huge competitors they need to corner their niche market and concentrate on that alone and they will be ok. I fully agree with the above about the far east models, the pricing on those is far too high and is what pushed me towards Bird bikes hard tail, along with the fact they couldn't be had on the cycle scheme at the time, if they were also handmade frames in the UK however it would have been an easier choice. As a business you need to take a strong look at your competition, and see what they are doing well and cherry pick things and incorporate them into Oranges business model.
Yes your on the money like, DH maybe a frame only option as although a small market the history/prestige means that they would shift a few of them.
The kids bikes market is almost cornered off by Carrerra/specialized/giant etc as they are cheap, ok spec, but most importantly kids grow and only the 1% can afford to be buying £1000 bikes for their kids on an almost yearly basis as they get too big for the bikes.
Social media is another aspect I feel they are seriously lacking on, it's unfortunately mediocre at best. Socials are the best free advertising tool for any business, small investments in time reap huge financial rewards when done correctly. Missing a sitter as they say.
Their key markets are for reliability, simplicity and alternative/niche looks like the frame styles and colour schemes. I feel since they have changed the colours, graphics and iconic 5 swing arm amongst other things they have pushed away returning customers.
Anyone still regularly riding their old Sub 5 or am I the last??
but it does feel like the equivalent today would not be £350 x inflation over time.
and you'd be right, a boggo clockwork retails at £1500
https://www.orangebikes.com/bikes/clockwork-29/2023
Of course its hard to apply general price inflation to specific sectors, especially the bike industry where theres a lot more tech on newer bikes (e.g. forks and disc brakes) which add to the overall price.
Interesting looking at that inflation calculator, but having said that, I applied it to my own experience and was a little surprised.
I bought a 2002 Patriot from sunset, early 2003 at a discount. Paid £1300 for base spec, deore mostly but it had Fox forks which were only just appearing back then, and slowly upgraded it over time.
Inflation calculator takes that to £2260 now. I see sunset are selling last years base spec alpine for 3k, so although it’s more, I was surprised it’s not that much more. Anyhoo, that probably doesn’t add much to the thread but I was expecting quite a lot worse than that.
DaveyBoyWonder
Free MemberNot even sure the range needs to be this big.
TBH when you never know from one year to the next what sort of bike is in and what everyone thinks they need, it's probably pretty easy to get carried away and cover every single niche, for fear of being left behind. E-bikes alone have moved really fast, one minute everyone wants an enduro bike and the next enduro bikes got bigger as if in an attempt to reduce their actual demand, wheel sizes change with the phase of the moon...
But also the range is probably not as many parts as it looks, I'd not be surprised if there's shared triangles or more between mullet and 29er bikes frinstance, the switch and stage 7 look to be at least the same front end. And for Orange, being relatively smallscale and handmade and all UK and inhouse, they won't need to carry a ton of frames in stock in order to cover demand. I don't know if they actually build or paint on demand but it'd be possible at least, maybe some of those options only exist on the website. And that could really leverage the strength of the company vs "order a container of frames and wait 3 months"
OTOH, they have 4 different 29er hardtails. Is the Crush and the Clockwork Evo the same frame with a different fork? Who knows.
But as a punter it's pretty bewildering.
Also, with e-bikes, they use systems from different manufacturers… for many reasons… not least perhaps because some people are dead set for/against each different one. That adds to the number of models, as you can’t just switch motor brands using the same frame. So to sell to both fans/haters of a motor brand, you need a variety of motor suppliers, multiple frames to fit them to, and offer more models than you otherwise would.
Yep, must be a nightmare for companies of that sort of size. I mean, probably a nightmare for smaller ones too but in their case a nightmare you can't really do anything about.
Feeling rather sad about it all, having had two brand new Orange frames in recent years, as of last night both have gone to people on here which is good ( and does demonstrate the appeal to those who 'get' them).
Everyone I've spoke to online and in real life (tm) says the same thing - far, far, far too many bikes.
Agree with most of the above: Bin the DH bike (who, honestly, is buying a DH bike these days other than someone serious about using it for actual, proper racing. And those people, I'm sorry, are not buying an Orange....). Bin the kids bikes. Bin the hybrids and curly bar stuff for now.
Trail bike. 29 inch wheels.
Enduro bike - Mullet/29 options.
Maybe a steel hardtail and an 'aggro' folded alloy hardtail/jib bike.
Two off the shelf colours per frame.
Even for a fan like me, the current range is bonkers.
Thats it. Sod the e-bikes too for a few years, they will never compete and I bet there are minimal people who both a)want a motor and b)would buy an orange anyway.
Shot in the dark but hopefully someone from orange takes a look at the comments and gets some real feedback and insight from past and current customers, reasons why they may/may not be a repeat customer as of present and perhaps one of the reasons for the decline.
If you don't know where your going wrong you can't fix it. 🤷
They may even toy with the idea of updating the website and going completely direct to customer sales, this would allow a slight cut in pricing and help them be more competitive Vs other brands. Especially when budgets are very very tight those who would buy an orange physically can't because of the current financial shit heap this country is in at the minute.
Anyone still regularly riding their old Sub 5 or am I the last??
Regular, maybe not, but the T130 isn’t getting any more miles either. Need to get back off-road properly rather than fairly flat bimbles.
chestrockwell
Maybe I am confusing you? When Orange started they only made the folded aluminium frames. It was an off shoot of an engineering firm where the engineers like riding bikes too so they started making their own.
Nope, not confusing this massive Orange nerd at all. You're welcome to come and have a look at my 1988, 89, or either of my two 1992 Clockwork's if you are ever in the area. The 88 gets extra nerd points for being one of the first 50 ever built (in the Far East 😉 )
If you are interested the link below will give you an idea of the history up to the hand made bikes.
http://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/v/Manufacturer+Archive/Orange+Archive/Orange+Catalogues/
Thats it. Sod the e-bikes too for a few years, they will never compete and I bet there are minimal people who both a)want a motor and b)would buy an orange anyway
with their chunky diwntubes i always thought orange couldve nade an ebike that just looked like a normal oray!
I agree with there being far too many bikes but wonder if, for the hand built stuff at least, they keep some models available simply because they could make a few if requested? The tooling will be done so easy enough to build a few more? Looking at the range, a fair few are getting long in the tooth and have really been replaced already so my musings would make sense to me.
Wonder how many 27.5 bikes they're selling atm too? Could easily drop those but then you are getting rid of the 5 and Alpine so maybe a slimed down model range and a bit of re-naming wouldn't go amiss? If they can get the RX9 gravel bike down to a sensible price (sub 2k) then I'd keep that before the 27.5 bikes. The Crush and the Clockwork are different frames but over the years the Clockwork's travel has crept up meaning it looks similar. Under Steve and Lester they were always good at following trends and getting ahead of the curve. Seems they still try to do that without shedding the chaff.
As for the neon colours, I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, one time when I was up there bothering them for something or other we discussed the neon and it was dropped because it needed a white base coat followed by the neon finish and it was prone to fading. My atomic orange Segment was very close though so they should defo bring that back.
I got a Stage Evo in the sale recently. At the time thought this might happen. Having ridden a lot of bikes I can confirm it rides nicely, surprisingly nicely to be honest. Geometry dialled, suspension well behaved, no creaks or rattles...it's fun too. There's a lot of work gone into the frame. Obviously I will be less pleased if it happens to crack, but happy so far.
I think Orange face an uphill struggle against a perception that carbon and complicated suspension linkages are better, when often that's not true. I've been guilty of this. The website could do with more explanation of why they do things how they do and the benefits. Agree with those saying too many models.
Pricing (of the UK made suspension bikes) has confused me for a while. I understand why it costs more to have stuff manufactured here. But at the same time Orange save on not outsourcing to another company, no shipping costs or import duty, and no local distributor. Simpler R&D, tooling and not having linkages and dozens of bearings should yield a cost saving too. And yet Orange aren't really competitive at full price. Going by my experience they seem perfectly capable of selling direct so that would be one way to make pricing more attractive.
Bikes (like most things) aren't priced on what they cost, they are priced on what they think they'll sell for. If it's true that at one point they sold everything they could make then why would they reduce the price and make less money?
Last time I looked the price of raw aluminium sheets had rocketed and I know the electricity bill at my old job had more than doubled. While there's some value to a lot of the comments on here, there'll be a lot of other issues as to why companies are struggling which isn't about product range and fashionable geometry.
Orange do this
https://www.orangebikes.com/bikes/phase-mx-pro/2023
Which is around the spec, motor and componentry of a fair few others like say Privateer, Whyte etc... but it's £2000-2500 more than their offerings.. But why, what does it give you over theirs... i don't really know. Once you start throwing in reduced bikes from Trek, from Orbea, Specialized, why would you buy an Orange.
Companies like Santa Cruz can limit this by being 'boutique' but Orange seem to have lost that feeling.. They don't feel 'special' do they ? You don't sit there looking and hankering after one.
Trek and Specialized etc are away from the boutique and into the Ford/Toyota of big showroom with lots of shiny things and great backup/spares/presence, so again, Orange are not in that either...
For me, they need an identity or a pricing.... at the moment, they have neither.
Also, with e-bikes, they use systems from different manufacturers… for many reasons… not least perhaps because some people are dead set for/against each different one. That adds to the number of models, as you can’t just switch motor brands using the same frame. So to sell to both fans/haters of a motor brand, you need a variety of motor suppliers, multiple frames to fit them to, and offer more models than you otherwise would.
I'd say screw that if I owned a bike company. Choose one motor brand who I thought was the better one and build the ebike range around them, not go trying to satisfy "fans" of a specific motor brand (jesus, is that where we are now, fans of specific motors on a bike?).
say Privateer, Whyte etc… but it’s £2000-2500 more than their offerings.. But why, what does it give you over theirs… i don’t really know.
Handbuilt frame rather than something developed in the UK but made in some faceless far east factory. As I mentioned in a previous comment, I'd rather go for a UK developed frame/bike vs a UK developed AND built frame/bike if it saved me thousands (not that I'd ever buy a Privateer or Whyte). Thing is, as soon as Orange stop building their full sus frames from folded alloy sheet they lose their identity so I don't think they can.
Companies like Santa Cruz can limit this by being ’boutique’ but Orange seem to have lost that feeling.. They don’t feel ‘special’ do they ? You don’t sit there looking and hankering after one.
Trek and Specialized etc are away from the boutique and into the Ford/Toyota of big showroom with lots of shiny things and great backup/spares/presence, so again, Orange are not in that either…
I think you're right. Whilst I've owned Santa Cruz bikes in the past and have zero intention of owning another (UK riding conditions, multiple pivots/bearings and crap tyre clearance - nah), Orange don't seem to be there anymore as a boutique brand (they were though in the 2000s). They're more a Morgan than an Aston Martin - plugging away at doing things their own way even though people might not get it/appreciate the looks but for those in the know, they're superb things. The difference is, whilst Morgan will never sell a handful of cars, Orange I'm sure could get back to selling a shed full of bikes.
I think in part they need to actually ignore whats going on in the wider biking world and do kind of what I see Cotic doing. Do Cotic make a million full bouncers with suspension travel going up in 10mm increments? Do they bollocks. Do they get sucked into having a trail bike, a down country bike, an up country bike, an alpine bike, an enduro bike, a DH bike, a XC race bike, a bike packing bike etc etc etc. This is all marketing bollocks - nobody needs a 120mm bike, a 130mm bike, a 140mm bike etc - sell a 160/170mm enduro/alpine weapon and a 140mm/150mm trail/all day bike.
This is all marketing bollocks – nobody needs a 120mm bike, a 130mm bike, a 140mm bike etc – sell a 160/170mm enduro/alpine weapon and a 140mm/150mm trail/all day bike.
I thought that when I looked through the hardtail range. A 120 and a 130mm version of the 29" Clockwork and a 130mm and 140mm version of the 27.5" Clockwork. 😳
That 4 sets of forks and 2 sets of wheels/tyres stocked for what is basically one bike. Just build a 130mm 29" Clockwork and have done with it!
They’re more a Morgan than an Aston Martin – plugging away at doing things their own way even though people might not get it/appreciate the looks but for those in the know, they’re superb things. The difference is, whilst Morgan will never sell a handful of cars, Orange I’m sure could get back to selling a shed full of bikes.
Good comment.
I think I remember an interview with the guy who bought them comparing them to a sports car with no driver aids (possibly a Caterham?).
They definitely face the challenge of people thinking they are old-fashioned and ugly - whereas fans know they are brilliant fun, really fast and quite light. The frame weights are comparable with some carbon bikes for sure.
And I think that "old fashioned" perception hides that they are right up there in terms of progressive geometry with their massive long chainstays.
Yeah, they could have a more-focused range and rein the pricing in a bit, but I think Podge's comment about the cost of running the factory is probably relevant. How many smaller bike brands operate their own factory? Must be a "count on one hand" list.
Edit: Actually, does anyone know if the factory was absorbed into Orange as a single company? Or kept separate?
I bet there are minimal people who both a)want a motor and b)would buy an orange anyway
I'd disagree. Oranges are mostly bought by men in their 40s and 50s with lots of disposable income who are listing after their youth. Same with e bikes
How about a show of hands: if Orange closed the factory/stopped UK production, but came up with a clear range of top quality bikes at decent price points (similar to how they were perceived through most of the '90s), then who wouldn't get on board?
I'd be surprised if lots of folk ditch them for a genuine 'made in the UK' badge of honour.
How about a show of hands: if Orange closed the factory/stopped UK production, but came up with a clear range of top quality bikes at decent price points (similar to how they were perceived through most of the ’90s), then who wouldn’t get on board?
I’d be surprised if lots of folk ditch them for a genuine ‘made in the UK’ badge of honour.
I think a problem with that is what I mentioned above - how many far east bike factories are setup to produce frames in the way Orange produce frames? I'd hazard a guess that none are right now which means someone has to absorb initial setup costs etc. Of course Orange could just wang some stickers on a single pivot frame with the same angles as a Five but thats not a "real" Orange. I think they have to keep producing the frames here...
I had a neon green Alpine and wanted it resprayed on a warranty check but they discontinued that colour and neon pink which was my go to alternative.
My Sub 5 was red, a colour that they did not normally use but my LBS leaned heavily on Lester and I got my wish. (Greys and silver were the sanctioned colours, red was for the DH bikes). I believe he threatened to powder coat one red and stick a customised by Orange sticker on it!
I've never had an Orange, lusted badly after a Clockwork in the late 80s/early 90s and an Alpine in the 2010s, but never pulled the trigger. Not sure why. Some friends (north of England) have them and love them, and the place where I see them the most is PdS every summer - you can spot Les Rosbifs a mile off 🙂
The comments about the range getting a bit large and messy does seem accurate. You know when Ramsay goes into a failing restaurant and gets rid of the 20 page menu, replaced with one simple menu? Something like that should be possible.
A quick look at the website, clicked on 'bikes' and was meet with this. Wow, that seems an unfeasibly large range of bikes, to put it mildly.
This whole situation has, ironically, made me quite want one again...
how many far east bike factories are setup to produce frames in the way Orange produce frames?
Why on Earth would they produce frames like that? Which is no doubt a big part of why Orange are in difficulty.
Change is needed from the top down; adapt or disappear.
big scot nails it, with the very analogy I used when talking with a friend the other day.
Why on Earth would they produce frames like that? Which is no doubt a big part of why Orange are in difficulty.
Change is needed from the top down; adapt or disappear.
I suspect that if Orange adapted to "normal" frames, they'd be more likely to disappear.
The frame weights are comparable with some carbon bikes for sure.
Could that be why there have been frame failures? If they were a bit heavier would they be stronger?
They had a spate of frame crackings about 4 years ago.
I bought a used S6 frame which was found to be cracked, and replaced under warranty so I got the version with the revised welding (still a light frame). It lasted me three years and thousands of miles.
I've also had two more full-sus frames which have been fine (touch wood).
I’ve sent a link for this thread to a LinkedIn connection who works at Orange in the hope that some views outside the Orange bubble might be useful.
Why on Earth would they produce frames like that? Which is no doubt a big part of why Orange are in difficulty.
Change is needed from the top down;adaptlose their identity or disappear.
FTFY
I think there's a relevant point being made about bike companies feeling the pressure to have a product in their line-up catering to every emerging niche.
. Wow, that seems an unfeasibly large range of bikes, to put it mildly.
I'm not running a bike making factory but there are 5 hardtails (not including the gravel bikes and flat bar road bike) - Crush, P7, Clockwork, Clockwork Evo and Switch, each has slightly different travel fork from 120mm to 150mm, and different geometry, 3 different wheel size options 27.5, 29er and Mx, and 10 individual models, each with its own spec level...That's 20 different bikes* and 5 frame only options. Does that seem a bit confusing to anybody else?
*Doesn't include size options and wheel size options...I dread to think what the total SKU count is for just hardtail mountain bikes.
It was 2016-18 where they had a real problem with frame failures and from what I understand, by 2020 they were back on top of it. Defo dented their rep though.
I thought that when I looked through the hardtail range. A 120 and a 130mm version of the 29″ Clockwork and a 130mm and 140mm version of the 27.5″ Clockwork.
I agree that there's far too many but the shorter travel Clockwork is the budget option, the 130mm a better quality frame. Different bikes, so maybe need different names? I imagine the 27.5 versions need binning anyway but were probably ordered years back before they fell out of fashion. Post covid Orange had a lead time of up to 12 months on the hard tails from memory?
The 29er Clockwork used to be a 100mm xc bike, but as with others the travel increased as the market for short travel decreased. Problem is, the Crush/P7 maxed out around 140/50mm years back as I imagine longer travel HT's don't sell that well so the whole range has been compressed. I'd imagine they'd drop some if possible but covid ordering has left them with loads of unfashionable options?
True that - the modern Orange identity isn't for most, clearly.
Bikes (like most things) aren’t priced on what they cost, they are priced on what they think they’ll sell for. If it’s true that at one point they sold everything they could make then why would they reduce the price and make less money?
Last time I looked the price of raw aluminium sheets had rocketed and I know the electricity bill at my old job had more than doubled. While there’s some value to a lot of the comments on here, there’ll be a lot of other issues as to why companies are struggling which isn’t about product range and fashionable geometry.
Yeah, you used to very rarely see discounted Orange full suss. It kept the second hand prices high too, which was ace because you could buy a 5, ride it for a couple of years then swap it for a new one for sub 1k.
They also used to be comparable to Santa Cruz and the like. Even when they went carbon, the hand built aspect of the Orange kept them in the same company. These days it seems that most don't take in to account the extra cost of producing them in Halifax compared to the mass produced stuff and grumble that they don't cost the same as a Bird, Canyon or Nuke Proof.
Referring to further up the thread, the original Clockwork was £350 where as the hand built Formula was over £1000 and people were happy to pay. Another example is people going mad about the cost of the new Switch HT, another hand built frame. Same price as the Cotic Solaris, which isn't hand built in the UK. Seems aluminium is viewed as the cheap option, even when it probably costs more to make than a Far East, mass produced carbon frame or a Eastern/Central European factory built steel frame.
My LBS stocked Orange until fairly recently, last time I popped in it was mostly Mondrakers lots of them ebikes, presumably because there's greater demand.
A lot of good comments here, the Morgan cars analogy seems particularly apt. Single pivot aluminium could be a selling point for typical all year British riding, marketing needs to support that message. Made in England is a selling point for me but I'm just patriotic - an energy policy that supports UK based manufacturing and commerce (and cold poor people who can't afford to turn the heating on or use the cooker) should be a priority of the next government.
How can they fix it, price is coming up again and again. As for the range I think there's a place for light full sus short travel xc bikes. Surely all those new gravel riders in the UK are potential XC customers.
They let prices steadily creep up catering to brand loyal existing customers with disposable income and forgetting about the next generation of yet to be brand loyal customers who are priced out of their bikes. No idea how big their export market was, I'd imagine not that big. Make bikes that are desirable and affordable to younger riders or be a niche Morgan like company but with a shrinking market
A lot of good comments here, the Morgan cars analogy seems particularly apt. Single pivot aluminium could be a selling point for typical all year British riding, marketing needs to support that message. Made in England is a selling point for me but I’m just patriotic
Sounds a lot like an aluminium Starling
forgetting about the next generation of yet to be brand loyal customers who are priced out of their bikes
Maybe this as well. As far as I'm aware there are none of these riders who produce "sik edits" type things on YouTube etc on Oranges - the last I saw of that type was when Joe Barnes etc rode for them and there was lots of rut slapping fun on Fives/Alpines. Maybe there needs to be more of that kind of thing to help promote the brand again - riders doing what could be perceived as "cool" stuff, hell, maybe moreso than the racing element? Promotion of the brand via racing seems minimal given how little coverage racing gets at any level/discipline - so Orange sponsor (or did) a factory enduro team. The actual brand coverage that provides the brand must be pretty minimal - even as a spectator you see a rider go past on a bike and then a few seconds later, someone else on another bike... that kind of thing isn't going to want to make me buy that brand.
I'm getting into this now. Orange - call me if you need a hand 😀 Simplify the range, settle on 1 type of ebike motor, quit the racing stuff completely, sack off all the kids bikes, find a handful of decent riders who produce some good riding videos and sponsor them instead and gain exposure via steep tech/off-piste/50to01 type videos...
Surely all those new gravel riders in the UK are potential XC customers.
That's a leap!
As for the RX9, did anyone buy one who wasn't already an Orange owner/fanboi? They don't offer anything not available elsewhere (cheaper) and have nothing in common with what most people would recognise as the Orange brand.
*Doesn’t include size options and wheel size options…I dread to think what the total SKU count is for just hardtail mountain bikes.
I think there’s a relevant point being made about bike companies feeling the pressure to have a product in their line-up catering to every emerging niche.
Yep, it's a vast and confusing range that requires huge amounts of stock to service it all and yet the one niche they're missing is gravel bikes!
OK, there's one, the X9. But even that sort of seems to be aimed at the Orange fanboy MTBer who would naturally look to the same manufacturer for a gravel bike.
Canyon have half a dozen Grizl models, all at substantially lower prices and better spec than the one offering from Orange.
Edit: cross posted with @scotroutes who makes basically the same point.
So... the wisdom of the forum is... fewer models but more models... focus on ebikes, but don't offer so much choice of ebikes... look more modern, but bring back old colours and graphics... try and match the prices and marketing spend of the USA brands who are also struggling right now despite far cheaper Chinese manufacturing... less customisation and options like the big box UK seller, who had to bring in the administrators before them.
So… the wisdom of the forum is…
Yes, exactly!
Man, we should all get together and start our own bike company.
Looks like a reverse mullet to me.
Good job, that should keep everyone happy!
As for the RX9, did anyone buy one who wasn’t already an Orange owner/fanboi? They don’t offer anything not available elsewhere (cheaper) and have nothing in common with what most people would recognise as the Orange brand.
The RX9 might have become that as the last few versions look pretty dull and went insanely expensive (£2.2k for Apex, really?) to the point where even a fan like me couldn't justify one but actually they were way ahead of the curve originally, just as they were with other trends. Who else was offering a gravel bike in 2014 (and every year since)? Remember the film of the original RX9 being chucked about?
Who else was offering a gravel bike in 2014
Off the top of my head,
Surly.
Genesis.
Kona.
Van Nicholas.
Santa Cruz
Ibis.
So… the wisdom of the forum is…
That none of us has the first clue about how to run a bike company, let alone keep it going for 35 years?
Who else was offering a gravel bike in 2014
My Specialized Crux (admittedly originally marketed as a CX) is from 2014. But it's basically a gravel bike.
That none of us has the first clue about how to run a bike company, let alone keep it going for 35 years?
No but there's some good nuggets of info and a few ideas in the previous 5 pages.
Off the top of my head,
Yep, all in early before GB's blew up and everyone joined in. The point being they have been able to see which way the wind was blowing in the past, rather than jumping on an established band wagon to cash in, as was suggested.
So… the wisdom of the forum is… fewer models but more models… focus on ebikes, but don’t offer so much choice of ebikes… look more modern, but bring back old colours and graphics… try and match the prices and marketing spend of the USA brands who are also struggling right now despite far cheaper Chinese manufacturing… less customisation and options like the big box UK seller, who had to bring in the administrators before them.
Don't think I said any of that 😀
Who else was offering a gravel bike in 2014
The RX9 was marketed as a cross bike that could do more, like plenty of other cross bikes around at the time at lower prices. (The Cannondale CAADX was similarly marketed, for example.)
https://archive.orangebikes.co.uk/bike/2014/rx9/
WHY THE RX9?
The RX9 is the CX we've always wanted to build. Sure footed and fast. If you want ride options this bike will deliver the goods.
Man, we should all get together and start our own bike company.
Yeah, like that thing when a bunch of people on the internet get together and run a non-league football club? Always ends well...
Personally I wish Orange well and hope, for the sake of the people who work there in particular, that they find a way of continuing to trade without anyone being shafted in the process. That said, I've never really been drawn to them as a brand, to me they always felt a bit like one of those heritage British car brands - Lotus maybe - that you either feel is cool or not based more on their history than the current range.
I don't doubt that the current bikes are good - most modern mountain bikes tend to be - but it feels like you'd really have to want an Orange because you've historically bought into the brand. I guess they'll have their own research and stats on their customer base and I may be - probably am - wide of the mark, but that's how it feels to me. I don't know if that's a flaw with how their marketing and whether Brexit, Covid etc has royally screwed things up for them or if it's a balance of stuff, but if people aren't attracted to the brand in the first place, then the breadth or otherwise of the range isn't really the issue. But who knows.
Also, judging from the gangs of elderly e-mtbers round here - Peak District - a fair few heritage customers are maybe looking at e-bikes rather than high-end conventional mountain bikes, which can't really help.
Whyte had a range of what would be be called gravel bikes now in 2012 https://road.cc/content/review/60408-whyte-kings-cross
People were using CX bikes as winter hacks, commuters, forestry road bashers for a long time, the market caught up and started designing bikes to suit.
Whyte had a range of what would be be called gravel bikes now in 2012
Yeah, but other than Whyte, Specialized, Surly, Genesis, Kona, Van Nicholas, Santa Cruz and Ibis, who else was way ahead of the curve by offering a gravel bike in 2014?
FWIW I bought my Kona Sutra in 2007.
Fair enough, everyone was making gravel type bikes in 2014 and in no way did Orange get in early on a market that was about to explode.
That none of us has the first clue about how to run a bike company,
I'm inclined to agree, but i’m going to ... disagree…
It’s just a business. Lots of people run businesses.
I suspect many people on here have daydreamed about running a small bike company… but those daydreams have evaporated the moment they made it onto a spreadsheet. The numbers just don’t add up.
Add up salaries, and workshop rental, and admin, and etc. and you’re quickly looking at running costs well over £200k.
Making a couple of hundred quid profit per frame and we’d have to sell 1000 frames per year (Good luck with that – it’s a very crowded market).
It seems very likely that we will see other uk bike companies running into the buffers before too long. My internal spreadsheet says that the companies which survive will be the ones run as a side-hustle.
(where the person who owns/runs the company isn’t taking a full salary, but an amount based on an honest pro-rata value of the actual amount of time it takes to run the business)
Well none of us can solve Orange's woes without actually knowing why they were in the red for so long, anyway.
I'm a bit of a Whyte fan tbh but I'm going to chuck out that Whyte are a good example of a mid sized player in the UK market:
UK focused design, well priced, sensible spec, forward looking, widely available through lbs and online, 'likeable' brand but not trying too hard to be aspiration
I get the impression that Orange have been eaten from all angles. Not as boutique as SC, not as hi tech as spesh, too expensive V Whyte. Plus their core users have aged out.
Whyte are also a great example of changing your identity to make your brand far more palatable. Fair assumption that they sold many more T130s than PRST-1s
So… the wisdom of the forum is… fewer models but more models… focus on ebikes, but don’t offer so much choice of ebikes… look more modern, but bring back old colours and graphics… try and match the prices and marketing spend of the USA brands who are also struggling right now despite far cheaper Chinese manufacturing… less customisation and options like thebig box UK seller, who had to bring in the administrators before them.
that is the beauty of decision by committee!
Canyon have half a dozen Grizl models, all at substantially lower prices and better spec than the one offering from Orange.
I’m not particularly picking on this one quote. But it’s an example of something I’m seeing in this thread and the who next thread. A dealer network isn’t something that most consumers on this forum value.
Not as boutique as SC
Santa Cruz aren't in any way other than their marketed image boutique. They're mass produced in the Far East by a huge conglomerate.
A dealer network isn’t something that most consumers on this forum value.
It is and it isn't.
I think the days of walking into a bike shop and being able to get (eg) a new BB are long gone. There are hundreds of BB variants now so the chances of the shop having the exact parts are slim to none and shops can't afford to be stocking everything because they have neither the space nor the cash.
It's even the same with a basic consumable like brake pads.
I really value my LBS, they're brilliant mechanics and I take most of my bikes to them for even fairly basic stuff now because they have all the tools, space and resources to do a good job. They can even service almost everything on my Canyon and I know that if I need a specific part, it's one email or web order (and about 2 days) away so I don't really *need* a dealer network.
And even if Canyon had a dealer network, the same principle applies - it's unlikely that a bricks and mortar shop could hold in stock every version of every specific part or bearing from every Canyon model.
And that definitely applies to Orange who seem (to me and several other people on this thread) to have an excess of models and options and that requires a similar excess of parts, spares and accessories.
we should all get together and start our own bike company.
I think the name Sick! might be available.
Yeah, but other than Whyte, Specialized, Surly, Genesis, Kona, Van Nicholas, Santa Cruz and Ibis, who else was way ahead of the curve by offering a gravel bike in 2014?
Kinesis had the Tripster in 2012, I've still got the one that @somafunk convinced me to buy with that tripster thread of theirs.
OK, but other than Whyte, Specialized, Surly, Genesis, Kona, Van Nicholas, Santa Cruz, Ibis and Kinesis, who else was way ahead of the curve by offering a gravel bike in 2014?
Edit: and Marin
Doesn't really surprise me, you hardly ever see folk riding an Orange where once they were commonplace. They've not really innovated and are expensive compared to the opposition. A real shame but I hope they can be saved.
There has been a lot of comparison between Orange and Canyon. I like the “new bike day” feeling when very occasionally I get a new bike. Last year I was lucky enough to get a new full suspension bike, my first one since 2010. I travelled 80 miles each way to the shop, where I had had excellent service with (very) knowledgeable staff. The shop are Orange stockists, however I came out with another brand, because I preferred it. Equally I could have bought the Orange but didn’t. Price wasn’t the only factor, it was more about the bike feeling!
With my road bike, I also valued service and travelled a long way to find a suitable shop. A friend bought a Canyon, same group set, similar price, however he subsequently changed cassette, chain and mech to get his preferred ratios. In addition while the wheels were great quality they weren’t the ideal section for UK roads, so again we’re changed. The Canyon ended up being considerably more expensive than my equivalent shop bought bike, where they could advice on what works for the individual. Unfortunately because society wants Canyon more than a proper bike shop service, this service is dwindling.
I have aP7 from 2017 ish, and it is great, I always wanted to pair it with a five or stage, but unfortunately that doesn’t look likely now.
I hope the staff are looked after.
Username doesn’t entirely check out
, who else was way ahead of the curve by offering a gravel bike in 2014?
Edit: and Marin
There was another Yorkshire based company offering a do-it-all road/cross/gravel bike back then (and now), and they had until recently, possibly a more mental line-up... until administration and a buy-out last year. You know who it is, everyone loves them!
OK, but other than Whyte, Specialized, Surly, Genesis, Kona, Van Nicholas, Santa Cruz, Ibis and Kinesis, who else was way ahead of the curve by offering a gravel bike in 2014?
Edit: and Marin
Even Pinnacle had a gravel bike in 2014.
Talking of the wide range of bikes - looking back at my copy of the 2000 price list, we had a choice of-
Hardtails: Gringo (starting at £499.95 for rigid), P7 steel, EvO2, EvO2 limited ed, P7 pro, E4 pro, E4 XTR'a (£2099.95)
Dirt/jump hardtails: AirO (£889.95), Msisle, Msisle Pro (£1449.95)
Full sus: Patriot (£1399.95), Sub 5, MrXC, Sub5 pro, MrXC pro, Patriot Pro, MrO pro (£1999.95), Sub 5 Xtr'a, MrXC Xtr'a
Long travel special editions: Patriot LT, Patriot Millenium, MrO DH (£3499.95)
point being they had 7 different hardtails in various configs and 4 full sus bikes, so perhaps the slightly confusing lineup has been a thing in their DNA for a while. Prices really jumped from 2000 to 2001, the Sub 5 pro went from £1599 to £2100, not sure if that was down to parts rises or capitalising on the popularity of the bikes
my mrXC xtra (the first mrXC, and I think the first front-triangle-with-a-swingarm bike they ever sold) was £2799 from memory, in 1999, which was in line with other top-end bikes at the time (everything seemed to max out around £3k). Its still going strong as a kiddy carrier(!) Thats about £5200 today, which wouldn't get you an equivilent model any more (the XT based 5 evo is about a grand more).
I wonder if the "million models" thing is based on how they make them - they can probably pop out a batch of 3 or 4 frames at the same rate as a batch of 50 - so why not something to everyone if they're built to order? The stage evo alone has 28 colour/size options, so there's no way they're keeping that lot in stock. It might even be that some parts (ie front triangle) are shared across multiple bikes and only things like the shock mounting on the rear swingarm changes
Even Pinnacle had a gravel bike in 2014.
Yeah, but the designer was a man of rare genius
I suspect many people on here have daydreamed about running a small bike company…
All I need to do is start with a large bike company!