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Is 280 watts still the target for MoreSTW?
I’m happy to do 1:30 if it helps give other guys a longer recovery?
that will be fine with me 🤣I’m happy to do 1:30 if it helps give other guys a longer recovery?
Happy to go with that @w00dster. I will post up order and turn lengths in the morning. I’ll dig out our last time as well.
Right here is the turn order and pull lengths for tonight. We had the exact same team a few weeks ago for this course expect Martin is in instead TRolo. Our time then was 42:20 so we have a good target to aim for. We went for 300w pulls on that instance but burnt out quite few riders in the process so will stick with the 280 and increase to 300w if everyone feels good on the second lap. We had a 21 minute start delay then as well.
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slowpuncheur will monitor for overtakes - I will lead the overtakes through with w00dster covering the rear in case anyone drops off. Northumberland avenue is the only hill of significance. Lets blob up for that one at about 3w/kg. I think that's about it - see you in the pen later.
Hi - I've signed up for this evening's race. Very promptly as @drew observed.
Some things you should know about @mbs.
I'm using a Wattbike Atom which seem to have a 6-8 second delay to any sort of gross power inputs I make - I don't know if this is the same for a bike/smart turbo trainer combo. This means I have to try and preempt any surges made by the rest of the team or changes resulting from gradient changes. This makes undulating courses very challenging for me.
Until recently I could hardly hear any instructions - because of the noise the bike and fan make. I've now got some earphones which help a lot, but slip out sometimes when I get sweaty.
I really don't mind which team I'm in, but I know my physiology won't let me do sustained high power bursts without a suitable rest. These are the type of sessions I struggle with when following a Zwift workout plan. What I don't want to do is let the team down or take the place of a more able or better suited rider.
Cheers
Martin
Hi @mbs I think the delay on your Wattbike is certainly greater than most of us experience. Certainly my Kickr Core responds in a couple of seconds if that, so I can understand how it's a difficult task for you. Having to concentrate on that instead of target watts or just pushing on must be a pain. Hopefully, the more structured nature of MoreSTW will make it more predictable and the course tonight looks better suited to address your issue. See (and hopefully hear) you later.
Yeah don’t think it’s usual, my Neo is very responsive (although I have Zwift on 3s average). Is it a known problem or something with your setup? Might be worth asking in a Wattbike forum/FB group. Just had a quick google & apparently the Atom has “Zwift certification” which I can’t imagine it would get if everyone had that problem as it sounds really frustrating?
@mbs I’m on an Atom too...don’t suffer from the lag you describe. Are you sure it’s the Atom and not just the Zwift drag effect? That said, I’ve always found the rollers a nightmare on Zwift-I’m either out the back or put too much power on and shoot out the front! I think as with any game the more you ‘play’ the better you become at adjusting to surges. The TTT should be a great leveller as their shouldn’t be any big surges. My agenda for tonight is to keep a steadier power, was all over the place last week as I struggled to get past second wheel, or go too far out the front but I’m sure that’s a Zwift thing rather than Atom.
Hi @mbs this is a team event so never worry about taking the place of any rider. The way it is run the first 16 take the slots and the team selection is about making it balanced and if any riders have a preference about which team they would like to ride on.
We have had a fairly settled line up on MoreSTW recently which is good.
If you would prefer a different length of pull just let me know and I can adjust accordingly - a few seconds delay here and there wont make a difference - we just want to make sure we aren't trying to outsprint each other!
Any issues on hearing calls then I can switch to a text based system with:
'M6' signifying the start of your pull for sixty seconds and 'J3' signifying the end of your pull and the start of Jack's for 30 seconds. It is easy for me to type out then! Sounds like we don't need to do that tonight though as you hopefully have comms sorted out. Discord works well for gamers when they don't have fans and turbos running in the background!
See you all in the pen tonight. I am going to do my warm up in the pen controlling my trainer of something else so will likely not log on to discord until 19:55. I will start a timer though so no need to worry about that. We can go over the pull order then and cover any questions.
Looking forward to it! Hopefully we can improve on the last time!
Really sorry guys but something has come up and I won't be able to make tonight's TT. Have a great ride everyone. I should be back to full attendance next week a I also missed Tue night this week.
The something that came up has now very thankfully gone away so I will make tonight's TTT. See you in the pen.
My agenda for tonight is to keep a steadier power, was all over the place last week as I struggled to get past second wheel, or go too far out the front but I’m sure that’s a Zwift thing rather than Atom.
You and me both!
My agenda for tonight is to keep a steadier power, was all over the place last week as I struggled to get past second wheel, or go too far out the front but I’m sure that’s a Zwift thing rather than Atom.
You and me both!
Oh, OK - I was planning to attack repeatedly 'til I break you all and solo to victory but if you insist, I'll cling on to the back instead
😃
Wonder if Ineos might sign me up. I'm becoming the human embodiment of marginal gains:
"Your estimated FTP has increased by 1w"
Nice job.
Enjoyed tonight’s ride, tried to keep to 280 watts without spiking to much. The 1 min 30 suits me, was a shame I had the pull on the two ramps, was hard to judge my power so ended up with a small split.
Here’s my intervals....
apologies to team STW tonight, lost internet connection and all other riders on the screen, kept riding hard but by the time everyone reappeard i'd lost about 5 seconds and was tangled in the group behind, pushed hard for a bit but wasn't gaining ground quickly enough, lost connection with phone as well, so was trying to inform you on discord to just push on. As penance i rode the rest around a lonely London as tempo, apart from easing off to let teams past and get away, then saw the next team catching was MORESTW about 35 seconds back so picked up the effort to avoid being caught!!!
@karnali - Sorry we lost you. Presumably that was worse than last week, when you could at least see us ?
Anyway, you're doing it wrong. When riding on your own you draft overtaking teams and then call them weaklings when they can't drop you 😃
That guy was a dick. I think he thought he was on a TT bike so wasn't drafting. Glad he appeared to be on lap 2 so went as we crossed the line.
Just a point from the start last night as we had an issue. With such a long delay the trainer going to sleep is a risk if your not pedaling. To avoid that after the event starts you can open the pairing screen and keep warming up. As long as your in the pairing screen your avatar well not move and you can pedal away.
You lot were really unlucky to attract a clingon with such a long start delay. I'm prone to telling myself that the benefit of long waits is that they get those people well clear. Obviously not (although multi lap doesn't help either).
I am a bit torn about last night. Comms were good - mbs seemed to be able to hear no problems and hopefully it made your contribution easier, you certainly didn't fly of the front or drop of the back.
We seemed to be in sync as well, the right people were on the front at the right time and people seemed to position them selves well as they knew when there turn was coming up.
But...we were 36 seconds slower than when we last did and most of our average powers were down for the same course. I think perhaps we got a bit too comfortable and need to push on a bit if we can. I could certainly do a 90 second pull to help. The 36 seconds could have been lost when the group split slightly on that last little hill and then we had to regroup.
Next week is out and back again - going to be a very tough TTT course. Might be a case of doing pulls until the Volcano then blobbing up and surviving! Hopefully we have a better start time!
Robbo, did we not do 300watt pulls previously?
As a top of my head guess 36 seconds overall is about 1.5 seconds per KM, not much in it, but the 300 watts might have helped.
Appreciate that is harder for the other guys though and the ride needs to be enjoyable, not sure fighting for 200 or 250 place is worth burning the team out for.
Just a point from the start last night as we had an issue. With such a long delay the trainer going to sleep is a risk if your not pedaling. To avoid that after the event starts you can open the pairing screen and keep warming up. As long as your in the pairing screen your avatar well not move and you can pedal away.
Yes, that was me. Huge apologies to the team.
I don't have much luck. I was in the pairing screen, and my devices did go to sleep after 10min. However, I succesfully woke them back up and zwift said they were all paired and connected ok. When I went to come out of the pairing screen with about 20 seconds to go Zwift decided that it needed to do some "Searching" despite everything being connected. Nothing I tried could get Zwift to do anything other than endlessly search. So frustrating.
The reason I didn't keep spinning whilst in the pairing screen is I understand the theory that you don't move forwards whilst in the pairing screen, but in the past.... I have. Other than avoiding TTT with huge delays (wouldn't we all like to do that!), I'm not sure what more I could do.
@w00dster yep you are right.
I felt that I could contribute more so could perhaps look at 90 second pulls myself rather than burning out other members of the team. Next week I am going to be more of a limiter on the volcano climb in any case. We need to shelter some riders to save themselves for maximum effort on the volcano.
you definitely don't move in the pairing screen, at least it's never happened to me & I've never seen it verified (it's a very popular trick for this event!)The reason I didn’t keep spinning whilst in the pairing screen is I understand the theory that you don’t move forwards whilst in the pairing screen, but in the past…. I have.
Once I went onto the pairing screen WITHOUT my HRM being paired, it auto-paired and then (presumably sensing it's job was done 😃) the screen timed out automatically without me noticing, I was about 500m up the road before I twigged 🤣
No worries @rj2dj, just one of those things. Very frustrating for you I bet!
You shouldn't move in pairing, mine never has (but then this is zwift and weird bugs are all over the shot). There is a jerk on screen as the event starts as your rider comes off the virtual turbo and puts its foot down.
I don't think I could cope with 18 minutes of doing nothing, legs would go to sleep :D.
It was a good ride for me with MoreSTW in the sense that I managed to pace myself better than usual & avoid any mad peaky power dashes to avoid being dropped or to get back to the front of the group for my pull! Although yes average power for me was down & I had enough left at the end for a sprint (which is unusual!) so I could probably have gone a bit harder (although how much without burning out is the question!) Perhaps we should've upped the pace slightly for the 2nd lap. Enjoyed it though, was a nice change not to be constantly battling against being spat out the back 🤣
Comms were excellent too which was a big improvement - I could hear clearly everything that was said about 99% of the time!
I did a 20 minute TT warm up in the pen using TrainerRoad to control the trainer. Started it at 19:35 and finished it at 19:55. Did it all in the pairing screen with the controllable trainer disconnected. Then closed TR and reconnected the controllable trainer with no issues.
But sometimes it can cause issues so something to be aware off.
Robbo, maybe you and I aim for 300 watt average for 90 seconds on the flat, the other guys continue with 280. The draft should keep us together and if it doesn’t we can always ease back to 280.
Climbs are the big difference, my 280 watts is about 4.2 W/kg, so if I’m doing that up a climb we will get big gaps. I noticed that last night, then it takes time for us to regroup and we lose the impetuous. Might be worth making the call mid ride for someone else to take up each climb? I’m not normally mentally alert enough, I’m just plodding on with my 280 watts until told otherwise!!
Next week will be harder to manage, that's for sure. If it's the same team again, I think @wOOdster, @mbs and I are probably in a stronger position to help on the hills. Maybe two near the front and one sweeping in case people start to drop. However, we still need to go at a sustainable pace to get everyone over the volcano. I think we are starting to better understand each others strengths and weaknesses so I see us getting better/quicker because of this. Agree that comms were good last night.
The pairing screen warm-up thing doesn’t work using an IPad. Unless I’m doing it wrong.
All in, considering we were a 5 man team (for the most part) thought we performed well. Pretty consistent as we finished 199th. Up a place from last week!
it does (or at least did, I used to do it before moving over to ATV about a month ago!)The pairing screen warm-up thing doesn’t work using an IPad. Unless I’m doing it wrong.
Hmm maybe more practice required. Last time I tried it the avatar started moving. Didn’t do it again..don’t want to incur the wrath of Phil
Yeah pairing with the iPad works, that’s what I use.
But you have to select pair, not sit at the screen before it.
It’s cocked up one me once, when I left the pair mode it took an age for anything to happen and then said Leaving xxxx World and returning to Xxxx and plopped me back in the normal zwift place.
Teams are entered for this week. Thursday, 7.40pm, one lap of Out and Back Again.
All welcome - enter category A here: https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1899809
I'll aim to post lineups by Wednesday.
bump
I’m in, don’t mind the volcano, it’s not particularly long or steep! Preferable to a totally flat route IMO, at least you get a tiny rest on the down!
I'm in.
I'm back, lets see what 3 weeks of doing nothing has done for my fitness. I imagine nothing but massive gains.
DS notes for this week.
9 so far. Any more takers?
Join category A here: https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1899809
I'm not looking forward to that volcano. I may have to do a Captain Oates at that point.
I've also got a situation with my 2 year old Neo 2 which may be knocking on deaths door - it lost resistance twice during the second event yesterday, like extended wheel slip for several seconds, causing me to cruise round from about half way. This with a smell of burning is known to be a death knell for Neo's, although I could not smell anything. Some people have rigged up cooling fans, I may have to look into that.
Jacks original Neo which I bought and fixed for £50 is still going strong.
Turbo death is an expensive problem right now @haloric. I'd be rigging up those fans. I'm gonna guess that the burning smell is part an important part of the bad possibility though, so without it there's hope.
Will Garmin help?
What did you have to do to Jack's to fix it?
Sorry savoyad, not me this week - going to finish too late for me to get to an online meeting. Can't say I'm all that disappointed, looking at the route 😬
Garmin may help, but since its out of warranty its expensive, like £700 for a 2nd hand trainer. The Neo group on FB is full of people with burnout issues and different warranty behaviours. I've got all the kit to replace the bearings so may have a go at taking it apart, cleaning and putting back together, as well as a mounted fan to improve airflow.
I got Jacks one of the FB group for £50, Garmin had diagnosed it as 'burn out' and out of warranty to some chap, he forked out for a new Neo 2T. He claimed it worked when pedalled but not via the power brick (which he had replaced) and that was true. I tested the power brick and that was fine, took the Neo apart and soldered in a new power jack socket and its been perfect ever since, either the socket or the cable were flaky, got lucky.
wow! The guy must’ve had more money that sense! That would be the obvious thing to check if it was otherwise 100% working (or get a mate/pay someone to check it!)I tested the power brick and that was fine, took the Neo apart and soldered in a new power jack socket and its been perfect ever since, either the socket or the cable were flaky, got lucky.
My Neo (one of the very first ones) has never “slipped”, have always sometimes got that burning smell but only when putting out big watts... assumed that’s just what they did 🤣 Hopefully got a lot of life left in it, if it did die I’d be very tempted by the Neo Bike tho (not that you can get one right now anyway)
Both @mbs and Jack are now registered.
None of us are looking forward to it, in the usual way.
Start delays are:
MoreSTW 9mins
STW 13mins
Delays are not as bad as last week but we will be out on the road for a decent amount of time tonight.
Awaiting team announcement but have a rough idea of plan as follows:
First part through the desert: normal rotations
From the desert to the volcano: rotations done by the stronger climbers, to rest the those who will be setting the pace on the volcano.
Volcano: go at the pace of the slowest climber - this needs to be a sustainable pace for them as there is still a way to go after this.
Top of the volcano: make sure we are all together before the descent
Bottom of the volcano: resume normal rotations
KOM reverse: as above for volcano
Final few kms: Rotations with whoever is still able to pull or shelter in the group if you need to
If we go to fast then we will burn out people on the two climbs and it doesn't look like we will have a full team of 8 so we need to be careful for attrition with the potential for technical difficulties as we need to get 4 across the line.
I would rather get to the top of the volcano with people being (relatively) fresh so we can push on in the second half than having people blowing out of their arse and us struggling to complete.
Any thoughts/opinions welcome 🙂
Hi - I've signed up for this evenings race. I'm happy to do 1 min pulls for up to about 25km. If that coincides with the volcano climb I might be able to push it a bit further - for some reason my power drop off isn't that bad going up hills! After that I suspect I'll be hanging on for dear life. Longer races are not my forte.
@nixie are you playing tonight? or back on your normal team?
cheers @mbs survival is the name of the game tonight! A lot of Zwift racing is around the 40/45 min mark so anything longer tends to be attritional. A slower start could pay dividends in hoovering up spent teams later in the day.
As above, pacing will be the key thing tonight. The hills aren't suited to everyone so can I politely suggest that if you need a breather and it's your turn, don't be afraid to miss one out? It's better to do that and recover than leave it too late and just blow up. I think the different characteristics of us as riders benefits the team and whilst I'm OK going up those hills, I'll be sitting behind the diesel engines on the way back down and on the flat! 🙂
@robbo1234biking I'm going to be coughing my lungs up in an espresso pain train with BRT tonight.
very much this 😂Longer races are not my forte.
yeah we want to avoid burning anyone out if poss! The problem I've had in the past though, is that passes require a bit of a power surge, and late on in the race I often don't have it left in the legs any more 😭A slower start could pay dividends in hoovering up spent teams later in the day.
I wonder if we might try a different passing strategy tonight - should we get to pass anyone.
Our usual approach is fine where there is a largish disparate speed difference, as its easier to make a clean pass, but when we creep up on a similar speed team..
I find that we accelerate too soon and too strong on on the front, and get strung out before the pass, leading to the last few (normally me and my minder) struggling through, and the group wondering if we all got through, and being a reasonable distance away from the last rider.
If we were 'led up' to the acceleration point as usual, but on the 'go' word (say 10m back) we accelerate from the rear of the group, with the rear riders riding through our team as the accelerate, but the passed riders only accelerate as they see they are about to be passed.
This way we should pass as a blob, making it less likely to get caught in the passed team, and not a long line.
This will also lead to the stronger riders being aware of where the slower riders are, because they will be alongside or in front for a short while as we hit the tail of the team in front.
It does require the rear riders to put in the effort first, but it should ultimately result in less split drama and total effort.
Just a thought. If we are on a hill, all bets are off.
@haloric's plan looks good.
I'm just struggling with teams. Bear with me...
this is actually what I thought the plan was anyhow, but I think sometimes when the dogs at the front get the scent it all goes out the window 🤣If we were ‘led up’ to the acceleration point as usual, but on the ‘go’ word (say 10m back) we accelerate from the rear of the group, with the rear riders riding through our team as the accelerate, but the passed riders only accelerate as they see they are about to be passed.
All sounds good - I will try and remember when we come up for an overtake.
It's looking like this - plan accordingly...
STW @phil56, @munkeymadness, @dangeourbrain, @w00dster, @yanboss, @mbs
MoreSTW @slowpuncheur, @robbo1234biking, @drew, @haloric, @zilog6128, Jack
I'm aware I'm violating some people's preferences, but that's how it's falling for now. Any more A's or B's want to jump in and make my life easier? If so, enter Cat A here:
https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1899809
STW are at +13 minutes
MoreSTW are at +9 minutes
Thanks @savoyad.
I will have a look at the numbers and come up with some suggestions at least for the first section.
It's been quote a while since I've been out to play on a Thursday, (or zwift full stop for that matter) have there been any changes to the format for STW or is it still "do what Phil tells you "?
@savoyad is their space in more stw, ive had a tough run session today and wouldn't last in stw
@karnali sign up - there is certainly either space in MoreSTW or time for us to persuade you STW will not, on this occasion, be too much for you.
I've already dumped @w00dster in it, @yanboss has been off the bike for a while, @mbs would probably prefer MoreSTW as well. I'd like to get the Bs right across the two teams. It's hard today for some reason. A queue of people who'd really favour MoreSTW might indeed result in reinforcing MoreSTW - but it might also result in STW becoming a more manageable ride.
If you haven't been on for a day or two, there's a Zwift update to do. Give yourselves a few more minutes prep.
Good point @slowpuncheur.
It makes a change which matters as well: new pack dynamics are now standard in all events. The extent of the change is not actually obvious to me, but something is different now. It seems like pacelines are more important but also easier to manage, and blobs are less effective than previously. No promises though.
I am going to leave it fairly fluid for tonight as follows.
Pull order
Robbo - 60s @ 280w
Slowpuncheur - 60s @ 280w
Jack - 30s @ 270w
Haloric - 30s @ 270w
Zilog - 30s @ 270w
Drew - 30s @ 270w
If Karnali joins us then 60s pulls at 280w.
Aim is to revert to pulls on the flat, blob on the short hills. Through the esses hopefully we can give haloric and Jack rest before we hit the volcano.
On the Volcano slowpuncheur will lead us up at about 3.2/3.3 w/kg - the draft works so this should put Haloric and Jack at about 3.0 w/kg. We don't want to exceed that as we want to stay together.
After that it is fluid - see how it goes. Keep the comms up and let me know if you want a rest from the rotation. Similar approach up the reverse KOM but it is steeper on the first section so lets go at a good pace for everyone.
If you do join us Karnali then you can cover the back and then perhaps swap with Paul when we hit the flat bit of the volcano in the middle.
Oh and check your tags - there are quite a few wrong ones!
@karnali I can't put you in MoreSTW, it'll drag them up a coffee class into frappe. Let's leave them in latte.
So you ride STW - but trust me (I'm basing this on the team numbers & composition) and @phil56 (he's a good road captain) that it won't be inappropriately intense tonight. You can control some of it yourself as well by sitting in. Providing draft is a good service to others.
And @w00dster this is a chance for you to move across to MoreSTW. I think you should ride STW tonight - to help get the intensity right amongst other things. But I know you have a standing preference to ride with MoreSTW. If you insist, go ahead and choose to ride with them. Let @robbo1234biking and @phil56 know your choice - last minute in discord is probably fine; both know what they'll do with you if you are there! If I've got these calls wrong, tell me after the event...
Final lineups:
STW, + 13 minutes: @phil56, @munkeymadness, @karnali, @dangeourbrain, @w00dster, @yanboss, @mbs
MoreSTW, + 9 minutes: @slowpuncheur, @robbo1234biking, @drew, @haloric, @zilog6128, Jack
Check your tags. It's chaos at the moment. Direct link: https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=1899809
@savoyad I’ll ride with STW and hang on as long as I can. I’ll update my tag now.
I’ve upped my mileage over the last few weeks and my legs feel dead, be interesting to see how I get on.
Thanks for sorting, I'll see how long I can hang on, and hopefully no drop outs this week
@w00dster @karnali You'll be fine guys, tonight needs to be a steady ride to last the distance. The plan is to ride at a pace everyone can sustain and get everyone to the end together
The key to this is communication - I'll check, but make sure you let me know how you're feeling.
We'll work hard, but not to the point it stops being fun
Cheers folks, it's been a while but i enjoyed that. Been a while since I've been able to make it but pleased I could this evening.
That was great work to stay on briggs and as ever well done Phil keeping him with us.
Really enjoyed that! Probably my best TTT in terms of pacing and feeling good throughout the whole ride... it was a tough pace, but sustainable (apart from right at the end when we were tussling with that other team 🤣) Did struggle consistently hitting target watts for the pulls though... overshooting, then under, then massively over as I tried to compensate 😂 Does everyone else use 1s or 3s power on Zwift for these?
I'musimg 1s power and seemed to have loads of jumping around issues tonight. When I thought I was putting in the effort for 400w I found it reading 500w more than a few times.
thanks STW enjoyed that tonight after a tough run session and first swim back in the lake (brrrr 7 degrees is cold for me) I did find my watts a bit all over the place as well and also slower to respond so did lots of yoyoing through the group. Also i must learn to draft I'm sure it would make things much easier than constantly riding like a stabilser out to the side.
thanks Phil for the slightly easier pace tonight and excellent riding by the other Martin to hang in there on the 2 climbs.
I use 3 second power but would say I struggled tonight to get a consistent output as well. Something Zwift updated in the background perhaps?
Anyway onto the TTT. Well done MoreSTW - that was a great ride. I think we paced it really well. Dont think there was more than a 5m gap at any point which on that route for that amount of time is an amazing effort. We must of got the pace right as we were able to stay together. Great comms as well. We had to lend two of our team to STW tonight (mbs and w00dster) but we seem to be settling in well working together.
We expected to keep STW away until the Volcano so to keep you guys at bay until the KOM reverse was pretty good (from our perspective). We got a little tangled on the descent - thought w00dster was joining our team but forgot you are pretty lightweight so we caught you quick.
I think other than STW only one other team passed us. We made about 4/5 passes I think and pulling through from the back seemed to work really well. We didnt seem to get knackered or have to overdo it on the passes at all.
Some screen shots from the evening.
Nice paceline at the start
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Climbing the Volcano - good pace setting by slowpuncheur
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The descent of the Volcano
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Just beating STW to the Reverse KOM banner!
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Robbo, I was doing over 500 watts and couldn’t break free from you guys, Phil was “asking me politely” to get a move on, but it was like I was riding in sand.
I think my brain switched off and couldn’t work out who was who.
In terms of my performance, it was tough. Only 237 watts for the duration which is low for me. But I really struggled to hold anything over 260 watts. I’ve upped my mileage, Tuesdays training ride included 300 watts for 2 minutes at 60rpm, that’s like a squat work out. I then did 30 miles Wednesday morning, legs were really heavy feeling today.
Excellent effort by Martin, much better determination than me. I’d have folded and pretended it was my connection!!