Your brand new e-bike is obsolete

That's obsolete before it even hits the market - once the pinion set up is fully rolled out

I heard it likened to buying a new PC in the 90s - there was always something better and cheaper just around the corner, but if you wanted one you just had to jump in and stop looking at what you could have got instead in 6 months.

I'm not sure you'll see deals as good as they currently are for a long, long time. Happy to have someone else test the first wave instead.

Kind of surprised after all the development shots and hints that it's just a repackaged Brose.

MIne isn't.  It has a bosch motor

That’s obsolete before it even hits the market – once the pinion set up is fully rolled out

Yeah, combined gearbox motor units such as the Pinion E-Drive are where the future lies. The SRAM Motor is 2.9kg but the Pinion with motor and gearbox is only 4kg combined. Once you factor in the derailleur and cassette on the SRAM (and all other current Ebikes) there nothing in it weight wise. Then the Pinion has the benefits of weight distribution, reduced unsprung mass, fewer wear issues with chains and cassettes, etc...

I'm sure Sram have already planned the obsolescence date for this product line.

I'd prefer to stick to un-integrated systems myself, so I can spec 1o or 11-speed Shimano transmission if I want (as Kelvin hints).

@simon_g That’s a good analogy.

You need to jump in. Or not.

The sad thing is that your frame just becomes another consumable part. It’s why I got the cheapest (reasonable) e-gravel-bike I could get instead of pushing the boat out for something posh. At least the aluminium frame can be recycled in a few years when I’m looking for something new to attach the wheels, fork & bars to.

There's a fair few people on emtb forums who ask about "upgrading" to the latest version of the motor, and I've never really understood why because it costs a fortune and there's very little change in performance or weight.

The legal limit is still 250w, and battery techology hasn't really changed in the last 10 years (they are just using more cells .. or less cells and less powerful motor) so I can't see there being any great advances in power/weight.

The only thing I'm interested in is a truly repairable ebike motor with spares availability. Intradrive is the only thing that looks like it might achieve that at the moment.

The ‘new greatest thing ever’ has arrived.

The article you link to just makes it sound like another viable option, certainly nothing more. It also seems to have some strange quirks like only 2 power settings and not being able to shut it off from the (shared) remote. None of the brands listed have been those doing massively reduced prices recently either?

I've been using a Brose for 5 years now. The only thing lacking compared to any other ebike I've ridden with is the fact that the newer bikes seem more efficient with regards to battery usage (I've only got a 504wh battery anyway), but 95% of our group rides are up to 20 miles/2500-3000ft and I never run out.

For longer rides, I've got a spare battery

How is this a game changer for the end consumer? The coast shifting sounds interesting - but everything else is just tying you into sram. Particularly the dropper / motor remote. I run a 210mm Oneup dropper and AXS only does 170mm travel and you have to charge the thing.

Where it is a game changer is probably bike companies when you can almost entirely equip your new bike from sram so perhaps that makes your supply chain more simple.

Meanwhile I was at the bikepark today doing loads of laps on my ancient 3.5 year old kenevo. No plans to change it. It's absolutely brilliant.

Polini appear to make a really good, fully rebuildable motor and control system. My mate has one on a Fulgur Mula and is utterly smitten

Isn't the point of this mostly the automatic shifting aimed squarely at the sort of e-mtb riders who struggle to shift cleanly with a manual transmission and just want to point and shoot without thinking hard about what gear to be in? No more clunk, biff every shift.

I doubt those folk are going to be remotely bothered about integrated gear boxes, but very likely to like the idea of a bike that does the shifing for you as well as most of the pedalling.

If it works as advertised, it'll be great for those guys, but probably of limited interest to the typical eSTWer, who likes to think of themself as a mountain biker who just happens to have power assistance...

Large, powerful motor, massive battery...it doesn't sound very cutting edge or where the market has really been heading?

Unless it weighs 200g or something. What am I missing?

The legal limit is still 250w,

It's much more murky than that. You can't exceed 250W over 30 minutes. But you can for shorter periods. So this one is I think 680W. Seems crazy to me but that is the rules

I don't want no autoshift changing gears when it sees fit.

“It also seems to have some strange quirks like only 2 power settings and not being able to shut it off from the (shared) remote.”

This is absolutely shit. I mean, WTAF?!! I turn my Levo off all the time, even on a solo ride where I’m using loads of power to blast uphill or flat stuff I’ll switch it to zero power once there’s plenty of gravity - the last thing I want is the motor kicking in on a steep downhill!

Unless it weighs 200g or something. What am I missing?

You're missing that it's not aimed at people like us. It's aimed at folk like my mate who has no real interest in conventional mountain bikes, but loves being able to blast up hills and blast down them again with minimum thought or discomfort. He would quite happily not pedal at all - it makes him feel fitter because he does have to turn the cranks over gently - and no doubt would love autoshifting. He doesn't care if his bike is light or heavy and wouldn't really know if it was or wasn't, cos he never rides anything else anyway. He doesn't want to think about riding. He would regard switching the motor off at any point as the act of a complete idiot.

tldt: even the folk here who think they're proper e-mtbers aren't really proper e-mtbers, they're mountain bikers who now ride ebikes.

You’re missing that it’s not aimed at people like us. It’s aimed at folk like my mate who has no real interest in conventional mountain bikes, but loves being able to blast up hills and blast down them again with minimum thought or discomfort. He would quite happily not pedal at all – it makes him feel fitter because he does have to turn the cranks over gently – and no doubt would love autoshifting. He doesn’t care if his bike is light or heavy and wouldn’t really know if it was or wasn’t, cos he never rides anything else anyway. He doesn’t want to think about riding. He would regard switching the motor off at any point as the act of a complete idiot.

i know your mate !

That’s obsolete before it even hits the market – once the pinion set up is fully rolled out

That'll never happen I'm afraid, regardless of how good the pinion set up is, it'll always be a very niche product as they can't compete with the larger OEM players who'll offer better pricing to bike companies. They are effectively small fish in a big pond in terms of the ebike market.

Thats why Sram have went down this route, they can force bike companies to fully kit out their bikes with sram at a lower price since this powertrain system is fully integrated and try and increase market share. Same with shimano and their autoshift system.

Integrated gearbox/motor will only take off if one of the big companies does it.

My opinion is bosch might do something along the lines of the pinion system in the future as they can't offer an integrated drivetrain autoshift system like shimano and sram have now, plus they have experience with gearboxes in other industries so I think they'll develop a gearbox motor to try and stand out and maintain market share.

I imagine Pinion will rule the market in the same way that their gearbox has made derailleur systems obsolete, like people having been telling us they will be doing since Honda got involved.

I've no hatred for ebikes, it's all people riding bikes, which is ace.
However, I want no part of this. So much locking in to a manufacturers ecosystem. The remote thing is such an obvious move to sell expensive dropper posts that don't fit with my desires. I'm also not flush enough of pocket to go AXS.
TBH though, is not aimed at me. I guess buying the package from SRAM may help manufacturers bring prices down? (Said with one eyebrow raised and tongue planted firmly in cheek)

This is absolutely shit. I mean, WTAF?!! I turn my Levo off all the time, even on a solo ride where I’m using loads of power to blast uphill or flat stuff I’ll switch it to zero power once there’s plenty of gravity – the last thing I want is the motor kicking in on a steep downhill!

You can turn it off from the top tube mounted display, just not the remote.

tldt: even the folk here who think they’re proper e-mtbers aren’t really proper e-mtbers, they’re mountain bikers who now ride ebikes.

What on earth is a “proper e-mtber” when it’s at home!?

What on earth is a “proper e-mtber” when it’s at home!?

Someone who has completely embraced e-mtbing without any background or interest in conventional mountain bikes.  Look around you on the trails some time... not bothered about elegant engineering solutions, just about how fast and how transparently the bike goes. My mate, referenced above, doesn't know what the adjusters do on his fork and doesn't want to, he just wants it to work. That's the market auto-shifting is aimed at, all imho etc 🙂

5 minutes on an ebike specific forum highlights them.  I’ve noticed loads on the whyte forum: often they’re short lived, have bought on a whim, on finance and will sell up with maybe 300miles on the clock having destroyed the drivetrain shuffling along at 5rpm in top gear, everywhere.

So much locking in to a manufacturers ecosystem.

I can remember an article in the early 90's written by Ritchie Cunningham bemoaning the fact that Shimano could offer whole groupsets to bike manufacturers, and thus locking out the competition.

However, I want no part of this. So much locking in to a manufacturers ecosystem.

This is an odd thing to be concerned about.

I don't see anyone with a Ford Mondeo complaining that they can't fit a Vauxhall Vectra gearbox. Or anyone with a Ducati trying to use a Yamaha fuel tank.

 It’s aimed at folk like my mate...

I see groups of those guys every weekend in the Peak and Calderdale, and they all seems to having a great time TBH. I suspect that most of them couldn't tell you what motor or shifters they're bike has without looking and they have zero interest anyway, their having way too much fun honing up and down the trails to care about it.

its a brose motor with less features than other bikes with brose motors.  You'd have to be some sort of idiot to buy a bike with one of those fitted.

I’m wondering how SRAM will have made it even more unreliable than the standard one. It is what they are good at. I’m sure it will all boil down to who does the best oem deals

BadlyWiredDogFull Member
What on earth is a “proper e-mtber” when it’s at home!?
Someone who has completely embraced e-mtbing without any background or interest in conventional mountain bikes.  Look around you on the trails some time… not bothered about elegant engineering solutions, just about how fast and how transparently the bike goes. My mate, referenced above, doesn’t know what the adjusters do on his fork and doesn’t want to, he just wants it to work. That’s the market auto-shifting is aimed at, all imho etc 🙂

Ad that doesn't of course mean that auto shifting is rubbish, I suspect it'd be fun in the way that riding a singlespeed means you just don't have to think about gear shifting, so you can focus on other stuff more cleanly. And I'm not knocking people who don't care about e-mtb tech either, if they're enjoying themselves, that's (mostly) what matters, no?

You’d have to be some sort of idiot to buy a bike with one of those fitted.

I'm guessing that near enough 100% of folks buying an e-bike are not going to make that decision based just on what motor it has fitted, let alone what version of which particular motor it's got fitted.

that’s (mostly) what matters, no?

Entirely, I'd say.

This is an odd thing to be concerned about.

I don’t see anyone with a Ford Mondeo complaining that they can’t fit a Vauxhall Vectra gearbox. Or anyone with a Ducati trying to use a Yamaha fuel tank.

You know as well as I do that that's in no way a parallel.
You buy a car as a car. Most manufacturers don't actively sell a shell with the idea of it being built up in a relatively parts agnostic way. There's no relatively standardised mounting for gearboxes etc etc.
Obviously exceptions with heritage shells etc, but that's not the norm. It's not 1930 anymore, the days of coachbuilt bodies on a manufacturer's frame and powertrain are over

What's being introduced here is a move to the 'complete car' model, and I'm not comfortable with that.

However, I want no part of this. So much locking in to a manufacturers ecosystem.

This is an odd thing to be concerned about.

It's really not.

And you might change your mind if you were locked in to Sram spare parts pricing.

You buy a car as a car.

Hold onto your hat. Most folks buy a bike as a bike.

And you might change your mind if you were locked in to Sram spare parts pricing.

Again, this is the same argument that was trotted out continually when Shimano was kings of the OEM world.

“You can turn it off from the top tube mounted display, just not the remote.”

Yes, I noticed that - but that’s as stupid as dropper posts without a remote. If I’m riding an unfamiliar trail solo I really don’t want to have to take my left hand off the bars to turn the motor off as I crest a steep climb and then drop into a tech descent. Nor do I want to be doing that when I’m taking my toddler to nursery on the same bike with the top tube hidden under the child seat’s bar.

Cool, I get that. Never really ridden many ebikes so that part of it isn't something I fully appreciate!

Again, this is the same argument that was trotted out continually when Shimano was kings of the OEM world.

Yeah, it was pretty frustrating, I think it's great that we now have the two main players as well as Microsoft/TRP/Pinion etc. Yeah there's still often a need to stick to the same shifter/mech etc but that's only a small part. Look at how much of a PITA it is if you like SRAM brakes and Shimano shifters, for instance. Now imagine you don't even have the choice, and you can't run any other dropper without an absolute ergonomic nightmare by your left thumb.

The article you link to just makes it sound like another viable option, certainly nothing more. It also seems to have some strange quirks like only 2 power settings and not being able to shut it off from the (shared) remote. None of the brands listed have been those doing massively reduced prices recently either?

The speccing power of sram: drivetrain+ suspension + motor = this powertrain will be everywhere before you know it

hopefully by the time im old enough to justify an ebike the tech will have settled down and something a bit more standardised, repairable and upgradeable/futureproof will have been sorted out

I watched that YT vid linked above last night, and was expecting some amazing new motor tech. But I was disappointed.

Turned out to be some incremental improvements in technology all added together.

Just marketing BS again

Look at how much of a PITA it is if you like SRAM brakes and Shimano shifters

I've no idea honestly, is it much of a PITA? The only thing on this that I can really get a teeny bit wound up about is the Reverb dropper that's probs a bit short for really tall folks, and it is stupid amounts of money. And I reckon that even that isn't going to put off the sorts of punters that these bikes are aimed at.

To mix and match Shimano and SRAM stuff on the bars and get something that feels 'ok' is a pain, yeah!
I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying these are my concerns, that may only be relevant to me 😀

kimbers

The speccing power of sram: drivetrain+ suspension + motor = this powertrain will be everywhere before you know it

The warranty power of SRAM is something I'm more keen on, they are generally very good and quick with fixing or replacing stuff. And they have very deliberately focused on Transmission being good at shifting under load, I suspect it will last well as a result. Thy did drop the ball with the controller and the 170 reverb thing, I would hope there's an OEM controller somewhere that solves that issue.

Now imagine you don’t even have the choice,

Again. Most. Folks. Don't. GAS. They really don't. It's only a marginal percentage of riders who are looking at things like what level of shifter and from which manufacturer it is, or whether the fork is Select or Select +, most folks don't care about any of that shit beyond the very basic of information.

Hold onto your hat. Most folks buy a bike as a bike.

Ah, that's why nobody trips over themselves to buy shiny new geegaws for their bike,they just buy a new bike with them on instead!

How could I not see that?

nickc

Look at how much of a PITA it is if you like SRAM brakes and Shimano shifters

I’ve no idea honestly, is it much of a PITA?

Considering the bikes with this motor will all have SRAM Transmission, I'd say not very much. You'd have to be a committed oddball to want to buy a bike with Transmission and then look to swap it all out for Shimano. Brakes, no issue, can mount the shifter/controller to the bars same as any other.

I suspect it’d be fun in the way that riding a singlespeed means you just don’t have to think about gear shifting, so you can focus on other stuff more cleanly.

Exactly. For the same reasons automatic or electric cars are nicer to drive because you don't have to change gear. Some will prefer the manual 'driver's' experience but the majority aren't / in future won't be interested.

Personally all the complexity, potential for problems and the cost means I'll get my simplicity from a singlespeed a lot of the time but it's clear why SRAM or Shimano are ignoring that dwindling niche, yet applying some of the simplicity of experience in other ways.

Coast shifting .. oh yes

Ah, that’s why nobody trips over themselves to buy shiny new geegaws for their bike

The shiny aftermarket geegaw market (great word BTW 🤣) is teeny by comparison to the gigantic world of punters walking into the shop and saying "That one, please" and never changing anything ever again. That's why bikes like these exist.

Am I missing something?  It’s a Brose motor. Which Specialized have used for years. And it has the option of automatic shifting. Which Shimano have had with their motors for some time.

if you don’t want to use auto shifting nothing stops you mixing and matching gear systems/group set aftermarket. And most manufacturers already fit either complete Shimano or sram group sets

Am I missing something?

Just the unwarranted hype in this thread title and the STW report.

Am I missing something?

nope.  Its a brose motor with less features than other brose motors with SRAM written on the side of it.   Another list of bikes I'll not ever be buying.

Am I missing something?  It’s a Brose motor. Which Specialized have used for years. And it has the option of automatic shifting. Which Shimano have had with their motors for some time.

if you don’t want to use auto shifting nothing stops you mixing and matching gear systems/group set aftermarket.

The features are not new in themselves but bringing it all into one integrated package is the thing - you could get these features together at OE level before but I expect there's a higher level of functionality or UX that SRAM will have got to here (if not, why not). Mixing and matching aftermarket is, as nickc is getting at, is increasingly the realm of us / niche enthusiasts.

jameso

I expect there’s a higher level of functionality or UX that SRAM will have got to here

Think it's a lower level of complication and a higher degree of idiot-proofing that they've gone for, to suit the kind of custoemr who's not a faffer and a customiser like us nerds are.

Yeah, This button  make go fast, this button make go long time.

My level of technology

a higher level of functionality or UX that SRAM will have got to here

Think it’s a lower level of complication and a higher degree of idiot-proofing

Agree. Same thing? Great user experience = no snags, seamless function

nickc
Full Member
Yeah, This button make go fast, this button make go long time.

My level of technology

They've so nearly got it right. I want one button. Go fast, go long!

This clickbait popped up in my YT suggestions, it's a "really gorgeous looking e-bike" apparently! Does 30mph pedalling along the street while the bloke says "hoping this car pulls away".

Apart from the fact the bike pictured in that you tube vid is vomit inducing

Does 30mph pedalling along the street

Those tiny rotors and the weight of that bike doing 30 is death waiting around the corner.

Interesting objective talk through