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Following on from what daveylad said, is there any YouTube content? I've never seen any pop up on my feed and it's usually full of mountain bike content. Doesn't that pay ok when done well? I watch pinkbike and gmbn which is a bit like Top Gear on bikes. Yes it's repetitive and dumbed down but it is entertaining and it's enthusiastic mountain bikers talking enthusiastically about mountain bikes. It would be great to see a slightly more measured, thoughtful, and dare I say middle aged version from stw. It's most of the way there with the podcasts anyway. And if it already exists then your SEO needs some work 🙂
^ that. at the risk of this coming across as a pile on the home page has at least three articles on it from 2021. added to which i take at most a passing interest in cx and snowsports. i come here for bikes and arguing. 🙂
if you hate the ads too how about trying the guardian model mentioned above for a month or two and see how that gets free members or visitors to convert to see if it pays off? if the ad revenue is falling off as you say it shouldn't cost too much to run the test?
i come here for bikes and arguing.
That one sentence sums it up so brilliantly!!!
So not for how to make a coffee in the wilderness? Not for a snarky article about matching your bike to a super car? Not for another snarky article about the latest Rapha nonsense? Not for a 2 year old article about ski resorts having to close early because of Covid in 2021? Nobody wants to be reminded of Covid, least of all 2 years later about a resort on the Canadian West Coast!!!! When was the last time you looked at your own website with fresh unbiased eyes?
Take a look at your competitors. You have 2 year old articles about non related content. They have a steady stream of directly relatable bike articles where the oldest thing on the homepage is 2 days old. And it’s all free.
The model you aspire to will only work if you can provide something that more than 6k people want to pay for in the face of free content elsewhere.
Right, I’m off to fanny about on my bike.
Video reviews and trail/ride vids is a good idea. Available to paying members on here first then released on you tube a month later or something. Just be more enthusiastic and informative than Yorkshire sarcasm, and have fun doing it.
Then up the prices and charge monthly:
£5 p/m paper, £60 annual. £3 p/m digital, £36 annual. £1.50/£2 forum only (no content) until it's free on you tube a month later. #moremoniesbettercontent
I know that we only see what we want to see, but I read this but in Charlie's article
Our way forward as an MTB community is through you, our members.
At the moment, it seems like the only thing you want from the community is more money.
For me, the best thing about STW last year was TJs voyage. Other than the bike build, that all played out on the forum. I've always thought that there must be some way to create more synergy between the STW corporate presence and the forum content. At the moment it's basically one-way whereby front page posts get their own thread (often duplicating existing threads). I don't see forum content being promoted or captured.
Other, similar, threads have been made difficult by the limit on the number of links allowed (it's not beyond the wit of man to differentiate between photo links and others) and might also be something that would attract a readership.
These, more dynamic, types of topics aren't really suitable for magazine inclusion, more the blog format but, again, thats where I don't think STW make best use of the forum - and community - content.
Oh, and fix the search function as #1 priority. The forum could be an amazing repository that would bring folk back repeatedly but it's obscured by an inability to find anything in it.
Edit: two dodgy formatting errors FFS!
Well those 3 pages were a difficult read, I came here for some light relief and now am wondering if it will still be here in 6 months.
The other thing that happened was I kept seeing bloody adverts all over my screen, turns out my membership didn't auto renew due to the debit card being out of date. Fixed now, adverts are still here for a while until payment is cleared. How anyone uses the site with adverts I will never know.
@Solarider made a lot of interesting and informed points albeit quite hard to read when talking about something that has been part of my life for so long, must be quite hard to read as a parent of the baby. But something does have to change, even as an old skool print lover like me (I was actually a lithographic printer for 15yrs of my working life) I spend the majority of my time absorbing video content on Instagram or You Tube, and print is resigned to the bedroom. I hardly ever read the articles on here in digital form and vists to the site are either for the forum or for the classifieds. Something is not working on the digital content side to draw me in.
I wish you luck STW and hope like hell you are around for us in the years to come.
Another long time stw’er (since issue 1). Think @Solarider has made a lot of very valid points.
Long story short, I’m here for the forum / STW community, the other content and magazine isn’t imo up to scratch. Kind of lost as to where STW pitches itself? Pinkbike have the racing / event side done really well, bikepacking have really good longer format soulful content and is a great example of a well designed engaging web page, Cranked do the niche print better than STW (sorry, but there it is), YouTube channels and forums do bike and equipment reviews much better (a bit of blurb, spec list and generic ride report really does not cut it).
sorry if this is hard to swallow, but as a long time supporter of STW I really don’t see enough beyond the forum to make me want to spend anymore of my hard earned £
^ this, unfortunately
That's digital first - I come for the forum, and have paid on that basis - knowing I'm going to get the Mag.
Never having had access to much of the front page of the website I've not been visiting, so on the strength of the forum alone - and the ask for help - I've made a purchase. Not one that's going to land me in hock either - at the UK minimum wage that's 4.7 hours of work for a year's subscription - without discount.
For the ads, I'm so glad to have seen them go. It's game-changing - so you guys should only browse the forums with them on - there's formatting possibilities of where to stick them on the page. But I generally browse on PC, not so much on mobile - but I guess you know where your people are coming in from. (And you could have cookies that last, I hate having to re-sign in every month or so - your site is the only one that I do that on - most of my other sites cache my credentials and maybe make me resign in every six or twelve months at best).
Other than that, love that this place is community driven - so I don't personally have a problem with you asking the community. It's an ask for help but @solarider is correct in that it can feel like begging and it did go through my mind "will I get 12 months of of my sub back" - but then, I'm wealthy enough not to care if I lose that much cash. Others may not. It's your decision - but for me I'm OK with it.
Anyway - I wish you all the best in the transition to your new model and hope there's another 20 years of STW to browse 🙂
Hi @Mark. Quote from this morning's email:
Well, to tell the truth the survey already existed - it was by chance the results also shed clear light on the number of our members who just visit for the forum and nothing else.
The results? It turns out that 4.3% of our members are not at all interested in the magazine content. So not such a demand after all. It’s not a surprising result to be honest.
Could you shed a bit of light on where the 4.3% number came from?
It sounded like you were going to do a survey but didn't, as you think you had the data already. I'm intrigued, and a bit worried, what the data is that led you to this conclusion
Cheers
Why not keep the site & forum free to read but only members are able to post? If that upsets people and they don't want to pay and leave so be it, they obviously don't care enough about the place to keep it going.
And a monthly option to pay would be a good idea so those who can't afford the £25 hit in one go could pay monthly.
Also what about going on Readly? I don't know how they pay the magazine publishers but I use it a lot and most of the major bike magazines are on there.
they obviously don’t care enough about the place to keep it going
Or ‘the place’ doesn’t provide them with sufficient value vs the alternatives? Don’t confuse not caring with choosing where to spend one’s money when money is tight and choice is wide.
I am not bashing STW before the subscribers get all offended. I am however questioning whether enough people think that the current paid content is worth paying for. That’s just a hard objective question, not a subjective view of the site content or a personal dig at the creators. The answer sadly would appear not.
Mark - your problem is not your loyal subscribers. They love what you do and some are even prepared to overpay for it. Your problem is your 130k non subscribers and how you convert them. Preaching to the converted, or the converted behaving like a lynchmob every time a mudblood (non subscriber) dares to point out what you might do to entice more subscribers won’t work. I am not sure if it amusing or sad, but it is certainly telling that the most likes in this whole thread are attached to Ped’s post questioning the validity of my comments and my desire for STW to thrive based purely on the basis of me being a mudblood.
If I didn’t care about this place I guess I wouldn’t have been so animated in the discussion.
130k non subscribers
£1 a year instead of "free" for the privilege of accessing the site would be affordable to most, and even if half those those paid it you'd raise £65k.
I did think that, but Mark stated earlier:
A forum only membership is really not a solution.
Not sure if that is for technical or philosophical reasons.
I not offended one bit, I didn't pay for any membership for about a year then re-newed when Mark last asked for help. It's £25 not even half the price of a decent tyre. And I haven't seen the paid members acting like a lynch mob.
I'm a paid member and only look at the forum like many, I haven't read the mag in years but it must be frustrating for them to see free members post they get nothing from Singletrack but seem to be regular posters, so you must be getting something from it.
I do get something from it and here is exactly point!
I (in common with many people it would appear) get a lot of enjoyment from the community and the forum. STW choose to offer that for free.
I do not find the magazine itself to be relevant and I have not felt suitably compelled by the paid content to warrant the subscription fee.
As I stated earlier, if you are good at something, don’t do it for free. STW have an upside down model. The bit that they are good at and attracts the most users, they offer for free. The niche bit that is at best only appealing to a minority of loyalists and costs a lot to produce they charge for.
Can the problem not be any clearer than that?
Take the classifieds as a prime example. I used to buy and sell regularly on the old classifieds. It was free and brilliant. That was partly why I subscribed. The new classifieds are clunky, poorly browsed and whilst you can sell for free, the traffic is now so low that it isn’t worth bothering. A decent classified section that was as well produced as the old one would be worth paying for. I would also be prepared to pay for the community and forums. But since nobody compels me to, I don’t.
Well, there is one thing we can both agree on and that's the classifieds are rubbish compared to the old one.
Been sitting, watching and finally feel compelled to post.
A few things:
@solarider - completely agree with everything you've said. Especially regarding the member vs "freeloader" pile-on nonsense. It would do people well to remember us "freeloaders" were the ones helping fund the forum before the ad bubble burst.
@scotroutes - some forum content has made it to the front page but only usually when Hannah has someone to write a stern letter to. This isn't a bad thing and I applaud her efforts - it's certainly relevant and I'm sure those who have been involved are massively grateful. But as you say some other stuff is ripe for a long article, if the OP isn't a writer then why not an interview?
That brings me to my next point, the forum is probably your biggest asset so stop treating it like a liability. Put it this way, if it fell on it's arse tomorrow where would you be? [someone above] is right, you've been flinging sticking plasters over it for years just trying to make it "integrate" with the site. It doesn't and never has and you know what? It doesn't matter. At all. How much would an off the shelf Xenforo licence cost? I really don't know why you (Mark) are so attached to it considering how often you tell us you would walk away from it tomorrow if it was a choice between it and the mag. Look how defensive/snarky you got with Cougar the other day just for pointing out that whatever you were trying has never worked before and never will. Is that amount of stress and belligerence really worth it? Because from where I'm sitting it isn't, especially if it's impacting your health. Stop digging your heels in, wipe the slate and get working software in that you don't have to constantly tinker with, that's why you pay licences to devs. A forum only membership was proposed, how many folk do you think would pay £2 a year to get rid of ads and have a smooth experience? Now how much profit is that to fling into everything else?
Finally, and I will pre-warn that this may sound like I'm sticking the boot in but hear me out:
The magazine is nothing but a vanity project at this stage.
The magazine comes before everything else.
130k users, a fair proportion of which will be active and likely more than the number of "actual" (as in, interested in the content and not just paying for upkeep) subscribers.
The magazine comes before everything else.
Print costs are going up, people need paid, you need subscribers/clicks/whatever this year.
The magazine comes before everything else.
The trouble is, everything else is supporting the magazine or could be if you let it.
It's a vanity project, so what?
Celebrate it.
Cranked manages it but only publishes once a quarter.
DIG completely shut down print after 4130 fell apart but still publishes an annual yearbook.
You have a community and a dedicated following that neither of them do but people won't pay for a product they're not interested in, certainly not in the numbers you need. Now, if a sub let you upload pictures and perhaps gave you a limited number of premium ads per year that would be worth having. But with a front page of either recycled advertorials or frankly dubious (as in, I have no idea what the rest of the article is actually like but I'm not interested enough to progress beyond the free blurb) member only content I'm not convinced. So convince me.
You can make this work but carrying on the way you have certainly isn't the way to do it.
And, again, that wasn't supposed to feel like me putting the boot in. I'm genuinely trying to offer constructive criticism here.
Survey??
Was that the recent one asking "how do you prefer to read the magazine"? I didn't even see an option for "I don't".
Was that the recent one asking “how do you prefer to read the magazine”? I didn’t even see an option for “I don’t”.
I thought that. Hey if you already like and pay for the magazine what else would you like? Surely it would be much better to ask the 130k people who don't pay and don't read it what would make them do it.
Crikey.
first of all. The forum isn’t propping up the mag. The mag directly generates 65% of all or revenue and that’s been a steady part of the business for a long time. Also the magazine is not just print. The magazine is the entire content output. The forum generates a lot but it’s declining. Not traffic or how it is used but simply the ads pay less per impression and that trend will continue. It’s not us. It’s the web ad industry.
Secondly I appreciate everyone chipping in but I’ll say this again although I’m aware I’m repeating myself but Singletrack never was, is or will be just a forum. The forum is a part of Singletrack. an important part yes. But just one part. I appreciate you may disagree with that. For you it may well be all about the forum. But for others it’s not so important.
My final post on this tonight is a Thankyou to all of you who have joined us or topped up your membership in the last 24 hours. There’s an overwhelming number of you and we really appreciate it.
I’ve kept quiet on this and still will as such, because I know my honesty can be brutal at times.
However, what I will say is a very big thank you to those who have signed back up. I’ve been friends with the original guys since they started, spent holidays and birthdays with them, I’ve got drunk many times with them and even rode bikes too. Their passion and determination has kept their business going in tough times when others would have given up. Your subs will keep this place going. It’s a great platform with some genuinely kind, helpful and funny people. I’ve made lifetime friends with members off here and explored parts of the UK and Europe I may not have done otherwise. Cheers.
For anyone looking on here the promise of
“the site’s a bit crap because you’re not a member but it’ll be better when you pay a subscription”
doesn’t really strike me as a business model that’ll attract new members.
......Yeah. We hate the ads too.
How about turning the adds off every Friday afternoon for everyone. Then more people could see it working without and might be tempted to upgrade to membership.*
As whatsit above says " having a shitty experience but promising users it's better if they pay, may not be enticing"
* leaving aside that you've already d8scounted the option of having a " pay 2 argue" membership level....🤔
lots to digest above! I have been a paid up member for years, partly from habit, partly as I enjoy the mag.
in did cancel London Cycling Campaign member as it was being slightly irrelevant to me and their mag was becoming more and more disconnected with their campaign.
Clearly @Solarider has the bit between his teeth, but think it is hard to argue with the points made.
The ‘Pay a Little More’ thing does come across a little as begging and does not appear part of a long term plan and my default reaction to the repeated is why should I?
if you think your product is worth more then charge more for it.
The mag is pretty good and lately the breadth or articles appears to have improved, and thanks be no damn recipe this issue. The stds article was a little lazy and the related podcast was dire (in fact I stopped with STW podcast, very few have been worth the listen and most seem very formulaic/obvious/dull to listen to and lots of far better podcasts on offer for free or paid for- Shaun Keaveny CGR is well worth £4 a month).
does merch make a profit? Never bought from as no real desire for the items and even the timber bell which was of interest was cheaper to buy direct from the Uk rep…
I will send in some article ideas, have done so in the past but never got a response not even a ‘that’s a rubbish idea, but thanks for contacting us :-)!
first of all. The forum isn’t propping up the mag. The mag directly generates 65% of all or revenue and that’s been a steady part of the business for a long time. Also the magazine is not just print. The magazine is the entire content output. The forum generates a lot but it’s declining. Not traffic or how it is used but simply the ads pay less per impression and that trend will continue. It’s not us. It’s the web ad industry.
So ditch the ads and give the forum a selling point. As I said before, people would pay for premium features (I would) and it gives you another, more reliable and bigger income stream than ads.
Secondly I appreciate everyone chipping in but I’ll say this again although I’m aware I’m repeating myself but Singletrack never was, is or will be just a forum.
Nobody is proposing otherwise. But you have a huge asset that if you actually worked it could generate more revenue than your current model.
My 2p. I've been a fairly regular subscriber, but find that I rarely visit the website or the forum any more. Compared to other sites the forum functionality is poor. The classifieds, which used to be one of the best features is now practically empty. Even the mag has become slightly stale.
Sorry to be so negative - I respect and value all the hard work that goes in to the mag, but in times like these bold and innovative changes need to be made.
I’ve been subscribing for a long time, lapsed on the odd occasion but always came back. Met mates and my wife through here so it’s pretty dear to
me. Haven’t read the mag for a bit but holiday coming up so have downloaded a few issues.
The community is well worth supporting - just confirmed my subs renewal and added a bit on.
Thanks for keeping it going all these years and here’s to many more.
TS
Covering the increase in print costs based on what you've said appears to result in 50p/month increase on print subs, just do that. Put an inflation uplift on the others it's going to put print up by say £10 year and digital by £5.
I still think you then should have a forum membership that cuts ads, maybe allows a certain number of posts/month, or some limit that encourages take up. But the forum is your USP, you have to find a way to monetise that. I have a digital sub purely because it makes the site experience better and because at one point the cost saving in being able to drop to a lower data plan because of ads here chewing through data made it cost effective. I don't read the digital mag, I have no real interest in doing so, like others above I responded to the survey and there was no I don't option for how I read the mag/content so I think you are drawing false assumptions.
It's your business, your baby and we don't get to say how you take it forward but for many of us it's a community, which we'd be disappointed to lose. But that community is driven by the forum and it's members, not the mag/content. If nothing else try to mobilise that, take some of the more interesting/uplifting threads and do something with them to pull them forward into the content (TJs tour, Weeksy Jr's bid for world domination not the Brexit/politics stuff). That's where your 130k targets are based on thread engagement, either turn that into content to persuade them to sign up under the existing structure or restructure the options so they are 'incentivised' to take something out.
I'm not a daily user or particular fan of Facebook Instagram or Twitter but is there a way of integrating/linking them into the website and forum?
Would maybe help capture more users and revenue?
I've been a full member/subscriber for years and would help for Singletrack to disappear but it does seem that most folk on here are around my age (45) or older. Maybe Singletrack needs to get in some young blood.
My 2p
Remove the 50% discounts for new members, what do your regular auto-renewing (best) customers get?
Offer (discounted?) print/digital mags as the only route to a membership discount so that new customers can feel the quality, not read about its width; discount first year membership based on mags bought in that year and offer discounts for renewals
Make economic realities threads a more positive, "that's the reality" post without the "please help" element. Increase costs as you need to to make the business work. Why would strangers invest in something that's struggling?
I've raised this before and others have too:
Sort the forum out and make it a free-to-view, pay-to-contribute model, particularly if ads are a falling revenue. I'm always more inclined to pay for something that works
This all seems to be fairly consistent and actually fundamentally positive and supportive. There’s a lot of love for STW out there, even if some of it sounds like tough love. To summarise:
1) Go easy on the ‘life’s hard’ messaging. It’s not what people want or need to hear and whilst the disaster aid response might fix one hole in your leaking dam, it won’t fix the dam and it can be off putting to exactly the people that you are trying to convert to subscribe.
2) The magazine is key to the STW brand, so keep doing it but don’t expect a massive increase in subscribers. You have probably peaked in terms of the number of people who are interested in the current content and format. The key is to manage its production costs so that the revenue it generates is profitable. All you can really do is fine tune the costs through format and frequency and perhaps increase the cost of a subscription. Nobody is suggesting ditching the mag, and even if they were you are philosophically wedded to it being the essence of STW. Some would strongly disagree but it’s your business so you decide.
3) The forum is an untapped asset. It has a much bigger viewership and appeals to a broader range of casual users as well as card carrying loyalists. Whilst you might not like to admit it, and whilst it was never the intention, the forum is the community that you so strongly wish to build. It is your brand to most people and is a strong point of difference. Your mag cannot compete with other mags for circulation. Your website cannot compete with others for content. Your forum is unique and is the ultimate expression of UGC. Whilst ad revenue is falling, there is still a significant opportunity to leverage the forum through a low cost/high volume pay-to-use model. Sort out the functionality, fix the classifieds (which was traditionally a real point of difference but is now a huge source of frustration) and charge a small fee to a large pool of users.
4) Since you can no longer rely on advertising either online or thorough the magazine, subscriber numbers are absolutely key to your success. Balance your recruitment strategy with your retention strategy. Your recruitment strategy feels too rich, and your retention strategy feels non existent.
5) Don’t hide your chargeable content behind a hard paywall. Potential subscribers don’t actually know what they might be missing and you have an all or nothing approach to chargeable content which acts as a barrier to trial. Perhaps a 5 day free trial might be enough as a recruitment tactic and then convert them to a full price subscription after that.
A brief summary, but whether you agree with all of the content of this thread, and whether you feel bruised by some of it, there is plenty to reflect on. The free-form feedback and passion expressed are worth far more than any channelled survey that you might conduct and to most businesses this would be solid gold. Don’t be offended, don’t take it personally. Use it.
You have a business model where your loyalists are willing to pay more for the product, and even the occasional users whose conversion to paying customers is so fundamental to your success are telling you that they wouldn’t mind paying a small amount to use the online content and forum. That’s not a bad starting point!
Print Subscriber here, I read the forum almost daily, although I rarely sign in, so I just put up with the ads.
Looking at the website just now realised theres quite a few interesting articles (just read about Stanton Bikes).
So I guess what I'm trying to say the website doesn't really grab my attention.
(not really sure if this is due signing in or not)
I think the shop needs an overhaul, a lot of Singletrack branded merchandise which I dont see appealing to the typical stw user(jigsaw etc) so theres money tied up in stock etc or the initial stock procurement in the 1st place.
Shop for me would be more practical items, such as singletrack buffs, or technical hoodies rather than the heavy cotton items, things that people would use on their bikes. I like the artwork but again it's a small audience for this as it seems to be very location specific, i.e. I'm not going to purchase a print of The Peak District when I'm in Northumberland.
@mark to generate some income quickly could you not produce some magazine type publication with your existing trail routes? You've already got the content.I for one would buy this, I personally much prefer a trail book rather than accessing routes off the web.
Haven't read the Mag in years but haven't read any mag in years so can't really comment on that.
To convert me into a paying member the content of the website needs an entire overhaul, as does the user experience of the website & forum.
No idea what happened to Will but the closest I've been to resubscribing is when he was there, seemed like he brought not necessarily fresh ideas but a fresh way of doing things.
@Mark Have you looked into encouraging people using the Brave browser to visit this site and then donate some or all of the resulting BAT to STW? Or some sort of similar solution?
I know this technically comes under ad-blocking but it sounds like the model of using ad-revenue to support the business is busted anyway.
It might be interesting to look into how much BAT you could generate if 50%, 40%, 30%, etc of users contributed their BAT to STW.
FIX THE BLOODY EDITOR!!!
Please please contribute for more shit experience isn't a winning formula.
Works fine for me?
Not sure if you mean the edit function or the actual editor themselves?!
I just realised that STW is already a Verified Creator according to the Brave browser so I guess someone in the office was already aware of it. I set it up to donate a monthly tip of 10 BAT per month to STW.
Honestly, if the ad generated revenue has dried up I don't see what you've got to lose by pushing this a bit. Unless the actual revenues you would see are vanishingly small but if every person who browsed the site gave you the equivalent of $1 per month I really don't see how you wouldn't be perfectly comfortable.
I suspect that the number of folk who are going to install and use another browser just to access the STW forum is also vanishingly small
It would take a behaviour change, but that's why I suggested STW should try pushing this. If the ad generated revenue model is now not worth it, I think people would be more receptive to something like this than requests for more money every few months.
I would say the effort required to install a new browser and set up a monthly tip is less than the effort required to navigate to the subscription page, find and enter all your credit card details, find your phone for the 2FA, and check that the payment went through.
Not to mention the psychological barrier of starting to pay for something you've always gotten for free.
In this way you'll be paying to use STW but you'll be paying money that you were never aware of in the first place.
Full member here. Enjoy the mag. Visit the forum numerous times daily.
Some observations.
1. I'm underwhelmed by the website. Recently there have been reviews on the front page that are 18 months old.
2. The shop is a mess. Loads of stuff listed that isn't in stock, or only in 1 size. Disorganised, not categorised. Stuff with minimal/limited appeal.
3. Lack of reviews. Given the stuff that gets sent in on FGF, Cheap Goods Tuesday or whatever, very little of it ever seems to make its way into a review. This has a knock on effect of visitors to the site ... if people Google search review of 'X' product, and find STW have reviewed it, that would encourage more people to the site.
4. Without being funny/harsh, what do the current staff team do? Realise there is magazine production, subscription, IT, shop etc. But, lots of the magazine articles are written by freelancers/contributers. And as per point 3, there aren't actually that many product reviews, or features, produced by the staff on the website. Given STW is a MTB media brand, there does seem a lack of content.
(I'll caveat all of point 4 with acknowledging I have zero knowledge of journalism, how much time it takes to produce content, or all the background stuff that goes on behind production that we never see. Also, no idea what size teams there are running rival publications)
5. Linked to 3 and 4. above, YouTube? This has been suggested a few times, but I've not seen a specific response.
6. Are you employing the right people? I like what the team write, some of it is excellent. But, it's mostly quite mature, thoughtful, considered stuff, there's little in the way of provocative/challenging/investigative stuff. And there's little dynamism. I guess when you compare with someone like Guy Kestevan (appreciate that not everyone likes his style) who churns out a column for BikePerfect every week, plus several product reviews, plus YT video reviews, that kind of highlights my questions above.
Brave might help, but it is marginal at best. Focus on the big stuff and it would be pretty insignificant.
Survey of 1 - I wouldn't change my browser for one website.
On the subject of YouTube, it is clear to the world that this is a huge generator of traffic and revenue, but one that Mark has discounted in favour of a printed magazine with 6k subscribers. Go figure!
Whatever you think of the presenters on your favourite Youtube channels, they all have a strong personality. What little video content appears from STW has a very awkward, home made 'drawing the meat raffle' vibe to it. Presenting is a skill, and not everybody is a natural (me included!).
The shop and “Random chains”.
What’s going on here is the ST store is offering everyday consumables at really good prices to members. Sure it’s a random chain if you don’t need a chain, but it’s also a rather good member perk if you do, or want to bag a bargain for your spares box.
If you are not a member you will see the normal RRP. Members see a price which is just about the best in the U.K. and get free postage too.
We keep a watch on trade offers and pick wisely. There was also a great deal on colourful Fist brand gloves. Coming up soon there will be SPD cleats and hopefully some hip packs.
Someone mentioned technical riding clothing. We have tech shirts, but other riding clothing such as jackets or hoodies takes a big financial commitment as they have chunky minimum order quantities. This area is already very well served by countless cycle specific clothing brands.
“casual shirts”. That will be the Club Ride plaid shirts that have been super popular. A unique product that is full of tech, don’t dismiss them as casual riding gear. I’ve been riding in them for years from day rides to bikepacking trips.
Jigsaws. They went really well, and we have sold out several times. Yep… not my scene, but we have sold hundreds. The silent jigsaw bikers are out there.
“Not categorised”. There are category and size filters along the top.
Jigsaws are popular with present buyers. My mum got me a Forest of Dean one for xmas... just a slither of singletrack through the woods. Quite nice really.
Charlie, you can turn the "fancy" editor off in your preferences... 😉
Brave might help, but it is marginal at best.
What are you basing that on?
The shop and “Random chains”.
What’s going on here is the ST store is offering everyday consumables at really good prices to members. Sure it’s a random chain if you don’t need a chain, but it’s also a rather good member perk if you do, or want to bag a bargain for your spares box.
If you are not a member you will see the normal RRP. Members see a price which is just about the best in the U.K. and get free postage too.
We keep a watch on trade offers and pick wisely. There was <span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>also a great deal on colourful Fist brand gloves. Coming up soon there will be SPD cleats and hopefully some hip packs.
</span><span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>
Someone mentioned technical riding clothing. We have tech shirts, but other riding clothing such as jackets or hoodies takes a big financial commitment as they have chunky minimum order quantities. This area is already very well served by countless cycle specific clothing brands.“casual shirts”. That will be the Club Ride plaid shirts that have been super popular. A unique product that is full of tech, don’t dismiss them as casual riding gear. I’ve been riding in them for years from day rides to bikepacking trips.
</span><span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>
</span>Jigsaws. They went really well, and we have sold out several times. Yep… not my scene, but we have sold hundreds. The silent jigsaw bikers are out there.
Oh the irony. Just look at the formatting of Charlie's post!!!!!
Charlie actually works here and even he can't master the functionality of the forum. What hope do the rest of us have?!
SO much goodness in that one post!
What’s going on here is the ST store is offering everyday consumables at really good prices to members.
Thanks Charlie, appreciate the reply (on a Sunday too). Twas me criticising the stock, so feel free to call me an arse. Maybe what I was getting at is that I wouldn't normally think of the ST shop first for spares. (Perhaps I should?)
My shirts comment related to the causal t-shirts. I wasn't dissing the plaid shirts.
Didn't know about min order requirements for tech collabs, so appreciate that.
Still think the shop could do with sweeping some stuff into a clearance section to freshen it up though.
Cheers
Check out the Funn valve article on the homepage right now for a perfectly good reason why you will find it hard to attract subscribers if you keep doing what you are doing........
You have simply reprinted a press release. Lazy journalism won't help your aim to increase subscriber numbers!
1) What's your view on these? Good/Bad/Indifferent? Are you planing a review? Have you seen them? Are you adding any more value than a copy/paste of a press release?
2) How much are they? They look like a brilliant (and potentially lower priced?) version of the Santa Cruz Reserve version, but how do I know that?
3) I can't even buy them anywhere! They aren't on the Funn website linked and after a bit of digging it turns out that CRC distribute them, but I can't buy them on CRC either.
C'mon chaps. You are really going to need to raise your game if you want to achieve your goals!!!!
And where's the press release about the new Hope Pro 5 that Hope themselves have just released (on YouTube BTW, just saying - feels like the future!). Oh, let me tell you where it is - a fellow STW member has just posted it on the forum (having seen it somewhere else) and beaten you to it.
The writing is on the wall and the lessons are there for all to see. Your challenge is whether you can see them and do something about it.
This will be final post on this one ('hurray' - the entire STW staff) before I risk being banned or divorced! You need to be self critical, work on the feedback in this thread and go forth and grow STW. Best of luck and bon voyage!
I’ve been a member for 12 years. I recently changed to digital only as I had over 20 magazines that hadn’t been taken out of their envelopes.
The local routes and guides are of no interested to me as I am based in Belfast; Ireland (North or South) is rarely acknowledged. I have no interest in the articles on “Snow”, opinion pieces, Lamborghinis or the frequent re-hashed press-releases.
I am interested in the reviews of bikes and gear. However as others have said, almost every other free content provider does this substantially better. For example, I was looking forward to the review of the 12-speed XT, modern geo, full-sus Canyon 125 which concluded “it has much more in common with a fully rigid steel singlespeed than a modern full-suspension trail bike.”
Some people have offered (in my opinion) valuable in-depth constructive criticism of the value what Singletrack offers. Some of the responses from staff seem a little defensive, for example, the suggestion that “members see a price which is just about the best in the U.K” which a quick google search clearly disproves. It can be hard engage with feedback you disagree with but surely these are the voices that it would be beneficial to engage with.
The only aspect I use and enjoy is the forum. I have been happy to pay to contribute to the forum; having paid for many years I did find the page asking to ‘pay a little more’ a little unsavoury.
@charliedontsurf appreciate your input regarding the shop. WRT members discounts this is the first I've ever heard. If you're doing stuff like that then you really need to shout about it more. Branded stuff has "member discount" banners so the parts need that as well. Maybe even put the members price in small typeface as an incentive if its not going to upset anyone.
I also used the filter the other day, "other stuff" was just a jumble sale of "crap we couldn't be bothered categorising". You've run a shop, a very good one IMO, so know what a good UX looks like. It just needs a bit more thought put into it.
As for "pay to post" - HELL NO! I can't think of a worse way to kill a forum dead. Maybe regulars would stump up but anyone new would just turn around and go elsewhere.
As for “pay to post” – HELL NO! I can’t think of a worse way to kill a forum dead. Maybe regulars would stump up but anyone new would just turn around and go elsewhere.
@squirrelking Just for some lazy market research and as you are apparently a free member, do you think you could be persuaded to use the Brave browser and then set the proceeds to be automatically sent to STW each month?
Bearing in mind that Brave acts as a type of ad-blocker that allows you to send your advertising proceeds to the site you choose?
Hmmmnnn.
Not a business or marketing expert in any capacity, but things that occur to me...
Totally respect Mark's attachment to the print media, but for me (and clearly for a LOT of others) the Forum IS Singletrack. It's my 'home' on the 'net. I've browsed / contributed to / moderated many specialist forums over the years and very few come close to STW in terms of expert knowledge (on a huge range of subjects - not just bikes), level of discussion (discounting some of the politics threads), and sense of fun (although this is the one thing that might have weakened recently). Basically, to echo a lot of others the obvious first response is to monetise the forum in some way that doesn't rely on ad revenue?
I do think that STW is having a bit of a mid-life crisis in terms of identity. Looking at the site, and even flicking through the mag, I'm not always sure what it's 'about'. I'm guessing that I'm pretty much target demographic (early 50s, been MTBing for years and years, reluctantly middle-class, left-leaning liberal) but I'm not sure I recognise myself in the STW branding and articles at the moment. That might be me being an outlier though. I don't think STW has the desire or capacity to be a Pinkbike-lite all things to all riders but I do think it needs to have a sharper, more easily understood focus or small series of focii that could hook in subscribers. Again, might just be me but my current perception is that things orbit around 'adventure' riding and weirdly parochial stuff. I've not given this a huge amount of though but stuff I don't see covered elsewhere that might have some legs...
- Grass Roots UK racing across all disciplines (just look at the popularity of, and engagement with, weeksy's thread).
- A real focus on local riding around the UK, whatever that looks like (not just the honeypots).
- Sustainability in what can be a pretty 'single-use', transport-heavy hobby.
- The experience of 'normal' UK MTBers - their bikes, kit and riding.
(basically, using some of the common concerns of the forum to drive more content for the published material?)
I agree with the YouTube suggestions too, but again the content of that would need to be carefully curated and produced to a level beyond the current STW video output (which TBH is a bit (knowingly?) amateurish and awkward). Is there a gap for a sightly more thoughtful GMBN type mix of magazine shows, riding clips and workshop stuff? With the magazine having a pretty good emphasis on visuals and photography, there's for me an obvious opportunity to take that sensibility and style into video content.
I joined as a digital member yesterday. Mainly as I thought I'd give the rest of website a bit of a go (I've been Forum user only since 2009) and to give something back after making a few £100 on the classifieds last year and am about to list a couple of bikes. I'm still seeing adverts and showing as a 'free member' though. Does the membership have to wait until office hours to be manually updated?
[Mod] we seem to be having a few glitches unfortunately but we can certainly check for you tomorrow. Apologies for the inconvenience.
nope, been a member for years & had no idea! Someone has dropped the ball on the communication/getting the word out front!Maybe what I was getting at is that I wouldn’t normally think of the ST shop first for spares. (Perhaps I should?)
That said, I’d be happy to buy consumables (chains, pads, etc) off STW if the price was comparable to the online discount places.
If people weren’t in a hurry, could you save the postage/planet by popping small items people have ordered in with the mag each month? 🤔
If people weren’t in a hurry, could you save the postage/planet by popping small items people have ordered in with the mag each month?
imagine that would be a logistical nightmare as suspect that mag is printed/shipped straight from the printers.
with consumables, would the effort be worth the benefits (if there any) financially?
Mmmm have been reading this with interest. I post infrequently this days, but wanted to pop up to say I agree with so much of what people are saying here. What comes across throughout is a genuine love and desire to see STW survive and thrive in some form. But things really do have to change.
I've been here since GoFar. I was one of the original 200 or so people that subscribed to make STW a thing and I have been a full member since that day. I wonder how many of us from the original genesis are still here?
I've always loved print (I don't read any longform articles online), but have long since lost the excitement of the magazine arriving and rarely read much of the content. E.g the only thing I've read in the last copy was Chipps' article, just to see what he was up to. It's felt stale for a long, long time, and I've only stayed subscribed out of loyalty and probably inertia. The loss of Jenn was heartbreaking and no one since has written with her insight, intelligence and the integrity of a talented rider sharing their experience. With Privateer gone, Cranked is arguably better at this niche of the market, and the amount of us print readers happy to pay the cover price has to be pretty small now.
The website is ****ing awful. I'm subscribed because with ads it is totally unusable. The only place I come to is the forum, I don't read any of the articles anywhere else on the site for all the reasons discussed. Occasionally I look at FGF which is generally a horrible stream of consciousness/ spelling mistakes/ inaccuracies, with all the random music clips (why?)... Barney was genuinely funny and entertaining in his tenure .. since then, it's just milding irritating.
I go to PinkBike for news/ current stuff and Wideopen/ NSMB/ EnduroMTB for other articles/ reviews etc.
The forum has it ups and downs, but it's been a constant in my life for over 20+ years and I don't think there has ever been a subject or topic on literally anything that someone can't help with if you need advice. That is genuinely remarkable, it's a unique community full of opinions, petty squabbles, disagreements, but also much laughter and love. There really is nothing else like it.
I've not been back to the Classifieds since it changed, whenever that was. I sell and buy exclusively on PinkBike, it's easy and efficient.
I too am an early 50s, middle-class ish, lefty leaning person ... and whilst we are the constant and have been the staple of STW for all this time, as a business you have to look beyond us. Just over 10 years ago I serendipitously left my 'corporate' life and ended up in the bike industry, where I still work now employing about the same amount of people as STW. There is no scenario in our business that would see me going cap in hand to our customers. Suffice to say that you've had some really excellent advice earlier in the thread that is no doubt now feeding into your thinking.
@solarider. Great contribution. No idea if you're right, but I thought it well considered and informative.
Not much to add, but I worked for a major publisher of print media (anybody over 50 will more than likely have bought one of their products) and I watched the slow decline as they cut costs by reducing content and print quality. They missed out on the growth of You tube and made a pathetic attempt to get a foot in the You tube door.
The company were eventually sold to a business that was only interested in the digital offerings and all print media was stopped. I realise that Mark is keen to keep the mag, but looking long term I can't see how it will remain profitable. Specialist print media is dead.
And please put a header up at the top that say's 'Affliate links' + sort the classifieds.
Who stole the preview button?
I like singletrack as a place and the print mag is a wonderful thing, but I don't read a lot of the content of the website because there isn't a whole bunch that is relevant to me - I tend to spend more time on PB and NSMB for that side of things. Can't comment on ads as I aggressivle block them absolutely everywhere and always have. Sidenote - I work for a large publishing company (by accident - they bought us) and god help me if I accidentally click a link to one of our outlets in the wrong browser on my work laptop because without all the gubbins I usally use its an unreadable vomit of ads. We've got entire teams dedicated to writing tech to enable this and to drive affiliate marketing and all the other related stuff to make money off of it and it only sort of works because of the econmomies of scale that we can leverage. I'm not sure how it's evenn feasible for the likes of singletrack (and I guess the point is that it actually sort of isn't) to compete with that.
There's some interesting ideas in this thread about how singletrack could evolve, so fingers crossed.
I used to work in specialist magazines back when it was a license to print money. 3-4 months a year away, paid to do my sport and 8-9 months slaving away in the studio.
I had my meltdown and got out around 2002 just before the big importers fragmented into a bunch of smaller ones and the internet started being an attractive proposition. Now I don't know what I'd do. Advertisers seem loathe to pay for digital ads, the mags costs go up as printing gets stupid.
Content costs the same to create whether is is for print or digital.
Flying people around the world to great venues is expense. If you don't do that then you end up with some depressing images shot in less than ideal conditions because it is the UK and you have a deadline.
It used to be done, the rival mag used to come out two weeks before us. We'd grab a copy, see what they were testing in the next issue, ring the importers, blag the kit and a day later be on a plane somewhere windy and sunny to test and photograph it, write it while away, get back and bang it in the mag days before their issue came out.
All because the money was coming in.
We had a big advantage over Singletrack as we published several titles so the cost of accounts and subscriptopn matters and premises and design staff was spread wider.
I'm rambling but those days are gone. Singletrack seems to want to stay in them.
The mag the YT channel and the website all have the same problems imo. They need freshening up and the content needs to be cleaner and punchier.
Could YT be a good source of income? I have never worked out how YT revenue works. The following review is good, 2 mins shorter and it would be better and I'd more inclined to watch the next review.
Btw I have read the mag since issue 1 but like others I dont anymore. I subscribe not to block ads nor to read the mag but purely in the hope the forum carries on.
nothing remotely ‘bannable’ in anything you have posted.
Oh let him have his 15 minutes.
The idea of a payment to use the forum should not be chucked out imo.
Something like £12 a year to use forum inc. classifieds (old style classifieds)
£xx to get online mag and member offers
£xx to get print subscription
Oh let him have his 15 minutes.
Constructive. Very constructive. That should certainly help get STW out of this dilemma.
There was me thinking I was somehow making a sensible contribution but now that my selfish egotistical motives have been righteously exposed by Drac’s Sword of Truth I feel small, foolish and grateful for you exposing my real motive.
Please accept my apologies Drac. I would love to hear your more informed and altruistic views on the matter. Perhaps the usual STW bickering as the ship sinks might be just the thing that we need. That should definitely attract more fee paying customers and revenue to the site.
Constructive. Very constructive. That should certainly help get STW out of this dilemma.
You beat me to it there, I was about to say the same thing, almost word for word!
Just tried to message you, but that seems to be broken?
I'd like to think that there is no malice behind Drac's comment, just an off the cuff remark. I've said it earlier, but I consider your contributions well thought out and considered, so please continue.
Ha thanks. I have broad enough shoulders to withstand Drac’s mighty Sword of Truth! It’s all part of the STW banter to some degree but also a bit to do with why more people don’t find the place as welcoming and accepting as they might need to in order to pay to be here.
There’s not much more to add really, hence my comment earlier.
Mark and the team have a lot of opportunity and lots of options.
I really hope that they make the right decisions.
I was reflecting on this morning’s ride (beautiful day for it BTW!) about why I give a sh1t about this. Partly because for once I have professional experience that might help. But more importantly, I feel like STW is a big part of my life.
Over many years it has seen me through single life, a failed marriage, my father’s death, finding my life partner, the birth of my son, it has been my link back to the UK when I have lived overseas. It has been a constant in my life and the diverse bunch of contributors have been a source of advice, enjoyment and solidarity. I have met very few of them in person but this place was a social network before social media was even a ‘thing’. I feel strangely compelled to try to help somehow.
We might have different political views, we might have different jobs, incomes, attitudes, ways of communicating but we all love fannying about on bikes and that is a wonderful glue that binds us.
I thought you were a newbie 🤣🤣🤣
The reply was to your comment about being banned, you haven’t broken any rules. HTH.
As for feedback on the business. I have any ideas I have direct contact with the team.
Thought I'd take a peek at the main page.
The idea of a payment to use the forum should not be chucked out imo.
Something like £12 a year to use forum inc. classifieds (old style classifieds)
How do you hope to attract new members?
Pay to play almost always (I say 'almost always' because doubtless someone will pull out some obscure reference I've never heard of to contradict me if I said 'absolutely') never works. All that would happen is that a proportion of the present members would pay and new membership would dry up. Putting the forum behind a paywall is a terrible idea.
This:
[Colournoise]. I’ve not given this a huge amount of though but stuff I don’t see covered elsewhere that might have some legs…
– Grass Roots UK racing across all disciplines (just look at the popularity of, and engagement with, weeksy’s thread).
– A real focus on local riding around the UK, whatever that looks like (not just the honeypots).
– Sustainability in what can be a pretty ‘single-use’, transport-heavy hobby.
– The experience of ‘normal’ UK MTBers – their bikes, kit and riding.(basically, using some of the common concerns of the forum to drive more content for the published material?)
I’ve said this before, I was a Subscriber from Issue 2 or 3, bought (or maybe was given) issue 1 at one of the 24hr races by Mark. I thought at the time the mag was a breath of fresh air, good quality photography, grown up writing. I cancelled the subscription around 5 years ago. It wasnt the same, reviews of £1000 wheels (this was when a typical set of Mavics was £150-300), and lights at £500 when ebay copies were £50, less photography and watercolour pictures. It lost me, as I’m not made of money, and the articles were just not interesting any more, the reviews of Rolls Royces, when I was in the market for a cheap car. There used to be a lot of articles about local rides, places to go etc. That was lost, and with it a lot of the interest for me.
As for Staff, Ive said this before, you have 6k subscribers, why are there 9+ Staff? With so many Staff, you’d expect the output of a newspaper nowadays, but I dont see that content on the website, or even the content from 4 Staff. Really, what do they do? Their job is to get a good magazine, with well written, intersting articles.
Get back to basics, the print world is dying, but with just a few Staff you might be able to survive. Selling a few things from the Shop? - come on, I’d say that doesnt even cover the expenses of one employee. If it does, then you need to change your business direction, and expand it, as it is clear the magazine distribution will not increase, but its cost will.The Forum is still awful. Pop up ads on every page. Who ever clicks on these ads? I get a ‘godaddy’ pop up on every page. I would never click on it, and cant believe many would, so why irritate potential forum viewers with thes intrusive ads? Make it easily accessible, have ads down one side or the other, or maybe both sides of a page. Expand your range of ads. I’m looking for a car in 9 months or so time. Reviews soem cars to see how to fit bikes in the back - there are enough queries on this subject on the forum, that I’m not sure why you’ve missed it. Add in roof and tail brackets, something that many UK bikers are interested in - go to the trail centres and see what people are using, that’d make a good article.
I’m sorry to say it, but you’ve got too big, and not kept up with business requirements, you need to reset, and totally change.
why are there 9+ Staff? With so many Staff, you’d expect the output of a newspaper nowadays, but I dont see that content on the website, or even the content from 4 Staff.
They have in-house IT amongst other things. You can see from the below link.
Well I've been a free member since at least 2012 according to my emails and I've never paid to be a member nor a subscriber etc. I'm here on a daily basis, several times during the day in fact. I'm a member on a few different forums but this is the one I frequent the most because my passion is cycling. I guess I'm probably a typical person who you're hoping to convert to a paying member of some sort. I don't pay for any forums and I actually dont know of any forums that do charge (I'm sure they do exist but over the years I've never gone to a forum and not been able to access it because I'm not a member). For me there is nothing else involved in the equation from home page content to the magazine to justify the spends. I don't buy a magazine to read about other people doing something I get enjoyment out of because you can't recreate that feeling I get when I ride a bike and that's all I'm in it for. I like to keep up to date with news/release articles, that's why I occasionally visit bike rumour, but I can just look at the forum for that because a forum user spots it first. We've all seen the rumour posts, someone has spotted a leaked article and shared it. I don't bother to read any review articles or FGF because stuff turning up in the post and being tried on or stared at gives me absolutely zero perspective as to how it'll be a week or a month later. If I need a genuine user review I just go to the forum and ask for people who own and use it. Clothing reviews are pointless because I'm the minority around here as I'm female so I'd also need to find a proper review of women's clothing by a woman who has actually used it.
I've recently cancelled my zwift membership, cancelled my NHS prescription, negotiated my phone contract down all in an effort to save money. The forum works just fine for no cost and so that woudn't drive me to pay. Yes I wish we could post instagram posts again, yes it takes a moment to upload my image to imgur before then sharing it but it's a free forum so I just think oh well that's that.
Why would I pay £25 for something that by the sounds of it won't survive 12 months, especially when this is the umpteenth beg. If a mate came to me and said give us £25 I'd give it with no justification needed but if I disappeared tomorrow nobody would notice or blink an eye. If I came on tomorrow and found out I needed to be a paid member in order to post or even view, I wouldn't pay simply because there isn't enough justification in it.
That probably doesn't help at all but I'd imagine it's the same view as a lot of free members who just frequent the forum who get no benefit from either the magazine nor the other content.
Clothing reviews are pointless because I’m the minority around here as I’m female so I’d also need to find a proper review of women’s clothing by a woman who has actually used it.
Hannah, Amanda and Zoe do tests too.
If I need a genuine user review I just go to the forum and ask for people who own and use it.
This x 1,000
I'm genuinely shocked ( to the extent that I don't actually believe that) people place any importance whatsoever in what a magazine writer says about a bike product. I'm really amazed that anyone else does TBH. The idea of asking one opinionated author in a magazine what a bike is like is just nuts. Especially when that magazine has to keep on the right side of the industry.
I am extremely interested in what the writing portion of the 130k STW members think. Hell yes.
If I need a genuine user review I just go to the forum and ask for people who own and use it.
Who do you think should pay for hosting/managing that forum?