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Here’s the original story, scroll to the bottom for the latest update on Gee after his crash in practice at Rampage while trying a 60ft drop. It's the ...
By stwhannah
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Oh ****!
Blimey, not another big one.
Such a shame. Even though I’ve never been able to ride like that - a big inspiration.
Not nice. Fingers crossed for a very speedy recovery.
Is that Gee posting, or on his behalf?
After yesterday's video it seems it was inevitable sadly , just didn't expect it so soon . I'm all for progression to a point but at what cost for other people's entertainment 😞
but at what cost for other people’s entertainment
i dont think thats why they do it?
i dont think thats why they do it?
Exactly what i was going to reply. People like that do it "because it's there.." and "to see if we can"..
The entertainment side just pays some of the bills... but they'd still find a way
It’s still appropriate to ask “Is the bike OK?”, isn’t it?
It's OK, he'll just build a new one 😀
I wonder how long it'll be before the prediction from Benji (possibly!) in the STW podcast comes true?
Someone will end up paralysed or dead doing shit like this. Fair play to them if that's what they want but it's not like it's even interesting to watch when it goes right!
Exactly what i was going to reply. People like that do it “because it’s there..” and “to see if we can”..
The entertainment side just pays some of the bills… but they’d still find a way
Doubtful. If there wasn’t an industry built up around it, I doubt they’d be helicoptering to the top of mountains to build so many lines.
The “just send it, bro” culture in mountain biking isn’t healthy IMV.
Someone will end up paralysed or dead doing shit like this. Fair play to them if that’s what they want but it’s not like it’s even interesting to watch when it goes right!
Aven from the Tour De Gnar already has, at 18 years old.
Doubtful. If there wasn’t an industry built up around it, I doubt they’d be helicoptering to the top of mountains to build so many lines.
MTBers, snowboards, climbers, etc have been doing it for decades without the exposure from media there is now.. even before media they were doing stupid stuff... it's just stupider and bigger as tech moves on and makes it possible.
Remember these guys are riding stuff that they deem to be within their ability with a decent amount of safety factor, it's just it could go very wrong.
Look at the slopestyle riders, they are jumping stuff not even 1% of us would tackle, but they are doing it upside down spinning around
Freestyle MX riders doing similar 100's of feet gaps with 100's of KGs of bikes ready to break them
my point is, for a highly skilled rider, its probably statistically not much more dangerous than the average mountain bike rider doing something semi sketchy in the woods. Probably less risk of accident but with greater potential for injury.
anyway, that is some crazy drop and hoping Gee is OK
I think it’s naive to suggest that social media and sponsorship doesn’t indirectly encourage a greater level of risk taking.
Also, see Matt Jones latest video. He seems to think this stuff is much more sketchy than slopestyle. And he was riding the tamer ridge lines.
there is no “before media”, at least in any of our lifetimes. People doing wacky things have had a cameraman or reporter in-tow since forever.MTBers, snowboards, climbers, etc have been doing it for decades without the exposure from media there is now.. even before media they were doing stupid stuff
Someone will end up paralysed or dead doing shit like this
Paul Bas did in 2015...
https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/paul-basagoitia-any-one-of-us-facts
I know it's not our place to tell Gee to stop, but what if he knew we were all covering our eyes for his run?
MTBers, snowboards, climbers, etc have been doing it for decades without the exposure from media there is now.. even before media they were doing stupid stuff… it’s just stupider and bigger as tech moves on and makes it possible.
Yes they have, but it being publicised and financially enabled and rewarded makes it more common.
I also think it feeds down into the rest of the sport and encourages reckless risk taking at all levels.
Jeeeezas! Get well soon Gee.
I watched some footage of guys constructing the trails... climbing around the cliffs, and I thought... loose rock, big drops... you should really have a lid on and be roped up for that.
The big stuff like the canyon jumps... you can mitigate the risk there with giant trapeze circus nets. Yeah, it wont look so dangerous... because it's not so dangerous. And you can edit the nets out in post-production.
I understand super talented riders doing this is as risky as me riding a regular trail centre. But I never get more than a foot or two off the ground, and rarely exceed 20 mph. These guys are 100 feet out and doing motorcycle speeds... and those bigger numbers equate to bigger impacts, and bigger consequences.
I suppose my point is that this could easily be less risky.
From experience, risk takers are generally acutely aware of the implications of what they are doing, those that are not tend not to survive long.
Gee has been here before, I wish him all the best in his recovery.
I hope nobody else ends up getting hurt, I have to say I have been nervous watching some of the online content, but this is their choice, I am a believer that they should be able to make their own choices.
Many of the things these folk are doing could very easily end up in an unsurvivable accident, or worse an accident which leaves them permanantly non functional.
Crossing fingers won't help.
I also think, as has been mentioned, that some of the current MTB culture is unhealthy.
Having been dead on the table 3 times in the last year as a result of a bike (related) crash, for me it's apparent how relatively delicate we are, how easy it is to get into that corner and how quickly it can do wrong. The recovery process is rarely complete and takes a long time, I guess for some it's worth it, I'd hate to think they have to put themselves in that position.
People doing wacky things have had a cameraman or reporter in-tow since forever.
Rubbish.
I remember fairly recently seeing a film about Josh Bender. Filmer had to go looking in the mountains for him. He was out there on his own chucking his bike off stuff for his own enjoyment.
Maybe the ones you see are the ones with cameramen in-tow eh?
>> I understand super talented riders doing this is as risky as me riding a regular trail centre. But I never get more than a foot or two off the ground, and rarely exceed 20 mph
Not really, it's an energy thing, energy increases as the square of speed, so going much faster is (much x much) more dangerous.
You fall at 20 and you break your wrist, arm, entirely survivable injuries.
You stop abruptly at 40 and you are breaking lots of bones and rupturing organs, that may kill you.
At 50 statistically you have a 5-10% chance of surviving . . .
I've been there and done that at 40-50mph . . . it really wasn't pleasant, and anecdotally the statistics must be reasonable as I was told by the police, the surgical team, the ICU staff and anybody else who offered a view that I was lucky to survive and even luckier to walk out of hospital a few weeks later ;-).
I also think, as has been mentioned, that some of the current MTB culture is unhealthy.
This is my only objection to Rampage. and any slope contest, and big freeride videos.
The pro riders know what they are doing and understand the risks. They have done a thousand drops and gaps before and know how to judge it. They have more experienced riders to help them get the speed right. Everything is built and adjusted to expert specifications.
A twelve year old with a youtube account and a shovel has none of those things. When they decide they want to do their first gap jump but lack the ability to judge the angles and speeds nor have the knowledge to build a feature that will hold up.
Not to mention the next person who comes along a week later and finds a new feature in the woods. They've never seen it ridden. But hey, theres tyre marks on it so it must work right? hold my go pro and watch this...
Although I will admit I dont profess to "getting it". I'll watch rampage. I'll watch a Semenuk video. But thats it. On the other hand; I'll be glued to the DH world cup, Hardline etc. Racing the course provided, against the clock gets my interest as an armchair spectator, not judged tricks.
I remember years ago reading a piece about snowboarding and the athlete in that being very clear that people wouldn't be going as big as they were unless it was for magazines and videos. They'd be progressing, but the sheer size wouldn't be what it was, and the sheer size wasn't what was fun and was taking some of the joy out of it.
Tell you what has been about forever - this desire to wrap other people in cotton wool for their own good. Ooh you shouldn't do that, it's dangerous! **** off! All the more reason to do it!
Since a big corporation is paying these riders to do this and is making marketing mileage out of the event, how far does and should Red Bull's duty of care extend in the case of Rampage?
Tell you what has been about forever – this desire to wrap other people in cotton wool for their own good.
Absolutely, we've never sent other people down mines, out to build bridges, clean bird poo from nelson's column, clamber up a mountain in nothing but a wooly hat, race cars with fans on to make them sick to the road etc etc etc
The realisation that other people risking their lives solely for our benefit isn't necessarily a good thing is very much a recent development.
Tell you what has been about forever – this desire to wrap other people in cotton wool for their own good. Ooh you shouldn’t do that, it’s dangerous! **** off! All the more reason to do it!
Letting people do what they want, and incentivising people to do stupid stuff for their, and a companies, financial gain are very different things.
Also, see Matt Jones latest video. He seems to think this stuff is much more sketchy than slopestyle. And he was riding the tamer ridge lines.
Matt Jones made Kong look difficult and very sketchy and we know he's a very good rider. Deeks was walking sections. It also features in Fairlclough's video and he made it look easy. He looked to be placing the bike exactly where he wanted to with confidence so anything outside his intended line didn't matter.
Deeks was walking sections.
Without being harsh to Deaks as i think he's an awesome guy and i chat rubbish to him regularly, he only beats my lad by 2s in most races. I'd expect Fairclough to be a lot more precise/better/skilled than Deaks
Since a big corporation is paying these riders to do this and is making marketing mileage out of the event, how far does and should Red Bull’s duty of care extend in the case of Rampage?
This. The event is a marketing event for the sponsor. What happens if things go wrong in a life changing way? Will RB pick up the long term care costs
This. The event is a marketing event for the sponsor. What happens if things go wrong in a life changing way? Will RB pick up the long term care costs
You seem to be making a lot of assumptions that NO is the answer on here and on PB, however in truth none of us know what would/does/may happen in terms of aftercare, insurance, health cover etc. Unless you've got something to add, you're basically just assuming.
I have no doubt it's a marketing thing... However does that make it wrong ? Everything in sport is marketed in some way nowdays, that's how society works. You seem to have a bit of an agenda/dislike here from what i can see.
Not sure if it's just wishful thinking, assumptions, or actually based on evidence but Red Bull do seem to have a consistently pretty god reputation for looking after their sponsored athletes.
You seem to be making a lot of assumptions that NO is the answer on here and on PB, however in truth none of us know what would/does/may happen in terms of aftercare, insurance, health cover etc. Unless you’ve got something to add, you’re basically just assuming.
No assumptions, no idea is the truth, hence the question. I accept I have a cynical starting point but no idea.
Absolutely, we’ve never sent other people down mines, out to build bridges, clean bird poo from nelson’s column, clamber up a mountain in nothing but a wooly hat, race cars with fans on to make them sick to the road etc etc etc
And pretty much all of those activities have taken a look at accidents where people get hurt and changed something as a result. They haven't stopped people doing those things but they aren't getting the same injuries they used to get. Why is rampage any different?
Is it just me or does anyone else find it slightly disturbing that Gee has barely got to hospial before the crash is on social media for entertainment
Looking after folks is all well and good but you're duty bound to minimise and mitigate what danger you can, for the riding that's probably not that bad - helmets pads etc but I dread to think what the RAMS look like for the dig days.
No assumptions, no idea is the truth, hence the question. I accept I have a cynical starting point but no idea.
I guess the question is then. If we expect Red Bull to do so, so we expect British Cycling to give on-going support/repairs if a rider crashes in a BC sanctioned DH/XC/Enduro ? How about Malvern Classics, are we expecting those guys to support if someone gets hurt ? I think the answer is no... ?
And pretty much all of those activities have taken a look at accidents where people get hurt and changed something as a result. They haven’t stopped people doing those things but they aren’t getting the same injuries they used to get. Why is rampage any different?
Historic examples aside, I'm not suggesting rampage is any different, quite the opposite. My point is that "telling people not to do these things, it's their choice to do the risky stuff" is utter nonsense but it's not an age old phenomenon.
We let people do stuff until it becomes too risky (or costly depending on how cynic want to be) then we say enough.
Societies appetite for low risk is new.
Is it just me or does anyone else find it slightly disturbing that Gee has barely got to hospial before the crash is on social media for entertainment
I got the impression he posted it?
I got the impression he posted it?
Travis Pastrana once did a run of the A-line trail in Whistler, attempting to backflip every jump. He binned it about halfway down, no injuries or anything, but the video of the crash was online before he got to the bottom.
This. The event is a marketing event for the sponsor. What happens if things go wrong in a life changing way? Will RB pick up the long term care costs
You seem to be making a lot of assumptions that NO is the answer on here and on PB, however in truth none of us know what would/does/may happen in terms of aftercare, insurance, health cover etc. Unless you’ve got something to add, you’re basically just assuming.
I was at an event a couple of weeks ago where Matt Jones was talking about his Red Bull deal. He said that he injured himself almost as soon as he'd signed for them, before he'd even been able to wear the helmet iirc, but they paid all of his medical bills and put no pressure on him to start riding again. This may, of course, be him talking them up, etc, but I suspect not, and, based on what he said, I suspect that they might take their obligations to their athletes seriously.
: /
not the news anyone wants to hear ..
I think it’s naive to suggest that social media and sponsorship doesn’t indirectly encourage a greater level of risk taking.
I watched an interesting docu on Uli Steck earlier this week that seems relevant, about how a climber at the absolute upper limits of solo speed mountaineering progressed and handled the risks and media that went with it all.
2 good points made were, first that it's simply a matter of statistics at that level - keep pushing and in time you will fall and most likely you'll die.
The second point was strong - if you 'do it for your own reasons' (as some say, that's not a comment or point related to Gee) then why put it on social media or do it for sponsors? If it's truly for your own reasons you just get on and do it and reflect in private. If it's sponsored then there has to be an element of pressure to keep going or maintain your rep, butting up against that point about statistics.
Sadly Steck fell and died in the end and even though I doubt from climber heaven he has any regrets in his life, I doubt he wanted it to end that way? His main rival in that bigger-faster arena seems to have accepted second place in the eyes of some and backed off. It's a fascinating topic. No-one goes into things like this expecting a bad outcome, but if it wasn't a possibility the whole scene wouldn't be what it is. The 'pushing your limits' and progression thing has quite different risks and rewards in different areas of riding.
The second point was strong – if you ‘do it for your own reasons’ then why put it on social media or do it for sponsors? If it’s truly for your own reasons you just get on and do it and reflect in private.
Funds.... you can't do things in far away places with lots of organisation without funding from someone.
^ You can, plenty do? You might just do less of it or not be present in the big events which isn't compatible with being a 'pro' so we're back to that point on rep, competition etc?
Just to be clear I'm not being critical here, just the point about it being a marketing industry and a job for some top riders, climbers etc and that must come with other pressures beyond the actual sport. Fair dues to them handling all that.
They haven’t stopped people doing those things but they aren’t getting the same injuries they used to get. Why is rampage any different?
Go watch some of the earlier Rampages. (Also remember they let Strait ride when he was 17, and he won, I'm sure that would upset some people).
A couple of days of individual digging, no dig teams, allowed a minimal number of sandbags. High winds during runs. People riding in jeans and wife beaters.
The terrain and the runs have changed. Yes everything has gone bigger, but is it truly more of a danger?
(more dangerous than a newbie going down hully gully - yes; more dangerous than an early 2000's rampage - probably not)
I remember years ago reading a piece about snowboarding and the athlete in that being very clear that people wouldn’t be going as big as they were unless it was for magazines and videos.
I have, on occasion, been on the slopes with one of the big names in winter sports (X-games finalist and i think he was/is on the redbull roster) he went to school with a friend of mine, so if we're at the same resort at the same time, he's there for some slope time and a few beers.
His *thing* when we've been out has always been about precision, repeatability, complexity and fun. So he'll happily spend a morning going up and down the same half dozen runs hitting the same half dozen features (natural or otherwise) doing more and more complex tricks, flips and suchlike. I've never seen him more than 2m off the ground, except on TV.
TBH, my friend was getting bigger, and more stupidly, airborne. With predictable results.
Is there a point where flying through air in a downward direction over a long enough distance that your speed would increase significantly that it might become too fast to land and carry on?
So for (bad) example: you approach the jump at 15mph, fly 100ft through the air at a 60° downward angle, would your velocity increase to 30mph by which point landing would be difficult?
The relationship between event sponsor, bike etc manufacturer and sponsor and athlete does seem quite warped, though you could argue it's just an extension of the one that exists in DH etc.
An event sponsor with plenty of cash throws a bit of it at facilitating an event. Bike manufacturer does the same to a lesser extent - less affluent and less money thrown. Athlete who is young, dumb and full of cum.... and comparatively poor provides the money maker moment, for comparatively little financial reward. All the physical risk is entirely with the young, poor (comparatively) talent; all the brand enhancement is showered on the people sitting on their arses.
I guess that is effectively the entire model for professional sport and it's sponsors. But for me there is a line where the risk for one and the reward for the other breaks an ethic elastic limit. For me Rampage is probably the wrong side of the line.
Athlete who is young, dumb and full of cum…. and comparatively poor provides the money maker moment, for comparatively little financial reward. All the physical risk is entirely with the young, poor (comparatively) talent; all the brand enhancement is showered on the people sitting on their arses.
The payoff is if you make it though...
Semenuk estimated to earn $1million a year. (Also for comparison Vergier estimated at $300-500,000/year, Neff's net worth estimated at $3.9 million, Mads Pedersen about $1mill/year)
Trek executives: "The average Trek Bicycle Corporation executive compensation is $227,210 a year.The median estimated compensation for executives at Trek Bicycle Corporation including base salary and bonus is $230,802, or $110 per hour. At Trek Bicycle Corporation, the most compensated executive makes $700,000, annually, and the lowest compensated makes $57,000"
would your velocity increase to 30mph by which point landing would be difficult?
It'll depend mostly on your angle of approach to the ground - there's a reason you don't land a jet like a helicopter but the jet still lands fine.
Of course if you put a Tredmill on the lip, the bike might never takeoff
How big a drop would it take to get 80kg to terminal velocity? I think there’s some GCSE maths to work this out, but it’s been too long
Is it just me or does anyone else find it slightly disturbing that Gee has barely got to hospial before the crash is on social media for entertainment
Disturbing? No, of course not. It’s the whole reason the event exists. RedBull must be so happy the event has picked up so much internet engagement already, days before the main event. Sure, some MTBers will marvel at the skills, but outside of that tiny world everybody else watches for the crashes.
The average Trek Bicycle Corporation executive compensation is $227,210 a year.
Errrr, average trek executive might be able to swing 30+ years of that sort of wage, plus inflation (and 15 years before getting good money)
Average trek talent will be in, and promptly out, of the big money in ~5 years. If they are lucky, and they win lots, and don't get injured, they might manage 10, outliers might still be racing and making good money after 15.
Then they have to try and get other employment/move into management/become an ambassador etc
How big a drop would it take to get 80kg to terminal velocity? I think there’s some GCSE maths to work this out, but it’s been too long
"terminal velocity" is the speed where you are falling at a constant speed becuase the force of gravity on you is equal to the resistance of the air (which increases at higher speed). Air resistance is very much beyond GCSE maths.
if you meant the speed which is fatal to the brain or will break bones, remember its not the speed, its the acceleraation/deceleration. A combination of a sloped landing, suspension and muscles decrease this.
Last year I remember Cathro saying that he wasn't quite at race fitness, and that landing one of the drops was like jumping into a pressup. His arms couldnt take it and he whacked the stem with his chest.
Athlete who is young, dumb and full of cum
Gee Atherton is 38. When do you think he'll grow up 😉
When do you think he’ll grow up
Not yet 🙂
Gee Atherton is 38. When do you think he’ll grow up 😉
At the rate he's going you'd be forgiven for thinking he has no intention to.
I just used a terminal velocity website to approximate a speed of 200km/h, or 54 m/s.
Given gravitational acceleration at 9.8 m/s/s, let's call it 10 then 5.4 seconds of freefall in a prone position to reach terminal velocity.
I then Googled how long it takes for a skydiver to reach terminal velocity and once source says about 5 seconds so lets go with that. Therefore lets go with 5 seconds, although the bike adds a good bit of drag.
From Wikipedia, d = 1/2 gt^2
t from above is 5.
d = 1/2 *9.8 * 25 = 122.5 meters, or 400 feet. I saw Gee's drop quoted at 60 feet.
As above, it's the deceleration that gets you though! And I wrecked myself on a 6 foot drop. Get well soon Gee!
So with GCSE maths and Newtons Laws (and google), you’re getting to 45mph in 2 secs, at the end of a 20m drop, which I think was what Matt Jones measured it at. 54mph and 3 secs for a 30m drop. So you’d want to decelerate fairly slowly.
And yes air resistance would be beyond my maths, but google says 12 secs to get to 120mph for a skydiver, belly to earth
Ski jumpers jump 100m+ and land on their feet with no added suspension.
The angle of the landing surface matters and there's no real limit to the speed/distance you can drop if it's perfectly engineered to match your trajectory (and pull you out of it gradually). But if you come off then you're tumbling at high speed...
If you're travelling much faster than your wheels are rotating there's liable to be a bit of a skid on touchdown which might be hard to handle. Ski-map jumpers have lateral stability built-in through their two feet (skis) but a bike needs a bit of steerage.
Good to know I’m not the only one wasting work time on random science!
That's 100m+ horizontal though - the vertical, albeit considerable, is less.
As you say though, it's all about the transition.
Good to know I’m not the only one wasting work time on random science!
Well none of us are wasting it on work
Gee Atherton is 38. When do you think he’ll grow up
You're asking this here where we're mostly overgrown schoolboys dicking around on bikes! My irony meter is close to breaking 😀
/blockquote>
That is crazy. Heal up.
Lots of people passing judgment on here. Respect the man.
@thepurist agreed, see also Group B rallying, Formula 1 and even the pro-cycling peloton.
All of which have continued despite being made more safe.
Some interesting parallels between this thread and this podcast conversation about risk/reward and potential for injury. from here and from 1:18 about risk, backflips and BMX vert riders. Martyn Ashton injured himself permanently on a comparatively tiny skate park jump doing a trick he'd done thousands of times. I've had at least one neck-jarring impact from what would otherwise have been a standard tumble. Martyn's right, we're all an unfortunate accident away from something lifechanging.
And a week or so later, Olly's out digging in the desert for one of his best mates. Must be weighing heavily, between the laughs and the callouses.
Really good interview, especially for anyone who grew up reading MBUK.
The angle of the landing surface matters and there’s no real limit to the speed/distance you can drop if it’s perfectly engineered to match your trajectory (and pull you out of it gradually). But if you come off then you’re tumbling at high speed…
In this instance it looks like he's overcooked it and landed near the bottom. It's pretty horrific. I hope all is well.
The payoff is if you make it though…
Semenuk estimated to earn $1million a year. (Also for comparison Vergier estimated at $300-500,000/year, Neff’s net worth estimated at $3.9 million, Mads Pedersen about $1mill/year)
I would love to know how that was worked out and how accurate it is
Martyn Ashton injured himself permanently on a comparatively tiny skate park jump doing a trick he’d done thousands of times.
Didn’t he fall from 3 meters onto something? Not really tiny jump..
Yeah, 3 metres from a frame onto the floor. Rotational injury to his spine as he hit the deck…