You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Very happy with that, especially now I realise Martin and I were the C's in a B sandwich, and everyone else was pulling us around !.
I stopped putting in turns on the front after the first 14k I think, just was conserving power as best I could.
Martin lost power to laptop, and I was starting to cramp up in the last 5 or 6 K's with the dreaded twinges of doom, so was in limp-home mode, think we could have shaved a few more secs off otherwise.
I think we passed 3 teams at least, nearly lost Martin on the last one.
Thanks for the ride.
Enjoyed that one. Managed to get a few turns on the front and we stayed really tight. The couple of passes we had went really well. Wasn’t a lot that went wrong really! I even managed to say 800km still to go on the way to the line!
Replaced the battery on my HRM and my head rate seemed lower tonight. Wonder if it has been playing up as the effort was still high. NP was 278w so def put in a good shift but felt quite fresh!
Thanks all, my legs are still cooked after Tuesday. By lap 2 I was just trying to cling on to the back. Maybe it's time for one of those rest weeks people with training plans talk about...
There's no such thing as a feeble pull. And I'm glad both teams rode together tightly. @haloric 14km of turns in that group is definitely pulling your weight. How far out did @mbs disappear? Laptop battery is a sudden way to go (it happened to me recently...).
@yanboss you've been flying (I remember you saved my race in the Tuesday night figure of 8 by cruising across a gap on the reverse KOM while I grovelled on your wheel). I'm not surprised it's catching up with you - robbo's race series is pretty intense.
And @robbo1234biking in @phil56's absence, the 800km to go call was the most important job that needed picking up. @dangeourbrain does it make it harder with the turbo misbehaving?
I enjoyed watching that on zwiftpower live anyway. But you only really find out what happened on here...
I had another false start tonight - while standing next to the bike !
Seemed like my avatar got pulled out of the pen by the draft of another group. Was doing a bit of last minute prep (filling water bottle, putting away a box that was in the way of one of my pedals) and when I looked up I was "in" a team group, doing zero watts but about half a minute up the course. My fella was right at the front in the pen and I wonder if they'd come past as a fastish blob and just pulled me out with them.
Anyway, I went to shit shortly after that. Nothing to offer the team (sorry chaps) after Tuesday's race and then 2.5 hours chasing some bigger boys round the new forest last night. I'm buggered. Our team worked really well and kept very tight. I got sucked into one group that we overtook and had to sprint a bit to escape and then something similar happened to Martin.
Great ride the whole group but esp from Woodster - seems he accidentally put the e-bike on the trainer and did some really long stints
does it make it harder with the turbo misbehaving?
Sort of. London is flat though so less of an issue.
I'd normally expect to sit around 65-70rpm in 48:10 pulling about 300W on the flat. For me that's a comfy cadence and gear, I'm a masher not a spinner.
Round London loop there are no real hills so I'd expect to pull that gear and cadence the whole way, against the extra resistance on a hill that means a decent bump in power on those short climbs.
Making the same power with the dodgy turbo needs 85-90rpm in the same gear on the flat, that's not comfy for me. Pulling needed 90 ish to make 320 or so which I kept up for about the first 10 minutes then started to flag a bit and had to drop to short pulls and longer rests. 70rpm kept me about 250w.
The big problem was every time we hit a slope the 0 additional resistance meant I had to spin faster to keep up so ended up at 95-100rpm every time there was a bit of a gradient to keep in touch. As I say, lucky London is flat as a witches tit, tons anything with hills I'd have fallen off.
It just doesn't suit my riding style to be spinning that fast even on a flat course. On anything with hills I just can't keep up. Long term it'll do me good learning to spin better I'm sure but I'm the interim it's very hard to get used to!
I had the same round Richmond on race 5, the first sprint and was at about 130rpm and barely over 500w. (137rpm for 602w on the sprint on lap 2) I just disappeared off the group at that point, once we hit the climbs it was obvious I was going backwards (100rpm average up the climbs for 350w).
Compare that with the last TT I did and I averaged 64rpm and 304w, same gearing, pancake flat.
My cadence averaged 100 and maxed out at 128 last night!
2 laps of Sand and Sequioas next week so very different! Prob my last one before Xmas unless anyone wants to ride the 10.15 slot on Xmas eve.
Yeah, average 100 cadence would kill me. If also have to change gear, and I don't like change.
I might do the early one Xmas eve. Will see.
I really enjoyed that, despite misgivings after Tueday, I actually felt quite a bit better tonight, thankfully. Tried to keep a pattern of 30 seconds effort on the front followed by 2 minutes in the pack, which worked quite well for me, just enough rest to make the effort doable, hopefully that didn't mess it up for anyone else on the team, We kept together pretty well I thought. I'll be back again for next week, but I'm not doing christmas eve. Cheers guys and good work team.
but I’m not doing christmas eve.
You see I reckon we should do Christmas eve with a [insert seasonal beverage of choice] and when ever you're not pulling on the front you have to drink.
I'd be up for that, I only said I wouldn't do it was cos it's my birthday 🙂
Great idea DB - will need to wear a kids pelican bib as I’m bound to 🤮
But that does seem like a good idea.....goes off to look in the Craft Beer too expensive thread to decide what to drink.....
goes off to look in the Craft Beer too expensive thread to decide what to drink…..
I'd suggest at least 0.05% ABV for every W of FTP that way its a little less punishing for those who may struggle to make the front...
Sounds like it time to get some Hop House 13 or Stella in then!
Just something I have seen on the WTRL Facebook group - if teams register and don’t turn up the automatic allocation of start times will start to push them into the later starting slots. Hopefully will mean that we might get some slightly better waiting times!
2 teams are entered this week, for 2 laps of sand and sequoias. Thur 7.40pm.
Everyone interested, sign up to category A here: https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1356634
This is a good course to try a team of Bs and a team of Cs this week, but let's see how signups go...
Cheers Savoyad I am in. Happy to go with a team of Bs and Cs if that is the plan. Happy to road captain the Cs (I.e start the timer) as I managed it last week without cocking it up!
I'll enter this week's ttt. I might have a last minute work/life clash which might prevent me joining in but hopefully it won't be the case.
Slow team please 😁
@savoyad - if we end up with a C/D team this week will it be automatically changed over to Mocha in the results?
Yes, it automatically reclassifies teams (other than in the platinum league) into the correct category for the results.
D's are very welcome to join us.
Some of you may have seen that this week's TTT is running as a fundraiser for World Bicycle Relief.
In fact they are offering teams time reductions (1 minute) for every Buffalo Bike (£120) donated.
It's a good cause, but as we aren't particularly results driven, our community has an existing effort to raise money for WBR, and I don't want to administer a new one, I thought it made more sense to just use this occasion as a prompt to draw all your attention to the existing link...
The Singletrack/WBR page is here: https://worldbicyclereliefuk.enthuse.com/cf/singletrack-supporting-world-bicycle-relief.
If anyone is inspired to donate, I suggest that you just do so there. No time deductions are available but the money goes to the same place in the end.
@savoyad – my usual Thursday night MTB partner is not around this week so I thought I'd give the TTT a go.
Other than signing up on the link you gave, what else do I need to know? There seems to be a lot of details around participating in this, such as use of Discord, protocols for arrival times at the start, how does the team start and form up, what bike to use (I assume not a TT bike), are we in A/B/C teams based just on our Zwiftpower W/kg, what is Mocha vs Latte?
Is there a quick guide to all this without reading all 31 pages of the thread?
Hi @j-r. Excellent news. And I'm not surprised it feels a bit like that. It makes sense once you've done it once though.
Yes, first sign up to category A here: https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1356634
I'll post teams tomorrow, and at that point I'll add all the practical info you need. In the meantime
- getting a zwiftpower account is the main hassle first time round, but that's not an issue for you. You'll need to tag yourself with the team name before the race (tag tbc and how-to tomorrow!)
- we communicate on discord. join the STW server here https://discord.gg/CccHswgX and you'll see voice channels for each TTT team. It's used for counting down the start etc. It's possible to participate without, but much better with (especially first time).
- the start process is a bodge. the organisers publish "start delays" tonight, and we have to sit still (i.e. not pedalling) AFTER it says go until our start delay has elapsed. This spreads the teams out on the road, and the results system adjusts for the delay. So you "go" at the end of that delay, and blob up with your teammates in the first few hundred metres.
- the rules assume mixed ability teams, and the coffee labels are for different mixes. we normally end up in "latte" (max Bs and rest Cs) or "frappe" (more than 3 Bs). Don't worry about it. It doesn't really matter. I allocate people to two teams based on everyone's (sometimes contradictory!) preferences each week. Your normal race categories A/B/C/D/E are not used for signup in the normal way. We generally start in A.
- bike choice. yes, road bike. The draft is essential. (BUT I think this week we might be forced on to buffalo bikes as a tie in with the WBR fundraiser)
- strategy - 4th rider across the line counts for the results. But we generally ride to get everyone to the line together. Our on road strategy is not particularly organised. I think there's support for a move towards greater organisation. We're heading that way. But that will be clear in advance of the start!
Basically, sign up, keep asking questions if you have any, and I'll try to make sure that the detail you really need (some of it repeated from here) is in the lunchtime post tomorrow!
We're on 12 riders for tomorrow (13 with @j-r, 14 if @mbs is joining us). So there's still space for at least a couple more.
Anyone lurking tempted to join in? Category A here: https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1356634
Very tempted to give it a go again. Having the flu jab in the morning so not sure if an hours vigorous exercise is the best thing to be doing. Anybody have any knowledge or experience of this?
Put my name down anyway.
Looks like we are all riding buffalo bikes tomorrow!
classic! Should be fun. Back in the day it was the fastest bike, not any more though. Explains why they were offering time bonuses for cash 😂
I had the flu shot last week and apart from a mild arm ache had no effect at all. But my wife did feel a bit under the weather for a day, s
I'm happy to stake my reputation on saying your wife feeling under the weather was in no way related to you having the flu jab. Unless you're Johnny Depp it's unlikely to be related to your mildly hurty arm either.
Looks like we're in good shape - 15 riders signed up (two big teams) and reasonable start delays (4.5 and 6.5 mins).
Still one spot available. Category A here: https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1356634
I'll post teams/tags etc at lunchtime.
Back in the day it was the fastest bike, not any more though.
The good ones are back.
Seems very low numbers in the Pens tonight (other than STW!) - people breaking up for Xmas already?!
Thanks for the reassurance J-R, just got back from having the vaccination so I’ll see how I feel later. Slightly concerned at the number of drop outs I had zwifting yesterday evening where everyone else disappeared. It must have been at least four in 40 minutes. It’s not normally a problem but happened during the first ttt I took part in so I was wondering if the time of day has anything to do with it.
Seems very low numbers in the Pens tonight (other than STW!) – people breaking up for Xmas already?!
Be just our bloody luck to make PL on Xmas eve at 7pm
Not sure how PL will work - if it includes the extra minutes that people have brought or just on pure time.
if it includes the extra minutes that people have brought or just on pure time.
Hmmmm - I wonder if i could divert that gofundme in the name of which ever stw team I'm not in and buy them all an Xmas eve PL spot. As a gift you know.
Teams for later. And I'm going to propose a structured (although still not OTT) approach, the same for both teams, which I'll put in the next post.
Team MoreSTW delay +4.5mins so off at 19:44:30, tag (MoreSTW), Discord voice TTT (MoreSTW)
@phil56 (* road captain / comms) - change your tag
@paino - change your tag
@dangeourbrain - change your tag
@w00dster
@j-r - you need to append "(MoreSTW)" to your zwiftpower name. see below!
@mahowlett - tag your name
@scaredypants
Team STW delay +6.5 minutes so off at 19:46:30, tag (STW) Discord voice TTT (STW)
@munkeymadness (* road captain / comms)
@yanboss
@trolo1234 - change your tag
@zilog
@rick - change your tag
@drew -
@haloric
@robbo1234biking
The buffalo bikes are not a problem. In fact they are lovely to ride and look suitably weird. A bit like we will on our MTBs in robbo's series. You CAN choose your wheels though, so if you are an equipment swapper (and/or esp if you usually ride a tron) think about that. I rode 808s this morning.
To change tags, go to the event page here https://www.zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=1356634 choose Settings top right, and type the full name you want including the tag (not just the tag) into the My Name field.
Here's the strategy for today. We can debrief after. This course is very, very well suited to doing this because of the way it's neatly segmented into different sections which alternate and last long enough for everyone to be properly involved.
The course alternates like this:
Desert 1: start - 10km : ride in organised rotation (see below)
Jungle 1: 10km - 20km: blob (our normal cooperative chaos) (10km so starting on the first rise) - focus on getting everyone through the rollers.
Desert 2: 20km - 30km: rotation
Jungle 2: 30km- 40km: blob
Desert 3: 40km - finish: rotate.
From the start, get together neatly settled and then at 30 seconds or 1 minute (so the clock is round numbers for future changes; road captains decide exactly which) begin your rotations. Use the rider orders posted above. Captains: your job is to call the changes on 0s/30s and then call to warn who is up next. So you need a list in order, comms, and a way of remembering if anyone withdraws from the rotation.
Everyone take 30 seconds on the front then recover until your next pull. No set watts or speed target. Go hard for you (somewhere in the range less than your 1 minute power but more than your 5 minute power!).
It's absolutely OK to refuse a turn when called if you are tired (skip to next person) or pull out of the rotation and stop pulling entirely but stay in the group to provide draft/cover. Either way, speak up when called!
2nd wheel is really important - it's hard work for someone, but also you all need to recover. And it's not ideal to move to the front from there. So @phil56, @paino, @dangeourbrain (for MoreSTW) and @munkeymadness, @yanboss and @trolo1234 (for STW) can you step in and and cover 2nd wheel as much as you can in your respective teams. I think - for now - this is probably wiser than trying longer pulls for some if you are feeling stronger.
Don't forget: the aim is still to stay together to the finish. Even with more structure, this will still be harder today through the forest than the desert.
Finally, there is a technique in this video called "sink and sprint".
see here
The aim of sinking is to not present a sticky draft to your teammates as you drop back after your turn. Think about it, but don't go overboard. Everyone riding today is "zwifty" enough to do a "sneaky surge" rather than a "sprint" but slightly earlier than the video says sprint though. It'll get you back on. And it's much lower risk.
Enjoy...
Have you got room for another rider? Understand if its a bit late...
Looks good. Will be good to try something different!
Only thing I can think of is that on the flat you have suggested the Bs cover 2nd wheel - I cant remember what power they out put but I know trolo is around 250w FTP whereas I am 280W. How much does weight matter on the flat i.e. if we have light weight B's are we going to tire them out if they are trying to cover 2nd wheel when the Cs might have a higher power output?
Cheers Adam. Good video. It’s a difficult one trying to balance the whole sink and sprint thing with the leading from the back approach. It’s much easier hitting the front from the back of the pack with the extra draft effect, rather than second wheel pushing through.... So are we assuming that whoever sits on the front pulls the anchors after 30/60sec to effectively say second wheel now has the lead?
It’s going to be hectic but I’m looking forward to it!
Yes @paino. Pull the anchors and if 2nd wheel isn't the person up next, trust that someone will be in the process of jumping past them . Once the call to change is made, your responsibility is to get back in the group and recover for next time (and/or in your case recover ready for some 2nd wheel duty). Everyone can hit the front from their preferred approach (some might want to be ready in 2nd even if others think that's extra effort, some will like to wind it up from the very back, others creep up from the middle etc).
So are we assuming that whoever sits on the front pulls the anchors after 30/60sec to effectively say second wheel now has the lead?
For my tuppence worth I'd suggest we surge off the back then try falling back a place at a time it's much much easier and far lower risk of splintering the group.
@benman yes there is one place which you are welcome to grab.
Join team MoreSTW so
- enter pen A here: https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1356634
- tag yourself as a team member in zwiftpower by appending (MoreSTW) to your Rider Name. Instructions above.
- check through tonight's strategy post above.
@phil56 If this works out, I'd add @benman to your rotations between @dangeourbrain and @w00dster. Your call though.
For my tuppence worth I’d suggest we surge off the back then try falling back a place at a time it’s much much easier and far lower risk of splintering the group.
I would normally agree, but I'm ready to try it the other way today, it makes it very clear that after the front you go to the back. Without this there is a kind of random churn of the front few riders. Can't wait to see us whipped into shape.
I didn't see the break point on the road announced for mince pies, but can I suggest xmas jumpers for team kit tonight ?
Click the default Zwift kit (grey with orange Z) - https://zwiftinsider.com/xmas/
Okay, think I've done everything to enter. Just need to set discord up now
unless EVERYONE has the same idea, which will get really confusing! Guess we'll know, once in the pen!but can I suggest xmas jumpers for team kit tonight ?
but can I suggest xmas jumpers for team kit tonight ?
Maybe we should all have reindeer names for the week. If only for the smirk value as Phil urges us onto the front "now dasher, now prancer, on doner now blitzen"
Fresh discord invite (@benman, @j-r) https://discord.gg/F92vG5Uj
Maybe we should all have reindeer names for the week. If only for the smirk value as Phil urges us on “now dasher, now prancer, on doner now blitzen”
There are 8 reindeers as well so that works!
All good to go now 🙂
Ok just trying to get my head around the strategy for tonight. I’m not the brightest and I need to be really clear in my head what the steps are....sorry!!
Are we going to attempt to be in single file, every 30 seconds or so we drop back to the rear of the line, recover until it’s our turn to pull again? Are all 8 riders going to put in a pull for the same amount of time? Even if the watts is reduced for the lighter riders, do we have a rough target of FTP we should aim for (120% ftp?).
Are we going to have a line order, so we know who we follow and who follows us? Sorry for the questions, just how my brain works I’m afraid!
@w00dster. their might be changes but I intended:
- single file ish. defined front and usually clear second rider. maybe even a third usually. But further back blobbing is fine and often more likely.
- Do your 30 seconds on the front, recover while everyone else does their 30 seconds, then your 30 seconds comes round again
- precise targets seems too much to me (for a variety of reasons). that's why I suggested a broad benchmark of just pulling hard, somewhere between your 1 minute and 5 minute power! keep an eye no gap opens behind you when you are on the front.
-I suggested the order be the order riders were in in my original post (above). road captains can confirm in the pen, and next up every 30seconds during the ride. There will be too much churn for it to be actually ridden in that order most of the time though. the order is really for front duties.
Thanks for the info. The reason I mentioned the order being confirmed is that I’ll probably write it down. If I don’t I’ll get a tad confused, especially when I’m blowing out of my backside!
I'm going to have to drop out this evening 🙁 .
I have to get up at 0300 tomorrow morning.
I like the idea that has been proposed above for the organised structure of the ttt. Hopefully i will be able to contribute in future races.
I’m up for the Reindeer names, although it’s going to confuse the hell out of Phil!
On the basis of 8 single file riders, any pushing up from the back is going to take longer than if we were blobbed, so, logically second wheel becomes first and then recover at back OR unless El Capitaino tells us where to sit. That way there’s a defined order, which is going to go to shit on the climb. Which reminds me @Benman don’t go balls out on the climb (as I know you can)! It’s a good idea for the stronger climbers to be the sweeper to make sure nobody falls off the back, or at least help if someone does.
Does it group the teams in green or anything on the list, or do we just have to look out for one another? Do we all wear the same kit to help with this?
@paino - don't worry I'll be using the climbs to recover from the flats :p It's the flat where I'm most likely to get dropped.
@benman you'll be the only team setting off at your defined start time.
So join the event as usual by 19:40. But when it says GO! you must NOT GO! You need to stay at zero watts for 4 minutes 30 at which point Phil will countdown. THEN you can go. Only STW go at that moment. Other teams have their own start delay (30 sec intervals).
The first 30-60 seconds will be spent assembling into a group on the road. Anyone leaving at that moment is 99% sure to be your teammate. But you can see their names (which are not necessarily team tagged but usually they make some sense) in the panel as usual on the right.
We usually dress as bumblebees but I think tonight it's christmas sweaters (choose) the grey zwift jersey. You'll be forced onto the buffalo bike but they've changed its characteristics so it rides well on this occasion.
On the climb, all organisation goes out the window. Just ride at the w/kg which you can all sustain together. Let the lower w/kg riders determine the pace. The rollers are hard to ride as a unit. Really hard. That means kms 10-20 and 30-40 really. Regroup into organised riding at km20 and km40 (or the nearest round number timing to that point).
The moments to transition are just after saddle springs, where the road bends right and begins to drag upwards and again after winding round the water following the rolling descent. The kms are very convenient round numbers for those points, which works well.
All clear. Good job you told me about the 0 watts bit!
You lot are at least less likely to run under my spinning pedals mid race.
I thought I had answered your earlier comment @robbo1234biking - it might indeed be a bit harsh to expect too much 2nd wheel on the flat from @trolo1234. Could team STW agree an approach to second wheel in the pen (even if it's "let's see how plan A goes an then improvise if necessary...")?
Hi there. I think I understand the aim. Can I ask for someone else to volunteer as road captain for STW. I’ve only done 2 TTs so far and feel rather unqualified. Further more my discord ability is v low. I can hear but it’s very difficult for me to speak due to how I need to have my phone placed near bike once we are riding and it’s too noisy to leave my microphone on. Any volunteers?
I can do it but can’t guarantee I won’t be blowing out of my arse and forget who is next!
Thanks Robbo. Appreciated greatly. I must also ensure I don’t prematurely exit the pen like my schoolboy error last week.
I'm coming off the back of two big races and a hilly night MTB ride, which is a lot for me, so if I start to do a Captain Oates off the back, don't come looking for me, its for the best.
Otherwise, I'm gonna be in the sleigh at the back with Santa if I get any say in it.
What time do we need to join?
@J-R join now, you can warm up till clock says 00:30. Get on MoreSTW voice though
Sorry I didn't make the pens folks.
Well that was a bit of a nightmare technically tonight. Lost @trolo1234 before we even started as he couldn’t join the pen. @zilog6128 had a crash waiting in the pen. So 5 of us set of. I think the first 10k went really well taking it in turns to take pulls. When we hit the forest I think we went to hot and burned out @drew. We managed to regroup but I think we had done the damage. When we got back on the flats drew rested a couple of turns and then out in a couple of big pulls before pulling the plug. Thanks for doing that :-). We then lost @munkeymadness due to a drop out I think just before the forest. @haloric, @yanboss and I then pushed through the forest as best we could and then tried to regoranise before the line but I think we just did what we could to get over the line.
We passed 3 teams I think without getting stuck and staying in formation so we didn’t all have to push. That bit seemed to work really well so I assume we had a really good speed differential.
Despite all the issues I enjoyed that. The first 10k taking it in turns went really well. The second time round when we were more fatigued there were a few more sticky drafts but overall I think it worked well and def something to pursue once we get better at it. I think 45 second pulls might be better perhaps but that may be because we only had 5 dropping down to 3! Well done all - I have really enjoyed the TTT and looking forward to getting back to it in the New Year!
you missed something remarkable Brian - I think Phil's microphone went down and nobody told us off ! 🤣
I think Phil’s microphone went down and nobody told us off ! 🤣
Thought it was just that we were doing so well!
Well I had no idea who I was supposed to be following, so just went to front when it suited, sorry if I cocked it up! That was difficult, so kudos to @benman and @J-R for their performance-we held it together nicely and some lovely clean passes.
The problem with having 6/7 other guys wearing the same is I lose who I’m supposed to be following. Maybe everyone wearing a different kit may help!
Sorry I missed that. I was looking forward to it this evening, really felt like I needed the run out. Zwift crashed out 3 times before I got into the pens, the one time it stayed up long enough to get there it didn't give me the invite. Even whilst it was up I couldn't seem to get it to play nicely with my turbo.
Not a successful evening 🙁
I think Phil’s microphone went down and nobody told us off !
I've got images of a teacherless classroom in my head. I'm surprised some of you didn't go the wrong way.
Well done to the STW finishers, it must have been hard ending up as a threesome. Great debut as road captain Rob, you did a great job there in difficult circumstances. Sorry to pull the plug when I did but I just couldn’t see me surviving the forest without slowing to a crawl. I’m not sure why I found it so hard but I think I’m not quite at the level where I can put a regular pull on the front in at this pace and have enough time to recover at the back.
I got a message at the end saying my FTP had gone up from "poor" to "mediocre"
I've never seen my FTP anywhere on zwift other than the overoptimistic one I typed in myself when I was fit a few years ago
Does it matter?
How do I see/use it? (sure as hell can't remember what it said, while I was still trying not to fall off the bike)