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You be the judge! James and Dave have different perspectives on what their group ride is about. Who is right?
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By stwhannah
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Just text/whatsapp the group if running 5 mins late.
If they don't wait, they're not mates.
Depends on previous history. A random, uncharacteristic, late comer is fine. Pathologically late people can get in the sea.
A one off is fine and can be accommodated. chronically late? Irritating to say the least
I used to ride with folk like this. "Meet at 10 to start at 10:30". "Ok chaps I'll meet you at 10:25 and Ill be ready to ride" would be my response. Often folk would not be there at 10:30 even or would arrive then " I just need to change my tyres before we start" meaning no riding until 11.
I have zero tolerance for faffage. Arrive on time and be ready to go. Those who are chronically late are being very rude. What they are saying is that their time is important, yours is not. One chronically late chap we started telling him an earlier start time - he would still be late ie we wanted to start riding at 10, we would tell him quarter to. He wouldn't be ready to ride until quarter past.
Its incredibly rude and disrespectful
+1 on
occasional issues = life happens.
regular lateness or delay = I'm leaving.
And I'm certainly not accepting anyone behaves like the President of Faffganisatan at the start of rides.
and it makes me five minutes late
We’re supposed to leave at 7pm
I’m almost always there by 7.10pm and we don’t set off until 7.15pm. Waiting until 7.20pm
A) so twenty minutes late not five.
B) if it's consistent, move the start time properly, or accept you can't break the laws of physics and that regardless of what you want, you haven't got the time you need. Expecting other people to wait consistently is unfair, just ask them to make it a 7.30 start in future so you've got enough time to deal with the kids etc and don't need to be late.
but it seems to have turned into ‘meet at 7pm, leave at 7.15pm’.
See B, neither of you are children, agree to put the start time back and save yourself the hassle and annoyance.
We’ve tried setting off without people and getting them to catch up with us,
Rule #1 always applies. Unless they've told you they'll catch you up, (and you know the members of your group who will) you rather deserve to get cold and wet waiting on a hillside for them instead of in the car/Cafe other warm dry place you arranged to meet.
20 minutes late, accept that you've missed the ride and do your own thing.
and five minutes doesn’t seem like much for everyone to wait when it makes the difference to me getting to ride, or not.
aka "My time is more important than theirs". Nice.
Sometimes they set off without me and send me a location tracker to catch up with them, but I don’t really know my way around and I struggle to figure out the fastest way to where they are.
Bugger off, if you're only, as you say, five minutes behind, then it's not like they're going to be so far ahead that they're difficult to find and there'll be a bewildering plethora of route choices to get there.
Depends on the type of ride: if it's a serious training session, then leave promptly. Fun times with mates? The usual car park/meeting-spot chat nonsense would give plenty of time for late arrivals.
Horses for courses, ultimately.
I don't get why "it's only a social ride" isa an excuse. Regardless of the type of ride, you've agreed to be there at a certain time. And let's not forget that some in the group may need to start on time as they need to be back by a certain time for other commitments, so waiting for you is not inconsequential to them.
James strikes me as a "they're always late" kinda person, and they piss me off, as it's essentially selfish. Guilty!
Very much depends on the ride. A ride with my close mates, none of us care if anyone is a bit late - we're basically just hanging out and it happens to be on bikes. Any other ride then I'm going to be there and ready well on time. Not really bothered about other people running a bit late tbf though, as long as it's not wet and cold where we're waiting.
the President of Faffganisatan
😂
I'm using that one from now on.
If you're consistently late I'm not waiting.
If I'm going to be late I'll catch you up.
Yep - if you say "meet at 7, leave at 7.15" then each individual rider is responsible for getting there with the time they need - someone driving over needs time to get the bike out the car, put on riding shoes, helmet etc and needs to accommodate that. Someone riding to the start is (or should be!) already good to go. And then you leave on time. Not 15 minutes after that.
**** 'em. If people consistently can't arrange their own lives to get to spot X at meeting time Y, they need binning off.
You don't turn up to a flight expecting them to hold the plane; you get there on time. If you can manage it for a plane or train, you can manage it for a bike ride.
This is obviously not happening in Germany or, heavens forbid, Switzerland. There are rules!
Dave should obviously buy an e-bike as thats the only way he can catch riders that set off 20 mins before him.
NBD winning!
Riding with a club = usually big groups so leave bang on time. Can't wait for everyone.
Riding with mates = who's to 20 minutes!?
If it’s an evening ride close to rush hour, which need’s driving to then yeah lateness is to be expected. There’s getting back from work chance of delay then getting to the trails chance of delay.
I used to ride with someone who’d always be late, then need to back early whilst being the one to constantly need to stop to faff/tinker. I’d just let them go and carry on riding, but the group were nicer than me.
People habitually showing up late can get in the sea, or rather naff off and ride on their own. Social rides the same as anything more formal - I'd say probably worse as that means showing your mates you don't respect them either.
It's incredibly rude, disrespectful and basically shows that they believe that others peoples time isn't important, but theirs is. As someone else mentioned, these people are capable of being on time when it matters - to catch a plane, train, cinema etc.
(Occasional, "genuine issue" driven lateness is different - what I'm talking about above is those who are usually / always late. It's pretty easy to tell these types of people apart.)
Agree a process; meet at 7 set off riding at 7:15 or whatever, that way there's a bit of wiggle room. Being late occasionally is life, being late consistently is rudeness.
President of Faffganisatan
This is my new favourite thing.
It’s incredibly rude, disrespectful and basically shows that they believe that others peoples time isn’t important, but theirs is.
This. I've thinned out the people I ride with as a result.
Manners, consideration and respect are all free. If me and my time and the commitment to our ride isn't worthy of that then I'll see you around.
Do you want to ride with friends or ride exactly at the scheduled time.
LOL i think i'd have a lot less riding mates if you lot were people i rode with.
I went to meet a bunch of mates last week on Friday "meet at 12" was the plan. I turned up at 11.55 having ridden there. Called mate who said "we're just leaving Reading now, we'll be half an hour"..
Did i care... not really... I was a bit bored waiting yes... but we had a cool ride with mates 🙂
Do you want to ride with friends or ride exactly at the scheduled time.
It's entirely possible to do both
punctuality annoys, i have a friend who could make a 2 hour ride 5, dont ride with him often anymore. too much of a ballache,
he was meant to meet another friend yesterday at 10am [for a work quote] rang at 1030 to say he'd be 11, turned up at 1150
Yeah James, you're not 5 mins late, you're 20 mins late. And if that's a regular thing, YTA, as they say on mumsnet. You need to recalibrate your expectations of other peoples time.
As a generally solitary exerciser there's not enough there to convince me either way.
I'd agree with those that make the distinction between occasionally and regularly late we used to have couple friends that were always late for every meet up, it became so annoying we ending up just avoiding them because it was so disrespectful, sometimes an hour plus late. But if someone is late every now and then because of a genuine reason but is normally on time then fine, it happens and I'd wait, But if that is the case you get ready to go ASAP, no messing about.
Sounds like there is a compromise to be made on this one. Starting with not Dave not getting there until nearer 7.15 if he's not interested in pre ride faff.
Its incredibly rude and disrespectful
I'm not sure it really is, it's more thoughtless unless they're genuinely doing it out of spite, I suppose.
We used to have a tight-knit, regular riding group including one guy who was habitually and predictably always late. It was occasionally exasperating, but mostly just mildly amusing and an opportunity to chill out and chat until he arrived. We put up with it because we were mates, not tightly-wound time nazis and on balance, the pleasure of his company out-weighed the occasional annoyance.
It all reached an entertaining finale when he managed to miss our flight for a group mountain biking holiday out in Spain and seemed surprised that the plane hadn't waited for him. It was genuinely just part of who he was / is.
I'd be less tolerant in a less tight-knit group to be honest, but really life and mountain biking is too short to get wound up by stuff like this. In a work context, which I've experienced, it's a lot less forgivable because it's unprofessional, but for casual group rides, I'm not really that fussed. Unless it's really, really cold or someone I don't like 🙂
Forever riding alone...
I'd hope I wouldn't find myself in that position as I don't generally plan to do stuff involving a fixed start time with people who have a persistently casual attitude to timekeeping. I like to make sure I'm on time for other people, it's just who I am.
If I want to see them, it's probably easier to enjoy their company after they've been late getting to the pub rather than after I've been left standing around in a forest car park.
Occasionally shit happens and you accept it. I voted for James (this time) on that basis.
If it's a pattern of behaviour then it's no longer shit happens, it's bad planning, disrespectful, and would lead to resentment quickly. particularly if others are compressed at the other end.
And Pres of Faffghanistan is going into my lexicon too. Is there a special place in hell reserved for the person that needs to service part of their bike before riding and then also needs everyone to empty their packs to find the right sized Torx to do it?
Is there a special place in hell reserved for the person that needs to service part of their bike before riding and then also needs everyone to empty their packs to find the right sized Torx to do it?
There was a guy in my university MTB club who was like that. Turns up to the start - can you just hold on while I service the suspension pivots? Oh I bought some new brake pads in the way over, will you just wait while I fit them?
It was also the early days of adjustable suspension so at the top and bottom of every hill there'd be more fettling while he optimised the suspension for the next bit of trail.
Just like most of the others above, I don't mind the odd one-off late arrival, but I tend not to plan stuff with people who are known to arrive late - or when I do, to make allowance for that and
a) tell them an earlier start time
and
b) STILL allow for them arriving late
Starting with not Dave not getting there until nearer 7.15 if he’s not interested in pre ride faff.
The problem with this is it starts a lateness arms race. The perpetually late then doesn't arrive until 25 past, ready to ride at 7.40...
I'm the one who's usually late in our group, which I fully get is annoying.
The others don't start their faffing until I get there, while I arrive ready to go and wait for them to get changed..
It seems to work out
. I voted for James (this time) on that basis
Ohhh, there should be a poll? I assumed this was just a general nonsensical conversation starter (welcome on my train for the morning)
I can't see the poll though, mobile or desktop views. chrome on android 13.
The problem with this is it starts a lateness arms race. The perpetually late then doesn’t arrive until 25 past, ready to ride at 7.40…
Depends why they're late, late for everything always? Yes you're right, they'll not be on time regardless.
Late because 7pm doesn't actually fit round their day (and despite it not being great for at least as many people, has been pushed by one member of the group so they can be home in time for love island/it's 7 because it's always been 7 etc)? and pushing back will likely solve the problem.
I'm badly organized.
I still expect groups to leave on time whether I'm there or not.
Social ride, all the more reason to get there 20min early and socialize.
Rush hour, trouble getting out the house, didn't do your chores for your parents, it's not the groups job to organize a X.00 for X.15 style start time to accommodate you, tell your boss/kids/OH/parents/hamster that you need to leave 15min early.
Surely in STW land no-one should be trashing the environment and should be turning up to the ride on their bikes and ready to ride anyway 🙂
I can’t see the poll though, mobile or desktop views. chrome on android 13.
The poll is on the article linked in the first post (or rather in the post created when the article was published)
The poll is on the article linked in the first post (or rather in the post created when the article was published)
Hmmm, it distinctly wasn't but now is, wonder if the page was failing to load fully because of doddgy lner WiFi.
I have a riding pal who is frustratingly never on time. He lives really close to the meet up point, maybe 5 minutes ride, I have a 12 mile ride to get there.
Been many a cold rainy morning where after 15 minutes stood shivering that I have then sent the text saying “too wet and cold, I’m off to do my ride”.
I then get the moaning afterwards about not waiting another couple of minutes. To be fair, his wife ran in the mornings, he’d be at home with the kids. She would come home and shower before he could leave….but still annoying in the winter!
"And you run, and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking.
Racing around to come up behind you again.
The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older.
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death."
Time is a real asset. It has a value. I am not thinking "time is money"(that's a different Pink Floyd song) ... more that it is not acceptable to take someone's time away from them. Time is the scarcest resource known to man. You can't cheat it or buy more of it. You won't live forever, or ride bikes forever. Live life like you gonna die, cos you're gonna.
Time is the scarcest resource known to man. You can’t cheat it or buy more of it
You certainly can buy more of it
Some people's lives just aren't straightforward, for all sorts of reasons. The ride they get to (eventually) might be the thing keeping them together in the rest of their life.
With known offenders I just arrange to meet 15 minutes before I intend to lead the ride and mostly they then turn up 15 minutes late and so on time if that makes sense?
Club I used to ride with has 4 or 5 different meeting places.
Must of them have plenty of little loops in the forest nearby.
So as long as they know there's still someone on their way, they'll just go and try some of the local loops for 20 minutes.
If they don't know you're coming, they won't wait. 6pm and gone.
Or if you're a dick about it, they're gone.
Whatever the verdict, it's a good photo used in the article.
Some people’s lives just aren’t straightforward, for all sorts of reasons. The ride they get to (eventually) might be the thing keeping them together in the rest of their life.
Comes down to the "do you think your time is more valuable than the persons your wasting" point though.
Whatabout if they're really looking forward to that ride, and now it's half an hour shorter.
Whatabout if the thing that's holding their life together is straight after the ride and now they're missing it because someone didn't get organized.
And let's be honest, their life isn't falling apart, they've just hit snooze for the 8th time and didn't check their tyre pressure the night before.
"Wheels is wheels" we leave at 18:15 sharp, faff or no faff, late or not. Them's the rules, everyone knows them. It's all done in good humour but it is done that way with good reason, or we'd be stood around chatting until closing time!
That said, occasional lateness with a good excuse is tolerated, but it will cost you the first round in the pub after the ride...
Like a few have said, one off / infrequent / due to circumstances outside their control* - shit happens.
Frequent / habitual lateness - let them know it's not on if they're a mate. If they're a random or just an acquaintence then just let them know that you'll not be waiting around or dont arrange to ride with them when you want to be leaving on time.
I no longer arrange rides with a couple of mates (yes, I do consider them to be mates) due to their inability to be remotely on time (record was over an hour late - they kept messaging to say they were only 20 mins away, then 15 mins, then still 15 mins, nearly there, etc).
I'll still ride with the if they arrange something but I dont invite them on rides any more.
Alternative option for me is to meet at my house for the start of a ride. Then I'm not stood around getting bored / frustrated waiting for them and can maybe do something useful (or just sit having a cuppa and reading a book) until they turn up.
"It's only a few minutes, who cares?" A few minutes isn't what we're talking about - it's the "few minutes" that are actually 15 or 20 or 30 minutes. I've got plenty of other stuff I need (not want!) to do with my time and my riding (or walking or whatever) time is valuable to me - don't be so selfish as to waste that for me.
I wonder if those that are happy to be late or happy to put up with lateness by others have less going on (maybe retired, part time / flexible workers) and dont have the time pressures that some do?
* by "outside their control" I dont mean being too ****less to set off on time when you KNOW the journey will take you longer due to time of day, or having ignored the vital maintenance on the bike that they know needed to be done before the next ride then expecting people to wait for them to fix stuff in the carpark.
Maybe all this makes me a time-nazi as far as some are concerned. I genuinelyt dont care - as the people that feel that way clearly have no respect for other people's time which IS rude AND thoughtless.
If you just ride with people, then yeah go ride with other people if it's not working. If people are always late, just be late yourself, they'll be there when you gte there then!
I ride with actualy friends. They or I would not GAS if someone was late. We always have a good catchup first anyway.
Thread and article is clearly just click bait anyway, to insight a 'discussion'....Next one will be, "so James turned up to our weekly ride with his new dog/kid/someone on a BSO...."
Said, I was gonna take some flowers to my neighbor
But I ran out of time
Didn't wanna show up to the party empty-handed
But I ran out of time
Said, I'll walk the dog a little further than the driveway tonight
The extra mile
Thought I'd send a card with my condolences
But damn, I just ran out of time
Intentions only get you so far
What if I'm just a selfish prick?
No regard
I'm always running out of time
I'm always running out of time
Nevermind, I hit the snooze on my alarm 20 times
I was just so tired
One off life happens.
Reguarly then you get left behind.
My group arranges rides by start riding time and it’s upto individuals to determine how much pre riding faff time they want and arrive appropriately early
For any reasonable sized group ride there are those who need to leave by a certain time.
We have seperate threads for group rides and chat... so of you end up delayed you're meant to inform the ride planning chat.
This allows everyone the same courtesy, we know who's meant to turn up and who just changed their mind etc. ... and allows other planning if needed. It used to be "does anyone know if xxx is actually coming or not"... then after waiting 1/2 hour after wheels rolling they had changed there mind...
Strangely perhaps?? the habitually late ones refuse to use the Ride Planning Chat... then complain when we leave without them.
one of the kids needs a poo
How does this work then? The child is to young to poo on their own, but you are about to go out & leave them alone while you are riding a bike? Can't your wife/partner attend to this?
We have one rider who occasionally joins us who is habitually late. He'll often still be at home when the ride is due to start, and he lives 40 minutes drive away. Fortunately, we all have mobile phones so we start riding and tell him where we are, or where to meet us when he finally arrives. (More of a problem if we aren't local, but normally not a huge problem.)
I think a good compromise is having a culture of the ride leaving on time - but also planning and sharing the route in advance.
I guess this works a bit better for road rides than MTB but some of my best training sessions have been chasing down the group when I've missed the start of the ride.
Can’t your wife/partner attend to this?
Depends. If my partner had had a sh11ty day and our child had done an explosive poo just before I was disappearing to have a nice time with my mates, I’d have at least dealt with it before I left. On other occasions she’d have kicked me out of the door and told me to have a nice time.
I think a good compromise is having a culture of the ride leaving on time – but also planning and sharing the route in advance.
Much as I was very against lateness in an earlier post, I'd agree that it can be ride-dependent. On a regular evening/night ride where there's a core group plus some more occasional hangers on, I'd be leaving on time every time. It's a weeknight, it's local trails, everyone is time crunched, you've got 2hrs to ride, back to the pub then back home. No messing, you leave on time.
For a more one-off ride, say a big day out where you've driven to a trail centre or something, I'd be less bothered about being 10-15 minutes out although I'd expect a suitable ride start time to be set to accommodate the route plus contingencies.
Me and my wife are slightly late for almost everything. We are always trying to fit 'one more job' in... People just tell us an earlier time now so it generally works out just fine.
I'm not late for rides though but I am mostly just in time...
Me and my wife are slightly late for almost everything. We are always trying to fit ‘one more job’ in… People just tell us an earlier time now so it generally works out just fine.
I'm genuinely curious to understand the "other side" of this debate.
How does it make you feel, when you know that you're making other people wait? When I'm late I really feel bad that others are waiting for me.
Doesn't it bother you that other people now treat you a bit like a child, having to tell a white lie to get you there on time?
All you Jonny come latelys, do you have this lackadaisical attitude to timekeeping in all areas of your lives?
Work, meetings, weddings, funerals?
I feel quite strongly about this.
I’m time poor and really struggle with people who are late. If the ride starts at 7pm, by 7:05pm I want to be moving. I’ve likely got a limited amount of time to use and so want to maximise the time riding/running/whatever and minimise the time spent on a car park.
I also think it’s pretty damn rude just to assume others can wait.
Got faffing to be do, or bits of bike to fix? Fine, do it before the ride. The ride starts when the ride starts, if you’re still putting your brake pads in at this time it’s your issue and not mine.
yes @imnotverygood:
How does this work then? The child is to young to poo on their own, but you are about to go out & leave them alone while you are riding a bike? Can’t your wife/partner attend to this?
Came to say just this. If your kid is at "help to poo" age then that's your partner's job that one night.
My general rule of thumb is to not ride with anyone who is a parent to a school age kid or younger.
And, yes, most of my rides now are solo...
for every person who makes the start late, there will be more people who need the ride to end on time.
if you can’t make it, you can’t make it. assuming that the start can’t be changed.
i usually ride alone. group rides are fun but the panic mechanics annoy me. mainly because they leave it to the last minute so that someone else will do it for them. which i would, if they’d arrived on time.
I ride with actualy friends. They or I would not GAS if someone was late. We always have a good catchup first anyway.
Where we my actual friends value my time enough to be on time. And know that if they’re not they won’t complain that I don’t wait.
And don’t you catchup on the ride?
I ride with a group of people for whom I think time runs differently.
There are never on time. I will now only plan rides where there are fun things within a few minutes of the start point so I can go and session a trail or something while I wait. Or if we are meeting at some woods, I just turn up and ride, then go meet them when they arrive.
Unsuprisingly, my riding is progressing much quicker and I am fitter too.
Me and my wife are slightly late for almost everything. We are always trying to fit ‘one more job’ in…
I have a friend who used to be like this. I refer to him as a time optimist.
He would work everything back from the meeting time and realise he could 'just do X' before getting ready to meet. The know X took a certain amount of time, but that time did not include getting stuff out/putting away. His journeys were always calculated in optimial conditions. Therefore he would always be late - between 10 and 30 minutes consistently.
I know people who always turn up early for everything , they even set off well before their planned departure time just in case; early for being early. They then have to hang about for ages waiting for the event to start. Really they are just doing to themselves what latecomers in the OP's scenario do to them. They don't appear to mind.
@chickenman - I'm guilty of this*. However - it's something I do to myself rather than something I do to others so I'm OK with it.
* I do tend to aim for minutes worth of earliness, not tens of so it's a few minutes of kicking around waiting.
Also - social anxiety means I really, REALLY hate turning up to a pub / bar etc early and being the first one. So I intentionally arrive a little late. The internal conflict that this causes is quite amusing, even to myself.
The know X took a certain amount of time, but that time did not include getting stuff out/putting away. His journeys were always calculated in optimial conditions. Therefore he would always be late – between 10 and 30 minutes consistently.
I had a riding buddy like this. I remember multiple occasions when he'd call his wife to say he'd be home "in an hour" because he was (driving on the M6) 70 miles away from home - he never, ever factored in the stupid traffic on the M6 or the slower speeds once off the motorway.
Invariably, he'd be at least half an hour late and his wife would get the hump.
I pointed out he should tell his wife a deliberately pessimistic time then she'd (presumably!) be pleased* he actually got home earlier than expected
*shocked, more likely...
For a midweek local group ride then five minutes wait max.
A weekend ride where people have had to travel there is different. 15 minutes unless prior warning that someone is running late.
Sorry but some people will always be late and everyone else has managed to get there on time.
People need to exercise a little more patience.
But perhaps it would help all parties if there was a time leeway. OK, we're riding at 7pm, but once everyone is there, shit talked, tyres/brakes/jellybabies checked, time has slipped on a little bit.
20 mins is nothing.
If you're getting all upset about it and dare one say 'snowflaky' then ride yourself, or set an earlier time, or even add a set leeway. Here for 7, ride at 7.30.
.
Somewhere in Dave's lifetime I foresee a heart attack coming on. Brought about by getting upset over nowt.
Consistent tardiness is just disrespectful and plain rude.
It's the people who turn with the same issue with their bike they had the week before that really annoy me. Spending 20 minutes the night before prepping your bike and kit is nothing 😉
If someone wants to talk shit for 20 minutes before a ride starts then arrive 20 minutes earlier 😕
I'm only late for stuff I hate doing like work and the dentist. For a ride I'm champing at the bit, I'm so excited. I'd ride my bike all day, everyday if I could.
My general rule of thumb is to not ride with anyone
who is a parent to a school age kid or younger.
My version's better.
If you’re getting all upset about it and dare one say ‘snowflaky’ then ride yourself, or set an earlier time, or even add a set leeway. Here for 7, ride at 7.30.
that drives me crackers. If its that then the ride time is 7.30. I'll turn up at 7:25 ready to go. the eternally late will still turn up at 7:45
5 minutes before 5 minutes before.
Wait 5 minutes for general greetings and chat.
Turn on a tracker.
See you in the pub 🙂
I'll turn up when I turn up*.
This is because it's me and my box of bike tools that will be required to put at least one bike into a "working" condition before the ride. And, as likely as not, I'll be the one carrying out the trail-side repair/donating an inner tube/etc during the ride when the same or other bike falls apart.
As long as everyone can turn up, I'm happy, and if I or anyone does arrive late, it gives and oppo. to crank out the "practising for my/your funeral" line.
* I typically arrive first.
They then have to hang about for ages waiting for the event to start. Really they are just doing to themselves what latecomers in the OP’s scenario do to them. They don’t appear to mind.
Difference there is the inconvenience is only to them.
If I'm running late then I expect to ride alone but I agree with the Germans that one cannot be a 'little late'. There again I plan meeting people in car parks to hand over bikes for a living and being late is unforgivable to paying customers. Strangely I don't plan anything for others during my leisure time.