More people would get into 'Wild Biking' (brilliant, btw) if the media reviewed and promoted cheaper bikes.
Not just once a year, but all the time.
MBUK used to do it when I was looking for my first proper MTB, after years of bodging road bikes and old tourers.
Nowadays, if someone curious Googles Mountain Biking, they'll come across a place like this, which has made a conscious decision not to represent those without large amounts of cash.
The analogy between skiing and mtbiking is interesting. Most of the people I ski with are mtbikers and quite a few of the mtbikers I ride with either ski or snowboard too.
Getting women into mtbiking has always been a tough one. Women in general don't like getting muddy, wet and cold. They see it as hard work and let's face it one does have to have a pretty high level of fitness to ride up some rocky trails (some continuously for some way). Also it's an expensive sport, I've only managed to enjoy this sport because my bikes have been second hand, as are all the components. Also, yes it does come across as slightly dangerous. Even paying for a skills course can be an expensive day (worth the money).
As mentioned above it depends on where your local trails are as to how you are perceived as an mtber. The locals around here (Marple) are used to seeing mtbers on the many bridleways and trails and in the main everyone gets on, we're a friendly bunch and always say hello. There are a higher proportion of women and families that enjoy the 'off road cycling' routes too, maybe because we are fairly close to the large urban population of Stockport.
I’m not sure if anyone follows Paul the Punter on YouTube, but he just posted a video explaining why he quit mountain biking completely,
Oh my days. That is the most boring video I have [ not really] seen in a long time. Does he actually get to the point and tell us why he quit,?
I kept jumping forwards but just kept getting " so this video is about why I quit" over and over again without actually telling us
MTB is a broad church, maybe it's less about 'branding' and more about promoting the multitude of opportunities? I think that wild cycling/bimbling may have some legs. I suspect there are many more people who ride on dirt but don't consider themselves a mountain biker.
We talk a lot about diversity and accessibility and judge all the types of filthy wheels by what we see overall, maybe if we were to be a little more curious about the data it might show us that some 'disciplines' are better than others and where to focus efforts rather than it be a comment often accompanied with a wave of the hand and little else.
Wild Biking’ (brilliant, btw)
Well, Fin and Rob will chuffed as **** if this pans out their website will get stacks of hits.
@thegeneralist, I think I watched one of his videos way back and was instantly put off. Fella is generally dull.
There's a bit of a disconnect here which is hard to reconcile...
On the one hand, danger is sexy and sex sells; the reason the majority of media coverage is of the more extreme (and talented) end of the sport is because it's exceptional; it stands out as a spectacle of human achievement, driving not only the sport forward, but a wider understanding of the abilities of our species, as opposed to the somewhat less sexy image of bimblers doddering through the wilderness.
At the other end of the scale, we have a maturing sport, which has earned it's place in society and now wants to give back... much like a Jehovah's Witness who seeks to enlighten others, and whilst we can offer spiritual growth and salvation, there are also more tangible physical benefits.
Now the physical realm is where the disconnect begins; on the one hand, regular indulgence in MTB offers improved fitness, along with a wealth of feel good gubbins bundled in for free... however, it does also present the problem of injury, which is a very real risk (as I write this, though I personally relish the more dangerous side of the sport, I am currently more of a bimbler due to an injury sustained the best part of 4 months ago... however, I'll keep plugging away at my daily exercises so that I can once again enjoy the sweet taste of danger), no doubt borne out by data held by the health services surrounding popular MTB destinations.
The real problem here is that in order to truly give back to the community, MTB needs to work with authorities so as to secure grants and funding, which in turn, means that sexy danger goes out the window and it's time to delve deep into policy documents and find the keywords reflecting tangible benefits to society.
Seems that the drive towards trail associations and legitimacy is a good thing in terms of creating a more significant presence in terms of leveraging access laws and the like, but at this stage, it is still fraught with many obstacles; I have personally put a substantial amount of time and effort into bringing a trail association into being, but am now having 2nd thoughts due to my neighboring trail association's experiences with NRW... whilst training and qualifications for guiding and coaching are already well established, there is a perceived skills gap in terms of trail building and monitoring... in terms of off piste trails, we're still very much at the stage where forgiveness is easier that permission.
Overall though, I'd say there's been huge advances in the sport over the last 10 years; there is far more facilities, be that trail centres, bike parks, pump tracks or unofficial trails than ever before and that trend looks set to continue; one of the main obstacles which we face is a geographic one; all too often the best terrain is some way from population centres, which reduces the number of people likely to take an interest.
Just come off a 3 day ‘dig’ with Ride Bristol updating a very popular trail in a park next to the city.
I was there with my son yesterday.
So, if it wasn't you I was speaking to - thanks!
spot on
edit this was a reply to " Another simile would be to think of bridleway bimblers like me see their bikes like a landrover – a tool for getting into the countryside and the gnarly nutters its more like a rally car – a tool to enjoy going as fast as you can on rough track".
Yes, the spectrum of MTB use.
My view is that a better co-ordinated national promotion of all non-competitive cycling is where the most impact will be felt. British Cycling has proved itself inadequate at doing this and Cycling UK suffers an image problem (and lack of funding) to really make the difference that it wants. Asking the manufacturers is laudable but they will only join if there is a serious strategy that they can see the benefit of. Once we (co-ordinated cyclists) have made a case and have achieved a good understanding of the benefits and enjoyment that cycling brings amongst the majority of non-cyclists (including central-Government departments who filter it down to local government), the appreciation of the various 'sub-sections' of cycling will improve.
Boring, I know, but I think this is the only way to meet Hannah's wish.
Inter-nicene fighting between those who consider themselves the real mountain bikers doesn't help and neither does the demonisation of other countryside access groups.
Another +1 for "wild cycling", obviously it's a bit tongue-in-cheek but that's fine. It reckon it could be on every other middle-aged women's dating profile by this time next year.
To the main point, Cycling UK have been busy trying to put their own mellower spin on MTB for a few years now. Mainly focusing on long-distance off-road routes, but they are certainly on board with the "rambling with a bike" ethos mentioned above. And very inclusive in their comms.
There were two common complaints when I was involved in advocacy that the industry. Actually there were a lot more than two, but these are the relevant ones).
1. That the industry was always marketing MTB as an extreme sport, with skids and stunts in promo videos.
2. More importantly, that the industry did sweet FA to understand or assist advocacy efforts. It wasn't even on their radar.
It seems these things might be gradually changing now, which is nice. I do hope Manon and her pals stay involved anyway.
But why is it necessary? One of the best articulations I've seen was in a Ride Sheffield blog post ages ago, where John H bemoaned MTBers being treated as "second class citizens of the outdoors". Changing that perception/treatment could bring positive developments on both a local and national level.
I'm not really sure I get the 'wild cycling' thing. Wild camping is camping with no facilities. Off road cycling is just that, cycling not on a road, but a bridleway or trail cenetre is the facilities, so it's not wild....
I think, if we want to get more open access, we need more general acceptance, so having every picture associated with MTBing as some stormtrooper pulling a 10ft high tailwhip or schralping the brown pow doesn't really do us any favours although it might sell bikes. Showing people of different ages, backgrounds, ethnicities and gender having fun on bikes beautiful countryside might help.
having every picture associated with MTBing as some stormtrooper pulling a 10ft high tailwhip or schralping the brown pow doesn’t really do us any favours although it might sell bikes.
I'm not sure it even fulfills the latter requirements. Is it not the point that presenting that image actually deters the majority of potential customers? Those adverts are chasing upspend from a small niche of enthusiasts. As I said, compare the number of <£600 hardtails bought with the number of enduro or all-mountain bikes already, and then ponder where any new buyer is going to get involved
Oh - does anyone remember that "History of UK Mountain Biking" film? How much of it was about racing and how much about just riding in the hills?
I just did an image search for mountainbiking. I don't use google so your results might vary but its interesting that its mainly open face helmets wheels on the ground and beautiful scenery not stormtroupers doing difficult things
Things might have changed but the #1 cause of long-term absence in the Lothians and Border Fire Service certainly used to be biking injuries sustained at Glentress
I believe in the Borders General, Glentress is known as ‘that awful place’
Bit of a mix on google, Lots of radness but some other bits in there as well, including a young girl, which is great.
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I just did the Google image search on my phone and one of the pics was of some trails I recognised (well ladybower in the background). So clicked on it to find a German Komoot page trying to sell “the outdoor city” to German mtb’ers as a destination. Fly to Manchester, take the train to Sheffield (remember to pre book your bike) and then you can ride straight to lady cannings plantation… or any of the other routes they’d taken from the venerable vg guide book we all love.
Which is interesting as it shows how one little bit of the industry is indeed trying to sell an area as a destination to tourists from abroad like we have with skiing here… it was talking up trail centres as a great British invention, which is kind of odd as the peak is precisely not a trail centre, but I’ll leave that to the marketing people.
Made me wonder though if the comparison to snow sports is a little unfair as the advertising of skiing and boarding in the uk is aimed at people who are by definition looking at expensive foreign holidays, whereas advertising of off road cycling in the uk to uk consumers is looking for a very different spend level. Would Austrian papers carry ads and editorial supplements advertising all the different resorts when domestic skiers would generally just drive to their local ski centre at the weekend…?
The things that I don't think have been discussed in this thread the ecosystem and mountain biking. We used to drive somewhere to ride most weekends, but now we have drastically reduced the amount of driving we do to ride a bike. Most of out riding now is straight from the door and either road or making the best of what the local area has to offer. I don't think for us this will change as we don't want to contribute more than we have to polution and climate change.
Maybe for city dwellers someone could run coach trips with bike trailers (like they do to Europe) or trains could be provided with decent bike facilities. The Ramblers seem to manage to organise coach trips and I know people who don't drive but would like to mountain bike.
The other elephant in the room is EBikes I don't ride one but when we were shopping in Bike Treks they said that The majority of bikes they sold were e bikes. Hire e bikes seem very popular in the Lakes and it would appear to be a good way of getting more people out. I don't think your average non cyclist even thinks about Gnar but they do think about hills.
Its worse here for sure, but if you read any puff piece on niche sports in any of the mainstream media outlets, its full of words like ‘protein bars, energy drink, white knuckle, thrill seeking, exhausting, drained, adrenalin, etc…’It’s certainly not exclusively that and its easy to find more mild descriptions targeted at say, the centre Parcs crowd, but the preponderance of imagery and writing is on the gnar side.
A lot of cycling (in the media) is either this ^^ or the shatteringly dull technical stuff of rebound rates and gear inches and carbon grade and aero...
When I do ride-leading, it's noticeable how the men graduate to talking about the latter - Strava and power and aero and tech bollocks and fitness and "smashing it" - and the women talk about normal stuff!
Fun has to be the key.
All the people we've turned on to riding off road have purely been into it for fun.
They didn't feel the need to aspire to anything:
Not to buy a posh bike.
Not to be a part of a scene.
Not as an alternative to golf, or sailing, or climbing.
Just fun.
I used to organise MTB meets a few times a year for members of our Mountaineering Club.
By far, the most positive feedback and largest attendances were non tech rides rediscovering areas people already knew. Llanberis Quarry, Snowdonia cheek, London Road above Hebden etc.
If you want a perfect example of how to turn people on to riding off road, look at Hit The North - especially the pre race introductory rides.
Experienced, seasoned MTBers like Terrahawk, Harry The Spider and Mr Sparkle taking the time to be nice to newbies.
Inclusivity.
Mrs Spanner, previously a roadie was treated so well, never belittled, always looked after.
The trails were all rideable by those with a bit of experience, but beginners were never, ever made to feel like they didn't belong, needed a posh bike or weren't welcome.
I'll never forget Terrahawk showing her some of the easier options, or pretending to need a pee and waiting just to make sure no one ever felt excluded.
And my god, it was fun.
I'll never forget the buzz from those rides. The feeling of not being judged by wealth or ability.
Perhaps that's what we should be striving for?
That all goes back to the article from Hannah a few months ago where she took a bunch of lasses out in the hills who were very inexperienced... I wonder if Hannah could do a follow up article from them all and see if any have ridden again since and if not, why not.. They all seemed to have a blast and enjoy it.. So i'd hope they have gone on and tried it again.
Support the businesses that support mountain biking... and once people can make money out of presenting sensible mountain biking, they will have marketing and PR budgets and present it in that way. If they can sell a family a 1 week holiday in a chalet next to the bike trails, they will present the sport in the same style as a skiing holiday.
Just call it “Wild cycling” and everyone will jump on the bandwagon! It worked for swimming and camping 😉
Absolutely. For example I used to find picnics boring, but now I'm totally into wild eating!!!
@RustySpanner - Those Hit the North rides were such fun and no one got left out or left behind, just loads of laughs and encouragement and a great way to learn the course. I agree with everything you've written.
Weeksy
Surrey hills has 1 shop, 1 pub and a post office, again not exactly embraced
I think you must be confusing Surrey Hills with a single village in Surrey Hills...
I usually try to manage at least 2-3 pubs on a ride... 😉 The Plough is good for Redlands/Leith Hill - Kings Head has been built at the bottom of Crackpipe /Wet and Wild so you can get a pint in between runs... and the Royal Oak is good if you want to get straight to Logans Run without the boring misery of Telegraph. (and that's really just Peaslake/Holmbury/Leith Hill area .. lots and lots more riding in the wider SH)
Well my point was, that it's not exactly a 'destination' in the same way your Morzine, Les Gets etc is... Obviously a lot of that is due to size of small hills vs mountains.. but the UK simply hasn't embraced MTB in terms of destinations. There's no bars, cafes, bike shops all at the bottom, with hotels etc... That's kinda where i was going with my post initially. Doesn't matter now, the point has kinda moved on.
the UK simply hasn’t embraced MTB in terms of destinations. There’s no bars, cafes, bike shops all at the bottom
Inners has four bike shops, four cafes and a few pubs all in between the golfie and the uplift side.
The number of visitors here would suggest it is very much a "destination" for MTBers.
Inners has four bike shops, four cafes and a few pubs all in between the golfie and the uplift side.
The number of visitors here would suggest it is very much a “destination” for MTBers
So 1 place then in the whole of the country... and in Scotland which is the furthest part away and for many proably longer to get to than Morzine 🙂
Embraced... nah.... 1 .. Sure.
What stu said, but I'd add Aviemore to that short list. The major difference here is that the MTBers are generally of the more bimbly type (Burnside aside) and the number can be hidden by the folk also doing walking, running, paddling, swimming, skiing etc. Local businesses are installing secure bike storage, bike washes and so on too.
I've a feeling Fort William should be a third but I'm not sure it's quite there (local knowledge please?). The new carriages on the train should certainly make it more accessible to those without a car/van option but I don't think it has quite the variety of accessible trails (yet?)
Doesn’t matter now, the point has kinda moved on.
It kinda is relevant because it depends what MTB is to you/me/them
Well my point was, that it’s not exactly a ‘destination’ in the same way your Morzine, Les Gets etc is… Obviously a lot of that is due to size of small hills vs mountains.. but the UK simply hasn’t embraced MTB in terms of destinations. There’s no bars, cafes, bike shops all at the bottom, with hotels etc… That’s kinda where i was going with my post initially.
Morzine is a similar distance/time from Paris as Inners is from London. It's not like your average Parisien is popping out after work to Morzine with some lights... so for most French MTBers its a holiday destination same as us.
inners is pretty central to the UK by geography if non population... way more so than Morzine is to France
Obviously a lot of that is due to size of small hills vs mountains..
Honestly don't think so... a top to bottom at BPW/Revs/Dyfi/Inners/Golfie without stopping is plenty for me. It's just nicer when its not pissing it down maybe?
The main difference (after weather) I feel is because Morzine/Whistler etc. all had pre-existing ski/board infrastructure. We have loads of mountains "big enough" but lots of organisations who's job it is to stop people ruining/enjoying them.
the point has kinda moved on
Personally I'm missing the point of why we (as opposed to people who sell stuff) would want to change "mountain biking" to attract more people? Personally I hate football and would much rather play Rugby... but I'd rather ride than either. I see no point saying "lets change football to something I enjoy". "They" whoever that is are trying to ruin Rugby... Ollie suddenly discovered its actually fun this year after being forced to play "touch rugby" before this year. If you don't like getting muddy and breaking the odd bone/nose/black eye play football, baskeyball if you do play rugby... why change rugby into a non contact sport??? It's the same with MTB... if you don't want to get hurt do gravel or road... both perfectly valid alternatives just as football is.
The point of the above...having a foot in NEITHER camp why would Rugby want to compete with football or visa versa?
Whereas those invested in Rugby disagree as some want to make it more accessible and others want to keep it as Rugby.
If you aren't invested then to me it's like Rugby want to "steal" people from football, hockey, basketball (etc.)...by changing Rugby... There is sod all wrong with any of them.. even people in Wales can play football if they like... it's not illegal or anything.
With an invested foot in MTB I can't see why we want to "steal" people from gravel/road anyway but especially by trying to change MTB to something many would rather just stay home than endure!
Maybe encouraging folk to be outdoors and active would create a fitter, healthier population with fewer mental health issues? If you want a bottom line, think of the cost of the NHS and of lost working days due to illness and then how much those could be reduced.
The whole point is trying to get away from the "dangerous activity" vibe which puts off the majority.
So 1 place then in the whole of the country…
You must be blind to a lot of riding destinations is all I can say.
If you're looking for UK MTB destinations in Berkshire you're looking in the wrong place...
The whole point is trying to get away from the “dangerous activity” vibe which puts off the majority.
Exactly why it's great to see school kids out on the trails as part of their schooling round here.
Totally normalises it.
If it can be done here it can be done at other places.
We were riding with some folks from the Aderdeenshire Trail association last week and they were telling us about their big efforts to get blue trails constructed for exactly this reason.
If you’re looking for UK MTB destinations in Berkshire you’re looking in the wrong place…
you need to go to surrey for that.
my sons school has a mountain biking club, they go all over to ride, they do day trips to the welsh trail centres that are probably 1-2 hours from here, weekends to inners/glentress etc, and week long trips abroad.
I dont think most people are put off because "its dangerous" (although some certainly are), they're probably put off because its hard work - not just in terms of pedalling up a hill, but loading the bike into the car , driving to somewhere worth riding etc. If you're in it for the exercise, its usually far easier to go for a run, or go out on a road bike, why bother with the faff of a mountain bike and finding somewhere off road to ride it. its just more all round effort to go wild cycling that it is to run or ride on the road - for most people. or if you are in it for the views, the wildlife ,the fresh air etc, just go for a walk in the hills, why bother with a bike?
If you live near a decent selection of trails then there probably are already a higher percentage of people riding mountain bikes than normal.
Maybe encouraging folk to be outdoors and active would create a fitter, healthier population with fewer mental health issues? If you want a bottom line, think of the cost of the NHS and of lost working days due to illness and then how much those could be reduced.
Yeah people can walk, run or do gravel... or maybe the want to play football or something?
The whole point is trying to get away from the “dangerous activity” vibe which puts off the majority.
People who don't want to do a dangerous activity can walk, run or do gravel.
Why is it a good thing to get them to do MTB instead?
Why is it a good thing to get them to do MTB instead?
My take on this is it makes things better for us folks that already ride.
As an example riding MTB's round here is pretty mainstream and almost everyone knows someone who rides or sees people out riding.
This leads to it being seen as more normal. Which in turn stops most but not all people complaining about you riding a bike.
It's pretty normal for me to stop and chat with walkers/ dog walkers/horse riders/forestry guys/farmer workers and they couldn't care less as to my mode of transport.
That hardly ever used to happen riding in an area where bikes were a lot less common.
As an example riding MTB’s round here is pretty mainstream and almost everyone knows someone who rides or sees people out riding.
This leads to it being seen as more normal. Which in turn stops most but not all people complaining about you riding a bike.
It’s pretty normal for me to stop and chat with walkers/ dog walkers/horse riders/forestry guys/farmer workers and they couldn’t care less as to my mode of transport.
That hardly ever used to happen riding in an area where bikes were a lot less common.
how much is area and how much is the people?
If someone drove an hour to ride what you ride from your back door, they would probably have the same experience out on the trails - if they were equally friendly and polite.
Its when they drive home to their non-honeypot house that their mum/wife/neighbour thinks they are nuts
Its when they drive home to their non-honeypot house that their mum/wife/neighbour thinks they are nuts
That's the point of getting more people in to riding.
Their mum/wife/neighbour will see it as a pretty normal thing to do because it's more common.
People who don’t want to do a dangerous activity can walk, run or do gravel.
Why is it a good thing to get them to do MTB instead?
MTB doesn't have to be dangerous. That's the whole point.
And what is called "gravel riding" these days was mountainbiking years ago. IMO its due to MTBs becoming so much more capable that bridleway bimbling becomes no challenge / fun on a modern MTB
There's a huge elephant in the room here that's not being mentioned, as I'm the devils avocado I'm going to mention it. Whether you like it or not, MTB in England in it's best form is often done on illegal trails. It's actively promoted in route discussions and local Instagram feeds in places like the Lakes are full of groups riding where they shouldn't be. It's so normalised it probably barely gets noticed, and yet it's hard to reconcile that with a more mainstream acceptance of the sport, it'll always tend a bit more towards FightClub than a family day out - in that way it's fundamentally different from skiing where the majority of the activity is done on cultivated and permitted terrain. What we need of course, is more realistic access rights, and ensuring riders leave as little trace as possible.
And what is called “gravel riding” these days was mountainbiking years ago.
For some, there's others of us who've always been throwing ourselves of the edges of things to see what will happen since the 90's. Bikes now just mean that it's more likely it'll be in one piece when you hit the ground.
MTB doesn’t have to be dangerous. That’s the whole point.
But ... that's a different sport/activity GRAVEL???... or whatever.
It's like pretending "touch rugby" is real rugby when its a completely different thing...
To some extent it depends what you/I mean by "dangerous" .. very very few people die so it's not really dangerous but some people think minor injuries count as dangerous??? Someone can fall off and break an arm anywhere even riding to the shops ... its part of MTB... either accept that or do something "safe".
We just had some new small features added to a local boring trail... totally ruined by complaints of people that want it to be "safe"
It's like someone complaining the swimming pool has a 5m board.... erm because some people like it and its the regulation height for diving ... no-one is forcing anyone to use the 5m board so why should it's existence upset them?
The gaps were barely longer than a bike and totally bypassable or rollable if you go slow enough - if people don't want to do the gaps don't - no-one is forcing them .. However complaining it's there and its mere existence somehow being offensive to them just ruins it for everyone else.
TJ
And what is called “gravel riding” these days was mountainbiking years ago. IMO its due to MTBs becoming so much more capable that bridleway bimbling becomes no challenge / fun on a modern MTB
Agree ... the actual risk element hasn't changed as such.
I remember decades ago on a fully rigid Claude Butler Hire bike (before helmets) going down what would today be a bridleway (Wenslydale) and no fun at all on even my 100mm XC HT... being totally on the edge. Thing is even on my FS Enduro blowing the front wheel would lead to the same crash as 40 yrs ago.... only at least now I'd be wearing a helmet!
Mountainbiking used to include what is now considered gravel riding. Now its considered a different pastime
The emphasis on pretending its some sort of "extreme sport" puts off many folk who would benefit from and enjoy a bit of wandering around the scenery on MTBs. In reality the extreme side of it is very much a minority pastime even amongst MTBers
Steve - is that not a bit elitist? The trail was there and used by folk. Someone else comes along and modified it so that those folk no longer feel safe riding it. What gives the modifiers that right?
Its not a sport unless you are in a competition
But … that’s a different sport/activity GRAVEL???… or whatever.
No. It's not. It's been mountain biking since before the term was even invented. You don't get to redefine it.
Yup - I started riding in the mountains on a modified road bike way back when. I first came to riding a proper mountainbike to access the mountains.
Mountainbiking used to include what is now considered gravel riding. Now its considered a different pastime
Yes because it's evolved but the risk element hasn't actually changed. If you go down a rutted fireroad at 40mph and have a front wheel blow out the result is still the same.
The emphasis on pretending its some sort of “extreme sport” puts off many folk who would benefit from and enjoy a bit of wandering around the scenery on MTBs.
Erm... yep that's now called gravel or whatever ... all depends what you call "extreme"... is a 4' gap or 2' drop extreme? How about a 100km marathon ride or London to Brighton???
The thing is I'm not seeing that emphasis.... even my YT algorithm results aren't seeing that.
What I am seeing is people using it as a term to ruin other people's fun for no reason than wanting to ruin other peoples fun.
In reality the extreme side of it is very much a minority pastime even amongst MTBers
Again depends what you call "extreme"... Hardline is extreme.... 50:1/oakley line ...Cape Epic is extreme... BC endurance is extreme ... so yes all minority pastimes. Totally optional lines with tiny drops and jumps isn't extreme its trail diversity.
Steve – is that not a bit elitist? The trail was there and used by folk. Someone else comes along and modified it so that those folk no longer feel safe riding it. What gives the modifiers that right?
What gives them the right? Other than being designated the official trail crew by the trust that operates the land .. they own tools and that's all they need.
If people are saying they don't feel safe because of the modifications then they are liars.
The jumps were obvious you aren't hitting it by mistake ... they were rollable AND by-passable... all options you can do it slow and roll, you can do it fast and bypass or you can do the jump..
We took my mates 6yr old beginner down on her 16" wheel BSO and she rolled them... so people feeling threatened just by the existence of these tiny gaps makes no sense. The only way they could make them feel unsafe is if they have uncontrollable urges..
I'm only saying that as a coverall... I don't believe the mere existence of these totally optional jumps makes people feel physically unsafe... they are just pissed there is something they personally can't/won't do so they want to ruin it for everyone.
Its not a sport unless you are in a competition
Other than the assertion in the article I'm not seeing this "extreme sport" ... I'm just seeing people (I don't mean you) looking to spoil everyone else's fun. If people don't want to do these tiny jumps they don't have to.... but trying to label a small and totally optional 6' gap as "extreme sports" to get it removed (which is what they did) is pathetic.
What gives them the right? Other than being designated the official trail crew by the trust that operates the land .. they own tools and that’s all they need.
Fair enough
scotroutes
No. It’s not. It’s been mountain biking since before the term was even invented. You don’t get to redefine it.
I'm not the one invented "gravel riding" or the term it's just something that happened with the evolution of (mountain) biking.
If you met me on the trails and asked me how did I get to the trails I'd probably say "gravel riding" because I use the sustrans routes... and bridleways to differentiate it from "road".
Other than the as close to totally flat bit at the start (River Towpath) it's all perfectly possible/pleasant on a shopping bike ... in winter the river towpath is sloppy... so something with knobblier tyres... whatever bike I'm riding though it's not "MTB" ...
I'm all for whatever its called btw.... I don't really care if people want to call it MTB so long as they don't want to change what I call MTB. If however people want some perceived "safe" pastime I think there is value in setting expectations....
How about 'cycling'?
It might just catch on.....
I’m all for whatever its called btw…. I don’t really care if people want to call it MTB so long as they don’t want to change what I call MTB. If however people want some perceived “safe” pastime I think there is value in setting expectations….
Does your MTB include riding over straw men? Nobody has suggested excluding any type of MTB.
Here we go again...
IT.
JUST.
DOESN'T.
HAVE.
TO.
BE
DANGEROUS.
Edit 0- can't get geograph pics to show
Does your MTB include riding over straw men? Nobody has suggested excluding any type of MTB.
Here we go again…
IT.
JUST.
DOESN’T.
HAVE.
TO.
BE
DANGEROUS.
Even boring gravel is still dangerous once you get above 10mph ... every bit as dangerous as doing a few gap jumps...
How do you intend to police your risk free world? Hand out tickets to anyone going faster than 5mph ?
Is this mountainbiking?
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How about this?
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this?
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/8028/7001789900_8bdd8ebc6e_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/8028/7001789900_8bdd8ebc6e_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/bEJ1cw ]guy black hill 2[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/25846484@N04/ ]TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr
this?
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/5004/5234509715_b79ee4004a_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/5004/5234509715_b79ee4004a_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/8Yyenv ]snowy pentlands 013[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/25846484@N04/ ]TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr
Or this?
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some of those pics are far more "mountains" than riding round the woods on built trails with jumps
Most of them I could ride on my roadbike but it would be slow and difficult. But then again I guess most of us could take a road bike round glentress red - slowly and carefully using the chicken lines - so does that make glentress not mountainbiking?
The gaps were barely longer than a bike and totally bypassable or rollable if you go slow enough
Building gaps into existing trials is a dick move. You want gaps? Build a new trail for them.
Even boring gravel is still dangerous once you get above 10mph …
no it is not It really isn't. many many thousands of miles over many decades riding in the hills. One minor injury
Is this mountainbiking?
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/3584/4020307364_9bf18e45b3_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/3584/4020307364_9bf18e45b3_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/78g8jd ]Endless doubletrack[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/25846484@N04/ ]TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr
How about this?
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/2760/4150937260_178538483e_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/2760/4150937260_178538483e_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/7jND2N ]DSC00323[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/25846484@N04/ ]TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr
This?
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??
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[tongue in cheek]
Mountain biking was invented by some hippy Americans trying to get down a mountain as fast as they could on bikes that were less than suitable. Being dangerous is in mountain biking's DNA. And as it was a race, I guess that makes it a sport as well.
Riding around in the mountains on a bike is something different. I dunno; picnic-biking? Whatever, sounds dull to me.
[/tongue in cheek]
One of those pics is on a classic scottish mountainbike route. One of them is in les Gets
Is it mountainbiking if you can ride the trail on a road bike even if slowly and carefully? I bet most of us could ride Glentrerss red on a road bike. Does that mean glentress is not mountainbiking?
Nickc - and they were on doubletrack / fireroads 🙂
Kelvin
Building gaps into existing trials is a dick move. You want gaps? Build a new trail for them.
How about the fun police who complain go buy their own land, start their own trail association and STFU instead of criticising the existing trail builders who built the trail in the first place?
*scratches head*
so riding in the mountains is not mountainbiking but riding in the local flat woods is?
TJagain
no it is not It really isn’t. many many thousands of miles over many decades riding in the hills. One minor injury
Then you better tell that to the fun police at British Watewrways who define anything above walking speed as dangerous?
Nobody else? I actually think this is a really interesting question " How do you define mountainbiking?"
Any definition has to really encompass the early days of the repack lot - who were racing downhill on fireroads to the armour clad DH racers and redbull rampage guys of today
In the middle of that is the twisty trails in the woods and the wandering around the scenery stuff
this is my attempt:
" Mountainbiking is riding offroad on bicycles built for the task characterised by wide tyres, low gearing and wide flat bars, on tracks and trails where it would be difficult, uncomfortable or dangerous to ride a road bike"
^ seems reasonable.
MTB in England in it’s best form is often done on illegal trails.
for about 5% of people who would describe themselves as 'mountain bikers'
TJ, Tomac would take umbrage with your description, but I don't. It's pretty much all there is to it.
I don't know what canals are like to ride on in Scotland, as I have only encountered them in the Great Glen.
In Manchester I dream of walking pace with all the pedestrians and unfettered dogs.
It also amuses me that the Bridgewater canal has no horses signs. I think it might be interesting to borrow a horse drawn barge.
Ajaydoubleyou - mentioned people driving from home to honeypot spots and mum/wive/neighbour all thinking they are nuts. Out of those mentioned 2 were female and this is one of the problems of getting women into any form of 'off road' cycling, they do find this pastime 'nuts'. I've never got any female I know into mtbiking, the only female mtbers I know were already riders when I met them.
Even when you spot females riding easy gravel trails such as canal tow paths or double farmers tracks, many look scared when you try and pass them. It just doesn't look fun. I suspect it's only females who enjoy a bit of an adrenaline rush who will find mtbing/wild cycling/off road riding fun.
I really don't know how to get women into this wonderful hobby and out onto the trails. But, at a guess most of the daughters of stwers will hopefully be encouraged to have a go and carry on this sport from childhood into adulthood.
It also amuses me that the Bridgewater canal has no horses signs. I think it might be interesting to borrow a horse drawn barge.
Most canals say No Horseriding.
Somewhere in between canals being used by horse drawn barges and now, someone realised that actually *riding* a horse along a canal wouldn't work cos the bridges are too low to accommodate a rider. They were designed for small towing ponies, not a proper horse.
I suppose you could get into a similar "what is horse riding?" debate as there is about "what is MTBing?" cos you'll find some common ground but no actual definition.
I don’t know what canals are like to ride on in Scotland,
We only have a couple.
the union canal and the forth and clyde which make up one that goes between Edinburgh to Glasgow and the Crinan canal across Kintyre which is a short ship canal. Its busy in places and at times but does have a good towpath. I use it quite a lot
Ajaydoubleyou – mentioned people driving from home to honeypot spots and mum/wive/neighbour all thinking they are nuts. Out of those mentioned 2 were female and this is one of the problems of getting women into any form of ‘off road’ cycling, they do find this pastime ‘nuts’. I’ve never got any female I know into mtbiking, the only female mtbers I know were already riders when I met them.
You make a valid point, I have subconsciously described women. Mum rather than parent, I would say is based on my own parents. Both are a bit bemused by my time consuming hobby but I think only my mum is concerned for my safety.
Wife rather than spouse - that is purely a gender stereotype for which I apologise. Can’t claim personal bias as I’m not married and my girlfriend has mtb’d for longer than me, longer than I have known her, and she was an equestrian before that.
For balance though, I’ve never got any man I know into it either. Although one of the fit young men at work has just bought a decent second hand hardtail for fitness so I might try to get him on some single track at some point.
It also amuses me that the Bridgewater canal has no horses signs. I think it might be interesting to borrow a horse drawn barge.
Same with ours, the fun police have been out and horses (the intended use when built) are banned and cycles "limited to a walking pave" due to elf and safety ****ers I'm surprised they haven't yet put a fence up or drained the water for elf and safety
I would suggest that evidence might show that accidents on mountain bikes are often not as serious as cycling on the road. I dont actually know the figures but there must be more deaths and serious injuries on the road. If you watch the Air ambulance programs there appear to be more and more serious injuries from road cycling. I would guess that more people have died in SUP accidents than when riding off road this year. I don't think SUPs are considered dangerous by most people, but there are significant risks for the inexperienced.
so riding in the mountains is not mountainbiking but riding in the local flat woods is?
I'm happy to go with your definition...
” Mountainbiking is riding offroad on bicycles built for the task characterised by wide tyres, low gearing and wide flat bars, on tracks and trails where it would be difficult, uncomfortable or dangerous to ride a road bike”
I'd just possibly expand to say MORE dangerous not OR.... (all depending really what you/I mean by "dangerous")
If dangerous means paralysed or dead or minor injuries?
If I think more it doesn't necessitate flat bars... IMHO
Is this mountainbiking?
So just from your first picture... doubletrack no.. single track off to left yes. If you can get a car over it its not MTB .. that doesn't mean the overall route you did that day WASN'T unless it was all like that.
3rd pic yes if the rest of the trail is like that ... even though you could do it (more slowly) on a gravel bike...
I guess what that means is its more the overall... If I was doing mostly the first and a bit of the third I'd take a gravel bike if I had one.. (very similar to a lot of the North Yorks bridleways where I borrow my brothers Gravel bike) If you were doing mostly (by time) the 3rd photo and riding the first to get there then I'd class that as light MTB
Back to risk... regardless of what each one is called you are no less likely to get a minor injury doing that than a few 10' gaps...
Steve - want to have a go at defining mountainbiking? Or critique my definition?
After a bit more thought I'm gonna take a couple of words out of mine
” Mountainbiking is riding offroad on bicycles built for the task characterised by wide tyres, low gearing and wide bars, on tracks and trails where it would be difficult or dangerous to ride a road bike”
Nobody else? I actually think this is a really interesting question ” How do you define mountainbiking?”
Why do you feel a need to define 'mountain biking'? I mean really, what's the big deal. It's just a convenient label that's arguably really subjective. Why can't it just be a broad church encompassing pretty much anything that involves, you know, riding a mountain bike.
Downhill mountain biking is mountain biking. Enduro mountain biking is mountain biking. Trail riding on a mountain bike is mountain biking. Bimbling on double track is still mountain biking. As is technical bridleway thrashing. And when small kids ride mountain bikes in the park, it's still mountain biking.
It's just a blanket term that covers pretty much anything you can do on a mountain bike. Why are people trying to force it into a small box? It's not 'really interesting', it's just pointless navel gazing.
The only reason to define types of bike is so you can be sold the "ideal" bike.
Why are people trying to force it into a small box?
I'm not. I'm happy that it encompasses loads of stuff. I think TJ is trying to explain that to @stevextc with his "definition". I've given up trying.
