DJI comes out swinging saying the proposals do not "have a clear theoretical foundation".
And in other news "Mice don't like cats"
"including individuals with disabilities who require enhanced assistance, those with higher body weights, minors, and users of e-cargo bikes for transporting supplies, where often involve loads up to 400 kg, necessitating additional support when navigating inclined terrains"
Strange.. their only model of adult eMTB has a rider weight limit of 125kg... are they developing cargo bikes, I wonder.
As my user name hints, Amflow bikes are not accessible for those with "higher body weights".
How many eMTB's have a weight limit higher than 125kg? Trek do 136kg on the Rail but that includes the weight of the bike.
As was said on the other thread, I would take a reduction in power any day for reliability and cheaper systems
I’d probably prefer voluntary, manufacturer control as the alternative may well be a knee jerk piece of legislation that isn’t ideal.
I’d probably prefer voluntary, manufacturer control as the alternative may well be a knee jerk piece of legislation that isn’t ideal.
didn’t the proposed changes cone from an industry body in Germany?
this reaction from DJI suggests that the manufacturers may struggle to agree on voluntary controls.
Strange.. their only model of adult eMTB has a rider weight limit of 125kg... are they developing cargo bikes, I wonder.
Just because DJI don't cater for 400kg loads doesn't mean they shouldn't care about restrictions that would affect others that might. And they're having a pop at the subscription model of motor/drive capabilities as well, which I can only see as a good thing.
This response puts DJI in a good light from my perspective.
Not sure why people are talking as if Amflow is the only DJ1-motored bike, or the only one there will be. Forbidden and Unno are both using the Avinox motor and there's bound to be more, DJ1 have every right as a motor supplier to pitch in on the whole sector, not just on the bits they've directly targeted already. And it seems like a pretty well reasoned argument, albeit obviously self-serving too.
750W seems to be being targered largely because a) it's a nice round number and b) some of the brands involved's biggest motor is 750W.
Large loads : another vehicle class.
Disabled transport : another vehicle class.
These needs can be catered for while restricting what can be treated the same as a bike without any motor assistance.
Genuine question: isn't 750 W quite a lot? The vast majority of people on bikes couldn't put out 750 W for more than a few seconds. Of course, there's the weight of the motor and battery to be considered, but still.
I think that electric delivery vehicles and mobility aids for people with disabilities are great. But I think that the category of vehicle that that we call e-bikes is widely regarded as 'essentially a bike but with some electrical assistance to enable users to do their bikerising with less effort'. So whilst it might mean more admin, we clearly need more / different vehicle classifications.
If having 1000 W+ in an e-MTB has no major downsides (maybe we just need to get used to things going fast uphill as well as down?) then why not allow it on that basis? But not on the basis that somewhere there's a 400 kg delivery vehicle that needs a lot of power to work. That just smacks of disingenuosity across the board, and devalues any case for why they should be allowed.
Yes - 1000w or 750w is loads. As far as I can see there are no realistic use case for it, other than e-mtbers wanting to go faster up/down hills etc, which is not remotely in the spirit of why e-bikes are classified as cycles.
Maybe there is a niche use case for a cargo bike at 500w, but this feels like it would be better addressed with a new category rather than giving a huge loophole that allows what are really e-motorbikes to be ridden as bicycles.
I'm sure someone will shortly tell me the legislation says 250w is the max sustained power not instantaneous, but having it cut reduce after 30 minutes is not in the spirit of things.
Genuine question: isn't 750 W quite a lot? The vast majority of people on bikes couldn't put out 750 W for more than a few seconds. Of course, there's the weight of the motor and battery to be considered, but still.
I reckon the vast majority of people would struggle to put out *half* that for any length of time. Even a third would probably be above the average FTP.
I don't really get why ebikes have anything near that much power, with a top assisted speed of 15.5mph, unless manufacturers are *intending* that people derestrict them.
Genuine question: isn't 750 W quite a lot? The vast majority of people on bikes couldn't put out 750 W for more than a few seconds.
Whilst for you or I yes it is if you look at comments from a lot of ebikers demanding an increase in the permitted speed they seem to happily cruise at 20mph plus so I guess for them its a bogstandard output.
Is the limit because eBikes are dual use - capable of being ridden on the road? Why should they have limits off road? Nothing else does.
It's because the limits are to allow them to be treated as bicycles. They can be used on cycle paths and bridleways without training or licence. Something we want to keep (assuming "we" are people who think eBikes are a useful extension of bikes for transport and leisure use). You can buy electric motorbikes with no limits to race on land you have permission to use. You can buy electric motorbikes to use on the road only with much higher limits, with their own regulations far beyond the regulations on bikes and eBikes.
Ultimately some ebikers just want to be able to go faster and faster.
They have to face reality that they are both too lazy to actually pedal and also to chicken to go the whole way and get a crosser.
Sadly if the power limits keep increasing then we will get bans starting to crop up on trails in the UK. For me I don't really care, but at least it will reduce some of the erosion of trails as people won't have the energy to ride the same trail 20 times in one ride
Can someone post a link to what they're talking about, I thought the consultation was to increase it to 500W and allow them to be throttle controlled? Not 750W?
Smarter regulation: proposed changes to legislation for electrically assisted pedal cycles - GOV.UK
Personally I think it's a bad idea, 250W is already considerably more than an average person could output. 750W is on a par with a Moped FFS, we don't let Derbi Sendas** on Bridleways and Trail centers for good reason.
I reckon the vast majority of people would struggle to put out *half* that for any length of time. Even a third would probably be above the average FTP.
Most people would struggle to output 1/4 of that as an FTP, at 80kg that would be 2.4W/kg which would comfortably put you in the top 5-10% of any keen recreational group, on a road bike that would be averaging ~19mph solo on rolling hills, and on the flat ~200W is about 25mph.
Is the limit because eBikes are dual use - capable of being ridden on the road? Why should they have limits off road? Nothing else does.
Yes they do, it it's over 250W then it's a motorbike and needs license, insurance, registration, tax* and is limited to Byways like anything else with an engine.
*zero rate, but you still have to go to the .gov site and 'buy' it each year because they can't setup a DD for £0 😂
**yes they have more power when de-restricted, but lets assume your local 16yr old is sticking with the letter of the law, which they're probably not.
I looked at the proposal and there's something I'm not clear on - if the bike made under the proposed changes has throttle control do you actually need to pedal at all?
That would certainly tick off DJI as one, their power advantage is somewhat removed, and two, adding a throttle would reduce the competitive advantage they have re. response time etc.
It's nothing to do with the earlier proposal for 500w and possibly throttle from UK government.
This is a voluntary agreement by the manufacturers. They still have a nominal 250w and 15.5mph limit, which I think means on flat ground it will never put out over 250w in average, but uphill to might increase to a max output of 750w.
I don't know about other bikes but the Bosch motor with rim magnet pretty much impossible to derestrict.
