[Closed] Zwift Alternative - Veloton

To be a Zwift beater is quite a low bar these days, all that Zwift seems to have is large numbers and a fairly stable platform. Those are not easy things to get I admit.

Not only difficult to get but arguably the two most important things. An MMO lives or dies by user volume

someone will surely come and eat their lunch soon

Well... it wont be these lot with a name like Veloton! I mean really, come on, its a bit lame.

also realism isn't a good thing, especially graphical, being more cartoony let's you get away with an awful lot of things that anything approaching a sim wouldn't weather. Users want realism but they don't want "80% they'll be happy with 50% but much over that and it needs to be high 90s or it just highlights what doesn't work /isn't right. Eg the shadow effects in that screenshot are not good yet there are visible tendons in the rider's legs.

Not only difficult to get but arguably the two most important things.

Zwift have got such a strong stranglehold on the turbo apps for anyone wanting more than "match the ERG demand" from apps such as Trainer Road, despite's Zwift's flaws.

People will be reluctant to pay for new "game" apps when numbers for races especially are low.

Virtugo was a decent looking app that I used through its beta program, but after years of development it quickly shut up shop ~12 months ago, when it didn't get the sub numbers to recoup all that development debt.

RGT looked promising, but I've not regualarly used it for a while, partly because the power data it was sending to Strava and Crickles was wrong... Several courses would send significantly inflated power figures to those sites, which would then give me 95% 20min FTP estimates I could only dream of. Didn't like the switch to having to run mobile as a "remote control" to operate the app on PC/laptop, either. Now I'm back turboing again, I'll have to give it another go.

Zwift actually gives me 90% of what I want. It runs on most platforms, including apple tv which is great. The problem is that the remaining 10% makes me want to throw it in the bin.

I don't need better graphics than, I don't need more realism.

I would like to see more steering and braking options, race-craft like features, but it's not the key issue.

The trainer interface is stable, never seem to get rogue data.

The problems for me are two fold:

a) UI - so many well documented issues, no change there for a long time. So frustrating to be registered for an event, but not be able to join it. Why for gods sake. These should be straight forward to resolve.

b) Social - if you are not on a forum like this, you get no way to interact with anyone, other than inane in game chat.

From a software development point of view they seem to have lost their way. Promising re-writes and features, but providing nothing of note. Meetups are improving, so there is hope. Steering is there, but instead of providing an open interface that companies could use, they have kept it closed. It's quite clunky having used it, it's not that useful so far. The best bike in the game is hampered by not knowing if you are drafting - why ?

Some fairly trivial software changes would eat into that 10% of frustration.

b) Social – if you are not on a forum like this, you get no way to interact with anyone, other than inane in game chat.

There's a Zwiftpower forum. It's not amazing, but not terrible either.

Also why do the graphics in what I assume is a promo video for d something trying to look good, actually look like they've been lifted from an early 2000s game?

exactly. Zwift is brilliant because of the community they’ve managed to build around it. Can’t imagine anyone bettering it anytime soon tbh. Remember CVR? 🤣🤣🤣

Was CVR the more gamified one that looked really poor? I'm very keen on that direction - a more gamified zwift, if it could be done right. The zwift power-ups are so rudimentary, really - thinking about things like flinging red shells at your competitors, pity bullet for those gasping at the back. Seriously the scope is huge.

Seems like a stretch that any serious software / games house are going to build a cycling game environment from the ground up. But as a mod for an existing game perhaps - prob most people saw that GTA5 cycling mod that someone knocked up as a hobby project, looked amazing.

People will be reluctant to pay for new “game” apps when numbers for races especially are low.

To be fair, how many people do you actually need?

If you have 1000 users you get Cat E/1/2/3/4 ( and a 5/6/7/8 for the fatties) and still get 100+ people in a race.

If you have 1,000,000 users you get exactly the same numbers in each race, you just get longer names "4:47WCT Cat D Superlative Moutain stakes sponsored by Daves Cleaning supplies for the tri-state area".

I reckon there's a gap in the market for a free Zwift with advertising billboards and hoardings. Imagine riding around Zwift all winter looking at Trek advertising boards, then walking into an LBS!

b) Social – if you are not on a forum like this, you get no way to interact with anyone, other than inane in game chat.

That's a bit of a weird one for zwift. I think they're absolutely expecting most users to be using zwift as a training tool alongside their existing clubs etc. so think the social side will come from there.

I think deep down the team at zwift all still see folks who'd choose to play a game instead of going outside in the pouring rain and doing hill reps as strange blokes who live in their mums basement. I think they absolutely don't want it to be a game and really see it as something serious (I imagine they're super serious roadie types actually think "The Rules" matter). Personally I think building it into more of an MMOG and pushing the social side would do them wonders but I'm not sure it's what they want.

Look at the official series and the language around it, it reads like something wanting to be an actual sport not an e sport. They they see themselves as The Premier League not EA's FIFA and certainly not League of Legends OR God forbid World of Warcraft.

If you have 1000 users you get Cat E/1/2/3/4 ( and a 5/6/7/8 for the fatties) and still get 100+ people in a race.

You might get 4 users in a race.

1000 users across approx 12 time zones, 5 cats, some with other plans at 3pm on Tuesday etc.

You need a *lot* of users.

Seems like a stretch that any serious software / games house are going to build a cycling game environment from the ground up. But as a mod for an existing game perhaps – prob most people saw that GTA5 cycling mod that someone knocked up as a hobby project, looked amazing.

There was an adapter for the PS2 that let you use a turbo as a y-axis and a steering plate for the X in racing games. I think it even had a brake button? So there was presumably a market for turbo-training games even back then.

Would people buy into a bike racing game based on Forza/GranTurismo? I suppose the problem for developers is modeling a ~2mile circuit in fantastic detail is one thing. Trying to model an entire alpine mountain is exponentially harder, for a much smaller market.

You might get 4 users in a race.

1000 users across approx 12 time zones, 5 cats, some with other plans at 3pm on Tuesday etc.

You need a *lot* of users.

It was exemplary. Zwift does actually have 1million users (doesn't disclose how many of those accounts are actually active). But the point I was making was that however many are actually active accounts is hugely in excess of the number required for it to be viable. If you could poach just a fraction of that user base then you could create/fill enough races that users wouldn't know.

There's a lot of things that you could do differently, I'm sure I'm not the only one of that 1-million that tried it and went....... mehhh.

If you could poach just a fraction of that user base then you could create/fill enough races that users wouldn’t know.

There’s a lot of things that you could do differently,

NPC racers and the like would be a good place to start both those things but it's moving towards a game more and more and (looking at the video above, RGT etc) the thrust at the moment is sim more than game.

For what it's worth I think what will kill zwift is their own stated aim to lean towards hardware away from the software.
They see the success* of peleton and the benefits of an apple style limited hardware eco system and want to emulate that rather than developing a platform for myriad other people's kit with all the pitfalls that involves. It'll give them much greater control over the realism and reduction in input discrepancies, allow them to address some of the more vocal concerns about cheating etc [FWIW I think they've listened too much to the few loud voices and nothing enough to all the background ones]b and hardware is another revenue stream with a much bigger long term commitment to subscribe than having earned 50mil drops.

Personally I think that's the wrong direction and I'd be pushing down a more inclusive "less" realistic MMOG type route but it's not my company.

I didn't even know this one existed - the graphics look lame but compare and contrast the amount of effort put in to the user interface to decide what you want to do.

They also do propriatory steering buttons, or a game controller.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFUEa-C9XxWAZRHCfq-oUQQ/videos

The change is a-coming if we only believe hard enough.

For what it’s worth I think what will kill zwift is their own stated aim to lean towards hardware away from the software.
They see the success* of peleton and the benefits of an apple style limited hardware eco system and want to emulate that rather than developing a platform for myriad other people’s kit with all the pitfalls that involves. It’ll give them much greater control over the realism and reduction in input discrepancies, allow them to address some of the more vocal concerns about cheating etc [FWIW I think they’ve listened too much to the few loud voices and nothing enough to all the background ones]b and hardware is another revenue stream with a much bigger long term commitment to subscribe than having earned 50mil drops.

Wierd you should say that, but Wahoo, who seem joined at the hip to zwift (in the sense that whenever there's a competition it's always kickr's), own Sufferfest. Hedged bet's or backing the wrong horse?

Is the hardware really that lucrative? I know £800 is a lot for a spinning flywheel, some magnets on a servo, and a modicum of processing power, but I assumed it must be reasonably competitive otherwise the various companies would be undercutting each other more.

I suppose there must be a market though, otherwise Peleton wouldn't exist.

Anyone used Rouvey?

Proper HD video of the road. Still seems strange how all the cars slow down when you ride slowly but nicer views that animation when riding.

Wanting other people to ride against. I am not sure if you are aware but when playing Grand Turismo the other cars are not being driven by real people. Why not have AI riders to compete against? When you join you are allocated to a group of 50 riders who are a mix of real and AI riders. You can move up and down the league along with the AI characters. It is not hard to fake a roadie conversion in the chat room.

Want to gamify it, simple as you can switch between training (animated pain), pleasure (HD video trails), race (Real + AI) or fantasy (Riding the rings of Saturn). The physics is all the same, as are the riders you interact with. You just stick a different skin over it.

Money generated by advertising on the race track billboards and paid club subscriptions for the serious ones. Extra 'treats' earned by watching paid adverts

Anyone want to join me in launching the next best thing?

I don’t have a lot to complain about with Zwift, I think it’s come a long way. The design of the UI is a bit dated and cutesy, both the app and Companion but hey...

I don’t want steering, tbh. Turning the bars on my road bike isn’t really something I do much of on a normal ride, it would feel entirely unnatural to do that on a turbo.

A little Zwift Bluetooth mobile to Velcro on to the bars to replicate the icons in Zwift Companion to turn left, right etc might be worth £40 to me - but suspect a tiny market. I don’t always want to use Companion, phone battery is often low at the end of the day when I invariably get on it.

Won't a manufacturer of a certain overpriced exercise bike system be coming after them with this name? They might as well change it in beta to save themselves a load of hassle.

They might as well change it in beta to save themselves a load of hassle

Yeah but it's valuable exposure.

Is the hardware really that lucrative? I know £800 is a lot

The hardware doesn't need to be, £800 could be below cost but more importantly its a big tie in, spend 800 8k whatever on a fancy exercise bike that only works on peleton and you're unlikely to consider buying a turbo to do zwift a instead. It's printer ink. The money is in the subscriptions and keeping them live.

I like RGT for the very reasons most prefer zwift, its queiter, less gamey, less people zooming around on glowing bikes, less riding under the sea. I've done a few RGT races and they are fun, but do lack numbers, I usually find self stuck between groups. The real roads feature is great though, I did the final TT from le tour which was awesome. I guess I am naturally drawn to underdogs too!!

There’s a lot of things that you could do differently, I’m sure I’m not the only one of that 1-million that tried it and went……. mehhh

I recently started using Zwift and like it, however the last few weeks I’ve been trying Sufferfest and much prefer it. With free trials on all of these platforms it’s probably fairly easy to get to 1 million accounts (especially during a global pandemic with lockdowns all over the place). I wonder how many of those 1 million accounts actually translate to active users paying a monthly fee. My Zwift account is suspended at the moment while I evaluate other platforms, but technically it’s probably still counted as active.

Wierd you should say that, but Wahoo, who seem joined at the hip to zwift (in the sense that whenever there’s a competition it’s always kickr’s), own Sufferfest. Hedged bet’s or backing the wrong horse?

Personally I think Wahoo have backed the right horse with Sufferfest, at least the right one for them. While Zwift wins hands down in terms of gamification and in game community, I think SUF does better in terms of being a training tool. End of the day, you buy a turbo to get fitter and work harder. If you want to play a video game an Xbox is cheaper! I realise those lines are blurring, but for me it’s about training not playing.

Is the hardware really that lucrative?

If you look at other industries, the cost of hardware is less and less relevant as that is generally a low margin capital expenditure. What most companies want to get into these days is monthly or annual recurring revenue - in other words subscriptions, or operational expense. Financial markets look a lot more favourably on a business that can generate $15 per month on high margin software delivery, than a $1000 one off sale on low margin hardware. The software subscription might remain active for many years, so pulls in more profit over time. Also, the more your user base scale the lower your costs (software development etc). The challenging part of software and recurring revenue is that users can leave anytime, with just a months notice, so you have to make sure you are delivering and improving consistently. Selling hardware you have to deal with additional cost and complexity like warranty and support which eats into margins.

Selling hardware ties customers to the software though. If you buy a zwift bike which only works with zwift moving to a different app has a huge cost hurdle.