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Hmm, looks like a Kingdom hate-****ed a mobility scooter and this is the result of that insidious carnal union.
Shame that they couldn't design it so the battery fits at the bottom of the triangle like where the bag is in this pic. I'm sure if you could custom build a battery you could get one to fit, even around the motor. Would look loads better IMO.
I think a bigger issue is why a frame and motor should cost £6.5k. This isn't having a dig at Cotic I'm sure they aren't running on massive profit margins and rolling around in Bentley's but rather that it represents the true cost of small scale manufacturing in the UK and how massively uncompetitive it is.
I always use this comparison - but a (new) Honda CRF 300 Rally (big road legal trail bike) is £200 more than the Cotic frame; but for a full motorbike. I know 'economics of scale' / production automation / salaries but it just highlights that something is wrong.
https://www.hondaofbournemouth.co.uk/products/new-honda-bikes-honda-of-bournemouth-crf300l-rally
I think a bigger issue is why a frame and motor should cost £6.5k
The trek above is about £1k cheaper than the cotic for a similar spec, so a Cotic full bike is in the ball park pricewise.
The frame only price is a bit misleading, as Cotic won't actually sell you a frame, but they will let you to send them a bunch of your bits that they'll then build into a bike so the frame only price (I assume) includes the cost of doing that.
I'm normally a big Cotic fan (I have four, and am thinking about adding a BFe to the collection) but can't believe that we're three pages in and I'm the first to shout 'JUDAS!' at them.
I’m not in the market for an e-bike (I just bought a Mondraker Neat). However, I love the idea of this Cotic. For the first while, the look grated on me. But honestly, it doesn’t look any worse than a bike with a frame bag imo. So, after less than a day, the look has grown on me.
One of the reasons I bought the Neat was the removable battery. And I bought a range extender for the Neat. So the ability to remove and swap the batteries on the Cotic seems like a winning idea to me.
all in all, I’d have to say - good work Cotic.
I’m growing to like it especially given the rationale behind it. It’s certainly better looking than the Trek above, and all the others with massive down tubes.
I do think that bike manufacturers just have to have an e-bike or they lose sales. Which is a real shame but a business has to survive.
Still not ready for one mind!
Still not ready for one mind!
That's what everyone says until they spend the day on one 🙂
It does look great, maybe one for my list if/when I replace my Levo SL. However, as with all ebikes, one of my key prerequisites is purchasing from a local bike shop, within an hour of home for when it breaks. It will break, they all do, and I couldn't be doing with the faff of shipping a bike somewhere every time it has an error message or something doesn't fire up on the motor/battery front.
I wonder if there is a plan for local dealer support ? (I am west of Glasgow)
Looks like something you'd have bought in 2016 imo..
I always use this comparison – but a (new) Honda CRF 300 Rally (big road legal trail bike)
In the nicest possible way; so what? (few) People are making the purchase choice between a motor bike and a pedal cycle for a leisure spend. E-bikes cost what they cost. Given how many really nice ones I saw at Llandegla a couple of weekends ago, it doesn't seem to be putting many folks off from getting one.
I'm always intrigued by people discussing how eebs look. It's an eeb for Pete's sake. That horse has already well and truly bolted ?
I’m always intrigued by people discussing how eebs look. It’s an eeb for Pete’s sake. That horse has already well and truly bolted ?
I know what you're saying, but eebs are certainly evolving into better looking versions of big chunky things only a mother could love.
Batteries are getting slimmer which means more normal looking frames.
Not much you can do with a steel frame I don't suppose but a frame bag battery would be great, albeit I imagine expensive to produce.
“ I always use this comparison – but a (new) Honda CRF 300 Rally (big road legal trail bike) is £200 more than the Cotic frame; but for a full motorbike. I know ‘economics of scale’ / production automation / salaries but it just highlights that something is wrong.”
The three really obvious differences are that dirt bikes and the tech behind them has barely changed in decades, they’re only made in one size, and the weight barely matters because the engines are so powerful.
Battery electric stuff is expensive at the moment. Making things in multiple sizes costs more. Making things light (but strong enough for gnarly riding) is really really expensive. And in this case, UK manufacture adds cost.
If you’re happy with a 150kg ebike running on lead acid batteries, made in one size, I’m sure it can be made far more cheaply!
I feel like this is a Bosch motor and some sort of less roof box looking custom external battery off being spot on personally. Could we not have slid single row of battery up the down tube and had a more range extender looking external battery? *I know nothing about battery cells*
“Could we not have slid single row of battery up the down tube and had a more range extender looking external battery? *I know nothing about battery cells*”
A custom made battery would cost a huge amount to develop and thus require very big sales volume.
ogden
I feel like this is a Bosch motor and some sort of less roof box looking custom external battery off being spot on personally. Could we not have slid single row of battery up the down tube and had a more range extender looking external battery? *I know nothing about battery cells*
It's tough for Cotic, because the two things you are highlighting are two things they just haven't got control over - Bosch motor requires ordering thousands of units, which they can't commit to, and the battery and enclosure are Shimano parts, and that's how they come
I think the side by side with the Rail (kudos for picking the really ugly Rail with the tan tyres, @slackboy) shows that it's a genuinely good looking bike, but the battery makes it look like an older generation of eBike and that counts against it more than the actual aesthetics
I always use this comparison – but a (new) Honda CRF 300 Rally (big road legal trail bike
I have to agree with this but there are better examples available.
Or this.
https://starkfuture.com/en-us-GB/products/stark-varg
Kind of puts to bed any talk of new development costs. Stark started from scratch as a company and developed the bike in a very short time.
MTB's of any kind are over priced and we as MTBers try and justify it.
I refuse point black to pay that much money for an MTB.
“ Kind of puts to bed any talk of new development costs.
MTB’s of any kind are over priced and we as MTBers try and justify it.”
If MTBs were significantly overpriced then the businesses would be super profitable and investors would be piling in to make money from these cash cows.
Making strong things light has always been expensive and probably always will be.
There you go.
Trying to justify it. ;o)
Cotic bikes are ugly at the best of times.
That looks like someone took an old frame and put a DIY kit on it.
The pricing is deluded as well.
"Trying to justify it. ;o)"
I don't work there - and I haven't bought a Cotic since my Soul back in 2010. However I do run a UK business making light and strong things - and they'd be SO MUCH CHEAPER to make if they weren't light.
I know it wouldn't work with the vertical shock design in this instance, but I was also wondering why there are no external batteries that are in triangular cases which people could integrate nicely into the bottom of the front triangle. Nice low weight distribution and you don't really see that area of the frame anyway, I'd imagine it could be pretty universal too as seat tube and downtube angle aren't that different across most frames.
It isn't really worth the time and cost to develop though I'd imagine unless a battery manufacturer had a nice chunky order with a big brand to offset all the initial costs against.
I think even having the battery cover the same colour as the frame would make it look loads better...
If MTBs were significantly overpriced then the businesses would be super profitable and investors would be piling in to make money from these cash cows.
Making strong things light has always been expensive and probably always will be.
I too get fed up with the motor bike analogy and the weird lack of huge profits by the money grabbing bike companies
A race winning push bike is say £15,000 ish. A motor bike at that level is several hundred thousand. I remember looking at this before. You can pay £5000 for a brake calliper for a top end motor bike
You're comparing apples with oranges there.
No one is running 5 grand caliper on MX or Enduro bikes.
A stock MX bike takes very little money to make it competitive at national level.
And if you think MTBs at world cups are not sporting hand made stuff that costs a fortune your not looking close enough.
Go on Ebay and find a Saint Crank with an OChain fitted and tell me how much it costs....
Don't get me wrong I'm no ludite I'm all for new technology and own an Ebike and several bikes with pretty expensive shocks and forks but I'm under no illusion that bike companys are trying to pull our pants down.
“I’m under no illusion that bike companys are trying to pull our pants down.”
Unfortunately the economics of business disagrees with you. Business people aren’t stupid - if they spot a niche where money can be made easily they will fill it. Where are all the big money start-ups or investment buy-outs? Seems more like it’s companies going bust in recent times…
Everyone who isn’t in manufacturing thinks everything can be made for pennies but it’s not like that at all, especially when those things have to be safe, strong, light and made to tight tolerances. Even cardboard boxes cost more than you’d expect!
Yep Giant, Spech, Trek all going bust...
All I'm saying is It's still a relatively new and growing market and they're charging what they can get away with.
Not helped by folks trying to justify it.
It's not going to stop me riding and buying new bikes but as someone who grew up with the boom of MX and then decline I see a pattern happening.
I’m with the DJI replies.
- small powerful motor
- slimmer battery
- made in Taiwan so I can afford one.
Also the spec list has plenty of room for lighter parts if that’s your thing.
I can see other steel bike producers following/copying.
If you ride an eBike you can't be too imagine concise.
Away up there ^^^ I said :
However, as with all ebikes, one of my key prerequisites is purchasing from a local bike shop, within an hour of home for when it breaks. It will break, they all do, and I couldn’t be doing with the faff of shipping a bike somewhere every time it has an error message or something doesn’t fire up on the motor/battery front.
.. and whilst no one followed on it, the potential complications this presents would put me right off, unfortunately..
The looks have grown on me and the design decisions make sense so I hope it does well for Cotic, but the price just doesn't look competitive. It'd be interesting to know why their frame only offering is really just a fully custom build.
“It’d be interesting to know why their frame only offering is really just a fully custom build.”
They’ve said it’s to meet legal requirements for selling ebikes. Does anyone sell frame-only e-bikes?
I asked as Bird were intending to sell frame/motor etc only ebikes and Static currently do.
Riding my fatbike this morning, which has a full inner triangle frame bag, it got me thinking that if the Cotic maybe had a custom frame bag that hid the battery and allowed a small amount of zipped storage above, I'd be quite into that.
I don't mind a bike with a frame bag and the lovely slender steel tubing would work well with a bag.
I've expertly mocked up a professional Photoshop rendering of it.
That Intra-drive looks good, even bolted to an Orange. But how much, £10k? I'd also need to budget a few belt tensioner spares.
https://www.intra-drive.com/product_EMTB/
I don't want the eeb but though, I just want a lovely steel full suss gearbox enduro sort of bike
It’s not a looker with that battery, but having read the full article (the ‘development history’) and the rationale behind it all I get the reasons why. It’s going to split opinion for sure.
The thought of a full-power e-bike that weighs <22kg, in the XL/C5 size I need, with geometry I know works for me, from a company I like…
A few days on from me writing the above… After the ‘acclimatisation’ period, this’d now be top of my (theoretical) e-bike shopping list. It’d be between this and a Saturn 16 MGU, but that Nicolai is a ridiculously weighty thing. Decided I care much more about how a bike rides than looks - within reason. Obviously not ridden one but I like how every other Cotic I’ve owned (8 of them…) , so it’d be a safe bet.
Not that I’m the market for any £8k+ e-bike.
“ Decided I care much more about how a bike rides than looks – within reason.”
I was looking through my Strava pics and was shocked at how awful my Levo looks vs my Moxie that’s in most of the recent ones. I really don’t notice when I’m with it - either it looks better in person than in photos or it’s so much fun that I look on it with very rose-tinted glasses!
I’d be quite into that.
At one point, that was considered. With a shelf built into the bag to carry stuff above the battery. It would make it much harder to take the battery off though, and it being such little hassle to remove or swap the battery proved to be a big benefit during testing.
@weeksy - we hired Kenovo SL's up the Golfie the other week, it was great fun but confirmed to me that my fitness is part of my pleasure. I'm not a hater, quite the opposite, I lap up all the ebike stuff, just not ready to stop pedalling myself yet.
That time will come and they will be truly amazing by then...
As for the Cotic, its already grown on me but I'm too tight to spend that kind of money.
Thing is @mugboo , it doesn't need to be one or the other, it can be both.
This week I did 2 Eeb and 2 manuals, but they were different rides with different goals and different terrain. Today's Eeb ride I would still be out now 3 hours later trying to finish in the slop if I were on the Status. But at times like you, I want the fitness, training etc.
Buying an ebike doesn't have to mean it's all you ride ever.
Buying an ebike doesn’t have to mean it’s all you ride ever.
I must remember that. They seem like an addictive drug to me
They seem like an addictive drug to me
That's true, it's very easy to get sucked into as it changes how you ride trails, trails that were a chore for example, they're now hit at pace and become fun. So it's easy to get hooked into hitting everything faster as that's fun as we all know.
But I guess you need a bit of self discipline to ensure you keep using the manual
New Calibre Bossnut announced this week - £1500 for what looks a very capable bike with a reasonable spec.
£8.5k eBikes (not aimed just at Cotic) - I struggle to see where the extra £7k goes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
They seem like an addictive drug to me
That’s why I sold mine
I like it. Form following function and practical experience. I think it looks better than the really fat downtubed ebikes albeit not as good as the really sleek lightweight ones.
I’m not looking to buy an ebike like this for a good few years (/decades, hopefully) but I hope something like this is stil around. On a shorter timescale i’d be interested to see a gearbox bike coming off this as suggested above.
Major disappointment is that it wasn’t called something like the ArcJeht or Orion or something!
Given the arguments for weight saving of having the battery non-integrated in the tube and so on, and the desire for bikes to actually feel like bikes when you ride them... why attach the battery to the frame at all. Seems like the next step is to decouple the battery from the bike completely and wear it. They're bout the same weight as a hydration bladder and I use one of those because I'd rather the weight of the water was on my back than on the bike
They didn’t catch on.
I think they'd probably catch on most things 🙂
At one point, that was considered. With a shelf built into the bag to carry stuff above the battery. It would make it much harder to take the battery off though, and it being such little hassle to remove or swap the battery proved to be a big benefit during testing.
The battery needn't be IN the bag. It could be like a bag above and then the bottom section is basically open but on velcro so you simply lift a side or both sides to get to it.
My Orbea Wild has a removable battery behind a small panel that comes off with a tool-free twist lock. I have a spare smaller capacity battery that gets used for big shuttle rides and it's an absolute doddle to change the battery to be honest, plus you also have the advantage that the battery itself isn't completely covered in mud and crap.
A friend had one of the earlier Focus Jam bikes which had a piggyback battery in addition to the main, integrated frame battery, so similar mounting style to the Cotic (presumably). He had to attach a short plugged cable from the battery to the frame to use the piggyback. Presumably the Cotic is electrically-attached by just sliding it onto the mount?
I'm sure things have improved, but the piggyback battery on his Focus always had a tiny bit of play in it which gave you an annoying, audible rattle on a downhill.
But yeah, I think a frame bag with liftable covers on the lower part would both hide the battery, AND keep all the crap off it too.
Just a thought 🙂
Looks like a steel version of my 2018 Vitus E-Sommet. Which was brilliant bike, alloy, 23.5kg in XL with proper tyres etc. Was also £3300 but that was then etc
Still think my 2023 Wild looks better though, even though the battery isn't (easily) removable. Also not £3300
Personally I'd much rather have something that's easy to maintain in our great British climate. Never understood why instead of applauding a British manufacturer for doing something different, we just bash them for being too expensive and too out of touch. Same with Orange. I like the fact the battery isn't bespoke to the bike and I like the fact it can be removed entirely for swaps or for charging. Sadly I don't have ten grand and I don't want an e-bike, but if I did, I'd absolutely be considering one of these. I applaud Cy for doing his own thing and not building another four-bar e-bike that looks like every other four-bar e-bike out of a far-eastern gigafactory.
I think a lot of these big swoppy carbon things enclose the motor so much that if any water or muck does get in it sits there causing trouble. My mate has a Santa Cruz and they as good as told him that trapped moisture gets boiled by the hot motor and fritzes it. Even though the power cable is properly sealed by our motor cover, water and muck can drain out of ours. We wouldn’t have used Shimano if we didn’t think it was up to the job.
Thats reassuring to know when my EP801 bike (rise) turns up. It does fit with anecdotal stuff you read on the web too about moisture in the motor being the killer. I am tempted to buy a small dehumidifier to put in the cabinet where I will keep my Rise.
My other half’s Rise sits next to a dehumidifier. Gets throughly dried out before going on charge.
When you see the new Rocket next to Cotic's other full sus bikes, it doesn't actually look too bad.
https://www.cotic.co.uk/bikes/full-suspension