You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Many replies later and no one has debunked any of the facts I posted.
What are your views on being able to access local shops and amenities within a 15 minute walk or bike ride?
there’s zero marginal cost for digital goods
Well, I'm assuming that the various journalists aren't working for free. So, in your example, any content not generated by the forum members does have a cost. There's currently a choice (and Mark has made it clear it is his choice) being made to employ journalists over more forum tech team.
Many replies later and no one has debunked any of the facts I posted.
TBH, there's already a thread for that discussion. Crack on over there, but read through it first as you'll find much of the ground already covered, hence nobody bothering to repeat it all.
What are your views on being able to access local shops and amenities within a 15 minute walk or bike ride?
Fine in theory so long as it's done through a carrot rather than a stick approach, oh and with the full consent of the people who live there. But in Oxford the vast majority do not want it. But the council are railroading it through anyway. So no, not fine in this instance. Same with London ULEZ. Now onto the facts I wrote. I assume since you provided the diversion, you can't debunk any of them. Seriously, you guys are pathetic.
Now onto the facts I wrote.
If you pay for a subscription I’ll happily talk to you all day about your ‘facts’. You want an argument? Then pay for it or go back to Facebook.
If you pay for a subscription I’ll happily talk to you all day about your ‘facts’. You want an argument? Then pay for it or go back to Facebook.
I think we both know that me paying for a subscription is not going to happen, but nice try once again to deflect. There's no argument to be had in any case as all the facts I posted are exactly that - facts.
£25 per year to support a brilliant community
Having been on the receiving end of abuse for being a free member I'd dispute that assessment. If I was paying to be abused it would be by a 6 foot redhead (and I don't really go for financial domination).
That's the problem, some people think just because they've paid a membership then it entitles them to act like arseholes to everyone else. That's not an exclusively STW problem, it's a society problem. Drivers, tax payers, higher rate tax payers, council tax payers - all the same entitled [use your imagination].
As I said, I've explained my logic. And regardless of my reasons or circumstance very few if any people on here make their personal circumstances known. The way folk try to shame folk on here regarding membership status is really shitty. I bet none of the ones that do have said anything to Gnusmas. How many others do you think might be lurking undetected? I honestly haven't found this on any forum anywhere else, even when contributer status is acknowledged and that includes the shooting forums where the lefties are a small minority.
The sad irony is, it's exactly those people that put folk off from subscribing. I'm the sort of person that wouldn't now out of sheer bloody mindedness. Funny that, abuse people and they want nothing to do with helping your community. Double irony.
There’s no argument to be had in any case as all the facts I posted are exactly that – facts.
There’s no argument, because you told us that your opinion is fixed, so who’s going to bother hitting their head against that particular wall? You said…
But I do not need to be educated or have my opinion changed thank you.
…so why would anyone try to engage? Waste of time.
…so why would anyone try to engage? Waste of time.
But people have engaged, but with infantile responses and ad-hominem type stuff. Par for the course for when I was last on here in 2020. People who realise they have been wrong all along have to resort to this kind of playground type stuff I guess to deflect from the truth. Rather sad IMO.
People who realise they have been wrong all along have to resort to this kind of playground type stuff I guess to deflect from the truth
No one has engaged with your “truth” because it would take pages and pages of responses and to and fro to walk through what you posted… and it’s all been done already… again and again. Where as a quick response asking you to post in and read the Covid thread takes no time at all. Try that, and see if people will respond there tomorrow.
The way folk try to shame folk on here regarding membership status is really shitty.
References to supporting Singletrack here in this thread are simply because that’s what this thread is about… people bringing it back to that, rather than going though an off topic rant point by point, aren’t bullying.
It makes no sense for them to cannibalise the “digital subscription” for a “forum only subscription”
Well, not necessarily...
Lets assume for a second that none of the people who are regulars change their subs levels to the lower level for a moment.
But a Forum only at £15 a year brought in another 5000 members who signed up at that rate... then surely it does make sense.. All of this assumes they're thnking the £25 (or whatever it is) is too expensive, but £15 is acceptable. So in some ways it could make a difference. If we assume it's correct that there's 130,000 member/signed up... there's got to be scope to get some more money in the coffers somehow. There could be loads at home thinking "i'm not paying for a magazine i won't ever read"... "but i'd pay just for a forum"
...yet you keep coming back. Have bored the tits off everyone else in your life with your teenage drivel?
Well, I’m assuming that the various journalists aren’t working for free. So, in your example, any content not generated by the forum members does have a cost. There’s currently a choice (and Mark has made it clear it is his choice) being made to employ journalists over more forum tech team.
@scotroutes Sure, but that’s content generated for the print mag already.
And yes, he’s not going to replace journalists with programmers. It also sounds like his actual decision is potentially sadly much harder than that, and not beneficial to anyone 😞
Lastly, if STW was purely a forum with user generated content, it’s very unlikely that people would be happy to pay any meaningful money for it. “Just use Reddit!”
The way folk try to shame folk on here regarding membership status is really shitty.
Exactly my thoughts.
Just stop, it ain't helpful and sounds like an attack on members who are struggling juggling their finances.
+1 Marko & Solar on their last points.
Worth looking here: STW Financials
As someone who has bought and sold a few businesses, I'm not sure it looks all that healthy but maybe the paid for accounts reveal something different. If you are going to subscribe, my advice based on these financials, would be to pay your subs monthly rather than all up front.
But a Forum only at £15 a year brought in another 5000 members who signed up at that rate… then surely it does make sense.. All of this assumes they’re thnking the £25 (or whatever it is) is too expensive, but £15 is acceptable. So in some ways it could make a difference. If we assume it’s correct that there’s 130,000 member/signed up… there’s got to be scope to get some more money in the coffers somehow. There could be loads at home thinking “i’m not paying for a magazine i won’t ever read”… “but i’d pay just for a forum”
I can't see 5000 being realistic in any way- in fact I'd be surprised if more than a few hundred would sign up.
I'd be interested in seeing (but I'm sure Mark's not going to publish) a breakdown of number of users/pageviews/posts. It may be confirmation bias, but I would guess that a large proportion of the signups are gone/"backup" id's/one off or very occasional users. The core content creators on here probably number no more than a couple of hundred or so.
In my opinion, the need isn't to extract more money from the existing users, it's to grab new users and monetise them. I've been on here a long time (issue 3 to establish my heritage) like many others, and am now in my 60's- the demographic is ageing, and it'd be great if there more younger riders coming on. the board. Off the top of my head weeksy, kryton, Tracey and matt_outandabout all have kids who are keen cyclists and their parents write of their kids, but I doubt that any of those kids have any interest in being part of Singletrack.
I can see Mark's point- he's not after world domination, just providing the necessary income for a small group of people, and that's a great attitude, but I'm not sure that asking the existing fanbase to keep things going by itself is the right decision.
Obviously all the above is guesswork, not the thoughts of a professional. I must say I'm really surprised nobody has suggested bringing in the consultants......
.
A passive aggressive encore to the flounce - diva level foruming 😂
Off the top of my head weeksy, kryton, Tracey and matt_outandabout all have kids who are keen cyclists and their parents write of their kids, but I doubt that any of those kids have any interest in being part of Singletrack.
Yeah i'm afraid we won't see the boy on here... He's very much part of the Insta/Snapchat generation rather than forums.
Wowsers. This took a turn!
Until the top of page 6 this was a respectful debate on all sides. Then the lunatics took over the asylum.
Worth reflecting on the whole non-subscriber bashing. The community that Mark has created does not compel anybody to pay. It seems that for entirely positive reasons that is something that Mark holds dear and I respect that. The self appointed lynchmob appear to take a different view, but let’s hold a mirror up to that argument. Let’s assume for a moment that we all agree that somehow if you don’t subscribe, your perspective is somehow diminished. Is the following also true?
1) Because I don’t pay road tax for my bike, I shouldn’t ride on the road?
2) Because I pay more tax than somebody else my voice and vote should count more?
3) Because I am better educated than somebody else they should not be allowed a voice or a vote?
4) Because I am disabled and cannot work and therefore don’t pay into the public accounts but instead take from them in the form of benefits that I should not have a voice or a vote at all?
Everybody’s financial and philosophical position is different and just to reinforce the earlier point, nobody is compelled to pay to be here. It has been suggested but rejected. Therefore, who has the authority or right to stand in judgement?
The trouble with Animal Farm is that in the end not all animals are equal. Some people have appointed themselves as STW Napoleon, despite their apparent left leaning egalitarian facade.
The point at which the debate descended (and sorry Mark but you did little to lead by example) was the point at which I exited but I didn’t want my silence to be misinterpreted, or for the kind of behaviour which is unfortunately typical of how things end up around here to go unchallenged. The community that you hold so dear cannot be mob led or offensive if it is to be a welcoming place for more subscribers. As Charlie so rightly tried to point out, it’s just about bikes chaps!
The community that you hold so dear cannot be mob led or offensive if it is to be a welcoming place for more subscribers.
As you may or may not be aware, i own a motorbike forum, https://revtothelimit.co.uk/index.php
It's smaller than this place, but in terms of postings, it compares well/better with most if not all UK motorbike forums. But we have the same issue there, the same issues on PB forum, the same issues on other forums, which is the perception of some members that they're more important and own their right to preach to everyone along with the perception from newbies that they won't quite 'fit in' as there's cliques. Neither Mark (and his staff) or myself can do a hell of a lot about that.. We can only TRY to keep the forum nice and sweet and happy. But people have different views in the world. Sadly this world has moved now to where people cannot debate. All the can do is throw words out and preach, but they rarely listen in return. It's a damn shame, but it's the reality of society. The mods here may not do a perfect job, but they do it better than 99.9% of people on here, who don't offer their services for the job. It's an unrewarding job that's for sure.
non-subscriber bashing
Some of this isn’t that at all. It is calling out someone creating a new account to rant in this thread about their worldview and against Singletrack. Don’t confuse response to that new account with a more general attack on people with free accounts.
Having not been on the Covid thread for a while I hadn't realised Andrew Bridgen had joined the forum?
“i’m not paying for a magazine i won’t ever read”… “but i’d pay just for a forum”
This. I would make a donation if it was east todo.
Also, I feel inferior because of my Free Member tag :(. But hey, the internet shuffles on 🙂
Perhaps the site forum should be Archived, and we all say goodbye :((((
Angus’s rant was so bizarre that I can see past it. It isn’t worth the air time and too many people have credited it with legitimacy by rising to the bait already.
Be under no illusion however, whether intentional, whether malicious or whether accidental there is plenty of direct non-subscriber bashing in this thread beyond the response to Angus’s rant (picks up cup of tea and a hobnob now that he has now also placed himself in Angus’s crosshairs…………)
The donation page is in the 'More' sub menu at the top of the page
The donation page is in the ‘More’ sub menu at the top of the page
MAybe that's not where it ought to be 😉
Can we have a 'hide forum member' button!? I'd pay for that! 🙂
Yeah - and donation button needs to be more prominent. You need to update the date too, still has 2022 on it. And why no Paypal? There's got to be a lot more Paypal users than GooglePay. And filling out card details is like, soooo old fashioned! 🤣
I struggled to payup this year when my sub needed renewing. Basically because of the way this thread has gone.
A few posters were debating some things, quite amicably and then someone decides they're gonna get snarky thinking they know better and then theres a pile on. Then someone comes on and totally derails the thread and turns it into an absolute shit fest.
Even the mods and the site owner get involved, when the whole thread is supposed to trying to generate new members!!! Yeah thats gonna work.
I keep seeing people say it's only £2 a month, but it isn't. Its £5 a month or £25 annually (digi) or £45 annually (paper). Its not about whether or not people can afford to pay £25 but if they want to payout £25 or £45 in one go. Give more options and you might get more members. I know someone will say, "well it's half the price of a tyre". Yeah it is, but people put value on a tyre that they are clearly not seeing here. Better content, different payment options (even with higher prices) might bring in more memebers. But really, I reckon you've hit a ceiling with the paper subs as paper mags must be on their way out, so the effort needs to be put in somewhere else to generate more paying members.
Anyway, this thread has gone to shit after being quite intersting so i'm floucing out as well!
[url= https://i.postimg.cc/Gh3m9qnD/flounce.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.postimg.cc/Gh3m9qnD/flounce.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
Mark - Charities need donations, businesses don’t. Monetise what you are good and you won’t need handouts to get by. Revenue and profit to reinvest really aren’t dirty words. They are the best way to protect your people’s futures.
FACT! 😉
At least make the button prominent and call it an honesty box (unless of course you are going to take me up on the earlier suggestion of becoming an actual registered charity?).
If you can see through the smoke of the pitch torches 😉 or hear over the baying mob, there’s plenty of good feedback in this thread if you want to see it.
Mark – Charities need donations, businesses don’t.
Tell that to The Guardian, Wikipedia and Politicians! 🙂
The Guardian relied on print and print is dead.
Wikipedia set up a free model and realised that at some point they had to monetise to survive.
2 brilliant cautionary tales for STW…………
The Guardian relied on print and print is dead.
No it isn't - it's reduced.
And you can argue technology has made it easier for the likes of STW to exist - high quality, short runs and mailed direct from the printers. And the rapid advancement of digital presses is helping even more.
All the major daily papers are still on the shelf and my local newsagent is full of magazines. Local papers have gone as they were full of rubbish anyway.
Physical books were going to be killed off by Kindles - but they've seen a resurgence.
They've been saying print is dead for 30+ years.
[i]the-muffin-man
Been in the print trade all me life - boy and man![/i] 🙂
Wow. That was fun catching up.
Nothing to say on the subs model or the rights and wrongs of free members / whether their opinion is more or less valuable because they haven't subscribed.
More on the subject of advice, which I've fallen foul of in the past and i don't think we do well on here - how many threads have their been where 'give me some advice on..... rapidly turns into NO NOT THAT ADVICE!!!!
Advice is like an unsolicited present.
The receiver should thank the giver for it and then decide what to do with it; maybe it'll take pride of place on the sideboard, maybe it'll be in Oxfam before the week's out.
The giver needs to accept that too. Just because someone chooses to ignore, or explain why the advice doesn't fit with their plan, shouldn't be taken as offence. Once the advice is given it belongs to them to do with what they want.
There are some threads / posters that i won't engage on now because advice given freely and in good faith has been rejected in ways that I find a little rude. I accept that they don't want the advice, no point keep popping back up and repeating it.
Sage advise JonV.
It’s becoming a circular debate (punctuated by off topic rants and abusive exchanges), and one which I respectfully left 4 pages ago.
My intention was not to reignite points already made, so apologies for that.
Simply resurfaced to call for a little respect and to call off the dogs and fell into a trap of my own making!
The irony of this thread is that I was considering resubscribing but in a sad twist of irony it has cemented exactly why I unsubscribed 12 months ago.
exactly why I unsubscribed 12 months ago
Funnily enough, I’m the opposite. My sub ended and I tried to stay away, couldn’t so took up the half price offer. A nice compromise I thought. Back to the topic and on the strength of some of the above posts, I think if I were Mark I’d just close the forum down and have done with it.
I think STW should get Angus to write an article every month. He's funny 🙂
Local papers have gone as they were full of rubbish anyway.
Bit of a tangent, but a lot of local newspapers used to be really good.
But the internet took all the classifieds and most of the small business advertising, and they went from being well-staffed with low-paid journalists in the local area to poorly staffed with low-paid journalists in an "editorial hub" 50 miles away.
And they are much thinner because of the lack of ads.
And their websites are a nightmare of intrusive and annoying adverts.
Maybe there's a parallel with STW there, but I'm not gonna force it.
I think STW should get Angus to write an article in Flat Earthers Monthly every month. He’s funny 🙂
FTFY
It’s becoming a circular debate (punctuated by off topic rants and abusive exchanges), and one which I respectfully left 4 pages ago.
And yet here you still are. The only reason it's a circular debate is because people such as yourself keep posting the same arguments again and again even though they've already been refuted or rejected as being unworkable or directly damaging to the business that runs this forum. I'm sorry that you are offended by people disagreeing with you, but there really has been no 'pile-on' and there really isn't any anti-free member clique or movement on here. All there is is people openly expressing their views, and just like in real life, some of us do that more directly than others.
Now, do you have a new point to make about subscriptions and how the magazine can improve it's financial health? If so please make it, but be prepared for some people to disagree with it.
because advice given freely and in good faith has been rejected in ways that I find a little rude.
So you're complaining because some of us aren't polite enough? If I was to turn that around I could easily argue that those of us who haven't had the education and upbringing to be so eloquent and charming in putting across our arguments could be excluded from contributing. I'm not going to argue that though because I'm perfectly capable of standing up for myself and not being offended at having my views challenged.
Even the mods and the site owner get involved, when the whole thread is supposed to trying to generate new members!!! Yeah thats gonna work.
That’ll be me. You’ll see I thanked people for signing up for a prescription. I’ve not knocked anyone anyone for being free members as well have a choice.
those saying "print is dead" are pretty clueless IMO, yeah the heyday might be over but you've only got to look at the shelves in any newsagents or supermarket to see rows & rows of magazines.Maybe there’s a parallel with STW there, but I’m not gonna force it.
My dad still buys "Railway Modeller" every month, they have a circulation of almost 29k including 12k subscribers! And I don't think it's necessarily that everyone who's into it is tech-illiterate either, as YouTube etc is massive and there are lots of very popular forums.
I think there [I]is[/I] a distinct difference in attitude though; your average model train enthusiast actually enjoys spending money on magazines/books, local shows, paying a bit more to support local model shop/small businesses etc whereas a lot of MTBers I encounter (no-one on here, of course 😉) is as tight as a gnat's chuff, won't pay for anything unless there's a gun to their head & only buys the cheapest grey-imports off of big online sellers, as for them all they do is ride (solo) and cannot see/appreciate the "community" aspect of the hobby 🤔
Daz, if you are going to selectively quote, please don’t edit for effect. Since you failed to, here’s the rest of what I said:
My intention was not to reignite points already made, so apologies for that.
Simply resurfaced to call for a little respect and to call off the dogs and fell into a trap of my own making!
Unfortunately you are attributing your second quote to me, but it is not something that I wrote. Perhaps take that up with the original author.
I am happy to disagree and debate and be proven wrong and concede. I’m also happy to concede that some of my points have been overly made (but it is clear that I am not alone in my thoughts).
It’s all in the delivery and upbringing, education and eloquence or lack thereof should not be an excuse for uncivil behaviour. I am not challenging your ability to defend your point at all, so please don’t take offence. It is clear that you are only too ready to ease in and offer your perspective and defend your position and the position of others.
Unfortunately you are attributing your second quote to me, but it is not something that I wrote. Perhaps take that up with the original author.
I was replying to theotherjonv. By quoting the point it should be pretty obvious that I'm responding to that point and hence to the person who posted it. It is possible you know to respond to multiple points and posters in one post. 🙂
so please don’t take offence.
I don't take offence at anything on here. Well there was one time I did, but that involved accusations of being a nazi sympathiser. Anything else though is fair game.
whereas a lot of MTBers I encounter (no-one on here, of course 😉) is as tight as a gnat’s chuff, won’t pay for anything unless there’s a gun to their head & only buys the cheapest grey-imports off of big online sellers, as for them all they do is ride (solo) and cannot see/appreciate the “community” aspect of the hobby
Hello!
I appreciate the community, in theory, just so long as I don't have to interact with it in person and it doesn't clog up my trails unnecessarily.
Actually, I would love to get back into the riding 'community' but my life schedule is currently dictated by a 6 year old and a 9 year old so it's solo rides and grey market imports until they turn 16 and I can legally kick them out the house.
that involved accusations of being a nazi sympathiser
Ah, STW at its best 😀
Unfortunately this thread, like so many on here, has descended from a sensible debate and discussion on a topic to a rant fest and become increasingly unpleasant in tone. Im not sure this reflects to well on the ‘community’ most are passionate about. Im completely bemused as to how the last 3 or 4 pages are meant to help broaden that community
I thought this thread started in a pretty constructive way so I’ve followed with interest. The last four pages have mostly reminded me there are parts of the forum I give a swerve and why I’d rather not be seen wearing anything Singletrack branded in public. Who wants to be associated with all that shit?
because advice given freely and in good faith has been rejected in ways that I find a little rude.
So you’re complaining because some of us aren’t polite enough? If I was to turn that around I could easily argue that those of us who haven’t had the education and upbringing to be so eloquent and charming in putting across our arguments could be excluded from contributing. I’m not going to argue that though because I’m perfectly capable of standing up for myself and not being offended at having my views challenged.
No, just making the point that having given the advice and had it rejected, rather than particularly take offence and / or keep going back and making the point over and over again I should accept they don't want it. As indeed I said
The giver needs to accept that too. Just because someone chooses to ignore, or explain why the advice doesn’t fit with their plan, shouldn’t be taken as offence. Once the advice is given it belongs to them to do with what they want.
As regards 'not being polite enough'. What i wrote was
There are some threads / posters that i won’t engage on now because advice given freely and in good faith has been rejected in ways that I find a little rude. I accept that they don’t want the advice, no point keep popping back up and repeating it.
What's not clear from "some threads / posters" is that it's 98% threads that i'm just out of now because it's clear my advice isn't wanted; and very few actual posters that i won't engage with. There are a couple though.
Back to the present analogy - the receiver that says 'thanks, but it doesn't really fit with my decor, would you mind if i took it back and swapped for something else' vs 'Why the **** have you bought me this. What a hideous thing!' - you don't need to be eloquent and charming to understand why the second response makes me unwilling to buy you another present.
Not even a porcelain poppy?
Who wants to be associated with all that shit?
That probably explains why Mark doesn't want STW to be a forum-oriented business. Lots of people on this thread seem to have a problem with that though. 🤷♂️
I feel for Mark because in his position I’d want to chuck the forum in a skip and walk away but he can’t, his business is tied to it. As a user I love the forum but it’s easy for me, I just look at the bits I like with no obligation to deal with the bits I don’t.
I feel for Mark because in his position I’d want to chuck the forum in a skip and walk away but he can’t, his business is tied to it.
Most jobs are like that - they'd be great if it weren't for the pesky customers! 🙂
As a user I love the forum but it’s easy for me, I just look at the bits I like with no obligation to deal with the bits I don’t
The problem is, if you don't allow all the other garbage bits, people don't come to the forum. This place and others like it are great because they allow talk about life, politics, stuff, even if 50% of the other lot don't want to read it, it's all content and brings people back time and time again.
The Guardian relied on print and print is dead.
Wikipedia set up a free model and realised that at some point they had to monetise to survive.
2 brilliant cautionary tales for STW…………
I see two media organisations that distribute information, that can be accessed for free, and also ask the users for support. The word donation is used, but it is also an exchange of goods/services. If you give the guardian money, they will give you news, opinions, recipes, travelogs etc and a better online experience. A bit like STW.
Print is not dead... vinyl is not dead, books are not dead. There are now other ways to consume the same information. So, if you write a book, magazine or record a wonderful one track prog rock triple album that conjures up imagery of turbo colourful space travel via the medium of feedback and powertools (for example)... the creative production is still required. You would then distribute it via all media channels that are available and viable. Write a book: serialise it, kinder it, print it, audio book it... Print is still part of the media mix.
Holy smokes people theres some real nasty stuff in here.
I personally agree with solarider on a lot of his points. Heres my thoughts. I apologise if they are not nice.
Paying to be a member doesnt make you better or worse than those that dont (although it appears there is an argument for worse based on some peoples approach)
I dont like the begging letters that seem all too frequent these days. It sounds like its all going to fold at any minute which makes me worried. it makes me think its not sustainable and the people running it are just sitting it out until they can fold it / sell it and retire.
There seems to be a significant number of visitors to the site that are not subscribers. Why is that? Is that just the market is saturated and the other members are actually a figment of our imagination? I dont know. But i do think that asking the existing subscribers to donate is both crass and short sighted. There clearly needs to be some input from a funding perspective and being propped up by goodwill donations wont work long term.
There needs to be either additional new members or a reduction in running costs it seems. Clearly the former is more favorable. what brings them in? better content?
There seems to be a bit of an issue with the singletrack identity? snow, tech? great in theory but if its alienating your core base then you need to think about it. Or is it time to be a tech mag? You cant be all things to all people.
I dont expect you to tell us but there needs to be a 1,3,5, 10 year plan i would have thought?
I do agree about the community aspect keeping it all going. Although i think this allows STW to publish sub par content as opposed to caving champions of the brand.
However keep up the good work chaps and chapesses 🙂
I dont like the begging letters that seem all too frequent these days.
We're back to the Guardian and Wikipedia again. 😉
One thing that I don't think has been mentioned... if people really want the forum/website to be more "transactional" and for there to be fewer requests for voluntary financial "support" (optional subscribing, donations, overpaying, using the shop)... do you want more content locked away and some forum functionality to be reduced for those that do not pay? The "everyone can use this freely" approach and the requests for voluntary support tend to go hand in hand.
Charlie - thanks for your input. Genuinely refreshing and measured.
A lot has been said already about a circular debate. I have personally received and acted on the feedback to respect that others might not agree with my thoughts and move on. I appreciate that either practically or philosophically we won’t agree on everything. I do somewhat regret that me ‘going on a bit’ might have diminished the validity of some of what I have offered up, but it doesn’t feel from the responses that I am a party of 1.
The difference between my view and yours is that I am not relying on you taking onboard my feedback for my income and the income of the people that I employ. You on the other hand need enough people to agree with you and put their money where their belief is.
I totally respect your view and your perspective is well put. Probably better put than any other post here, and perhaps what was needed all along was a ‘message from the sponsor’ to keep some perspective and sensible debate. But I am not the one requesting a donation from you to help me to perpetuate my belief.
With respect, and like many others here I will continue to enjoy the parts of the STW experience that I enjoy and that you happen not to charge for. They are clunky, a bit old and not that user friendly but so’s my old Land Rover and it doesn’t make me want to abandon it. I happen not to value the bits that you want to charge for and I have concerns that your content is niche enough that there simply aren’t enough people willing to agree with you. I think it is a case of agreeing to disagree. Your belief in ‘the mag’ (in its many forms) relies on a sufficient income from sufficient like minded people. Right now given the 2 appeals in a relatively short time, that sufficiency seems to be lacking.
STW will roll the dice, the trolls will continue to troll, we’ll all continue to ride bikes and the world will still spin (unless the events in Moscow this morning play out, in which case we will all get a healthy dose of perspective!).
To me this is a hobby. A lifelong passion even. I hope that STW will continue to form a small part of that.
The Guardian relied on print and print is dead.
You should visit a newsagent or bookstore, you might be surprised by what you find....
FWIW
Hannah's articles I've read on here in recent months on have been thought-provoking and got into some good subjects and issues, more of that sort of thing pls (and apologies if I've missed them before in the mag). I don't get to read work/trade copies of the mag anymore so I'm signing up for it again and her articles are a big part of why. Plus 'this'. KUTGW.
I dont like the begging letters that seem all too frequent these days.
+1 to what Kelvin says. I get asked by the guardian for money on a daily basis. It even reminds me how many articles I've read (too many!) for free. Given people moan on here about the odd Ad or clicking the accept cookies button, and how they don't like being guilt-tripped about being free users, I doubt they'd take too kindly to being repeatedly asked for money like you get on the guardian and wikipedia.
It sounds like its all going to fold at any minute which makes me worried. it makes me think its not sustainable and the people running it are just sitting it out until they can fold it / sell it and retire.
Then don't make assumptions and instead take what Mark says at face value. He's been very clear why he's pushing for more income, and it's not to prevent anything folding or to enable any retirements. People may criticise various things about STW, but a lack of honesty and transparency from the people running the business is not one of them.
Footflaps, I’ll just leave this here.
That the Daily Mail is doing the least badly should be a source of national shame. Nevertheless, looking across the board, how many years of 30% decline would it take to reach 0? These aren’t subjective views trying to prompt an argument.
And those newsagents and bookshops full of stock? Don’t assume they are ripping up trees in any other way than destroying forests for paper. Take a look at the annual reports of any convenience store chain, high street newsagent and bookseller.
Like Charlie suggested, there’s still a niche market for print just like there’s a market for vinyl records but I don’t see too many Our Price, Virgin, Tower Records or HMV taking up the empty shops on most high streets. Niche yes, scalable to the extent that it needs to be? You decide.
I am not here to convince and I really hope that STW work this one out.
Here's an idea that hasn't been mentioned (not here, although it has in the past). The climbers (and many non-climbers) on here will be aware of https://www.ukclimbing.com . Now I'm not sure where it gets it's money from (it's not subscriptions), but it seems to me that it's a good model for services that STW could perhaps provide. It has a route database, logbooks with practical feedback from climbers about how hard a climb is or reviews about a particular crag or location, and also an image gallery which can act as inspiration or give you an idea of what the climbing is like.
I know there are other websites such as trailforks doing similar for mountain biking, but they don't do it very well IMO and have struggled to gain much traction in the UK. Of course there's the 'footpath problem' to consider but there seems to be potential given STW's user base. So my question would be how many people here would use such a service and perhaps even pay for it?
The idea of a route compendium in printed form has been mentioned in this thread.
I spend countless hours staring at the OS map looking for different routes and certainly when riding in unfamiliar places I still use some of the old (and I am talking 25+ years old!) MBUK and MBR pull out maps. Yes I am really old. Yes I started on a 26 inch wheeled fully rigid splatter Kona with a 150mm stem and 150mm wide bars and thumbies!
Maybe there’s something in that content, albeit I am sure it isn’t cheap to produce.
Blimey Daz, that almost sounded like a civilised convergent conversation. Let’s stop it quickly before anybody else notices and thinks we have gone soft……..
Now I’m not sure where it gets it’s money from (it’s not subscriptions)
They do have their supporters/subscription option neither of which hides adverts.
One which gives a couple more forum options at 20 quid
Second is that plus the rockfax digital subscription.
Their advertising model is very focussed though from outdoor companies rather than generic stuff.
There seems to be a significant number of visitors to the site that are not subscribers. Why is that?
Personally, its because the magazine isn't relevant to me or my type of riding (last time I checked it was full of bike packing, riding in Mexico or something, grouptests of stuff that had been done to death already and articles written in the style of a C grade GCSE creative writing student - wasn't sure if it was intentional or not) and the online stuff I can access free a million times over via pinkbike/youtube/facebook/personal blogs etc so I was simply not getting what I'd deem as vfm from my subscription so I let it lapse.
Not sure if its just the print media thing... magazines I used to buy religiously (not just biking mags, loads of car ones too) seem to have gone right down the pan in recent years - Performane VW being the best example. Used to be brilliant - now absolute dog sheet. The content just isn't interesting and do I want to read about "news" that I'd read 2 months previously online? Magazines cost a fair whack to produce I assume (mention already of a 20% increase vs previous years to produce ST mag?) but personally, I'll flick through them once or twice and then they go in the recycling. The flip side of that is that I've never once read a magazine online...
When all is said and done, we can debate channel, media, format, the forum, the classifieds blah blah blah. What really matters is whether you are producing content in whatever format you see fit that enough people want to pay for whether through donation, subscription, luncheon vouchers, PayPal, whatever. Not a pejorative statement but certainly something that a few people have questioned (and continue to do so as we fast approach page 11!).
The trails are full of middle aged blokes who should know better stealing a crafty couple of hours away from the stresses of family, work, life etc. They ain’t backpacking across the Himalayas and brewing coffee up K2 every Sunday morning. I don’t know what it is, but produce something that they want. I am sure your revenue issues will be solved! My God, it’s so obvious and simple. Why didn’t anybody else think of that?!!!! 😉
Maybe there’s something in that content, albeit I am sure it isn’t cheap to produce.
The two obstacles are the cost of building the services and the effort of compiling a suitable database of trails/routes and somehow overcome the legal hurdles of promoting trails which don't have rights of access. The former is a straightforward one of how much the development and maintenance would cost and can it be raised? The second one is trickier. Trailforks and others use an open source model where it relies on riders to post routes, and that's where it falls down IMO due to patchy coverage and out of date information (and it's clunky website and app). That's the bit where the STW community could be of use.
@ solarider, Singletrack have a YT channel with nearly 700 videos, it’s not difficult to search for this instead of incessantly banging away the same points. You make interesting observations but after a while the helpfulness erodes and it’s depressing to read.
Oops there I go again. Sorry. (Steps away from the phone).
And those newsagents and bookshops full of stock?
Book sales are actually doing rather well.....
There seems to be a significant number of visitors to the site that are not subscribers. Why is that?
That's always going to be the case, for every person who is keen enough to subscribe, there will be 10-100x more for whom it's just passing interest etc.
No Industry achieves 100% conversion rate into sales, especially websites.
Hey @solarider if you wouldn't mind, would you please stop now?
There's a whole bunch of the staff here simply deciding for their own mental health sake not to read anymore of what you have to say. I think you've possibly said all that is helpful now and you are starting to cause upset. At this stage of this thread I'm increasingly concerned for the wellbeing of the staff here - myself included.
Hope you understand
Book sales are indeed on the up, as is vinyl and band t shirts, very few artists make money from Spotify for example, maybe physical product (magazine and bum butter) is the future after all 🙂
Book sales are indeed on the up,
Almost always when I need to learn something new i buy a book rather than turning to YouTube or the web. Getting stuff down on paper seems to require a different thought process. Space isn't almost free so you need to consider your words and objective in a different way. For some stuff i buy the kindle version bit i still prefer paper where possible. Even with stories putting it down on paper seems to require an extra editing step which just makes things that much nicer.
I'd be happy if this thread were locked now. It seems to have morphed into something else and I would want the last message to the STW team to be that the whole STW effort is loved and appreciated. The number of people signing up or increasing their subs shows that