Zwift Team Time Trial, Thursday

It's team selection time! We have 14 riders signed up. This is really quite exciting. We need to get into two teams. Max 8 riders per team. Mixed ability is better (more than 3 from your highest cat pulls you up the coffee groups, but that is not a significant issue really). And remember: holding Phil's wheel is considerably less difficult when he wants you to (Thursdays) than when he doesn't (Tuesdays!).

Here's the plan: I'll list the entries. Everyone can then talk to the group. I sense that it's going to coalesce into two teams quite naturally. If I'm wrong, we'll still get there eventually. I'll formalise it in a subsequent post with the necessary start delays / zwiftpower tags / discord channels etc. once the teams are reasonably settled.

Further riders are still welcome. There are two more places. Claim one by signing up to category A here: https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1106597

The "squad" looks like this:

@paino B
@dangeourbrain B
@w00dster B
@phil56 B
@scaredypants C almost B
@drew ?C
@zilog6128 C
@ljarch C
@retrorick C
@yanboss C
@robbo1234biking C
@oopnorth C
@weeksy C
@ivandobski D almost C

Please form yourselves into two orderly lines. GO!

I use a Bluetooth headset with an integrated mic but you just cant hear me.

Probably anything specifically designed as a mic (e.g. gaming headset) rather than something which just has a cheap mic tacked on would be fine. I know the Jabra headsets are supposed to be excellent but they are £££

@zilog6128 your setup works. I can hear you (not now, obviously, you know what I mean).

@savoyad thanks that's good to know!!

as much as I would like at least one ride at my own pace rather than desperately hanging onto someone's wheel, I will stick with the original team, it will either kill me or make me faster 😂

Yes it prob is me who you cant hear.

I have a Jabra headset which is my work one which I could try and use but I am not sure if it would fall off or not! It doesn't have ear cups as such (not sure of the technical term) so is fine for work call but if I get up out of the saddle feel like it would fall off. Might try it this week and then look for a gaming headset after that.

sounds like there’s a few on here worried about getting caught out 😉

Not really I think I might actually be lighter than my Zwift weight now as have dropped a bit from the summer. I should get round to updating that actually but not sure 1kg makes a massive difference.

I just don't see how it is viable. My wife did some diet thing where you had to submit your weight with a photo on the scales full body and then one on the scales of feet with a code word provided. But it was so rife with cheating from what I could tell with people posting massive losses each week.

I just think if people want to weight dope then they will. I guess you could make it a video recording perhaps?

I'd like to be in the B team. I'm probably a low C teetering on D on a bad day?

I used a headset mic plugged into my pc which hangs off the handlebars. I need to adjust the setting on the mic so it sounds ok for everyone else listening. Speakers for listening.

It doesn’t have ear cups as such (not sure of the technical term) so is fine for work call but if I get up out of the saddle feel like it would fall off.

I just think if people want to weight dope then they will.

I'll go for the new team please!

I use my phone for connecting to discord, with my wired iPhone headphones.
Happy to be in any team. I’m reasonably good at sitting at 3.7 to 3.9 w/kg for a decent amount of time. I can draft faster riders to help keep the group at a decent speed.

I'm happy to be sheep or shepherd, it's just different sorts of hard, so either team works but suspect they split almost bang in the middle of your list Adam!

I've got a cheap BT (haylou) headset which seems to work fine but the issue is discord doesn't play nicely with zwift companion on my phone and it also loses connection every time the screen goes off (but that'll be an android power conservation setting). Difficulty there in is its fine on the computer but no push to talk from the turbo as I can't reach the keyboard so it's on speech recognition on there or push to talk on the phone in pen then effectively off once moving any how.

I guess it depends if we want one Mocha (Cs and Ds) and one Latte team (Bs, Cs and Ds).

if we split bang in the middle of your list we need a road captain for the second team...

New team for me too please.

Our objective has always been to get the complete team together across the line at what ever pace that group of riders is comfortable holding. We want to work hard, but no one should ever get distressed or 'shelled' out the back if we manage it properly. It would be great if we could get both teams to the finish with all riders - but this is going to take a lot more than just pedalling!

For this to work across two teams I think there's a few things to consider;
Firstly, riding in a relatively tight group and maximising the draft takes a bit of practice - so I think it makes sense to spread the TTT experience a little, so that if one rider is yoyoing a bit at least there is a main blob they can try and stick to.

Also each team will need someone who's done this before who can watch the gaps to make sure they don't grow - this requires concentration or it will get messy very quickly!

Next thing is don't underestimate how much harder it is on the front. For that reason I'd suggest splitting the B's between the teams - not so that any team goes faster, but so that C riders have a strong wheel to follow. The easiest place for a C cat rider to be is behind a B

Also if the B's are split across the teams there will be someone who can drop back and help when required - a strong rider sitting last but one or two wheel seems to help a lot.

Just my thoughts - happy to go with whatever works for everyone

I guess it depends if we want one Mocha (Cs and Ds) and one Latte team (Bs, Cs and Ds).

Best we'd manage is two latte with 2xb and 3xb.

Max number of Cs for Mocha is 3 so even a split on a/b/higher c and lower c/d will give Frappe and latte.

I'd go with the exact opposite - have a faster and slower team rather than two teams where the faster riders get a bit carried away and attack the slower riders on the climbs. Likewise, having a strong rider to pace someone back on is great, but it's probably a strong rider who caused the split in the first place!

Whilst having experience of the TTTs is useful the way we've raced them in the past hasn't relied on technique as much as sheer pace and having groups with a similar output will allow for practising pacing, lineouts etc etc. This is true for both the faster and slower teams - if the abilities are more level then the responsibilities can be shared more evenly.

Going down the route of two mixed teams pretty much ignores the reasons the second team idea has gained as much traction as it has.

I’d go with the exact opposite – have a faster and slower team rather than two teams where the faster riders get a bit carried away and attack the slower riders on the climbs. Likewise, having a strong rider to pace someone back on is great, but it’s probably a strong rider who caused the split in the first place!

Whilst having experience of the TTTs is useful the way we’ve raced them in the past hasn’t relied on technique as much as sheer pace and having groups with a similar output will allow for practising pacing, lineouts etc etc. This is true for both the faster and slower teams – if the abilities are more level then the responsibilities can be shared more evenly.

Going down the route of two mixed teams pretty much ignores the reasons the second team idea has gained as much traction as it has.

I'd agree with that. There's no shame in having an A squad and a B squad, there's nothing to be embarassed about just because you're not able to go as fast as some... in simple terms, i don't want to die 1000 deaths in the ride just hanging on. I want to be an equal. Currently i'm not. I don't mean that to come out as harsh, eliteist, whatever... i just want to enjoy it and feel part of the team. Hanging onto last place in the group want it to end after 10 mins is not being part of the team i'm afraid.

Ok I would suggest a split as below:

Team 1:
Phil56
Scaredypants
W00dster
Zilog
Oopnorth
Robbo
Yanboss

Team 2:
Dangerourbrain
Paino
Ivan
Weeksy
Retrorick
Drew
ljarch

Or swap paino and dangerourbrain for me and oopnorth if we want to go for a stronger team.

Could we not just do top 7 bottom 7 of that list above?

If we go for a faster and slower I think I would rather be the slow man in the faster group. Being dragged round legs screaming trying not to let everyone down is what makes the TTT appealing for me.

Odd I know!

Is it worth taking into account that the best "outcome" for the stronger team will be if the stronger team limits itself to 3xB, and so rides latte. I think we can do this whilst totally respecting weeksy and ivan's reasonable wish to make sure that the group they ride with is not a nightmare for them to hang in with. Like phil says, Bs can be an asset to the Cs and Ds.

But I think the overall aim needs to be it works out so that everyone involved this evening wants to be involved again next week - whilst maintaining a genuine possibility of fluidity between the two teams.

This first time we go through this will be the hardest to get right I think.

For my tuppence worth...

I think mixed teams will work best but, if I'm right, that will become apparent after a week or 3 of more balanced grouping.

A split along the lines of stronger/weaker has I'm pretty sure attracted a few extra hats to the ring this week, so, despite my thinking it's not the best solution I think its probably the right one for this week at least and see how it bears out. Once we're settled in I think the groupings are likely to change naturally to more mixed ability instead but we're likely to end up with two happy mixed teams if that's an organic thing as opposed to back to one next week if it's forced.

YMMV of course.

OK so I think this works best to suit everyones opinion and see how it goes for this week:

Team 1:
Phil56
Scaredypants
W00dster
Zilog
Dangerourbrain
Paino
Yanboss

Team 2:
Ivan
Weeksy
Retrorick
Drew
ljarch
Oopnorth
Robbo

How about (probably with some tinkering)...

@phil56 B
@paino B
@scaredypants C almost B
@yanboss C
@zilog6128 C
@robbo1234biking C

And

@dangeourbrain B
@w00dster B
@drew ?C
@weeksy C
@retrorick C
@oopnorth C
@ljarch C
@ivandobski D almost C

Logic: phil and paino to drive one team, brian and w00dster to drive the other (more sympathetically..). yanboss gets to follow as requested, robbo and zilog
can do their usual thing. there's plenty of experience in both teams independent of category. i don't think i've contradicted anyone's stated preferences. happy to change if so though. there's scope to rebalance the numbers, esp if someone (of any category) wants to move across, that would speed up the faster team, but might make it slightly harder to ride with the (thereby) slower team. or it might be that one of brian and woodster is enough and there's still space for the other to move "up" whilst keeping that team in latte.

On the upside of that robbo, all those ZA training thingy bobsy whatsits folks have been doing will come into their own for someone - there's a lot of nasty interval work keeping the back of a group in touch 😉

there’s still space for the other to move “up” whilst keeping that team in latte.

Didn't scaredy get flagged B last week?

Didn’t scaredy get flagged B last week?

It's complicated. Last week, the WTRL system intervened to pick him up as a B based only on that one ride, but that was because at that time ZP hadn't allocated him a category. But now ZP has categorised him as a C (based on more than one ride) so tonight that will prevail. It won't last though.

Ah, fair do.

My only suggestion with your groupings then Adam is that either woodster or I move across to bumbleBs this week at least.

One of us riding tail gunner in the bumbleCs should be enough instead of pulling on the group. That way the group can hold its own pace but there's someone able to fill the gaps if needed when they form. My suspicion as I say is it'll be all change for balanced groups over the next few weeks any how.

I'm probably more suited to the slower team so I can contribute and not risk falling off the back, however saying that I am also happy to try the faster team if required, I can always change if it doesn't work out.

Just put me wherever 🙂

Just seen the ? before drew. My w/kg is a smidge under 3.1 which I think makes me a C but with an ftp of 232 I’m a bit underpowered on the flats (doesn’t bode well for this evening). I’m surprised Ivan is a B/C as he definitely seems stronger than me in the race series.

Lets see how tonight's race goes and I'll know if I can hang onto fast groups or not 😉

I’m a bit underpowered on the flats (doesn’t bode well for this evening)

It's sand and sequoias isn't it? If so it's a good course for a group with mixed strengths, it's a half and half really between a big flat stretch round the desert, undulating and a nice little climb. Should give the heavier guys a good opportunity to drag the group then the lighter folks a decent run too.

I’m surprised Ivan is a B/C as he definitely seems stronger than me in the race series.

Yeah, zwift categories are weird, I ended up as an A at least a couple of races ahead of Phil.

I have a love / hate relationship with that hill in the sequoias, hate it the normal way round as it feels like it goes on and on, but I love the reverse direction, short and punchy.

Not one of my best routes, so I'm probably best in the slower team based on that alone haha!

Wait, what, did I miss a memo ? have I fallen off a list ? I thought I was a regular now.

I thought I was already entered for this week, and I'm up for the WTRL league when it starts.

Can't keep up with this forum on a hourly basis !.

Can’t keep up with this forum on a hourly basis !.

In an evening or of a weekend I can understand, but during office hours? What else are you doing?

@haloric. sorry. just enter the event here (cat A) and join the conversation... https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1106597

Hmm, maybe I wasn't subscribed, how embarassing, anyway I am now.

I'm a middle of the road C I think.

Don’t have an opinion on how to split teams-It’s fun whichever way we do it. We do need to make sure that there is always a ‘team leader’ or at least someone with good comms on the Bumble B’s to do what Phil does to the A’s. My headset obviously works by transmitting sound whenever there is some...which is all the time on the turbo so I have to mute myself on discord.

re: comms

I have 'push-to-talk' set on Discord, which means no transmitted sound unless you are holding the button, and I use a separate phone for it. I think it works pretty well with practice.

I use jawbones headset to be berated by Phil, as it means I can listen to music on normal inner ear headphones and have my head vibrated when I'm lagging. It feels like Phil is actually inside your head.

It feels like Phil is actually inside your head.

Is it just me or do we all think he looks like this?

When the jawbones aren't working right, its more this...

Harsh!!!

The startlist has pulled through onto the WTRL site now, so it's easier for me to chop and change riders around on screen. Watch this space...

@drew do you have a zwiftpower profile? You are entered in the event in the app but I can't see you on the WTRL startlist.. If not, can you get one? Instructions here: https://support.zwift.com/en_us/connecting-to-zwiftpower-SyldRc_4H

Its a long route this week but should be very quick through the sand bit and the climb is only 5 minutes long (less for the faster guys).

Will need to be wary through titans grove as that is where the team will split.

Will need to be wary through titans grove as that is where the team will split.

Hi, thanks for the prompt Savoyad I’m now on the start list.

After last night I definitely should be in group B, that way I can help to push when needed, on short sharp hills etc. I don't want to just be hanging on for dear life 🙂

The longer KOM section of Titans will be where I struggle due to weight but I'm ok with the smaller punchy stuff.

For me, where we go wrong is not slowing enough when there is a gap, and hoping Phil can pull the sufferer along.

When there is a gap at the back the whole team needs to go into 80% cruise mode, whilst the rider rejoins, or a stronger ride helps out by going back, but the main team must reduce effort considerably, otherwise the dropped rider has to put in monumental effort and is drained when they do get back.

Usually the gap has grown too big before the team slows.

I would like to see more comms from those at the back calling the pace (myself included), so that we get earlier notice of the issue. Just one word commands like 'cruise/go' would be enough to head off the gaps and indicate when its safe to ramp up again.

I've tried to call that in the past, but not felt that the group has slowed quickly enough to slow the gap. Just my 2c, last ride we were pretty much on it, still loving it.

My new headset arrives today so hopefully I will have better comms tomorrow evening! Taking a rest day today as well so a rare 48 hours of the bike for me between last nights race and tomorrow nights so I hope to go into it fresher!

What headsets are everyone using? I have in-ear plugs but I'm not sure if they are up to the job for comms or not. We will find out tomorrow...

Can anyone suggest anything suitable for zwifting, I was thinking of getting some proper on-ear headphones, but at a cheapish price if possible.

Will be a hard course for me with it being so flat, 69kgs and 263 ftp means I’ll be pretty much at max ftp for the majority of the flat part. Is the second discord channel set up? Hope that’s the right terminology, have no idea what it means apart from the B team need to be able to communicate!

haloric
Free Member
For me, where we go wrong is not slowing enough when there is a gap, and hoping Phil can pull the sufferer along.

When there is a gap at the back the whole team needs to go into 80% cruise mode, whilst the rider rejoins, or a stronger ride helps out by going back, but the main team must reduce effort considerably, otherwise the dropped rider has to put in monumental effort and is drained when they do get back.

Agree 100%, on the occasions when I've pulled the plug it wasn't necessarily because I wouldn't have been able to get back on but because I knew that the effort of getting back on combined with no noticeable drop in pace meant that being dropped again (and again!) was almost inevitable.

I have ordered one of these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B074M5PDQY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Will let you know tomorrow if it is any good. Will try in ear headphones with it and use that for comms and in ear for music.

People normally cant hear me with my in ear ones hence me giving the other ones a try. Wireless is an issue as well so hopefully the cord is nice and long!

Oh and I quite like the feeling of waiting for the teams to come out. Reminds me of my rugby playing days waiting for the text to come through to know which team you would be playing in ie. would you be playing against South Africans and Kiwis in London or a bunch of retired teachers in Leicester!

I'm not sure ear-muffs are a great idea for indoor turbo racing!

I’m not sure ear-muffs are a great idea for indoor turbo racing!

I wear a head band as well. I pretty much look like a bad 80s workout instructor in a mankini. I already use some wireless over ear ones for workouts and don't have an issue with my ears getting hot but all of my extremities seem to suffer with being cold!

Ha I was going to ask if anyone uses a head band or not, I seem to suffer from sweat in the eyes and all over the phone!

I don't think I could wear such big cups over my ears whilst exercising, I'll melt.

I wear a head band as well. I pretty much look like a bad 80s workout instructor in a mankini.

If you ever follow DrP down the twitch stream route, promise me you'll grow a Tom Selleck tache first*

*assumes you currently look like that chap in the deer stalker on emmerdale.

I've been going round in circles like it's a velodrome. No lineups were perfect. I've alighted on this distribution of riders, my best attempt at satisfying everyone within the constraints of the event:

TEAM ONE
@phil56
@paino
@w00dster
@scaredypants
@yanboss
@zilog6128
@robbo1234biking

TEAM TWO
@dangeourbrain
@drew
@weeksy
@retrorick
@oopnorth
@ljarch
@ivandobski
@haloric

One is obviously a faster team than two (by design). But I'm still a bit uncomfortable thinking of them as A and B teams. A lot of interchangeability is possible and we should probably shuffle a bit to experiment from week to week. Both have plenty of experience in the format which is nice.

It's hard to get a good power "gradient" (on paper) across the riders for both teams because we have a bit of a gap in the middle of the B range.

So these lineups have a more dramatic and satisfying power gradient in team one than team two. Team two is really a very tight unit based on power profiles alone, plus Brian. I've tried to take everyone's contributions to the conversation into account and also to avoid dropping us in the trap of unsatisfying results in both frappe and latte.

This is a really amazing group of riders to have these dilemmas with.

I'll allocate the actual team names etc once start delays are announced - this will mean I can manipulate the gap between the teams. It might be fun one day to be passing each other, but I think we best avoid that for now...That'll be probably tomorrow AM but I'll do it tonight if (which isn't often the case...) I get the info email in time.

Excellent work savoyad

good stuff! looking forward to it 😃

Works for me! Thanks savoyad

It might be fun one day to be passing each other, but I think we best avoid that for now

To be fair that would be pretty hilarious, passes are messy enough without the added joy of the other team being in the same kit, with the same tag and all people you were riding with yesterday.

on headphones - I have NO IDEA how you can stand that ! (or how they'd survive even a couple of races on my head)

I have one of those conference camera/mic things on the top of my screen for the mic and a pair of speakers for the sounds. Seemed to work OK on the ride I did with you (at least, people said they could hear me OK). Only major worry would be if I started accidentally streaming video - I'm no "DrP, catwalk king"

I do have a huge fan pointed at my head so that might be why I don’t find them too bad!

Teams look good Savoyad. Cheers for sorting.

Just a note...this will be my first ever TT, team or otherwise...so apologies in advance if I really mess it up!!

Sorry team 2 😉

... should add, I don't care at all which team I join so please move me as anyone prefers, savoyad

(road bikes again this week, as the app description seems to suggest, or is the "sand" aspect off-road ?)

Don’t worry mate. It is basically like riding in the group last night. We don’t do turns on the front or anything that organised - just give it your best and enjoy it. Ivan looked strong last night as well in our group.

You would do good being the pace setter up the climb. Set a decent but confortable pace at about 250w for the team and let Brian drop to the back in case anyone drops off.

You would do good being the pace setter up the climb. Set a decent but confortable pace at about 250w for the team and let Brian drop to the back in case anyone drops off.

Pretty much this, unless you've any objections as a group, my plan is to sit on the back and fill gaps as they appear or help pull people back on if needed. [significantly it should let you lot work as a group as it suits you and see how it goes without too much risk of the group coming badly apart if you misjudge]

If it goes as I expect I'll fall off a bit on the climb and the rollers so I can pull anyone who has fallen off back to you on the down hill and the flat.
The desert is about as pan flat as zwift gets so I imagine looking at the group you'll all stick pretty well there until you don't. When they do form any gaps will go out quickly so will be a fair bit of under over for me to try keep any one at the back from falling off too much without it getting very lurchy.

Happy to do some pulling come lap 2 if you're all holding together well but I think it's likely to cause trouble if I'm spending much time on the front.

If it all goes swimmingly I'll get a nice pootle...

I'll be ok on the first time up the Titan's, second I might be blowing...let's see.

I'm happy to take the front when I feel good enough to do so, then hide in the draft during the flatter sections to get some breath back. Pretty much like last night. I'm not a great pacer though so let me know if I pull too hard or not!!

If you're doing a turn on the front and feeling good don't drop the hammer and catch people out, just do a longer turn at a slightly higher pace.

road bikes again this week,

Always. Gravel bikes lose more in aero than they gain in speed so in a draft its pointless even in dirt. (and its all* tarmac tomorrow)

Only thing I would say is avoid the tron bike. No draft animation makes it really bloody hard to know if you're losing the group or towing them when folks are on them.

*almost

I'm looking forward to my 2nd TT. I think I'll watch slightly more tv and cut my warmup time in half so I'm not totally useless during the event 😂

I’m down on power quite a bit since I last rode with you guys so I’m expecting this to be grim! I’ll do my best and I’m sure I’ll know pretty early on if I’ve bitten of a bit too much too soon, only one way to get fit again though right?! Think the toughest bit for me will be passing any teams and if we catch any back to back!! Those surges hurt when I was fitter never mind now.

Only thing I would say is avoid the tron bike.

Looks like I need to spend some drops! New Canyon? I do have the venge but I think that's more suited to just flats.

Will the lightweight wheels work or should I go more aero?

I raced with the aero road and the dr Swiss wheels yesterday. Might be a good combo!

Think the toughest bit for me will be passing any teams and if we catch any back to back!! Those surges hurt when I was fitter never mind now.

You'll be fine - I'll pick you up if you're falling off, just remember to aim for my wheel not try and chase the group.
Unless the group is going serious guns on the front I should be able to pace you back on so you're pulling less than they are but making ground so long as you hold draft.

Looks like I need to spend some drops! New Canyon? I do have the venge but I think that’s more suited to just flats.

Will the lightweight wheels work or should I go more aero

New canyon is actually faster than the tron. Its the fastest all out bike in the game no or side TT.
Zipp 808s (or supers etc if you've got them) for wheels for everything except hill top finishes.

Got 808's already, so just a frame change needed. I'm off virtual bike shopping!

Did a course recce today, it’s a long one at 43k (with the lead out). It’s all about the climb though. I think it’s where teams are going to split all over the place. Stupidly I gave the climb a good bash, probably a terrible idea, but I think we’re looking at 5-6mins to the top. All in just over an hour in the saddle I’d say.

5-6, optimistic!

5:34 is my best.

Best lap 30:07