You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
We've just had word from Orange Bikes, they're set to continue. When the application for administration was made, an application was also placed for P ...
By stwhannah
Get the full story here:
https://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/orange-bikes-announces-a-new-dawn/
That's great news.
All the best to them and more power to their elbows 😊
Orange not squashed.
❤️
This is great news.
Good to hear they are out of the woods. Some very careful wording going on there - were the two companies not already owned my Ash anyway?
Also
This strategic decision ensures a promising future for British bike manufacturing in West Yorkshire for at least another 35 years.
Suddenly they’re the most secure company in the world.
Brilliant news, my dream of owning a full sus Orange hasn’t been juiced!
👏 thats the news we wanted 😀
Some very careful wording going on there – were the two companies not already owned my Ash anyway?
The more cynical might theorise that the manufacturing company was saddled with all the debt, declared bankrupt and then sold to Orange for pennies.
Im happy to see Orange continue but some one has lost out big time to allow this to happen.
This is good news, but I don't think they are out of the woods yet.
Hopefully this is a wake-up call to the business to look at the product range and the value proposition they offer to customers.
The creditors list will be interesting to see. They were millions in debt with a huge pile of stock they couldn’t sell. Indeed, there will be many losing out.
Good news.
Slightly pessimistic about the background figures and who has lost out.
Orange not squashed
Not folded either.
🍊 Awesome news! 🍊
Good news for the Halifax manufacturing but as alluded too above, some creditors will be spitting feathers about this I imagine and getting pennies in the £. This could be the demise of them, but that’s less of a story. <br /><br />I thought Ashley had sold it recently, but can’t be certain.
Glad to hear they’ve come to some sort of way forward. The business obviously needs streamlining, maybe being under one roof under new management and a realistic look at their range and perhaps price will make them viable. Idk. I am not an insolvency expert but I’m glad they’re, for the moment at least, still afloat.
Really so happy to hear a positive future out of uncertainty for an iconic British MTB company, good on them!! And delighted that it's not another doom and gloom story for the bike industry.
Great news!
The futures bright, the futures orange
The futures bright, the futures orange
If the newco have any right to use the name… that’s up to the big Orange
Wishing Orange all the best. Worth remembering they’re not some faceless corporation importing from Taiwan - this is people in Yorkshire making a top-end product from the ground up. The industry needs them.
Really glad to hear about this - I hope they can make it work!
Ah brilliant!
Great guys who loved their product.
Great news but I doubt the streamlining will bring their pricing down as their running costs decrease so will still be premium or maybe overpriced imho.
Great news.
Wonder if I can sneak a new Five into the garage without Mrs J noticing 🤔
Sounds well dodgy, some people will have lost a lot of money, possibly jobs, and someone has benefited from poor business decision making, or used a legal process to benefit at the expense of others
And then they blatantly almost tried to spin it as good PR , mind boggles
I wouldn’t touch orange at all after stuff like this
Says they will continue under the ownership of Ash ball, didn’t he take ownership in 2015?
I think if the Stanton saga taught us anything it's that these 'fresh start with the same faces' solutions can have unintended consequences.
Let's see how things pan out but I'd be surprised if it's as simple as writing off the debt and starting again like nothing happened.
I think if the Stanton saga taught us anything it’s that these ‘fresh start with the same faces’ solutions can have unintended consequences.
Which aspect of it Bruce.
Fwiw I wasn't buying an orange before and won't be now either, but it really leaves a sour taste so to speak.
I had a segment, it was good. When I packed it up to sell it was cracked. They stood by the warranty and sorted it quickly
So a great bike, but I wouldn't buy a second hand one. And at full price I would have a long pause before buying one
@funkydunc I’m not sure your analysis makes sense. No one has benefitted inappropriately. The point is there would have been no ability to pay the monies owed to suppliers when they went into admin (I assume) so the restructuring wasn’t the trigger. It’s clearly difficult for suppliers with a significant exposure, but why would allowing the trade, assets and know get wasted be a better scenario?
Or do you just think the managers of Orange should be punished in some way?
Which aspect of it Bruce.
Well, if you go by the UK press (including STW) then Stanton administrators decided to not to complete an order of about 800 frames. A mystery party then bought, painted and stickered those frames and sold them to 1bike4life. Thanks to a timing and Brexit issue the Stanton brand name was 'available' in Europe. Hence there is now an evil copycat running around selling a stolen Stanton brand.
If you read the German press then it gets a bit more interesting. Apparently 1bike4life and Stanton were having their frames produced in the same factory. 1bike4life was worried that such a large financial hit could lead to stability issues for the factory's finances so stepped in to buy the frames and create the Stanton Europe brand since, even according to Dan Stanton, the Stanton brand was dead and buried so who cares if someone 'steals' it.
The problem was that Stanton was able to rise like a phoenix having written off it's main debt and with it's frames owned by Dave Loughran and sold to Dan as and when needed.
I'm not sure exactly how accurate all the above is. Like I said, that's just what I've been able to piece together and the sources have obviously been biased and only interested in telling one side of the story. But going into administration always leaves someone in the lurch and those people will do what they have to so their businesses can survive.
Obviously this exact situation isn't going to repeat itself but someone has been left in the lurch by this and having a new Orange able to rise like a phoenix like nothing has happened is possibly going to cause issues, we just don't know what.
No one has benefitted inappropriately<br /><br />
I guess we don’t have the full facts, but administration is a legal formal process and only happens when businesses are no longer financially viable and in debt.
Looks to me that someone has saddled one company with debt, put it in to administration at which point it’s been sold to the other company for 1p or something. Company owner walks away happy but creditors and staff get shafted
Morally not a great way to operate in my mind
The accountant has earned their fee with this one. Both companies in administration but the one with most assets and the greatest stability gets bought out by the other.
Great news for those who managed to keep their jobs but someone somewhere is going to be taking a big financial hit.
even according to Dan Stanton, the Stanton brand was dead and buried so who cares if someone ‘steals’ it.
That's one way of putting it.
Another would be to say he never said that at any point.
Another would be to say he never said that at any point.
Listen to the last STW podcast with Dan.
He said the only people interested in buying the brand were oligarchs who had no interest in bikes and were just looking for a UK based business to buy in order to have a way into the UK market.
If that had happened the Stanton we know would have been dead, even if some BSOs were still being produced to make the tax return look legit.
Without Dave Loughran stepping in to buy the remaining stock that was the only future Stanton had.
He said the only people interested in buying the brand were oligarchs who had no interest in bikes and were just looking for a UK based business to buy in order to have a way into the UK market.
Okay, but how did you get from there to
even according to Dan Stanton, the Stanton brand was dead and buried so who cares if someone ‘steals’ it.
With leaping skills like that have you ever considered the Olympics?
And you've already been more than schooled about IP theft still being theft regardless of if a company is trading. I have no idea why you're so keen to defend a robbing scumbag.
And you’ve already been more than schooled about IP theft still being theft regardless of if a company is trading. I have no idea why you’re so keen to defend a robbing scumbag.
Not sure why you're getting so angry about this.
If you read what I wrote, I'm not defending anyone. I'm pointing out some important facts that STW decided to omit in the original story, ie, that Stanton and 1bike4life shared a factory which puts a very different spin on things (assuming that's the case, still not had that confirmed by anyone who wasn't German).
Stanton going into administration threatened the future of both the factory and 1bike4life. If they hadn't done what they did both could have ended up with a bunch of people on the dole but I guess because they are German and Taiwanese they don't matter?
No one could have guessed Dan and Dave would have pulled the switcheroo they did. And Stanton emerging much the same as it was before had unintended consequences.
But yeah, call people who are also just trying to survive in this industry scumbags if you must. They aren't British so they don't really count as real people, do they?
More and more of this going on right now - If there is money owed and its 'written off' then somebody is out of pocket, be it the bank or a supplier it knocks on somewhere, somehow.
A local shop did the same, called administrators, some stock returned to suppliers, fixtures and fittings sold at discount to owners wife and shop re-launched under the guise of 'refurbishment' a month later with a range of different bike brands - hundreds of thousands of pounds owed to various suppliers, HMRC etc etc - poof! all gone.
Interesting lately a small UK frame builders company went into liquidation - debts appearing to be owed being a bounceback loan with nothing repaid and another company in the directors name that they now trade under, bye bye £50k debt - but who picks this up, the tax payer?
If there is something that needs fixing about how LTD companies are able to operate its the ability to seemingly be able to absolve themselves of debt, be a little creative with things and declare a 'new dawn' with what appears to be almost zero downsides.
It didn't happen but there was talk that when the Bicycle academy went under that it could take with it Ceeway. If that had happened then the UK would have lost not only the single largest (basically the only) custome frame building supplier but also possibly the only website that somehow predates the internet.
There's more often than not a whole cascade of issues that people seem fairly easy to overlook.
This gives a little more context than other articles I’ve seen.
https://bikebiz.com/new-owner-for-orange-bikes/
Without Dave Loughran stepping in to buy the remaining stock that was the only future Stanton had.
The irony here being that this was probably funded by the Planet X MBO ... in turn presumably funded by the £6.3M loan from Santander ( https://bikebiz.com/planet-xs-1-8-million-list-of-creditors-shown-in-companies-house-update/). ... which in turn is probably what pushed Planet X into administration and was presumably defaulted.
Im glad to see them back in business but as many have pointed out there does seem to be a legal sleight of hand around ownership of which bit meaning someone else is picking up the losses from the taxpayerr, to banks suppliers etc.
I’m pointing out some important facts that STW decided to omit in the original story, ie, that Stanton and 1bike4life shared a factory which puts a very different spin on things (assuming that’s the case, still not had that confirmed by anyone who wasn’t German).
I’m not going to claim that I know what happened at Stanton. But this isn’t a great argument is it. Single track didn’t mention a fact. Although it might not be a fact. So that might be a his reason they didn’t mention it.
Back to Orange
I have at times got really cross about the whole liquidation thing as a scam. A friend sold a successful company to fund his retirement. It then went bust in about 3 years. I spoke to an employee who thought it was deliberate. Suddenly all the directors were driving round in range rovers and spending lots of money on perks, all charged back to the business. Nothing like that happened before the sale. Fun and games until they wind up and the debts are cancelled.
But from what I see the Orange brand didn’t set out to loose money and benefit from cancelling the debt. Things went wrong and a best way forward has been found. It’s terrible for the people who loose out. But ceasing to trade would damage more people not less
Stanton, via STW, gave us part of the story with the intention of creating a pile on for both 1bike4life and bike24. And it worked, briefly (those Stantons are now back on bike24). If you go hunting through the German bike press you get another side of the story that isn't quite as clear cut as the version we got here.
Personally, I like to get the whole story before drawing conclusions, even if that involves seeing what the foreigners are saying.
You don't and you get abusive if anyone questions the 'official' version from the good honest British sources.
I'm not sure anyone stole anything, my understanding is at the time no one owned the European and international rights to the name / brand / IP of Stanton.
Someone saw an opportunity to own a bankrupt brand and ran with it. It just so happens that at the same time someone else was also picking through the bones of the bankrupt company and resurrected it.
I had to look at the Ceeway website based on the comment above, and it's fantastic 😀
https://www.ceeway.com/index.htm
Someone saw an opportunity to own a bankrupt brand and ran with it.
Fair enough. But 1bike4life then passed off the Taiwanese frames they bought, with the fake "Stanton" labeling they applied, to Bike24 as being made in the UK by Dan (see pic). I suspect we haven't had any update since last summer because its with the lawyers and I doubt Dan has the funds to pursue in the same way Specialized do.
However the passing off is clear evidence to me that it was just a cynical attempt by 1bike4life to raid the history of Stanton for some cash, and when they got caught doubled down. Or you can believe, like BruceWee does, that they were heroically trying to save jobs in the Taiwanese factory.
"The Bikes are made in their own factory in Derbyshire" No they are not. They are made in Taiwan. Thats dishonest passing off. If they are lying about that. What else are they lying about?
<br />
But this thread is about Orange. Brilliant news they live on. I bought one of the first P7s in 1991. Loved that bike!
Ok, My prev post was backed up by clear evidence... but if you must...
But then Dan wasn’t 100% honest when he said a mysterious 3rd party bought the frames and then sold them to 1bike4life. Maybe it happened like that, but it’s the biggest coincidence I’ve ever seen that the 3rd party just happened to sell the frames to a company that used the same factory as Stanton (again, no one who isn’t German has confirmed that they did in fact use the same factory and I’m quite happy to be corrected if this isn’t the case).
Evidence please? And not some vague reference or flowery whimsy. Thanks
On the one hand we have a plucky British brand which has had its IP stolen by a greedy mustache twirling German villain so he could buy a new superyacht.
On the other we have a German hero who stole a dead brand from an oligarch in order to feed his starving frame builders.
Again evidence please, or thats just utterly irrelevant and you are breaking rule 1 (I really dont care if the people are German, UK or Taiwan - it makes no difference)?
Because at the moment it looks like Stanton’s administrators stiffed the factory for 800 frames plus tooling (which I’m guessing is quite a lot of money)
Dan has been really clear that he intended to make sure everything with suppliers is square. Again please provide evidence to the contrary?
But yeah, back to my original point, these phoenix deals are always going to make things messy for someone, no matter how simple and clean it seems to be for the ‘new’ owners.
Agreed. Which is why I haven't commented on whats going on with Orange because i have no evidence. But with Stanton its well documented. Unless you can provide evidence, which I dont think you can? Maybe let it go?
Bloody hell you lot are tiresome, just go back to one of the Stanton discussions to discuss Stanton
Yes. Fair point. Sorry! I just think comments about Stanton are unfair. Wont post again
EDIT Sorry - they are still trolling so I will...
Evidence?
Well, there are 800 frames floating around. As far as evidence goes that's about it.
Oh, and your evidence is the screenshot, I guess? I'm not sure when it was taken but it's not what I'm seeing on that page:
https://www.bike24.com/brands/stanton-bikes
Stanton Bikes - Classic and Traditional Steel Mountain Bike Frames
Stanton mountain bikes come from the same bike manufacture as Rennstahl, Falkenjagd and Parapera and cultivate traditional frame materials such as steel and titanium. They stand for purist and classic frame geometries, timeless design and minimalist construction - for example, the frames come with external cable stops, making maintenance and component upgrades a breeze.
Apart from that it's he said, she said. Dan is saying one thing. The Germans are saying another. I have no evidence to prove that what the Germans are saying is true anymore than you have any evidence that what Dan is saying is true. That's why I'm saying it would be nice if a magazine with contacts in the industry could clear up what we are hearing from both sides.
All I know for sure is no factory is going to want to get a reputation for selling the IP of one customer to another which is what this factory seems to be doing. Something is not quite right with anyone's story.
I know everyone feels like Dan is their special mate and his story shouldn't be questioned but if you take a step back and look at it objectively it doesn't quite add up.
OK, I'm sure the Orange resurrection will go swimmingly and no one who ends up out of pocket will directly or indirectly cause any issues for the 'new' Orange.
Oooh it appears the mods have retrospectively deleted my comments discussing the issues of bankruptcy, media corruption and IP lies.
all pretty relevant to the conversation….
sorry but you can’t believe anything written on this website now.
Neil SuperstarComponents
[MOD] That you posted AFTER we asked that the thread stay on topic, which is Orange, not Stanton.
I thought this was going to happen, then that thing about seeking to sell the business came out from the administrators and it seemed like it wasn't the case,.. but actually it is. Oh the drama. Publishing that the business is seeking a buyer is part of this sort of scheme?
I guess they actually wanted to keep this under wraps until it was done but forbes went and published the article and now you have multiple articles on pinkbike with the same highly original comments as usual.
I hope that the debtors list is mostly the big distributors so the effect on smaller suppliers is less but I have a feeling a bunch of people won't be too chuffed with this. But I guess they probably weren't going to get paid either way but it's still got to sting and there will be bad blood.
Might be an idea to wait for some actual facts before accusing Orange of ripping people off yeah?
If the guess work does prove to be correct it's certainly not cool that innocent companies lose out but on the other hand it's preferable to all the Orange staff being made redundant and the innocent companies still not getting anything. Who knows, they might get some sort of payment anyway?
I assume non of us have been buying anything from CRC/Wiggle at stupidly low prices recently? Can't imagine the people who manufactured and supplied the below cost items getting their money back?
I assume non of us have been buying anything from CRC/Wiggle at stupidly low prices recently? Can’t imagine the people who manufactured and supplied the below cost items getting their money back?
In the net!
Anyway, businesses going into administration and restructuring happens all the time. In many cases it’s the lesser of two evils and for lots of suppliers it’s better to write-off some/all of the debt and still have a customer to trade with going forward, than to write off some/all of the debt and have no customer to trade with.
The harsh reality is that if any other business is so exposed to one customer that that customer defaulting puts them out of business, they need to have a a good, hard look at their business practices and how they manage risk. Certainly if you’re that exposed to one customer you’d want to think very carefully about extending them credit, and if you do you’d be well advised to have water tight trade credit insurance to protect you if they default. If you haven’t, and they do, then quite frankly it’s on you
Might be an idea to wait for some actual facts before accusing Orange of ripping people off yeah?
Quite. And none of my business anyway. But I’d still be interested to know, I could well sympathise with the situation. As a small business owner who has seen the way a deal can become very skewed in the favour of one party or another when very unexpected situations arise I could well sympathise. Inflation, energy, trade, etc has all been very unpredictable in the past few years.
Make them reliable, people don't buy an orange for lightweight, they buy them partly for the simple design and ease of maintenance, all that is lost if the frame cracks, as has happened to many of my local riding pals multiple times. A new frame or a new swingarm with a respray is no good.
Back this up with a better warranty that gives peace of mind to the original owner.
I'm local (but my nose is normal) and would love to own an orange but until the above issues are fixed there's no reason to buy one.
The "actual facts" are that it's just business, innit?
Having been at a fair few companies that have gone into administration—hang on, am I the common factor?—there are winners and losers each time but there's always the same 'X is ripping off Y' or 'Z is just saving his own ass' arguments made. There are more losers than winners fo' sure, but that's just the way doing things properly by calling in the administrators works. At face value it all stinks, but that's capitalism for you.
Good luck for the future guys and here's to a great 2024 hopefully.
Unless Ashley Ball is willing to admit that he is the reason the business went into administration and learn from his mistakes then the metaphorical can has just been kicked down the road.
Yes the cycle trade is having a hard time, other business's are managing to keep there head above water though. In 2015 when Ball purchased Orange the bikes were getting good reviews in the media, they were sponsoring WC Dh'ers and most importantly had a huge dealership network in the UK. The business has been on a steady decline since then.
I believe Ball purchased Orange because it was an opportunity for him to take control of his biggest customer and therefore secure business for Bairstows. Without Wade & Noble at the helm though the brand seemed to stop developing/evolving. I might be wrong but I believe Bairstows/Ashley Ball had no experience in bike frame manufacturing until Steve Wade approached them with plans for a swing-arm made out of sheet aluminium. It seems to me that Orange became so committed to folded aluminium sheet construction not necessarily because it was the best thing for Orange but because it was the best thing for Bairstows.
You only need to look at the materials and manufacturing techniques Orange had used before Ball bought Orange to see that the brand was not tied to any particular material/technique. I'm pretty sure that just before Orange was sold to Ball either Wade or Noble said that Orange were about 2 years away from being to manufacture out of carbon in the UK.
Not sure I agree with that - The folded sheet construction is Orange's USP - before they sold it was their USP too - the rumours of carbon frames seemed to be nothing but rumours.
Recently they have added the linkage frames which seemed to go down quite well, they certainly reviewed well, so 'innovation' isn't entirely non existent and their geometry is spot on.
Personally I think price is the absolute barrier here, not the design which personally I am a fan off (other than the ugly hanging 'gut' one one of the new models)
Refine choice, drop the price and I believe they will sell.
HIP HIP HOORAY!
Here's to hopefully using round tube shapes
Without Wade & Noble at the helm though the brand seemed to stop developing/evolving.
Having owned plenty, that's simply not true.
As for a carbon bike, they did do a prototype but that was waaaaay back. Guess going down the Hope route might not be a bad idea though? Be interesting to see what they come up with.
Without Wade & Noble at the helm though the brand seemed to stop developing/evolving.
As above, I really don't recognise this in reality. I'd say they've possibly been too innovative in recent years.
They now have various different frame designs (single pivot, linkage SP, the one with the storage box), they have some of the longest chainstays in the galaxy and their lightweight eeb looked like it could be the best on the market.
Like we said on a previous thread, they've possibly become a bit too niche, fallen off people's radars and their previous customers are on eebs - but I feel like rider tastes are coming back to simplicity and there's potential for Orange to regain ground if they can make the pricing a bit more palatable.
As above, I really don’t recognise this in reality. I’d say they’ve possibly been too innovative in recent years.
I'd say that in recent years Orange have been ahead, not behind, the curve in many areas... not least when it comes to their range of ebikes. Perhaps they've been doing too much at once... rather than too little. But they haven't been standing still. Not moving to carbon moulding in China can been seen by many as "standing still"... but personally I find that kind of development boring and glad they haven't gone down that route and have been pressing forward in their own way. Crossing all my fingers for them for the future.
To get the discussion back on track - After the announcement of the news and the flooding of the used marketplace with overpriced Orange bikes with people hoping to prey on the nostalgia "always wanted an Orange now I worry I won't ever be able to own one" market, hopefully we see the used prices drop on S/H Orange offerings.<br /><br />I'm quite fancying a hardtail for days I just want to get the miles in, they call that XC now don't they? And seen a lovely clockwork outside of my local in summer last year, been fancying one since.