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That’s because you’re eating a load a processed junk – far too many carbs, nowhere near enough protein, not enough fat and very poor micronutrient density.
It's how I've always fuelled rides, although granted if I had had more pocket space I'd have taken a banana or two as well. I'll confess I've never understood the role of protein and fat DURING activity, I can't believe the double bacon and egg rolls I see other riders scoffing at coffee stops!
I don't know how Z2 changes nutrition but I'm not sure lack of micronutrients, protein OR fat is an issue over three hours after a full and relatively health lunch?
That’s because you’re eating a load a processed junk – far too many carbs, nowhere near enough protein, not enough fat and very poor micronutrient density.
I don't think eating protein and fat on the bike will help.
I would suggest not eating that shite on the bike though for a steady 75km I would look at a banana, couple of bottles with a dilute carb mix in, I think carbs in a bottle are taken in regularly and you don't get spikes and then crashes in blood sugar like you do with sugary snacks. I imagine that is why you feel so hungry after.
I was fuelling all my Z2 work with carbs last year and got fat on it! Since Oct, I've switched to just squash and managed a bit of concurrent weight loss.
I don't really feel hungry on Z2, after about an hour there is a definite switch though. I feel like I've finally engaged fat burning mode! Then I don't feel like I need to fuel at all. I'm keen to try a fasted century when the weather perks up, just to see how fat adapted I really am 🤣
I eat normally the rest of the time. Definitely going into them with onboard glycogen stores topped off.
I'm doing 120min Erg sessions on the trainer at 235w now. Right in the middle of Z2 HR 😎 Only a couple a week though, the rest are lower intensity and or longer.
I went out yesterday and did 49 miles in about 3hrs. The middle 2hrs was the same kind of Z2 HR as the ERG sessions and I arrived back feeling like I could do it again! Then tonight is Z1 with spin ups and then back to the Z2 ERG tomorrow.
In a couple of weeks time, I plan to start my muscular endurance work, so one of those 2h Z2 ERG session will become Tempo! Gonna shoot for 120 mins progressing each week at 250, 260, 270 then recovery week, then 270, 280, 290 then recovery week, then 280, 290 and finally 300.
Those bad boys will probably have a corresponding increase in carbs alongside them 😮💨
Z2 is primary fat using. You are using slow twitch fibres which use fat as an energy source. I wouldn't be carb loading while doing it. You want the fat to get used and increase the numbers of mitochondria in the cells. Carbs will just switch metabolism to glycolysis rather than beta oxidation.
Thats far two much for steady Z2. For reference on Saturday I'll do 2h:20m with:
1 x slice brown toast with two scrambled eggs with 1 milk & brown sugar coffee
1 x double espresso immediately pre ride
2 x Torq Hydro (30g carbs total) bottles
Post ride - timed to finish at lunchtime to avoid snacks - 1 x SIS Rego (normally Protien only but I've a 4h ride the following day), plus a roast chicken salad sandwich, and some crisps*.
*not the best but I like crisps, a lot.
Z2 is primary fat using. You are using slow twitch fibres which use fat as an energy source. I wouldn’t be carb loading while doing it. You want the fat to get used and increase the numbers of mitochondria in the cells. Carbs will just switch metabolism to glycolysis rather than beta oxidation.
So much bollocks in such a small amount of text!!! 😄😄
Well in fairness I guess I had always understood Z2 wasn't using up Glycogen stores, but I just haven't figured out the extreme grumpiness and tiredness after fasted or near fasted rides. I'd be doing them all the time otherwise as I seemed able to ride for a good few hours on not much more than a banana and water.
Whereas I can finish a well fuelled ride like above still feeling good on the bike etc. albeit then having a decent appetite.
I can't touch carb drinks on cold easy rides, I need to stop and pee way too much!
Z2 is primary fat using.
It still uses carbs, depending on who you are though. You will always use some and it can be quite a bit. The key is to find out how little you can get away with cumulatively. I could do 2hrs on no carbs easily, but the next day I'd be hungry and the next day my riding would suffer and I'd feel worse etc, as my glycogen stores were further depleted. I think the trick is to maintain slightly depleted glycogen all the time, but not getting fully depleted otherwise you crash.
Something something glucagon something.
I think carbs in a bottle are taken in regularly and you don’t get spikes and then crashes in blood sugar like you do with sugary snacks.
It works a little differently when you are exercising because your cells are using their glycogen. High GI carbs and the insulin are good in this case because you can replenish what you've depleted easily and the insulin is important for that. Insulin is only a problem when you are idle with full glycogen stores because then it promotes lipogenesis, as I understand it.
Yes, you want to be using some fat but you will anyway in Z2. As long as you take small amounts of carbs, enough so that you're not ravenous when you get home or the next day, you'll be alright. The harder you ride obvs the more carbs you need to take on.
Yeah, I've tried fat adaptation and all that stuff in the past. It basically robbed me of the things I find fun on a bike - riding hard and eating sweeties. I didn't notice any significant improvement in aerobic abilities or lose any weight. I don't think I got any satisfaction out of riding for hours on not much food.
I don’t know how Z2 changes nutrition but I’m not sure lack of micronutrients, protein OR fat is an issue over three hours after a full and relatively health lunch?
I laughed at this too. Maybe your ride has made you vitamin B deficient or something!
It works a little differently when you are exercising because your cells are using their glycogen. High GI carbs and the insulin are good in this case because you can replenish what you’ve depleted easily and the insulin is important for that.
It would depend on a host of factors like exercise intensity, genetics (altering the balance of different biochemical pathways for example), prior training over the long term, prior training over the short term. I was just saying what works for me on my lower intensity rides, if the poster found he was hungry at the end of a zone two ride of a few hours having eaten what sounds like quite a lot (for me) I would suggest changing it up a bit...we are all different and blanket statements about one thing or the other or one metabolic pathway or another or one type of muscle fibre or the other distil it all down to worthless bollocks.
@Molgrips when you are exercising above walking pace, you don’t need insulin as the Glute 4 transporters are activated by the muscle contractions. It’s why exercise is so good for T2D- especially right after eating. Even standing up triggers more Glute 4’s than sitting hence lowering blood sugar and requiring less of an insulin spike.
Insulin is bad as it inhabits fat burning.
It’s important to differentiate between low carb as a diet technique (bad) and low carb as an endurance adaptation technique (maybe good, maybe bad).
You don’t need to do the former to try the latter.
Low-carb / overnight-fasted rides do train your body to use more fat. But they will dig you into a hole if you don’t cap the intensity.
I used to aim for around 55%-60% of ftp and built them up to 6hrs.
The other option is to do them on an overnight fast for a couple of hours at a slightly higher intensity (z2), then before you bonk, start smashing carbs. Because your glute 4’s are open, your body will absorb them in no time and you can finish your ride however you like.
It gives you amazing confidence to know you can ride for hours with no food if you really need to.
I don’t pretend to understand many words but I love Peter Attia and his guests pumping their deep knowledge into my ears when I ride 🤣
This episode about insulin resistance is fascinating.
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-peter-attia-drive/id1400828889?i=1000586933595
Tldr- even half the ‘healthy’ and skinny population is insulin resistant but exercise is still the best hack there is.
I laughed at this too. Maybe your ride has made you vitamin B deficient or something
Can I share GIFs?
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/fd241197-bb28-454f-98cc-be5a49dfdfe0#dEtTdSL2.copy
Edit: apparently so 😎
we are all different
That's been my point all along. Our responses to stimulus and the resulting hormones varies a lot for the reasons you state. You need to work out what works for you.
low carb as a diet technique (bad)
That's controversial, why do you say that?
Because even if you condition yourself for years. you are always going to be limited on the top end on a low carb diet. Your ability to store and replenish glycogen is impaired.
This may not matter for ultra endurance but for almost everything else- it’s the carb fuelled efforts that win you the race.
it’s the carb fuelled efforts that win you the race
Or, importantly for me, provide the most fun bits of a bike ride.
For sure 😀
Low carb is like building the worlds strongest foundations for a mansion and then living on top of them in a tent 🤣
So much bollocks in such a small amount of text!!!
can you point me to the scientific literature that shows where I have gone wrong?
glucagon
Hormone involved in regulating blood glucose level. Think of it as the opposite of insulin.
Low-carb / overnight-fasted rides do train your body to use more fat. But they will dig you into a hole if you don’t cap the intensity.
I used to aim for around 55%-60% of ftp and built them up to 6hrs.The other option is to do them on an overnight fast for a couple of hours at a slightly higher intensity (z2), then before you bonk, start smashing carbs. Because your glute 4’s are open, your body will absorb them in no time and you can finish your ride however you like.
+1 This is exactly how I train(ed) for long distance MTB and also weight loss. 3hrs going up to 4hrs Z2 fasted with a 750ml water first and a 500ml energy drink for the final hour, plus emergency gel on standby.
I'm all for getting fitter, but this all sounds like some kind of purgatory 🤣
So much bollocks in such a small amount of text!!!
can you point me to the scientific literature that shows where I have gone wrong?
Yes my thought was it might be more useful (and polite) to explain why it was so much bollocks. Though my twopennorth would be that it's not eating carbs that "switch your metabolism" it's the intensity of the exercise.
Though my twopennorth would be that it’s not eating carbs that “switch your metabolism” it’s the intensity of the exercise.
It is that. At low intensity exercise the slow twitch fibres predominantly use fat as an energy source while the fast twitch fibres are not being engaged. As you increase the intensity of the exercise the muscles start to use glucose over fat. You take in carbs as part of the normal diet while Gluconeogenesis occurs to help maintain blood glucose levels if there isn't enough glucose in the diet.
I thought the TR version was exhausting but this thread must be the left half of the bell curve.
Eat sugar and ride your bike a lot, sometimes hard.
Crosshair, stop trying to canvas for the joys of eating disorders.
What the heck are you on about @continuity ?
Even Coach Chad says fasted rides have their place as a tool.
https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/program-body-burn-fat-instead-store-fasted-training/
I’ve even said don’t do (faddy) low carb diets.
I think you may have a reading comprehension issue.
I've tried one Z2 "run", really tricky. Fast walk wasn't enough, jog at such a slow speed was difficult. Felt more knackered than Z3.
Back on topic- there’s so much amazing content out there about the benefits of this style of training.
This video below (non cycling) summed it up for me when he says, you don’t realise how unfit you truly are until you start this sort of polarised 80/20 z2 heavy training! Then after a while, you get back from 3hrs and realise you could do another 3 hrs no problem.
Because even if you condition yourself for years. you are always going to be limited on the top end on a low carb diet.
Oh, yeah, that's definitely true. A low carb diet is only ever a weight loss tool, not a long term thing, in my view.
Though my twopennorth would be that it’s not eating carbs that “switch your metabolism” it’s the intensity of the exercise.
It is that.
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding but isn't that contrary to your post?
"Carbs will just switch metabolism to glycolysis rather than beta oxidation" - i.e. it's eating carbs that cause the switch not the intensity of exercise.
I’m in bed the now doing nothing but rest and typing this. My body is primary using fat as an energy source (apart from some parts like the brain that prodominantly uses glucose). If I have a can of sugary coke my body will switch to using glucose in order to keep my bloody glucose level constant.
Now in exercise if you are doing low intensity low VO2 stuff your body will still prefer to use fat as an energy source. If you do zone 2 and take in carbs the body will use the carbs to maintain a constant bloody glucose level rather than metabolise fat.
If you then go to high intensity/high VO2 stuff the body switches over to glucose rather than fat.
Slow twitch fibres for endurance like zone 2 primarily use fat as an energy source. Fast twitch fibres used in sprinting use glucose as an energy source.
That probably doesn’t make it any clearer
If I have a can of sugary coke my body will switch to using glucose in order to keep my bloody glucose level constant.
AIUI your cells always use glucose, that can come from your blood stream or from breaking down glycogen or fat. Glucose is a bit toxic over certain levels so your pancreas secretes insulin pretty quickly. But if you drink a lot of sugar the insulin promotes your cells to convert glucose to glycogen and store it. But if they are full, then it gets converted to fat. The glucose doesn't hang around in your blood until you use it, if you're not diabetic. If you are, then it can, and you get a load of problems because it wrecks your blood vessels. However the insulin also inhibits lipolysis so your cells will prefer stored glycogen, so that is also an effect, but I don't think it's the mechanism for keeping blood glucose constant.
If you do zone 2 and take in carbs the body will use the carbs to maintain a constant bloody glucose level rather than metabolise fat.
It's not binary. In the 'fat burning zone' you might be using 60/40 fat/glycogen and in the 'carb zone' it might be 30/70, but those numbers depend on the person and their physiology. Eating carbs does inhibit lipolysis or fat burning, but it doesn't switch it off.
As far as I know, taking on carbs in the first 45 mins of a ride can inhibit the use of fat somewhat, but you aren't burning 100% fat so after that your glycogen will still be depleted a bit and you will benefit from taking on carbs. At least, some people will. There are people who can ride all day purely on fat stores - but I'm sure they are depleting glycogen a bit, they'll just replenish when they get home.
This is worth a read:
"Carbohydrate and fat utilization during rest and physical activity"
https://clinicalnutritionespen.com/article/S1751-4991(11)00006-0/fulltext
Z2 is primary fat using. You are using slow twitch fibres which use fat as an energy source. I wouldn’t be carb loading while doing it. You want the fat to get used and increase the numbers of mitochondria in the cells. Carbs will just switch metabolism to glycolysis rather than beta oxidation.
Zone 2 will use muscle fibres of both types. In any case the difference between the two is not a hard border it's a continuum.
Eating when riding is not carbo loading.
Carbs do not switch anything, it's not like turning a light off or or on as one pathway starts another does not stop. You will be metabolising carbs even in zone 1 and fat in zone 6 it's just the proportions that change.
As molgrips says it's not binary
It's interesting reading this thread and as a non-sports science/metabolic expert trying to follow.
I suppose the thing is (especially this time of year) us tubby desk bound gits periodically take a look at the litterateur and advice flying about and try to lash together some sort of training and diet plan.
With that in mind is the overarching advice still that "generally" doing a large volume (let's measure it in time rather than miles) of Z2 activity will help with both weight loss and endurance? I reckon I could rustle up 2-3hrs most weeknights, if I were motivated to sit on a trainer in the garage, listening to podcasts churning out a steady Z2 effort. Before I embark on a January of lost evenings, have I interpreted the advice anything like correctly?
With that in mind is the overarching advice still that “generally” doing a large volume (let’s measure it in time rather than miles) of Z2 activity will help with both weight loss and endurance?
Yes. We are all nerding over all this, but essentially yes you need a lot of slow miles and a much smaller amount of high intensity. The low intensity isn't just to make it easier, it trains your body in a specific important way but it takes a long time which is why you need a lot. The high intensity does make you faster quickly, but it's demanding on your body which is why you shouldn't do a lot.
I reckon I could rustle up 2-3hrs most weeknights
That's a lot. I'd say 6-8hrs a week is enough to have a really big impact for a recreational cyclist especially if you have never done it before. However, if you feel like it then go for it as long as your body can take it. You might find your knees get a bit sore riding on a trainer that long.
Yes for endurance. There’s some studies showing that people who maintain a little intensity go on to hit a higher peak (with their high intensity work) later in the season than those that do just Z2. So anything along the lines of 80/20 90/10 will be good.
For diet- not necessarily. It’s just calories in, calories out. So obvs high intensity burns more in the same time but over a session inc warm up, cool down and rest periods- the difference may not be that great. Your body may burn more post exercise calories with HIIT too as it takes energy to get back to homeostasis.
I like low Z2 for a weight-loss phase because you can do it day in day out without ever really getting glycogen depleted and craving a binge to restock. And as you get fitter with it, you can cut right back on the carbs mid ride. That enabled me to build up enough of a deficit to be able to pretty much eat normally with the family etc. It never felt like I was dieting.
You want the fat to get used and increase the numbers of mitochondria in the cells.
For me, the 'increase mitochondria' is the main point of the Z2*, not weight loss or becoming fat adapted, but I hadn't heard anything about choice of fuel altering or impacting mitochondria development? From what little I think I understand that doesn't seem correct?
*actually the main point is just achieving some sort of consistency with my riding that isn't impacted by constantly over-reaching on the turbo mid-week 🙄
With that in mind is the overarching advice still that “generally” doing a large volume (let’s measure it in time rather than miles) of Z2 activity will help with both weight loss and endurance?
ime, as someone reading the tech of this thread out of interest and reference to what else I've read (skimmed) over the years but with no detailed knowledge of the physiology of it all, fwiw -
I'm not sure if large volume is the point, ime 2 rides of 2hrs or 1x2hrs + 1x3hrs a week would maintain my base as well as being where I started with all this. I've done much more over periods but I didn't find it changed my general base, it was done in years when I was training for long distance events or rides and wanted the time on the bike for conditioning.
Yes, Z2 is the key to endurance ime. Physically as well as mentally - when you can ride 80-100 miles at base pace and not feel tired (not compared to 100 miles with an eye on the clock) it changes how you see distances.
Definitely measure Z2 in time not miles. I have no idea of my winter mileage but I generally do >6-8hrs at base pace a week Nov-Feb.
I don't think Z2 time helps with weight loss in itself. I drop weight more noticeably when I'm doing a weekly threshold session among my other riding, 20-25mins in total at LT. Feel like that revs up my metabolism more or for longer overall.
Z2 base miles do enable me to ride a long way on very little as well as ride further in spring/summer so overall it's good for total calories burned but I don't see Z2 as a weight control method in itself, not personally.
Some of my Z2 rides are in the morning and fasted for 1.5-3hrs. I did a winter where I was up to 6-7hrs Z2 after 22hrs fasted (dinner night before, set off to finish the ride 4-5pm and eat in the last 5-10 miles) and doing that at least every other weekend Jan-Feb. I don't think it did me much good aside from knowing it can be done. Endurance that spring-summer was fine but I felt like I lost some power, though I wasn't bonking there's possibly muscle metabolism or damage in later stages of those long unfuelled rides? Either that or cumulative fatigue. Anyway, I very rarely do it now.
Most training guides I read have Z2 endurance sessions of 2-3 hours. Perhaps 2-3hrs in Z2 at a time is all we really need.
My own experience of started fasted riding 1-3x a week, around 2hrs each time at either Z2 or mixed SS MTB pace, was that it was part of a period where my ability to ride on reserves improved hugely. While I know fuelling makes me faster and less physically stressed overall I'm happy riding at a steady pace for 2-3hrs on nothing these days. Add in a few efforts, ride SS MTB or or up the pace to a brisk social ride and I'll get through a Belvita type cereal bar an hour or every 90 mins.
These days I'd say the Z2 time is the main gain for endurance, unsure of how fasted and Z2 inter-relate though.
I may be wrong here, but I think mitochondria development is influenced by intensity - more at lower intensities and less (moving to muscular development and lactic response/shuttling) at higher intensities.
Either way is not a hard line as stated above, a varies between individuals but is roughly recorded as Lactate Threshold.
Both systems support each other - going faster for longer needs endurance to underpin strength and vo2max.
I may be wrong here, but I think mitochondria development is influenced by intensity – more at lower intensities and less (moving to muscular development and lactic response/shuttling) at higher intensities.
It's how I'd understood some of the articles on Joe Friel's blog at a basic level - Z2 pace being most effective for that. The analogy was something like boring out the engine first then tuning the increased capacity.
Going back to Dr ISM, I think the difference is in the type of transporters you promote. With high intensity work- you build the MCT 1’s which are designed to rapidly move lactate out of muscle cells and into the blood.
With low intensity work, you build the MCT 4’s which encourage lactate from your fast twitch fibres to be used as a fuel by the adjacent slow twitch fibres.
That’s getting way beyond my GCSE Biology knowledge but makes sense.
Just playing it out to help my understanding-
Someone with a Zwift racing, chainganging, Sufferfesting, Peleton or other HIIT type bump in performance gets good at shuttling lactate into the blood via MCT1.
Someone with a large base in contrast, can actually use a lot of the lactate as fuel via MCT4, thus keep their blood lactate lower for longer and likely do harder efforts after a couple of hours than the HIIT rider.
This would also explain how periodisation works. You build a big foundation of MCT 4 and then as you approach your A race, you let that pathway plateau/decay slightly and fire up some MCT 1’s.
For me, the ‘increase mitochondria’ is the main point of the Z2*, not weight loss or becoming fat adapted
Well the weight loss comes from the fact you can and are doing much more of it. You may burn 30% more calories per hour doing high intensity work but you can do (say) 400% more low intensity without becoming fatigued, so the overall calorie output is much greater.
I drop weight more noticeably when I’m doing a weekly threshold session among my other riding, 20-25mins in total at LT. Feel like that revs up my metabolism more or for longer overall.
There are many articles saying that high intensity work is better for weight loss, but I am not sure this is the case for everyone. If I do high intensity stuff or even weights I rapidly get fitter and/or stronger but I don't lose weight because my appetite goes through the roof, and if I don't eat enough I don't recover. I think that the balance of hormones produced by an individual in response to training load varies a lot, and how the individual then responds to those hormones also varies.
Last winter I did two Zwift races a week; this time I am doing only one and trying to do Zone Netflix the rest of the time. The z2 has definitely helped loads with endurance, as I went flat out on Tuesday and wasn't tired the next day; but I was very hungry and ended up eating more carbs than I was planning (although I kept it healthy). If I only do z2 then I don't experience the hunger.
You may burn 30% more calories per hour doing high intensity work but you can do (say) 400% more low intensity without becoming fatigued, so the overall calorie output is much greater.
I read something about HI work raising your metabolism significantly for a number of hours afterwards, much more so than Z2.
I might just burn more calories at + after HI because I'm less adapted to it Vs Z2.
jameso
I read something about HI work raising your metabolism significantly for a number of hours afterwards, much more so than Z2.
I might just burn more calories at + after HI because I’m less adapted to it Vs Z2.
There was a health/fitness/weight loss program on a few years ago where they talked about this. It might have been that Michael Mosely bloke.
He did a run hooked up to lab equipment that measured exactly how many calories he'd used during a run on a treadmill.
They then looked at his metabolism over the next 24hours (might have been longer, actually) and found that it was raised for a significant time after the exercise. I think he burned something silly like 3x more calories (above base load) in the 24 hours after the run, than he did during the actual run.
Which is also why you are still fatigued if you try and do too much consecutive HIIT 😃
Z2 is about consistency too. My upper Z2 calories are over 800/Hr now. And I can do that again tomorrow.
If I zwift race for an hourx, even at 1100kcals, I’m already behind 90 mins of z2.
That’s a lot. I’d say 6-8hrs a week is enough to have a really big impact for a recreational cyclist especially if you have never done it before. However, if you feel like it then go for it as long as your body can take it. You might find your knees get a bit sore riding on a trainer that long.
Well looking at my available time and schedule clashes I would hopefully (initially at least) try to squeeze in 3x2hrs (maybe 2x2 + 1x3) between Monday and Friday, alternate evenings makes sense but I may need to be flexible, I've got the time and it would beat sitting on my arse in front of the TV or ducking out of night rides because it's a bit too wet.
I will still manage to do 1 or 2 commutes each week as an alternative, but I'll try to keep those similarly low 'n' slow efforts to contribute to my Z2 volume...
Then at the weekends more intensity can creep in. I was also going to do the odd 5k trail run from my doorstep, I'd been doing that before Xmas but slacked off, and get in at least one 2-4hr Road/Gravel ride that can be more Z3+. I'll try to stick to that at least until the weather and sunlight picks up around March (fingers crossed).
I hesitate to use the term "Base miles" but it feels like that's what I'm heading towards with a large volume of Z2, Meh...
I had also been doing some 3x20min "threshold" sessions on the trainer to try and build capacity but TBH I may as well go for a run to mix things up and going for Hard, short sessions indoors wasn't really helping manage weight. Running seems better, hopefully large Vol Z2 will contribute along with cutting back on the bread (I do love toast and sandwiches)...
I'll call it a loose "Plan" for now (same as every January) and see how I'm going after a month, that's about the level of "training plan" I can manage and adhere to I think, it will require review by mid Feb no doubt.
Well I attempted a ~50min "Z2 commute" in this morning and managed to keep under Z2 for roughly ~50% of the ride (My watch gives a 'time in zone' breakdown of an activity which is handy), my Avg HR is nicely in the middle of my Z2 range, but it was suprisingly hard to manage my effort down, climbs would push me over then there were plenty of flat sections directly into a head wind. All while being buzzed by cars... I don't think trying to manage HR down works on my way to work.
At one point I was pedalling along and got a series of alerts and chirps as I topped out of Z2 and then dropped back in.
Riding home should be easier to maintain more time in Z2, all the climbs become descents and that headwind will be a tailwind (hopefully).
Obviously a fully Z2 ride is pretty much impossible unless you live in a traffic free, pancake flat wasteland but what percentage of your time on the bike (as opposed to a trainer) would you hope to be in Z2 if targeting?
I think I may be spending more time on a trainer as part of this little experiment...
I did 2hrs outdoors on Tuesday. Rolling hills.
And managed 72% Z2/Z1 by power or 87% Z2 HR.
I did 2hrs indoors yesterday and it was 91% Z2 HR.
Just ride to HR/the talk test outdoors and let the watts fall where they may.
2 and half hours outdoors for me last night, just riding on feel and occasionally glancing at HR which never went above Z2
82.6% Z1/Z2 I never worry about straying as long as it's not sustained and the HR stays below LT1
Sunday Dyfi
Monday raced
Tues raced
Thurs raced
😉
The only reason i had a HRM/power is because you need to for racing....
you're all bonkers 😀
2hrs 20 mins tomorrow on Zwift Flanders Endurance ride at 08:30, feel free to join in 😀
Z2 dog walk at 8am
you’re all bonkers
Did you win your race?
If not, you would have been beaten by people who probably are also bonkers...
If not, you would have been beaten by people who probably are also bonkers…
I'm ok with being beaten 🙂 I came to terms with that a long long time ago
As mentioned elsewhere, I’m not taking OTT training Jibes from someone who owns a shockwiz 🤣🤣
You’ll be going to a skills coach next 😉
Sunday Dyfi
Monday raced
Tues raced
Thurs raced😉
The only reason i had a HRM/power is because you need to for racing….
you’re all bonkers 😀
I do like reading about yours and Weeksy Jnrs adventures but we've all got different lifestyles, free time and resources available.
If I had to keep up with a super keen teenager and had the spare time and cash as you seemingly do, I probably wouldn't be mulling such mundane things as how to do a bit of "structured HR based training" between work and family commitments.
I've no doubt you're substantially fitter than me, we all know you get the turns in, but I'd rather not be belittled by someone just because life has handed them a couple more opportunities to spend more time doing something they enjoy. It's great you've got a ready-made riding buddy, spare time and sufficient funds to live the lifestyle, But try not to bend rule 1.
Quick question, this is purely theoretical as I am an avid non trainer who just likes riding bikes...are those quoting the gospel according to zone 2 telling me that if I went out and did 2 hours zone 2 followed by riding about how I want to for an hour it would mean less mitochondrial recruitment than just riding zone 2. I understand crosshairs desire for volume to aid weight loss hypothesis but not this.
the grown-ups will be along once they've finished their 5hr spins 😉
I *THINK* that the theory goes that stressing the "low end" system can only be done at Z2 (or lower but that'd not be maximal). Once you step above that, the high end system kicks in and stays "on" for half an hour or so and overrides the low end, regardless of how you then ride duribg that half hour.
... so I'm saying you'd get essentially all the benefit of yr first 2hr IF you stayed out of thehigher zones for all of that period, however you bugger about afterwards but you have to be strict for that first part
(IANISM)
If you're looking to be better at endurance riding then being efficient at burning calories is a benefit but this is opposite if you're looking to lose weight.
the grown-ups will be along once they’ve finished their 5hr spins
Morning! 😀
I drop weight more noticeably when I’m doing a weekly threshold session among my other riding, 20-25mins in total at LT. Feel like that revs up my metabolism more or for longer overall.
Calories in vs Calories out is the same whatever zone you are riding, and leaving a deficit will result in weight loss. But one warning here if you see immediate weight loss - average body stores 400-600g of glycogen, and each gram of glycogen attracts 3-4g of water. Therefore depleting your stores will show some pretty rapid weight loss, but it wont be "real" and as you restore it / rehydrate you're likely to see a swing in weight. This is one of the reasons worrying about daily weigh-ins is pointless and you should track weight consistently over a long period e.g. weekly weigh ins at the same time once a week for 3 months.
FWIW, I did my 2:20 today with an average of 194w, 1565cals burned. The trick now after lunch is to not react to hunger with anything other than a small protien snack until dinner time and leave some deficit on the table!
FWIW, I did my 2:20 today with an average of 194w, 1565cals burned.
I went for a ride of just under 3 hours!!!
Yeah, more z2 trumps less z2 but 2hrs Z2 and then….. is still better than 3hrs of mixed up stuff. Basically it can take 20mins after a burst of intensity to settle back into <LT1/VT1/fat max etc etc.
First z2 ride of my polarized plan tonight, 1.5hrs after being off the bike for 8 weeks.
I'm still wrestling with my I get more back pain for Z2/winter riding. I'm pretty sure it's an intensity/muscle recruitment thing (I don't believe theories about being cold as I usually dress pretty toasty).
I mucked about the other day pushing a lower cadence which feels easier recruiting glutes etc. but I understand lower cadences are less useful in Z2 as they recruit more fast twitch muscles. Problem is lower cadence does seem to make my back happier, which possibly explains why I usually feel better for riding gravel/CX than I do for riding easy road, it's impossible to spin a fast/smooth cadence constantly on the gravel bike in the mud!
So I guess I need to do a lot more gym work to achieve better core endurance/stability whilst twiddling easy gears in Z2 for hours on end.
Or just go back to plan A and smash around any old how and do sweetspot sessions on the turbo instead of Z2 😎
I’m pretty sure it’s an intensity/muscle recruitment thing (I don’t believe theories about being cold as I usually dress pretty toasty).
Though I've been the opposite to this,
Problem is lower cadence does seem to make my back happier,
usually a masher not a spinner and low cadence causes back tension in the last year or so,
Have you tried a kettlebell?
You mentioned muscle use and one thing I've learned in recent weeks is how hard kettlebell swings work the lower central back, the glutes and muscles along the rear of the thighs. So much so that I've been climbing in Z2 at 30rpm again, a strength builder I've not been able to do for some time due to back tension issues. It feels like I'm using certain leg muscles more, like the kettlebell has engaged muscles that desk jockying may have weakened - but that's a 'feels like' not anything credible. It'll largely be a bit of localised muscle soreness meaning I notice that area when pedalling. Anyway, combined with basic daily hamstring and quad stretches it all seems to be adding up well. I'm very gym-shirky and CBA with 30min + periods of reps etc but the kettlebell is great for easy fast results.
Basically it can take 20mins after a burst of intensity to settle back into <LT1/VT1/fat max etc etc.
What counts as a 'burst of intensity' here?
My upper Z2 limit is around 133 to 135bpm. I might go to 140-142bpm on a climb but I'll back off or even stop as soon as I feel my HR rising and I know my effort levels well enough that I'd rarely go over 140 before backing off. So it may be over 135 for 10-15 seconds, rarely 30 seconds, it drops back pretty fast these days.
Currently doing the Gran Fondo Plan on Zwift. I have this scheduled for the weekend:
I'm happy with the duration but wondered what the point of the warm up and 5 min SS blocks is. As I understand it, the warm up will just deplete glycogen stores and train muscles to go there rather than burn fat. Given that the actual Zone 2 blocks are 25 mins and it can take 20 mins to settle back to LT1 etc, I'm unsure of its purpose.
You mentioned muscle use and one thing I’ve learned in recent weeks is how hard kettlebell swings work the lower central back, the glutes and muscles along the rear of the thighs.
Yeah, I need to work up to these big sort of exercises, I've learned how twitchy my back muscles are in general so kettle bell swings give me the absolute fear! As an example, my lats are one sneeze away from spasm at the moment because I went too hard with some gym ball dead bugs! (squeezing the gym ball between knee and forearm whilst engaging hip flexors/TVA).
I'm building up to bigger low back moves with lots of supermen/low back extensions on the gym ball though.
The only reason I bring the back pain thing up in a Z2 thread is because it seems more of an issue the easier I go on the bike 🙄
Given that the actual Zone 2 blocks are 25 mins and it can take 20 mins to settle back to LT1 etc, I’m unsure of its purpose.
Yeah, I would question the purpose of going beyond Z2 in a warm-up if the session is Z2! I guess you could get away with extremely short bursts but it still begs the question why?
I warm up for Z2 sessions by just very gradually ramping up, although pertinent to my issues with back pain (above) I do now try to do some activation type stuff before the workout
https://cinchcycling.cc/blogs/news/how-to-prevent-back-pain-when-cycling
So many Zwift workouts have "pointless" variations in effort as regards training, in an attempt to prevent the average user not dying of boredom.
Ive been off the bike for a while, and any exercise since before Christmas so started doing some Zone 2 stuff on Rouvy. I find it ok riding round something like Lake Garda, stuff to look at, slight changes in incline etc. Bloody hard not to respond to people coming past though ! I just have iPlayer as a bit of distraction.
According to Strava though on a 1hr ride I am only averaging ~ 115W !
So many Zwift workouts have “pointless” variations in effort as regards training, in an attempt to prevent the average user not dying of boredom
So true. They've recently increased the number of ~30 min workouts which for most serious cyclings, investing proper money in a turbo etc, are completely worthless. Suspect I might be better trying to mimic a TrainerRoad Zone 2 workout.
Ref: Back pain. Mine flares up with real life steep climbing i.e. forceful, low cadence stuff. My only issue with Zone 2 is a numb backside as you're putting far less force through the pedals and all your bodyweight on the saddle.
I've been doing about 4 weeks now of Zone 2 after reading some of this and watching a GCN thing.
I use Rouvy, which has some options of fairly flat rides with vaguely interesting scenery. The max Ive done so far is about 1hr 15. After that Ive had enough as bum going numb from being in the saddle so long, and well its being on a bike in the garage.
I am really enjoying the benefits. I've lost weight and I am not as tired and my legs are not as tired. Its translated to better fitness off the bike running too.
I am not looking at racing or doing any events this coming year so happy just to build my fitness slowly.
@jamesso
I think it's important to look at all of this stuff through squinted eyes a bit.
The second GCN interview with ISM clarifies the 'little bit of intensity' question. ISM himself says that going above z2 on a hill, or pulling away from a stop, or the occasional jump on intensity really isn't going to make a huge difference unless it results in lactate production that doesn't disappate pretty quickly. You don't have to be a metronome - but the more metronomic you are the better. So banging out a best effort 5min vo2 Kom is going to have you burning glycogen for a while to recover. Getting around a car for 15s at vo2 power is not.
A good analogue is - did the effort functionality change how your RPE - in terms of breath becoming more laboured etc, or make it harder following the effort to stick at that good z2 pace. If so, problematic. If not, fine.
You don't need to stare at your head unit to make sure you're +/- 2W whilst accelerating from a stop sign.
^ thanks - I was meaning to come back to my Q here,
What counts as a ‘burst of intensity’
I watched that GCN episode with Inigo San Millan the other night which answered it well, as well as made me think my (trad from % HR max and LTHR) Z2 upper limit is a bit low. Going over it to 140-145 is fine as I can still talk+chat at that pace, just a few added pauses.
From the other episode with the presenter finding his Z2 on the test rig I understood that flat-ish spot then ramp up feeling.
Z2 rides just got a bit more fun and quicker, more useful perhaps, good stuff.
The episodes also got onto how slow twitch muscles don't produce lactate and I expect I've done a lot of work on those muscles over the last 10 yrs or so - long steady miles, low RPM low HR climbing, SSing etc and generally having a low cadence on the bike. Very little on the fast twitch apart from general MTBing. But I don't get anywhere near the amount of leg acid burn as I used to when working at my max sustainable 5-10 min climbing pace, which I took to be age and lack of ability to work the muscles hard. Seems there more to it than that. My sprint is fairly hopeless but I'll take that as a fair flipside to the gain in endurance and ability to hold a pace.
Just reading your post @FunkyDunc made me think it's worth reminding everyone that there are "Riders choice" workouts in Zwift (everyone gets 25Km free per calendar month, ride on Ven Top that is hilly from start and you will get more time for your 25Km distance 😉 ), which allow you to ride any route and not get the normal extra resistance for climbing hills.
Your gear selection and cadence decides your power output, not the terrain.
I'm sure there are several duration lengths of this "workout," but one is found in https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/60-90-minutes-to-burn/90min-riders-choice
I’ve more or less been doing just base work since October now 🤣 First under/un fuelled for weight loss and then since Xmas as part of a plan inspired by Friel’s book.
I’ve added on some Tempo progression now as part of Base 2- as I want to try for 2h at 300w this summer.
This isn’t really a Friel workout but kind of fits with his M1 or maybe AE3 from the workout menu.
Last week was 1x120 @ 250 and this afternoon was 1x120 @ 260.
I felt amazing today! Ended up on 2h outdoors in the sun at 263w average. Even better, HR was just 158bpm which is only really one bpm into Tempo! So I reckon the top of my Z2 is definitely at least 250w now.
This highlights the flaw with FTP based zones as I really doubt my FTP would test at 333w (which it would need to be for 75% to equal 250w).
I’m almost looking forward to Chainy season now to see if it actually translates into better performance. (And how everyone else stacks up after a variety of approaches to winter)