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We all know that the bike industry has been a very male dominated arena, and while that's changing, progress remains slow. Projects and funding aimed ...
By stwhannah
Get the full story here:
This is a good thing.
Both the project itself and STW for using it's platform to share the news.
I agree with Matt ^^
Also, I had no idea about the use of the asterisk in trans* so took the chance to look it up. It's nice to learn.
It's a yes from me.
Good job.
I also did not know about the asterix, noted.
This is a good thing.
Both the project itself and STW for using it’s platform to share the news.
100% agree here, good work all round.
This is great, I was showing a young lady at work who is pretty shy and falls under LGBT and this would have been good for her. She had a bad experience at a local bike shop once and was reluctant to go back to them and asked if I could show her some basic maintenance skills so she could maintain her bike herself. Even gave her some spare tools to help her out and now she's confident in most of the basic stuff to keep her own bike going.
Thank you for the supportive comments here. Meanwhile on Facebook, it's clear how far the riding community has yet to come.
Yes the knuckle draggers are out in force on FB 😒
Meanwhile on Facebook, it’s clear how far the riding community has yet to come.
I was just about to comment on the FB comments.
This is a great initiative; well done to them and to STW for promoting it.
Awesome article, thanks for this Hannah.
I reported some of the comments on Facebook but they've found that they 'don't go against their community standards'. I suppose that tells us all we need to know about Facebook.
Good article, thank you for promoting it.
This is great - FB is a sad place at the moment....
Ditto the above - great initiative and saddened to see the FB responses. Roll on more inclusivity!
Serious Q - Given that STW Towers decided to block links to the Daily Mail, because they felt that it's editorial policies were too much at odds with their corporate stance/culture, have they thought about pulling their Facebook presence, given that it's been shown many times to not really GAF about what people post, and the comments under this article are just another example?
Spoken as a hypocrite who checks FB regularly, obviously.
Well it was nice while it lasted.
If you had read the article, even glanced at it... You'd maybe see why you are so very wrong?
Classy first post.
Appropriate user name...
Is it time for a “real name” policy on this forum? Or some other way of ensuring genuine users can chat without the fresh account troll for laughs pollution?
I just think that discrimination is wrong.
Could I hazard a guess that you would also like to tell us that "All Live Matter".
Well, it was nice while it lasted before it went the usual way down the STW drain.
@that-looks-sketchy. They offer courses for everyone (it’s just the are talking about the women’s etc one here), thus not discriminating.
Back under your bridge.
Interesting Josh, so you appear to argue that discrimination on the basis of one’s gender or allocated skin colour is a positive move
Are you suggesting scholarships are discriminating to wealthy people?
The funding is to remove a barrier for a community that is underrepresented. Is there anything preventing you taking a training course in bike maintenance?
Sketchy will be one of the FB-ers who decided spouting their nonsensical rubbish should not be restricted to FB...
I think that a person should be judged on the quality of their character
I’m certainly judging you on the quality of yours 😂
Sure thing bigot. You believe discrimination is good and I think it's evil. You are entitled to believe that discrimination is good. That's the beauty of free speech. I'll not convince you that equality matters,it's clear. It'simpossible to reason with the unreasonable...Chamberlain found that out the hard way. Discriminate and break the law as you will,,,
Can we all collectively agree to ignore that? ^ it will get bored and go away eventually
I'll try once more sketchy.
This is not negative exclusion of anyone. It is the positive inclusion of a section of society that is often missing,not just in the shops but it general cycling the numbers are still very very white male. I have female friends and colleagues who have felt uncomfortable in bikes shops before while the shop keeper kept answering their questions to the male companion. Hell I've had to point out it wasn't me buying the bloody bike and they should redirect their attention.
You are ofcourse entirely correct that people should be judged on their skills and abilities.
However if we just do that from now on How do you break down the engrained issues, if every shop is majority men how to you promote more women applying?
Ofcourse I might be totally off message. As someone who has a penis and feels like someone who has a penis and is attracted to people with vaginas that so far have felt that is their identity all these issues I have to open my ears to because I can only learn from others. I've never felt that I shouldn't strive for what I want and I know sometimes competitors may get an external edge not available to me but so what? It's not a personal attack on me it's not a personal attack on people who look like me or feel like I do?
I think it's ace, i think single-track is great and I believe it's better for it's mix of contributors than most magazines. I know nothing about any of their gender identies or sexual preferences it's just a better feeling place than most and I want that everywhere.
One thing I do know about single-track employees. Never be behind Charlie in a morning queue for the portaloos at a single speed UK we vent.
Edit: that last post is a belter, I knew I was wasting my time typing that, ah well.
Came here to say how utterly clueless and moronic those facebookers are who think promoting events for minorities is discrimination. And it seems to be their one unifying complaint that makes them puff up their feathers and feel all righteous!
Then I scrolled up. Brilliant.
This is not negative exclusion of anyone. It is the positive inclusion of a section of society that is often missing
Brilliantly put.
Well said jv
Thank you for the supportive comments here. Meanwhile on Facebook, it’s clear how far the riding community has yet to come.
Facebook has become a proper cesspool. I wouldn't pay attention to owt that goes on there.
Facebook has become a proper cesspool. I wouldn’t pay attention to owt that goes on there.
Sadly not just on Facebook, from reports at a trans and intersex workshop I attended through work yesterday are anything to go by.
The silent majority need to speak up more and slap down those still living in the dark ages, though that may be doing a disservice to the dark ages.
Discrimination on the basis of gender identity is illegal in the UK. How can this particular discrimination be justified in law? Why can certain identities be discriminated against. I believe that this project is unlawful.
Another way to look at it is this scheme redresses existing discrimination, lots of groups are under represented in cycling and it's related industries, put off (not unreasonably) by a somewhat male dominated culture. Are you going to deny that?
As a straight, white, middle-aged, middle class individual I don't feel discriminated against, I very much doubt I would have trouble accessing any training for a role in the cycling industry or find my gender identity any sort of barrier to employment or participation, I already enjoy a defacto, discriminatory advantage in almost all areas of life.
Those who believe in actual equality look for ways to help raise everyone up to the same rights and privileges that often means looking for the underrepresented groups and making additional efforts to include and motivate them, not lazily defend an already skewed status quo with the pretense that we already enjoy "equal opportunity" when that is patently not true.
So gutted to see the response to this on FB. Such a different tone to the vast majority of forum commenters.
Over the last year I've spent a fair bit of time working on engagement projects with 'diverse' groups. It's been amazing and eye opening.
The best rebuttal I can think of to people that just can't seem to comprehend that this isn't discrimination, it's about seeking equity is to use a cartoon.
The approach is great. The title of the article (and others I’ve seen) is poor.
I’d imagine that many aren’t reading the article before commenting.
The title would have you believe that it’s just offering a boon to one disenfranchised group while excluding others. In reality, the paid-for-training is only a tiny fraction of what the approach is trying to do. It’s that bit that’s the most important, but the title focuses on the funding and the group, not in any way how it means to address the inequality in a systematic way.
We’ve had similar problems in Enginnering where women are under-represented. We promote women to management positions, to achieve equality at a career level, but never leverage those women and their achievements to encourage more women into aerospace, except within the company and by that point it’s too late, people made their choices a long time ago and women in engineering is still 10% (at most) of the workforce.
They need to be outside, engaged with universities (schools really) to encourage others by example. The above approach does exactly this. The exception in aerospace which proves the point was/is Grazzia Vittadini - she’s a great example of this. Highly skilled, highly competent, a great communicator and a great promoter.
Similarly we had online harrasment when we advertised 7 trainee Jobs for under 25s, targeted at under represented groups who work in outdoor education.
We too were told our (government funded) scheme was illegal under age discrimination and race discrimination.
I couldn't care less - we've the most amazing team on that project now, who have well earned the job, and I expect some of them will go on to continue to alter the near dominance of white, male, straight and Christian heritage workers in the outdoor industry.
STW and projects like this, keep it up and ignore the negativity.
This is not negative exclusion of anyone. It is the positive inclusion of a section of society that is often missing
Well said Josh. It should be this hard though should it. But. Idiots will be idiots.
Sadly not just on Facebook
Yes, unfortunately some take reading shit like this online as validation for such views and then spout it out of their mouths in conversation.
It seems to me this is just a case of helping out people who need it - a good thing, in my view. What next, will retirement homes be classed as ageist?
As @matt_outandabout says, good on STW for reporting on this. It's always refreshing to hear some good news.
Why is this not a case of:
Pay for course
Learn
Apply for job
What am I missing?
@joshvegas & @reeksy spot on. @daffy totally agree, we (company I work for) love to "celebrate" diversity and inclusion internally but I have no idea what we actually do outside of the company. We make a lot of noise but do very little IMO.
Why is this not a case of:
Pay for course
Learn
Apply for jobWhat am I missing?
Because if you are the only person "like you" in a room, course, situation, whatever it can be really intimidating and put you off.
What am I missing?
The bit where you don’t get offered the job due to bias, either unconscious or conscious.
The idea is, as I understand it, to provide funding to train the underrepresented groups indentified. By training them they a. Encourage a more inclusive industry. And b. Feed the need for tran* women and non binary staff to run the women, non binary and trans* workshops the coop provide.
So what benefits would the coop get from training people who don't fit these definitions if they can't then be placed in the workshops the coop runs.
So just to be clear. I don't think you've quite grasped what they are trying to do. Train some people to run workshops for people who may feel excluded in normal conditions. Hopefully then gaining more confidence as numbers grow.
More people on bikes is good no?
I don’t think you’ve quite grasped what they are trying to do.
Perhaps because they haven't expressed it succinctly, and regardless of the ends it doesn't mean the means are either logical or appropriate necessarily?
Behind the cosy face of 'improving' representation, there are some extremely dodgy ideas lurking, but that goes for all this stuff.
I only asked that question seeking to expose these dodgy ideas, hence I probably won't get a straight answer because my framing was unflattering.
Lifted straight from the link on the first post.
These newly qualified mechanics will then form the backbone of Broken Spoke’s work with women, trans* and non-binary folk; supporting Beryl’s Night (their free monthly workshop sessions for women, trans* and non-binary folk), engaging in the other community programmes in our workshop, and running outreach with the wider community in Oxford.
How much more succinctly can they put it?
What “dodgy ideas” ?
Behind the cosy face of ‘improving’ representation, there are some extremely dodgy ideas lurking, but that goes for all this stuff.
Go on, I'll bite, what extremely dodgy ideas are lurking behind "all this stuff"?
How much more succinctly can they put it?
All that's being said there is that in order to discriminate they must discriminate. Hardly getting to the bottom of things.
Is that it?
Go on, I’ll bite, what extremely dodgy ideas are lurking behind “all this stuff”?
Some dodgy post-modern ideas concerning the nature of power, knowledge and reality if you're interested. That men (especially white men) form an oppressor class thanks to their place in the symbolic apparatus of cultural hegemony.
You read that into this scheme? It is actively trying to reach out to people... it is not blaming anyone for the current lack of diversity, it is just trying to do something about it. Would you rather sit back and argue about why nothing needs to be done about it? Carry on...
The dangers of scoffing_too_much_cake are plain to see...
Some dodgy post-modern ideas concerning the nature of power, knowledge and reality if you’re interested. That men (especially white men) form an oppressor class thanks to their place in the symbolic apparatus of cultural hegemony.
Alternatively, it's just a way to get representation up amongst a user group that is almost invisibly none existent?
Here's a real-life recent example, our cycling club set up a regular women's ride a few years ago, and yes, a handful of grumpy old farts objected that they were excluded from them. There was and never had been any discrimination or exclusion on any club rides in the past yet despite that IIRC the gender split was something like 200:2 in the club. A few years on and the women's ride is as big and sometimes bigger than the equivalent speed men's club run, there's a women's TTT team and it undoubtedly contributed to hosting the IIRC largest-ever women's field at the national Hillclimb championships.
It's probably fair to say without the hard work of a handful of unsung heroes behind the scenes, and occasionally very vocally in front of them, that wouldn't have happened and we'd have been stuck in the same status quo as most cycling clubs.
*they actually weren't, they were just advertised as being lead by women, for women. But that was enough to send these anti-social-justice-warrior-social-justice-warriors into a spin. In fact there's often a handful of male hangers on as it's generally seen as the more social/non-dropping/shorter ride as well.
What is it that makes people respond negatively like this? "How dare they single out trans* and non-binary people for inclusion and exclude middle-aged white males like myself, who've never had any chances or opportunities in life?"..."This could've been the best chance for me to make something of myself, but they will only allow people who don't even have a proper gender to do this course! How dare they?!". I'm baffled and I'd love to know.
In my own experience, women are put off club runs dominated by men because the rides are faster and more competitive.
From a different point of view, before cycling became bourgeois, riding a bike was something working-class people did because they were poor and it was generally as a means to get to work and back. Cycling was a low-status activity and many people still think like that. Mechanical skills were learning out of necessity and acquired as general 'blue collar' skills.
IIRC the article quotes some anecdotes about women having trouble with male mechanics as if that proves some general point. Well, who hasn't!?
@hdesperatebicycle
Because the next step is to exclude white men from jobs and other resources.
You really think so? Holy shit.
You really think so? Holy shit.
Why do you think that is such a leap?
The logic of discrimination to 'improve' diversity is being accepted.
The day there are no jobs for "white men" in cycling might be a little way off, looking at how things look now. If we could get even close to half way there, and then give up, that'll do me.
In my own experience
Apologies didn't realize we were all mansplaining this to you.
Why are you so angry about a course being run for your benefit?
You mean why am I worried about lending support to a logic of discrimination against people like me?
I say in my own experiences because I've heard women moan about group rides dominated by men going too fast. When paces pick up it is rarely women who need to 'compete' to prove themselves too.
Because the next step is to exclude white men from jobs and other resources.
This isn't the problem. It's that some white men won't be a shoe-in for jobs they normally would've been, because another demographic now has a fair chance.
The type of white man whining about this tends to be the one scared of the level playing field.
Here's a question. Why is it a problem per se that most cyclists we see are white and/or male? Who is this harming?
Sorry, but this is just too dull to bother with on a Saturday night in 2021. Go and enjoy what’s left of your weekend. You don’t have to catch up with the changing world, just stay in the 1970s, we’re all quite happy with you doing that.
Why is it a problem per se that most cyclists we see are white and/or male? Who is this harming?
I’ve heard women moan about group rides dominated by men
You're so close to self-awareness.
Here’s a question. Why is it a problem per se that most cyclists we see are white and/or male? Who is this harming?
All the women, overweight and unfit people of both sexes, BAME riders and, indeed, quite a few LGBT people who used to come out on the social rides I organised because they felt so intimidated by clubs dominated by fast white men that they felt they'd never fit in and didn't dare try.
And because I gave them a safe space to start their cycling experience, and was connected to a club that was willing to offer them the next step up, there's now a club with much higher female representation than the BC average (but still nowhere near high enough), has got an openly gay rider smashing it up at regional and national races, has riders who've turned round their type 2 diabetes diagnosis, and reduced their asthma medication and dozens of other success stories.
All because someone made an effort to provide a route for them to try cycling, to grow to love cycling, and to develop the confidence and belief that they could fit into a cycle club still mainly white and male.
And I'm really pleased for you that you've never had to deal with those real and perceived barriers. But don't you dare look down your nose at the people who have to overcome them, or those that offer them the support and routes to do so.
Can I ask if the reverse was true?
What if your chosen job had 247:1 ratio of people unlike you : you.
What it every time you walked into a room you were the only one like you in that room?
What if the recruitment, terms, conditions and culture of that job made it harder for you, the one out of 247?
What if the users of the service also had ingrained concern about you working there, and so put in 5x more complaints and gossiped about you (and not in a nice way?).
Would you feel like a bit of extra support, training for your colleagues and effort to change culture was worthwhile?
@i_scoff_cake
As a white woman, most cyclists being white men harms me. Or harmed me because I don't ride anymore. But when I did, I usually rode on my own.
That's because the only other option was an organised group ride where someone leads and that never really appealed to me.
In one of the groups I tried, the guys were much fitter, faster, more experienced and more competitive than me. And they were always going to be to some extent at least. They ended up letting me know that I wasn't good enough to ride with them and fair enough, I wasn't. I also wasn't having much fun being at the back of the group and just before I would reach the summit of the hill where they were all waiting, they would ride off just before I got there. It wasn't much fun for them waiting either.
So I started going on my own.
This meant I didn't progress as much as I could have done which I sometimes feel a bit sad about.
It also meant when I went on mtb holidays I went on my own. I had one brilliant experience with The White Room. Luckily one other woman who had come with her bf was there too and we rode together all week. One of the men couldn't understand how I had come on my own and didn't have any riding friends and called me Billy No Mates all week. The following year I went on a trip with another company and it was a total disaster. The guys were head and shoulders above me in terms of riding ability and I actually missed the last two days riding as it was no fun at all.
I did meet one guy just out on the trails in the UK and we rode together some times. But then he went to Morzine and I would have loved to have gone too but he didn't invite me because it was a "lads' holiday".
And my friend at the time started riding but she thought she could have a skinful the night before and be good for a day's riding.
I can't say any of the above is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. I can't say I didn't enjoy riding on my own because I did. But it would have been nice to have a few more people to go with at times. What it did mean though is that i was always something of an outsider in the sport.
I'm sure if I'd have lived somewhere more mtb-y I would have found riding companions but I lived in London at the time and rode in the Surrey Hills mostly and I really struggled to find anyone who was committed (as I was then) but also at a similar level.
As I said, I'm a white woman. Although not strictly part of a minority group, being a woman often feels like that, but I can only imagine how excluded other minorities can sometimes feel. Perhaps you could try to do the same.
All the women, overweight and unfit people of both sexes, BAME riders and, indeed, quite a few LGBT people who used to come out on the social rides I organised because they felt so intimidated by clubs dominated by fast white men that they felt they’d never fit in and didn’t dare try.
The problem is that you're conflating competitive spirit and fitness with identity.
Presumably, BAME or gay people don't ever want to ride fast, for example? Only those nasty white men? And all white men are ultra-fit and competative?
What if your chosen job had 247:1 ratio of people unlike you : you.
There is only one me at work. The ultimate minority is one.
You’re so close to self-awareness.
It's got nothing to do with gender identity, however, but fitness, as I said.
You're ducking the question.
What if your industry meant you were the only white male in the room, of 247?
What if your industry meant you were the only white male in the room, of 247?
That sounds like some occasions when I worked in West Africa.
It is about fitness to some extent but there are barriers in place to some people becoming fit or, in the case of this scheme, knowledgeable/competent and any initiative that can help with these has to be a good thing.
Try stop being so defensive and try using a bit of empathy.
OMG, I'm off to get me some cake... You don't seem to be able to follow the first rule.
That sounds like some occasions when I worked in West Africa.
And (making an assumption about your ethnicity based on your previous comments) were there places you wouldn't have ridden a bike through because it might have been perceived as dangerous to you to be the odd one out?
That sounds like some occasions when I worked in West Africa.
And so how did you feel?
And how would you feel if that was here in the UK?
I'll tell you why I ask - one of my colleagues works in early years.
We stood in a room of all the early years educators in his local authority - and we were there only two men.
He deals with all I laid out regularly.
I'm interested if you think we should encourage more men into early years? There's great evidence that there is huge benefit to children to have more men involved in thier early education.
But by your thoughts we should not. No encouragement or support is needed. No change in culture. No actively working to improve/change things. It's just how it is, yeah?
That sounds like some occasions when I worked in West Africa.
How many social clubs did you join?
Sounds immoral to me.
To give one group help that you don't offer to another is unfair. End.
Positive discrimination is immoral.