It does not.
Cheers.
No biggie anyway, my current Shimano-ish 11sp setups are working fine.
🙂
@squirrelking @scotroutes very good 😀 ! I need to peruse a dictionary for more ideas or I will have to vamoos(e) from this CUES thread.
Cues website is unhelpful - looks like only the U4000 cranks are listed at the moment, which are Octalink, but there’s an external BB listed in the parts list.
Edit - sorry, talking nonsense, U6000 up as well and these look to be 24mm EBB
Well the core MTB groupset, Deore XT has gone back to 11 speed.
11 speed FTW
Well the core MTB groupset, Deore XT has gone back to 11 speed.
11 speed FTW
Source?
I believe there are now three variants of XT... one is 12 speed and the others are 11 speed. Not confusing at all.
Eurggghhh, not what I had hoped to hear just after ordering a Shimano Sora 9-speed touring bike with a triple! 🙄
At least I opted for disc brakes this time. I do have some spare hubs, derailleurs and levers just in case though and will likely keep my eye out for any discounted parts.
Any views on whether the hubs are going to be front 100mm and rear 135mm OLD compatible for the TC500 / QC500 range?
XT LG was 11 speed last year, and the year before that, if you could buy it that was. Di2 XT has remained 11 speed throughout.
So XT is Still HG+ 12 Speed
XT Di2 is Still HG 11 Speed
XT Linkglide is now called U8000 11 Speed
EP8 XT is both 12 and 11 speed.
And of course there's whatever updates Shimano brings to XT 12 speed when that is due an update. 13 Speed anyone?
Simples.
The “EP8 XT” is also Linkglide in 11spd. I was leaving out the ebike specific groups. If you include them there are 5 XT variants… three of which are di2, two of which are linkglide, three of which are 11 speed, the other two are 12 speed. What could be simpler? 🫣
Not everyone rides full suspension, moreso at the “affordable” end of the market.
then they can use the front shifting parts that shimano include in most of their group sets.
then they can use the front shifting parts that shimano include in most of their group sets.
Okay, we'll start form the beginning.
This is a groupset designed from the ground up for the "affordable" end of the market, in particular touring. Do you know what touring drivetrains even look like? I'll give you a clue, they're not the same as 1x full suspension trail centre bikes.
This is a groupset designed from the ground up for the “affordable” end of the market, in particular touring. Do you know what touring drivetrains even look like? I’ll give you a clue, they’re not the same as 1x full suspension trail centre bikes.
please calm down. you made the comment that not everyone wants a single ring drivetrain in what came across in a dismissive fashion. shimano have not discontinued the production of multi-ring drive trains, especially at the lower ends of their ranges, while single rings have made suspension bikes better.
as it happens, i have no idea what a touring group set looks like. i don’t tend to see them at trail centres.
What could be simpler? 🫣
🤷🏻♂️
please calm down. you made the comment that not everyone wants a single ring drivetrain in what came across in a dismissive fashion.
If that's the way it came across I apologise, I was just pointing out that a budget groupset will be designed around budget bikes. Nothing more.
Touring setups have multi ring fronts hence the inclusion of such.
If that’s the way it came across I apologise, I was just pointing out that a budget groupset will be designed around budget bikes. Nothing more.
no problem. just so you know, i am familiar with touring group sets. like mtb, but with bar end shifters. i was just being silly
I really love Shimano model names, they are so memorable and intuitive. For example, I just can't wait to get hold of an RD-U8020.
I really love Shimano model names, they are so memorable and intuitive.
Yep. From what I understand, Deore (D'Or, "Gold") was originally the high-end groupset. Then Shimano introduced Deore XT at the racing level version of Deore, which was eventually topped by XTR. Before long, there was Deore, Deore LX, Deore XT, and XTR. At some point they decided to drop Deore except for the affordable stuff and renamed LX as SLX. It was still easy enough to match model numbers to names though, XTR was 900 level stuff, XT was 800, and so on. Then they started making stuff that seemed to be Deore level, but could have 500 or 600 series numbers. Now they're back to calling a whole range of stuff CUES, but it could be XT level, it could be Alivio, it could be 8-speed, or 9-speed, or 10-speed. Just utterly confusing.
Then there's i-Spec...
The jockey-wheels on the rear mech look a bit wee.
I thought that bigger was better?
The move to cartridge bearings on their hubs looks like a step in the right direction.
It's interesting that people seem to be conflating cable pull and sprocket pitch.
Nothing they've published really discusses what the different cassette spacings will be but I can imagine various reasons why Shimano would either replicate their existing pitches, or simply invent new ones I think we should just see what comes out.
To be clear they've never had common pitch and just lopped a sprocket off or added one, it's always varied historically and they've changed the amount of cable pulled by the shifter proportionately. That even applies now MTB 11 and 12 are just slightly tweaked increments of Dynasis in terms of cable pull.
To be clear they’ve never had common pitch and just lopped a sprocket off or added one
MTB HG 10/11 speed.
To be clear they’ve never had common pitch and just lopped a sprocket off or added one, it’s always varied historically and they’ve changed the amount of cable pulled by the shifter proportionately
I thought 6-8 speed was cross compatible (which I am aware is from the dawn of time, but I’ve still got 8sp XT on the Hybrid of Doom)
MTB HG 10/11 speed.
3.95/3.9mm they're not identical
Deore (D’Or, “Gold”) was originally the high-end groupset. Then Shimano introduced Deore XT
Some interesting background here...
https://www.shimano.com/en/100th/history/products/result.php?id=27
And here...
https://www.shimano.com/en/100th/history/products/result.php?id=31
Deore was originally for touring, then adapted into a second-tier MTB groupset.
I had Deore 2 on my 1989 Kili Flyer and it was pretty much the same as my pal's XT, but possibly more durable (or I was just a less smashy rider).
3.95/3.9mm they’re not identical
Go and measure 0.05mm.
🤓
Nothing they’ve published really discusses what the different cassette spacings will be but I can imagine various reasons why Shimano would either replicate their existing pitches, or simply invent new ones I think we should just see what comes out.
It has been, in the NSMB article it specifically says the cassette pitch will be common across all speeds.
I thought 6-8 speed was cross compatible (which I am aware is from the dawn of time, but I’ve still got 8sp XT on the Hybrid of Doom)
You're right, it is. It was only when 9 speed came out that they started messing with the pitch.
@cha****ng
Thanks for the links. Ok, so Deore XT was always the top tier. I did not know that. One thing about those articles though, Deore was not derived from "deer", that's a myth. It came from French "d'or", meaning "gold." When it's written in Japanese katakana characters (used for foreign loanwords), it corresponds to deore in the English alphabet.
Deore was originally for touring, then adapted into a second-tier MTB groupset.I had Deore 2 on my 1989 Kili Flyer and it was pretty much the same as my pal’s XT, but possibly more durable (or I was just a less smashy rider).
When I was getting into MTB in the mid-90's, XT and XTR were already established groupsets - the "R" standing for Race. I remember the new STX coming out which pushed the existing LX up and filled the gap between that and the much lower grade Tourney/Altus stuff on entry level bikes.
The word "Deore" was kind of loosely attached to STX and LX before LX got pushed over into touring / trekking bikes (and renamed) and SLX came in for MTBs. ANd then in 2000, "Deore" came in as a MTB groupset in its own right.
I had an SLX groupset on test for Singletrack for a while. That's probably about as modern as my MTB groupsets ever got! My only MTB now has a mix of old XT and XTR with a Race Face crank! 😳
When can I have a nice 1x 9-42 10spd?
Didn’t Canfield Bros or someone make a wide range cassette/hub based on Shimano’s special small wheel stuff (that I now can’t remember the name of, but had a stepped free hub body)
Deore was not derived from “deer”, that’s a myth. It came from French “d’or”, meaning “gold.”
Original Deore actually had a picture of a deer on it, so if Shimano didn't want people to think it was named after a deer, they did a bad job.
The word “Deore” was kind of loosely attached to STX and LX before LX got pushed over into touring / trekking bikes (and renamed) and SLX came in for MTBs. ANd then in 2000, “Deore” came in as a MTB groupset in its own right.
the first XT in 1982 was called "deore xt", and deore as a rear mech (DE10) pre-dated that by a year, so the names been around for 42 years (!)
https://www.disraeligears.co.uk/site/shimano_bicycle_system_components_-_1981_page_34.html
Ok, so Deore came out in 1981, with Deore XT in 1983 and XTR in 1991. The deer thing came later, it wasn't the origin of the name.
Capturing the zeitgeist, Shimano packaged the later Deores in a box with the famous ‘Deer Head’ logo - and so this derailleur came to be known as the Deore Deer Head. Note, however, that the instructions mention neither mountain biking nor decapitated ruminant mammals - they unequivocally describe the Deore as ‘perfect for touring’.
https://www.disraeligears.co.uk/site/derailleur_brands_beginning_with_s.html
Original Deore actually had a picture of a deer on it,
Nope.
What does the XT bit stand for though?
[ original Deore XT M700 rear mech ]
What does the XT bit stand for though?
Wasn't it Cross Terrain or something? As in, it could cross all terrain.
XTR was definitely XT-Race.
Or maybe it was literally two random letters that sounded good.🤷
The 1980 Deore didn't have the deer head on the mech it would seem, but it was on the marketing blurb / logo.
TBH though 5 seconds of google and I find its actually stated on Shimano's own website that it means Deer. Im probably sticking with Deer in which case.
Ah nostalgia, it’s not what it used to be…
My first mtb had stx-rc bits on it in 1994. 7 speed. I don’t think that groupset hung around too long though.
Except that the Japanese word for "deer" is "shika", and the Japanese transliteration of "deer" would be "de-re" (with a long vowel), not "deore". If you based it on pronunciation, it would be "deare" (de-ah-re), there's no way to transliterate it with the "o" there. If you say "deore" to a Japanese person, they won't know what you're talking about unless they're a cyclist, but "d'or" is borrowed from French.
would be “de-re” (with a long vowel), not “deore”
Yes, but they would have been making up a new unique name, not reusing an existing word... just starting with it. It might well be that Shimano have it wrong, or want to re-write history to tell the story they want, but their copy does say...
"SHIMANO DEORE was introduced as a full-fledged components series for touring at the beginning of the 1980s. DEORE was a coined word from deer, representing the touring scene with riders splendidly riding around fields and mountains on bicycles while enjoying cycling."
And they did stick the Deer head logo on the first Deore XT... for some reason.
Yes, but they were making up a new unique name, not reusing a existing word… just starting with it.
But, the transliteration of "d'or" into Japanese is ディオーレ, which transcribes to English as "deore". So, the origin of the word is "d'or" (gold). When they sold it internationally, people had no idea what it meant and mistook it for "deer". Shimano marketing saw this and decided to use the deer thing as marketing. It isn't a transliteration of "deer".
But, the transliteration of “d’or” into Japanese is ディオーレ, which transcribes to English as “deore”. So, the origin of the word is “d’or” (gold).
Where have Shimano ever said that? I mean, while trying to work out what the name refers to, an outsider could understandably guess at that being what it meant... but did Shimano ever say that it meant that?
Wish I still had my one of these tees...
did Shimano ever say that it meant that?
It's how you write "d'or" in Japanese. It's not how you write "deer." It doesn't mean "deer" in Japanese and no Japanese person would think it does because that's not the transliteration of "deer" into Japanese, leaving aside that the Japanese word for deer is "shika". The deer thing is just some nonsense the Shimano marketing people made up after English speakers mistook the word.
And the deer head logo? If it's a marketing thing, then it's over 40 years old now.
So, nothing from Shimano... who say something different thols2? It is theirs.
Round and round... [ from 12 years ago ]
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/what-does-deore-mean/
And the deer head logo? If it’s a marketing thing, then it’s over 40 years old now.
The original Deore didn't use the deer-head marketing or logo. That came out with Deore XT, two years later. Shimano marketing had time to spot that English speakers confused "deore" and "deer" and then create a story that it was a Japanese transliteration of "deer".
its actually stated on Shimano’s own website that it means Deer.
Because that's the nonsense their marketing people came out with after seeing that English speakers confused the words. Japanese people don't use "deore" to mean "deer". It's just something that Shimano marketing made up. If you look at the origin of the Mitsubishi Starion, the marketing department insist it means "star orion", not a misspelling of "stallion" (Mitsubishi had horse derived model names like "Colt", and "Canter"). The reality is that they were embarrassed because they misspelled "stallion" as "starion", but they couldn't admit it publicly. Marketing people make up nonsense origins of product names whenever it is convenient for them. The deore-deer link is just the marketing department jumping on an opportunity.
Because that’s the nonsense their marketing people came out with after seeing that English speakers confused the words.
Deore always had the deer head from when it launched (Not on the mech admittedly).
EDIT Its possible they launched it and everyone got so confused almost immediately by the time they printed the 1980 catalogue they'd added the deer head.
Said 1980 catalogue for reference:
Deore always had the deer head from when it launched
If it did, it's not because "deore" means "deer" in Japanese. It's because the marketing department decided to use the similarity of the spellings. "Deore" is the Japanese transliteration of "d'or". The transliteration of "deer" would not have an "o" in it, and Japanese people call deer "shika", not "deore".
Jagermeister logo.
Whyte bikes versus Rich Energy logo.
Despite multiple incorrect sources on the internet, I believe 11 speed is 3.76mm cog spacing & 10 speed is 3.9mm. Interested to find out what linkglide/cues is.
So, Shimano just blatantly ripped off the Jagermeister deer head for their marketing because it had gold palm leaves under it (palme d'or), but used the similarity of "deer" and "deore" to avoid lawsuits?
Shimano just blatantly ripped off the Jagermeister deer head for their marketing because it had gold palm leaves under it (palme d’or)
It does look a fair bit like that version of the Jagermeister logo from 20 years after the Shimano use. Less like the contemporary logo...
There's some Fred Perry in that original Shimano one. They did seem to be trying to look and sound European. Your gold thing sounds plausible, but Shimano have a different story (and have done for over 40 years). If the gold name was ever a thing, they dropped it straight away... and I can't find any first hand reference to it.
I believe 11 speed is 3.76mm cog spacing
Shimano road cassettes, yes. Shimano MTB cassettes, no.
So, here's my theory. The Japanese head office called their new product "d'or", which they wrote in Japanese, then transliterated it into English as "Deore". They passed it onto the American marketing people with an explanation that it means "gold", as in "palme d'or". The Americans knew they couldn't piss off a major client by telling them that Americans don't by shit based on French art movies so they hit a bar for a brainstorming session. After finishing off a bottle or several of Jagermeister, someone spotted that the bottle had both gold palm leaves (palme d'or), plus a picture of an animal that sounds like deore. When the Japanese office called up the next day to check on progress, they had nothing to show except a picture of a deer on the label they'd lifted from a bottle of booze. The Japanese office liked it, and so history was made.
It’s how you write “d’or” in Japanese
Surely, if you were going to call it d'or you'd call it, you know, d'or, not (instead of using 金) borrow the French d'or translate that the katakana, then bastardise the borrowed French back into (not) English.
Don't get me wrong that deore doesn't mean deer, fine, I get that, but your explanation is not the more plausible one of the two.
Also starion being stallion sounds awfully like it's a racist urban myth based around the stereotypical pronunciation of "r" by the Japanese. You might be right but it's a bit too *s**** s***** to sit quite right.
(as an aside, isn't ィ in your katakana superfluous and making it read deiore? Isn't it デオーレ? I've not done any of this in about 20+ years mind so happy to be wrong)
Oh deer me.
Shimano have a different story
The problem with Shimano's story is that "deore" doesn't mean "deer" in Japanese, and deer aren't regarded as anything prestigious in Japan. It's a transliteration of "d'or", which is a prestigious foreign expression in Japan. The deer thing was just invented by marketing people, it's not the origin of the word (because there's no way a transliteration of "deer" into Japanese would have an "o" in it.)
Oh deer me.
Yeah, but if any thread was long overdue a derailleurment it has to be this one.
The deer thing was just invented by marketing people
The Deore name was also just invented by marketing people. How they arrived at the name is their story to tell. They could have post rationalised their meaning, for sure, or just be outright lying.
Still, it least it wasn't just a fishing name they copied across to cycling and then tried to create a new backstory for. HG ?
The deer thing was just invented by marketing people,
You know that's how all brand names happen don't you, rather than just ending up with a random SKU.
It's not like m6000 actually *means* anything.
Also starion being stallion sounds awfully like it’s a racist urban myth based around the stereotypical pronunciation of “r” by the Japanese. You might be right but it’s a bit too *s**** s***** to sit quite right.
Except that it's right.
Japanese companies give their products foreign names to make them seem prestigious. Nissan named their sportscar "Fairlady" in Japan based on "My Fair Lady" (it was called the 240Z in English speaking countries). They also had "Bluebird", "Cedric", and "Gloria". The Starion was released in Japan first, intended to be "Stallion", as in a grown up Colt. "Stalion" and "Starion" would be transcribed into Japanese exactly the same, so when it was back-transcribed for marketing brochures in Japan (to highlight the prestige of an English name), it was called Starion in Japan, which is indistinguishable from "stallion".
Then they decided to export it and got asked about what "starion" meant. They came up with a lame excuse that it meant "star orion". Everyone knew the reality, but it was too embarrassing for Mitsubishi to ever publicly admit.
Everyone knew the reality,
Everyone knew the sun orbited the earth for thousands of years.
Whilst it's not wrong because it's received wisdom it doesn't automatically make it right either.
See also it's named for d'or. Everyone knows its really named after deer.
They came up with a lame excuse that it meant “star orion”.
Did they? Really...? Nothing to do with Arion?
Did they? Really…? Nothing to do with Arion?
No racist trope? I'm out.
The Deore name was also just invented by marketing people.
Yes. Based on the Japanese transliteration of "d'or". It's not a transliteration of "deer". Japanese people call deer "shika". "Deore" isn't understood in Japanese as meaning "deer", that's a link that Shimano's marketing department invented.
No racist trope? I’m out.
"L" and "r" are minimal pairs in English, not in Japanese. “Stalion” and “Starion” would be transcribed into Japanese exactly the same. If you have to back transcribe it, it would be a very simple mistake to make, just like how many native English speakers misspell English words.
What does XT mean. Or DX, LX, or...
All made up names for made up groupos.
What does XT mean. Or DX, LX, or…
R7?
Or DX, LX
510
60
Hth
Sorry, I'm not being clear. I know what they are; I've still got parts from pretty much all the early 90s mtb groupos (thumbies and all), but the names are just made up, with some form of backronym at most. The only obvious one was XTR, as in XT-Racing or Race.
But my point is it doesn't matter either way; I was still sad to see the names disappear nonetheless. Much like if Deore ever fully disappeared, which makes very little sense like the name.
Sorry, I’m not being clear
You were. I just wasn't being helpful. 😉
This week has been a long one!
Anyway.....
Has anyone seen the any availability dates for the rear hubs with cartridge bearings.
Planning to build a new rear wheel and would love a Shimano hub with proper bearings!
@hightensionline I’m sure my 11sp XT cranks say Deore on them in small letters so it won’t go anywhere I don’t think.
Planning to build a new rear wheel and would love a Shimano hub with proper bearings!
I get people hate the cup and cone but they're what actually makes the hubs so reliable. If you swap them for cartridges will they actually be any good?
Assuming Shimano use standard sized cartridge bearings then yes they will be. Because spares will be readily available.
Assuming Shimano use standard sized cartridge bearings then yes they will be. Because spares will be readily available.
Unlike, of course, standard sized loose bearings.
What? You don't inspect them for wear?
