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Who do you think should pay for hosting/managing that forum?
We all should. I do. Although Mark doesn't describe it as such, but I pay £0 for a digital magazine and £25 a year for the forum.
I love this place and what it stands for.
I’ve just renewed my subscription but only because it happened automatically and apathy meant I didn’t stop it.
I think the mag and website need to work out what they’re about. There is no point in coming here for news or new products as PB and others do it much better and quicker. The same is true for product tests and reviews unless I want some of niche bike. The current issue of the mag has very little in it off interest to me. The fork review was fine. I enjoyed the article on riding in Aberdeen and that was about it. I’m not interested in the views on various subjects of the staff nor gravel bikes in anyway. That didn’t leave much left.
As for the shop the stuff your selling even with members discount is expensive. I wanted an Areopress but others are seeing it for 20% less than the members price and you get a bag of coffee. I would happily have bought it from you if your price was competitive.
@BruceWee as a sample of one I would if I thought it would help. Actually, I like the whole lack of tracking thing so I wouldn't need much convincing.
Something like £12 a year to use forum inc. classifieds (old style classifieds)
How do you hope to attract new members?
I think any forum has to be free to read (and ideally post) if it is to grow, but other aspects could be used as incentives for people to pay, for example:
IF the forum offered image hosting, I might be prepared to pay to be able to see full sized images in posts, rather than thumbnails (I'm aware of a few forums that work like this).
The ability to post clasified ads
Access to advanced search features
Absence of ads
Avatars!
Resources such as review archives
The forum remembering where you had read to in a thread and taking you straight back there when you open it again
Just a general 'good will' payment from those that appreciate it (I'm aware of several forums that operate in this manner, and let's be honest, it's what's already happening here with the addition of an unnecessary subscription to a mag they never read.)
I've been a member of quite a few forums, very few of which I thought were worth paying for, but it's not unheard of.
The forum is now the only aspect of this enterprise that is of any relevance to me - I read the print mags for about 5 years from 2013, but in the manner of all 'activity' publications, the content becomes repetetive (beginners guide to... how to ... carve gybe / waterstart jump / ride roots etc.). I don't think I've ever visited the homepage!
Anyway, the sentiment seems clear...
Who do you think should pay for hosting/managing that forum?
Might as well paraphrase weeksy since he put it so well.
We all should. I do. Although Mark doesn’t describe it as such, but I pay £0 for a paper magazine and £40 a year for the forum.
( apologies if it's not 40 quid. I don't actually know)
I subscribed after one of the previous appeals but I really believe no more appeals just put the price up.
The only other forum I use regularly is retrobike. The forum is much easier to use. Editing, adding images, listing stuff for sale, private messages etc.
We all should. I do. Although Mark doesn’t describe it as such, but I pay £0 for a digital magazine and £25 a year for the forum.
I love this place and what it stands for.
+1 pretty much same for me.
I think I'll start donating my STW magazines to whichever bike cafe/charity etc i can. Once they're read Ive little use for them and they're too stiff to use as wiping material.
That way they'll at least be read and seen over a wider group. Someone might read, like the content and look to join. Maybe,maybe not but I don't think theres any harm in it. And its more clutter out of my house.
the content becomes repetetive (beginners guide to… how to …
carve gybe / waterstart
jump / ride roots etc.).
Been there... 😀
I go to PinkBike for news/ current stuff and Wideopen/ NSMB/ EnduroMTB for other articles/ reviews etc.
Pinkbike/Outside is am absolute hot mess of a website away from the front page. I think either Google or Outside themselves have had to warn me twice in the last couple of years that my user/password has been compromised. The forum is full of (not to put too fine a point on it) ****ers. The only thing that's worth the time are Levy, Quinn and Kasimir, the rest is for children. Oh, and it's an order of magnitude larger operation that STW is. NSMB is hyper-local to the sea to shore, and is literally just reviews (dull shit that is really the lowest form of "journalism" Hell, if I can do, it's got to be), and has the same "buy us a coffee" ask that STW has and EnduroMTB have also recently got out the begging bowl in the same way that STW is doing now.
I doubt there's any part of the bike industry (including the written parts of it) has a magic wand to resolve the fact that the arse has fallen out of it recently
When it comes to bike magazines in general, are they all dying a death?
It would be interesting to see what the circulation figures are for some of the magazines, especially things like Singletrack where they aren't, I don't think, even available in normal newsagents etc.
I'd hazard a guess that the magazine industry as a whole is circling the drain and won't be around in it's current form for a great deal longer.
The forum is full of
This in itself shows why Forums like STW (And my own of course) need to remain and exist. Pinkbike forum should be EPIC... lots of knowledge, lots of content, people... but it's dire... Partly because of the teenage angst, but also the layout, formatting, process, uploading of pics and structure.
MTBR.com forum is sometimes a confusing place, but is a superb forum. The content is really informative, but i'd argue, this place here has greater depth of knowledge of many things.
mtbr.com is free though, with some sidebar adverts of course, which if i could turn off with a small cost, i probably would 🙂
I am a recent convert from free member to paying subscriber- I stopped reading the magazine years ago as I've never really found the writing style to my liking. I never look at the main site and now pay for the forum purely because it is a great resource for advice on bike maintenance, training and races/events. I also find the chat about pro cycling entertaining too and usually there are some long/involved threads about the big grand tours when they are on.
In many ways I'm not the target market as I gave up mountain biking years ago and only road ride and trail run now and I wouldn't say I'm particularly interested in gravel riding or bike packing.
But, as much as I love cycling I sometimes wonder how much can really be said about it as an activity outside of the competitive part of it. I buy a bike on average about once every 8 years so bike reviews are meaningless to me for 7.9 years out of every 8. Routes in the UK are well established- especially mountain bike routes that can legally be published...even I could advise someone on a classic peak district route and I've not ridden a bridleway since 2009. Like most people I know who are into cycling I don't go on multiple cycling holidays a year to far flung sunny countries following a local guide around, so articles about riding in Andorra or Croatia or something are of limited value really.
I still buy the paper copy of Cycling Weekly as I can catch up on some pro cycling news and also I find the domestic competitive news interesting- the focus in general seems to be on things that are more local and relatable to me, local TTs, Hill Climbs and CX racing, club runs, events that I might actually enter, rides I might actually do.
I might be totally wrong here but is it fair to say most people own one bike (maybe 2) and rarely exchange it, ride local to them and perhaps go abroad on a cycling specific holiday maybe occasionally but probably rarely? The sportives or events the enter most likely will be within a 3 hour drive of where they live?
I'm not sure if STW is guilty of any of the above as I haven't read it in years but most cycling media seems to be like that to me and it is fairly predictable/tired after a while. I always thought Cyclist magazine offered some different/insightful articles compared to the rest but there's still only so many "Big Ride in Sunny and Faraway Country [x]" that can hold my interest and it is inevitably really expensive now.
I might be totally wrong here but is it fair to say most people own one bike (maybe 2) and rarely exchange it, ride local to them and perhaps go abroad on a cycling specific holiday maybe occasionally but probably rarely? The sportives or events the enter most likely will be within a 3 hour drive of where they live?
Ummmmm 😀
Yeah I know, wrong place to pose that question probably 😂
Ummmmm 😀
Especially on the number of bikes bit, but the rest is partly true. I do find some of the route articles interesting but it does depend on the writer. I rarely find bike reviews interesting in any mag but there is lots of other stuff going around.
Yeah I know, wrong place to pose that question probably
I do get your point though. A lot of riding of 'us' is not in far flung places.. but then again, magazines are a bit of 'social dreaming' aren't they ? The trip to Peru you'll never do, the bikepacking in the Andes that are beyond our reach..
Rather than, a trip round Ladybower reservoir on a gravel bike... which lets face it, won't be that exciting to read.
we're all different though of course, i'd love to read about (if i read magazines) how Charlie went to BPW and nailed a red, ate a burger and experienced Merthyr on a Friday night... but i doubt many others would. In the same way, an article about someone roughing it in the Cairngorns, well, it doesn't do a lot for me.
From an exceptionally biased perspective, a racing series with a youngster racing Fort William, now that i'd read 😉 😉
I subscribed to the paper magazine because I saw there was an article about Nesbyen, a place I'd spent a couple of weeks in a year ago.
Honestly, I was underwhelmed. I'm not sure what I was looking for, but it wasn't what I read in the article. I saw what it was trying to do, I think. It was trying to avoid being a dry 'review' of another riding destination by running a thread through it about 'hidden folk' and Norse mythology.
imo, it completely missed the mark. It was a bit about the riding (honestly, how many ways are there to write about riding over rocks and dirt) and the rest seemed to be jarring talk about trolls and fairies.
Contrast that with Hannah's visit to Repack. We get to meet the characters and get an idea of the local scene. Admittedly, we're talking about well known names from the history of mountain biking but when I read about trips to other countries, that's what I want to read about. I want to know what the local riding culture is like, who the notable characters are and why they're notable, and just get a feel for the general vibe of the place.
I think the Nesbyen story was a missed opportunity to talk to locals and find out more about the place. Instead it ended up feeleing like a Lonely Planet writer trying to flex his creative muscles and put some colour into the local history section.
Anyway, part of the reason I like to read about far flung places is not some much to find out what the riding is like but what the local scene is like.
Is it possible that the audience for the mag and the audience for the forum are actually pretty different?
At the risk of rambling and not adding anything: I very rarely buy bikes (never new ones) and have no interest in racing etc. I think I might have subscribed to the mag one year ages ago but let it drop. I would probably pay for forum membership now that I know it's useful...but I tend to drift in and out to avoid getting bogged down in forum politics
so articles about riding in Andorra or Croatia or something are of limited value really
Tbf travel writing (like food reviewing, mayne even top end gear reviewing) isn't solely to be "practical". Sometimes it is escapism. There are plenty of people that read supercar mags but will never buy a new car, who read Jay Rayner but don't go to 5* restaurants etc.
Haven’t read the entire thread and although Ive had a monthly sub for quite a few years, I’m currently a freeloading free member, but I think you really need to sort the stability of this forum. It’s a good forum one the whole, and searching for random non bike related stuff on google, posts quite often come up from here and other large sites like pistonheads and mumsnet.
The difference is those sites don’t repeatedly crash. This one has for years now. The way I personally use it is: first crash, ok let it reload and carry on. Second crash, fark this I’m off, and I’ll go and look at something else. That point is often reached after one or two minutes. I’m on an up to date iPhone.
I think if you sorted that out, you’d find yourself with a lot more traffic which in turn has to only be good for ad revenue. Just my freeloading 2p.
YouTube is much harder to make money from than people think. The subscriber numbers being talked about here wouldn’t solve the problem
https://influencermarketinghub.com/youtube-money-calculator/
YouTube is much harder to make money from than people think. The subscriber numbers being talked about here wouldn’t solve the problem
Well that depends if you focus on YT articles and subscribers instead of other content like magazine articles. I'm sure there's a way to get the required numbers but i don't understand people who sit and watch TouTube stuff myself. I occasionally watch a tech article, like last week was a Hope Tech3 bleed technique... but i rarely watch 'articles' in most other contexts.
They are of course missing an open goal on the marketing front...
...they need to do a [b]Happy Valley Special[/b]! Get Sarah Lancashire owt in them there hills and spam social media with it! Do a cycle route of popular murder spots. Boom - millions of hits! They've probably even filmed in Tod! 🤣
but i don’t understand people who sit and watch TouTube stuff myself. I occasionally watch a tech article, like last week was a Hope Tech3 bleed technique… but i rarely watch ‘articles’ in most other contexts.
But I suspect, looking at the numbers, you are in the minority. Lots of channels out there getting millions of views, even mediocre ones getting tens of thousands. I personally much prefer it to reading an article. On the travel stuff mentioned above, I'd much rather watch someone riding at a destination than read about it, but I'm sure there is a place for both. There is already a lot of great content on youTube but I can see STW shaped hole for their kind of journalism.
we’re all different though of course, i’d love to read about (if i read magazines) how Charlie went to BPW and nailed a red, ate a burger and experienced Merthyr on a Friday night… but i doubt many others would. In the same way, an article about someone roughing it in the Cairngorns, well, it doesn’t do a lot for me.
I won't bother cut n paste reversing the two examples in the text above, but basically this. We all have slightly ( very?) different MTB interests and its physically impossible for a finite set of writers to appeal to all of them all of the time. Loads of the STW articles are good, but the reality is that they're only of interest to a subset of the pop.
Hannah ( or someone) keeps asking what we DO want to hear about. This is a commendable approach but unfortunately doomed to failure because there is no " collective we" when it comes to the STW readership.
Some people, quite rightly, want to read about amazing adventures in the Cairngorms.
Some people, again quite rightly, want to read about amazing techie gnarr in the lake district*
Some people, believe it or not, want to read about which riders are riding for which teams and who is winning what races. **
Some people apparently want to read about ebikes costing over a month's salary.
Some complete weirdos even want to read general articles about bike maintenance which isn't directly related to the exact job they're doing at that point in time ( no I don't believe it either 🙂 )
Some people even want to hear about gravel routes in the south of England ( shudders)
The point is that STW can no more fill the magazine with what interests everyone than they could roll a pair of dice and get a double six and a double five and a double.... every single throw.
But the forum contains all that info, and with the power of Google we can find the bit we're interested in.
* and of course the other issue is that you're not allowed to write articles about FBWs 😉
** W08 excepted of course. Even I want to hear those results.
Thinking a bit further, IF the magazine had an amazing search facility, where I could find the article in issues 35 about slogging around Glen Tilt in a blizzard, and Weeksy could find the review in issue78 of the ginormous Park Tools tool chest, THAT would be something. There must be shitloads of stuff in the back catalog that would interest people if they can find it.
Print on general is dying off but there is still a market for the high quality specialist stuff that doesn't go down the route of reviews, race results etc. Basically if what you print goes out of date quickly then you're unlikely to win against online. The obvious comparison for here is Cranked, lovely mag with no online stuff at all and is doing well. Doubt there's room for two mags like that though but it may be something to look in to.
Although Mark doesn’t describe it as such, but I pay £0 for a paper magazine and £40 a year for the forum.
Sums up why I pay too, just the digital version though as I don't want to have them print a mag that's just going to be left on a shelf or binned. Just from recommendations on stuff by other members I have saved the cost of membership every year, especially when it's put me off buying something that isn't up to the job. Although the Tamiya thread has cost me well over £1k over the last year or so, plus the Lego one.
Some YouTube info for you.
This
1.2 million views. Listed on IMDB and gets a massive review score. It's taken a few years to get to that number of course. But total earned revenue from Youtube = £3585.25
So about the equivalent of 100 full members over the same time period. So considering that documentary was made in 2016 a rate of 16 new members a year. That doc had a budget of £30k IIRC which we covered via sponsors. That revenue above is our profit.
For the record the calculated CPM rate of £2.92 (1000 viewers = £2.92 in revenue) is pretty typical for a sports niche. The highest paying niche on YT is finance with a typical CPM in excess of £25.
The obvious comparison for here is Cranked, lovely mag with no online stuff at all and is doing well.
Is it? Bet they are struggling too.
do a Happy Valley Special! Get Sarah Lancashire owt in them there hills and spam social media with it! Do a cycle route of popular murder spots. Boom – millions of hits! They’ve probably even filmed in Tod!
Haha, you sir have the instinct of a journalist. Bet you could sell a feature on that to the Guardian or similar. If they've not done it already.
Of course, the problem then is what do you do the next month?
1.2m views is a tiny number. For comparison BCPOV which I see mentioned here as one people enjoy had 835,000 in the last 30 days. https://socialblade.com/youtube/c/bcpov
Compared to 30,000 for this mag’s channel https://socialblade.com/youtube/c/singletrack
YouTube is all about frequency and building a subscriber base rather than 1 off films
Exactly right.
I posted that to offer up an example of the scale required to earn money on the biggest video platform on the planet.
YouTube may have potential but have a listen to the latest Pinkbike podcast for an insight into how tricky it is. They are talking to Paul the Punter who built up a pretty good channel then jacked it in to play golf!
Cranked has 1 employee
and he does a damn good job. But you don’t just produce a paper mag, you have much more than that
Cranked is indeed excellent
Me (back from the dead)!
Mark - I really think you are missing the point, and if I might be so bold you are over estimating the quality and appeal of your content. As a bike geek, I loved this film (but only once - it's not on my repeat play list). Long, high production value (and expensive) pieces like this one which are published rarely and only really marketed to the STW loyalists (there's a preaching to the converted theme here!) are very different to the short, topical, bite-sized YT articles published on a daily basis that drive traffic, interest and just the sense of community that you are trying to nurture. Just look at the average viewer numbers for the 10 minute max popcorn content from other YT producers. Far higher than your masterpiece.
So you published a film lasting almost 70 minutes (which in modern terms is a fair commitment of time given that Tik Tok have established that the average millennial's attention span is 3.8 seconds) 7 years ago and on that basis you have ruled out YT (a channel which your competitors use on a daily basis to drive content, traffic and revenue)? That's like saying I tried piano once and I couldn't play Mozart's piano concerto within the hour so clearly piano is a rubbish instrument.
At the risk of looking like I have swallowed a management consultancy thesaurus, you need to build a multi-channel ecosystem. Not purely for the revenue (something I thought you were trying to free yourself from anyway), but because you need more people to be interested in what you do. You need to create a virtuous circle of multi-channel content where you maximise your audience reach. Daily, short burst relevant content mixed with longer editorial style published across VOD, print, social and web. YT might not be a revenue generator, but it's a great platform to get the message out there as a means of driving awareness and traffic to STW. You are honestly deluded if you think it will drive more magazine subscriptions though. How many people need to tell you the same thing?!
I fear that there is a consensus of feedback from just the people that you are trying to target and a consensus of defensiveness from your team. If your model is working so well, why have you extended the begging bowl for the second time?
Keep doing the same thing in the same way and see how that works for you. Me personally, I would chose to take onboard the feedback, evolve and thrive. Whether you have the team, the content or the attitude to do that is the big question.
There has been quite a bit of chat about whether your content is broad enough to reach anything more than 6k people, many of which it appears only subscribe out of kindness to pay for the forum and wouldn't really miss the mag if it wasn't here tomorrow.
I appreciate a lot of this thread has burst your bubble with regards to what you think your baby is all about, but burst it you must. Listen to what people are taking the time to tell you about their usage and needs and get yourself off the 20th century coolaid. You can argue all day that they are all wrong, but your competitors clearly don't think so, and the readers that you are trying to attract don't either based on this thread.
Being analogue in a digital world hasn't worked for too many of your peer group, but maybe you know something that nobody else does.......the general consensus of posts in this thread tell me you might be a little out of touch with your audience.
I'm keeping away generally from this thread but obviously keeping a bit of an eye on it. But I think it's worth a little clarification that the existence of Singletrack is not under threat. Singletrack will certainly be here in 12 months and beyond. That's pretty much a given. I have a view on where it will be and what it will look like a year from now and the direction of travel. But we aren't going bust. I guess the 'struggle' right now is to evolve and sustain or retreat and run a much smaller operation. Either way, Singletrack has a future.
Solarider isn't in any danger of being banned. We don't censor our critics (rules abided, of course). His views certainly look well considered and I have no doubts whatsoever that they are. Clearly they come from a genuine place of concern and a desire to help. My view from here is unfortunately a lot clearer on the realities of day to day operations and what works, what can work and what is realistic with the resources we have. Unfortunately as much as I can nod in agreement with the desires and aspirations that many have for Singletrack the actual reality of what can be done is often very different. That said, we have a plan which we hope will work - it requires your help - which is why we asked.
p.s the old classifieds is never coming back. The new one is busier than the old and generates actual revenue (Not a lot, yet) but several orders of magnitude more than the old. I get that you miss the old one, but it didn't work for Singletrack and had to change. What you have now is not the best, but then that's in the plan too. Unfortunately with such limited resources we can't make the instant fixes that you all clearly wish we could - and many of you wonder why the F... we don't. It takes time and money to run Singletrack and well, we'll either succeed or we'll run out of one, the other or both.
I guess I should also clarify that magazine no longer equals paper. A magazine is the entire content output of the editorial and marketing team. Some of it is published on paper, which still appears to be quite popular. But if we decided to stop printing on dead trees there would still be a magazine. It's a case of definitions I guess. Singletrack magazine has a solid looking future whether or not we publish any of it on paper.
[ classifieds, forum]...
What you have now is not the best, but then that’s in the plan too. Unfortunately with such limited resources we can’t make the instant fixes that you all clearly wish we could – and many of you wonder why the F… we don’t. It takes time and money to run
I think this is the point that I'm trying to make, and I think one or two others as well.
Stop wasting the money I give you for the forum on writing articles that I have no interest in. Spend it on fixing the forum.
the existence of Singletrack is not under threat
So stop giving that impression! It might not be your intent, but it sure is the end result. Give the impression that what you are doing is working, life is good and this is a great place to be (because it is, and thanks for not banning me!!!!)
the general consensus of posts in this thread tell me you might be a little out of touch with your audience.
My inbox says otherwise I'm afraid. There is certainly strong feeling here and yours is one of the strongest. But I still do not agree with your view. I realise i'm in a privileged position of being able to see the full picture and I have a lot of empathy for your opinions - but it's not the reality of the modern publishing sphere. I'm not a dinosaur hanging on to the past by any stretch of the imagination - I'd never generally put this here as it makes me sound completely lost up my own arse but I am booked to speak at 2 national publishing conferences on a number of the topics mentioned in this thread. I've spoken at quite a few others in the past too. I have form in this field and 22 years of experience (Nope, that does make me sound like a stuck up arse). In that time many of our competitors have fallen away, but we remain and as I just said above, Singletrack has a pretty safe future. The question is what shape that will take - My one singular goal is that future contains all the staff we currently have - that's it!
Maybe you and others are right. Maybe I should just downsize and make some staff cuts (I'm buggered as to where I'd make those cuts mind without making things a lot worse) - but well. I'm just not going to do that. That could bring things crashing down. That's a risk. But I'm taking that risk. I'm happy with the risk I'm taking and yes, it's a hill I'm prepared to die on.
You may well get a lot of what you have said we should do in the future - like I said a lot of what you have said appears on the surface to be obvious and easily done. I know what is actually easy to do and is possible. I know what is a sound revenue stream to expend the limited resources we have on chasing. I guess we are going to have to see what happens over the coming months and years. I'm pretty sure if I screw this plan up there will be plenty of people lining up to tell me I was wrong and they were right all along. If we are still here in a year and the changes we want to happen happen, I don't suppose we'll hear much though.
Stop wasting the money I give you for the forum on writing articles that I have no interest in. Spend it on fixing the forum.
That's really not how it works. It really isn't. I could give you all the toys you want and make the forum run like a buttery smooth butter knife covered in butter. But that is not the best use of the resources we have and won't get is the return we need in the time we need it. You personally want a forum only membership - if we did that we'd actually lose money.
Well, I for one hope we are all here to see you proven right.
Looking forward to the journey Mark. As an (over) enthusiastic armchair observer, I guess I just want to see STW thrive, and listening to your customers (the ones you want to attract as well as the loyalists filling your inbox) is a pretty good business model.
But back to the original point, I would heartily advise you to put the begging bowl away and do what you need to do to build confidence and loyalty amongst just the people that you want to convert to fee paying loyalists.
So stop giving that impression! It might not be your intent, but it sure is the end result. Give the impression that what you are doing is working, life is good and this is a great place to be (because it is, and thanks for not banning me!!!!)
No. That would be a lie and I'm not going to lie to you. Things are not great. The staffing levels here are under threat. That threat manifest itself as job losses. That's not Singletrack under threat - that's jobs. The way for me to protect those jobs is through appealing to you and being honest about that situation. If I said nothing, failed to turn it around and lost staff and then had a bunch of people say, 'But why didn't you say something?" then I'd probably have a really tough time sleeping. So.. here we are. We need more members in order to have the resources we need to make the changes that you want. Unfortunately, without the sudden appearance of a shed load of cash, that's the only viable order of things.
We need more members in order to have the resources we need to make the changes that you want.
You need to do things differently to get more members, not ask your existing members for more. You need to understand why 130k people don't subscribe, not why 6k do (and bear in mind some of the 6k have already told you they only subscribe to maintain the forum, despite your belief that the definition of 'the mag' includes the other online content that they have told you they don't read). If there is a summary of 4 days and 203 posts, surely that is it......
I just looked up 'Catch 22' in the dictionary and this thread came up in the definition list. I really feel for you and genuinely (with absolutely no hint of sarcasm at all, please believe that) wish you the very best of luck with the future direction.
@Mark Any thoughts on encouraging members (and non-members if it comes to that) to use Brave browser to access the site given the collapse in ad revenue?
Like I said earlier, I see that STW is a Verified Creator on the Brave browser so I guess you are at least aware of it?
@solarider I agree with your points an views whole heartedly along with your sentiment and best wishes to Mark and the team. But as Einstein said repeating the same thing and expecting a different outcome is the path to insanity
You need to do things differently to get more members, not ask your existing members for more.
Do you really think that the only thing the Singletrack staff are doing is posting a thread on the forum and sitting back and waiting for the answer? Posters/readers of the forum are an important part of Singletrack. As are subscribers/readers of the magazine. Mark & Co won't only be relying solely on either as they plan for the future. And planning for the future and adapting to it is something they have a proven record of doing well, when others have failed.
Do you really think that the only thing the Singletrack staff are doing is posting a thread on the forum and sitting back and waiting for the answer?
I was referring to the financial ask. Mark never asked for a business review, but I guess that's what he inadvertently got. I appreciate that the whole of this thread has been an unsolicited response to a request for cash which has been met with a load of well intentioned but totally unsolicited arm chair business advice.
It has been largely respectful and given and received in good humour and spirits, which is nice.
something they have a proven record of doing well, when others have failed.
Don't be so sure that because it has worked in the past however, that it is still going to work going forward. Which leads nicely to.....
But as Einstein said repeating the same thing and expecting a different outcome is the path to insanity
Ha. Do you mean me or Mark? Either way, fair comment. I am at risk of repeating myself even more. I am leaving my thoughts here (no, really this time!).
You need to understand why 130k people don’t subscribe, not why 6k do. If there is a summary of 4 days and 203 posts, surely that is it……
With the add on question of.... "why do only 130k out of 20,000,000" come here... ?
If not worldwide... why is the site very very UK biased... not in terms of content, but in terms of membership. You can see it by 4am posts... this place is dead... whereas MTBR.com is in it's peak at 4am Uk.... Obviously full of American time people.. So why doesn't STW get more 'foreign' members... And how can it attract them.
Could it be in terms of 'payment options' that the non-UK residents simply don't have the ability to pay/create and how do STW Towers resolve that ?
I appreciate that the whole of this thread has been an unsolicited response to a request for cash
You might be forgetting the whole history of Singletrack... many on the forum would see themselves as "supporters" not just "users" of Singletrack. Asking for a bit more support is fine with me. I'd better go and check out what's in the shop now I've said that...
to me he just comes across as someone who wants an argument
I’ve followed the whole thread. You appear to be the one jumping in after six pints with fists flailing. Maybe go back to those argument threads you refer to
My one singular goal is that future contains all the staff we currently have – that’s it!
For which you have to be applauded. I see too many businesses that seem to exist for the sake of the business and the people are just a resource to be consumed or not. Yes you have to be realistic and make cuts at the right time but having the continuation of the staff as part of the goals (or even the one singular goal) rocks. Wish more people did more that just pay lipservice to this
@Mark Any thoughts on encouraging members (and non-members if it comes to that) to use Brave browser to access the site given the collapse in ad revenue?
Brave is good. yeah. We've seen some revenue that way. Not a lot and it still isn't anywhere near as much as we would get from programmatic but I have to be honest and say that if you did decide to block ads that you did it by switching to Brave rather than by installing an ad blocker.
Crikey! I think I just fell foul of the moderators on that one 🙂
Daz. I think that there is more confrontational, argumentative and insulting language in your single post than I have included in all of my contributions to this thread.
Don’t confuse a drunken pub car park argument with an intelligent debate. It’s what separates a civilised society from an uncivilised one.
On one thing we agree - this is a serious matter. I don’t think that I have diminished it’s importance in any way, but whilst I appreciate your passion, your uncivil tone does diminish whatever point lies beneath.
...coffee and a tea towel ordered. Any other shop recommendations? Lots of out of stock items I like the look of but obviously missed when they were fresh.
I’ve followed the whole thread.
Me too, and that was my first post on it. Trouble is when you see people on here (who aren't even a f***** member!) questioning the contribution of people who work here and even calling for their jobs to be cut, then people like me who know those people and know and appreciate what they do are going to respond. 🤷♂️
Don’t confuse a drunken pub car park argument with an intelligent debate.
Repeating the same point again and again, however many words you use, is not intelligent debate. You made your point, Mark responded and yet you're still banging on and on.
I appreciate I may be pissing in the wind with this staff first thing but that's probably down to my socialist upbringing 🙂
There's a thing called social capitalism. Profit is required in order to sustain the business - it's just that I see the staff of a business as something more than a resource - they ARE the business and the the first job of a business should be to provide solid employment. What's left after that can be the spoils. Personally I'm more proud of the fact I've helped create and run something that has employed people. I like employing people. But like I said, I could very well be pissing in the wind as that's not how business usually work 🙂
Crikey! I think I just fell foul of the moderators on that one 🙂
I use Brave anyway (as well as being a member) and I found I can set the rewards to give STW extra each month (otherwise YouTube would end up getting the money and I don't reckon they need any more).
I'd imagine most people aren't aware of it and just use a normal ad-blocker as has been mentioned a few times on this thread but I guess people would rather send something to STW, especially if it was 'money' they were never even aware existed.
But yes, I can see the dilemma given the ban on ad-blockers to then tell users to use an ad-blocking browser 🙂
who aren’t even a f***** member!
Here we go again. Local forums for local people!
I have explained why I am a lapsed member elsewhere in this thread. I have also suggested that STW might explore revenue opportunities from the forum. Until they do, I am positively encouraged to use the forum for free. I have also made it clear that I have not at any point called for jobs to be culled. On the contrary, making STW thrive would safeguard those jobs.
If you want to attract more users to your special club Daz (and make no mistake that is exactly what you need), then perhaps be a little more welcoming and open to a diverse range of opinions. I appreciate that emotions are high, but there are ways of making a point…
Maybe you and others are right. Maybe I should just downsize and make some staff cuts
Has anyone actually said that? There have certainly been questions as to what the staff do to generate the content witnessed (which I could be taken badly) but nobody has actually said anyone should lose their job.
Trouble is when you see people on here (who aren’t even a f***** member!)
This is exactly what's wrong with this place. 6 pages in and a sensible, respectful debate right until you waded in, have a word with yourself.
Any other shop recommendations?
The cherry pom pom hat and the club ride shirts are some of my favourite pieces of clothing, although the brighter colours on the shirts are missing now :(. Unfortunately the customs charges are making it much tougher for me to order that stuff now unless i know I'm going to be back in the UK for a bit
Has anyone actually said that?
I did - 1st comment - straight in with the dagger! 😬🗡
Cheers leffeboy... ride shirts was where I started, they look great, but all out of stock is average man sizes. Also fancy some pedal covers for throwing bikes in the car.
But yes, I can see the dilemma given the ban on ad-blockers to then tell users to use an ad-blocking browser 🙂
It's a pickle 🙂
Ultimate solution is to get to a point where we don't need the ads. Programmatic ones at least. That's doable but (broken record again - sorry) We need your help*... blah blah 🙂
*Not you personally Bruce. You already do 🙂
How does this Brave browser thing work then?
Could we be logged in properly on Chrome for example but do a bit of STW browsing on Brave to generate revenue for them?
I did – 1st comment – straight in with the dagger! 😬🗡
So you did! I think the first and only time then.
Ultimate solution is to get to a point where we don’t need the ads. Programmatic ones at least. That’s doable but (broken record again – sorry) We need your help… blah blah 🙂
Without wanting to spin my own broken record we've offered solutions, I'd pay to remove ads and upload pics. Make it cheap enough and folk will pay. Of course I'm a sample of one but there have already been a few people who have said similar things.
@chakaping RE:Cranked
Is it? Bet they are struggling too.
Seb has had to put prices up a few times, he did canvass subscribers beforehand and most were happy to go ahead. Not sure I'd say he was struggling though.
Without wanting to spin my own broken record we’ve offered solutions, I’d pay to remove ads
Crikey. I've done a pretty exhaustive job of explaining things but I guess it's not enough. If we offered a cheaper forum only membership, we would (at least initially) lose a lot of money as the bulk of those new memberships would be fed by the downgrading of existing members. At least at first. The problem as I've explained at length, is we don't have the resources to be able to do that. In other, clearer, words. we can't afford to do that right now. No matter how much you wish it to be different, it would cause Singletrack the business a sudden shock that I assess would not be able to survive without something else being sacrificed. So, due to the risk it would cause to job security here, I'm ruling it out.
Members first I'm afraid. It's our best option. If you believe me then maybe you'll decide to join us and help get that journey started?
How does this Brave browser thing work then?
Assuming there's no objections, I could put a few 'how to' screenshots up on this thread later?
Downloading and opening Brave is straightforward, anyway. Then it's just a question of setting up the rewards. Which is also fairly straightforward, tbh.
I’ve done a pretty exhaustive job of explaining things
No. No you haven’t. You have said it isn’t an option but not why and it’s actually the first time you have expressed your concern that:
the bulk of those new memberships would be fed by the downgrading of existing members
You are effectively finally admitting that the forum is your most valuable (and untapped) asset and that some/many/most (you decide) people pay their subscription out of loyalty and community more than because of the value that they place on ‘the mag’ (your content in its broadest sense). I am not looking to diminish the mag at all here.
Your social capitalism experiment is fine until you have to extend the begging plate. You have created something amazing and (a few members excepted!) a wonderful community. It just needs a little more on the top line and/or a more appropriate cost base. It’s all within your gift.
Oh FFS. Really?
That's so not what I'm 'admitting'. Please. You said you'd said enough. It's getting awkward now and it looks like you just went 'Aha! Gotcha!'.. Did you? Did you just jump up and say 'Gotcha?'.. I bet you did 🙂
Nope. Good luck Mark.
When the owner is the chief troll, I am afraid it isn’t a community I want to be a part of any more.
Enjoy the echo chamber chaps. Let me know how it goes in there passing around the begging bowl.
Without wanting to spin my own broken record we’ve offered solutions, I’d pay to remove ads and upload pics. Make it cheap enough and folk will pay.
As has been pointed out, on this thread (I think) and other threads, the digital membership equates to 50p per week. How cheap would it have to be to encourage existing free members to pay for a forum-only membership?
I prefer to see it (and perhaps STW could market it as such), that a digital membership gives you ad-free forum access plus access to the digital version of the magazine as a 'free bonus'.
and that some/many/most (you decide) people pay their subscription out of loyalty and community
And some don't and still see fit to offer ill-considered advice. 🙄
I've bought bum butter and a hat, good luck 👍
Maybe give free memebers a month or 2 digi sub for free, to get them used to the site with no ads a few might join after that. Espescially if there were also better payment options.
Here we go again. Local forums for local people!
Or maybe just for people prepared to contribute something more than the benefit of their undoubted wisdom
You have created something amazing and (a few members excepted!) a wonderful community
Yet not one you're personally prepared to do anything to support.
I think you may have to reappraise your definition of a 'community'
Downloading and opening Brave is straightforward, anyway. Then it’s just a question of setting up the rewards. Which is also fairly straightforward, tbh.
I just tried but it looks like I've got to set up some special account to handle the rewards that mentions cards, Bitcoin, wallets and wants a bunch more info than I am comfortable giving without a lot more investigation
Maybe give free memebers a month or 2 digi sub for free, to get them used to the site with no ads a few might join after that. Espescially if there were also better payment options.
We did that for a year 3 years ago. Analysis showed it netted us no additional new members when run as an A/B test against the hard paywall.
Things may have changed in 3 years so maybe we'll revisit and try again. But it was a weird unexpected result for sure.
I just tried but it looks like I’ve got to set up some special account to handle the rewards that mentions cards, Bitcoin, wallets and wants a bunch m
Yes, therein lies the fundamental rub. Someone has to pay. If the ads aren't doing the paying then it falls to someone else. In the case of Brave that's you. It will require that you set up a payment of some small amount in your account. Then it allocates that money to publishers of websites depending a) which you visit and b) what proportion of your account you ascribe to each website.
The thing I don't get is at 2 quid for digital is still not cheap enough?
Now I get your saying I only want that 2 quid to pay for the forum but surely not everyone thinks that.
If mark said right forum only membership is a fiver a month and I can guarantee that your 5 quid will only go on web development would you pay?
It's like me asking for all my N.I to go on the NHS. Nice idea but impossible to do.
We all know the forums a bit glitchy but it's not exactly unusable as this thread proves.
I just tried but it looks like I’ve got to set up some special account to handle the rewards that mentions cards, Bitcoin, wallets and wants a bunch more info than I am comfortable giving without a lot more investigation
It shouldn't be necessary if you keep the BAT on your local computer. From there it can just be transferred to whatever sites you specify.
It's only if you want to keep the BAT for yourself you have to set up a wallet.
It will require that you set up a payment of some small amount in your account.
Unless I've completely misunderstood something I don't think that's correct.