[Closed] Yikes - long gentle rides whilst losing weight, say hello to Mr Grumpypants!

It doesn't sound to me like you're actually riding for enjoyment, in which case I wouldn't bother.

That's odd for me its the other way round.
Wife finally says 'for gods sake go out on your bike' and I am all smiles and chilled after.

It doesn’t sound to me like you’re actually riding for enjoyment, in which case I wouldn’t bother.

Au contraire! I'm loving all my riding at the moment, Saturday AM in particular despite the damp, misty conditions and almost constant gently headwind.

But since I'm sticking with low intensity rides anyway while I work through various physio and rehab stuff it just seems like a good opportunity to shift some excess weight. Just need to learn how to combine the two...

all smiles and chilled after

Same here, for the most part, that's why I'm anxious to avoid a repeat of this weekend!

Ride on Sunday afternoon and inflict your post-ride grumpiness on the working week?

Also allow yourself a bit of time to get used to the longer distances if you've not done them for a while.

That’s odd for me its the other way round.
Wife finally says ‘for gods sake go out on your bike’ and I am all smiles and chilled after.

Ditto.

However I haven't got the OP's manorexia...

Obvious answer – eat more for longer rides?

The 63 mile ride you did sounds like it took about four hours correct? Being sensible about it you should have been nibbling on something every half hour or so after the first hour. The (very) rough rule of thumb I seem remember is that you need to take on about 20-30g of carbs an hour during sustained activities, to me that's anything over 1.5-2 hours.

So 4 hours riding preceeded by some honey on toast and a banana isn't crazy but you probably wanted something to snack on after the first hour-hour and a half...

I had to look up "16-8 fasting" seems like utter bullshit to me (IAN a dietician though), eat a balanced diet, bigger exercise efforts will require some fuel and you'll probably want to take on some protein after to help with muscle recovery, eating like a mogwai clearly doesn't work because you're feeling shitty.

If weight loss is the goal try a bit of running. Say 5k every other day maybe to begin with, and/or some in the garden circuits? Cycling tends not to make a significant difference to most people's beer gut (certainly not mine) running and jumping about for half an hour at a time can...

Obvious answer – eat more for longer rides?

You either have to start with enough fuel in the tank to get you comfortably to the finish, or you have to top up during the ride.
I don't understand the idea of intentionally running a deficit while riding, whether it's serious training or just a leisurely tour. Cycling without sufficient food and liquid is just unpleasant and rarely ends well...

OK, sounds like you've just not fuelled enough and you've had a major blood sugar deficit. In my usual style, here is a reference for you to read that basically says what you just did!

Plus this one from Torq here. I think the bit that relates to you most is this:

There are some significant benefits to be gained from fuelling during training, because empty glycogen stores take a long time to top back up. Even on a high-carbohydrate diet, research suggests it’s about 48 hours for full replenishment, so if you can spare your glycogen by fuelling properly during exercise it stands to reason that you’ll recover your endogenous stores more quickly afterwards.

If you deplete your glycogen stores you also deplete them from your brain, which needs them to function properly. By not topping up properly during the ride you are basically making your brain "hangry" for the next near 48 hours.

Two slices of toast with spread and honey are approximately 400 kcals dependent on bread, spread and amount of honey. Banana = approx 100kcals

You rode for what 4 hours? I've burnt nearly 2000 kcals on a ride of that length before riding at 23.5kph/14.5mph. Your easy speed of 26kph/16mph for me is my top end solo speed and would burn way more.

If you don't already have one I'd get a heart rate monitor as you get a much more accurate idea of calories burnt, a one hour potter with the child will burn 1/4 of the kcals a 1 hour fast ride will do.

You'll still lose weight, just a bit more slowly. Oh and if you don't already, try the MyFitnessPal app and list everything (and I mean everything) you eat. You'll suddenly see how much you are actually eating which can be an eye opener.

I don’t understand the idea of intentionally running a deficit while riding, whether it’s serious training or just a leisurely tour. Cycling without sufficient food and liquid is just unpleasant and rarely ends well…

I wasn't really intentionally running a deficit, just trying not to over-eat for a deliberately easy ride. I obviously over-compensated in the opposite direction though!

I had to look up “16-8 fasting” seems like utter bullshit to me (IAN a dietician though)

I thought it had been quite well accepted that a bit of intentional fasting was a good thing (obviously not when you get it wrong, like I did). I usually feel fine doing it and like the 6pm curfew, it cuts out 'the snacking hours' between dinner and bed!

However I haven’t got the OP’s manorexia…

I though dieting was cool and manly if done for the purposes of getting faster? 😉

Your easy speed of 26kph/16mph for me is my top end solo speed

If you don’t already have one I’d get a heart rate monitor as you get a much more accurate idea of calories burnt

I have an HRM, just didn't bother using as I thought it would be easy enough to keep it low intensity. Thinking about it though, I spent much more time spinning the granny gear than I would normally, wonder if that meant the ride 'felt' easy but was perhaps a bit higher intensity than I meant it to be. Hence 26km/hr when my usual morning bimbles are 25km/hr or lower.

I have a sack of Torq carbohydrate drink from Girona last year (more worried about dehydration than energy) but I'll maybe start taking a bottle or two on longer rides, in the meantime will go and read some of those Torq articles, seem very relevant!

Your easy speed of 26kph/16mph for me is my top end solo speed

I'm also calling humblebrag.

I aim to get 25km average for a 100km solo ride, though that would include a decent number of hills.

Have been half-heartedly trying to shed some weight

IME if you actually want to loose weight, you have to be a bit "Yoda" about it. Either do or do not.

For the rest of the weekend I’ve been an absolute grouch though!

Because you've had a sugar crash and diets generally can make people moody because fasting increases stress levels.

Prepare the food you're going to eat when you get back from a ride - before you go on the ride, yes it adds a level of faff to getting ready, but you're more likely to make something that isn't just a bunch of carbs/sugar/fat. Or if it is, it's not just cake and crisps.

I’m also calling humblebrag.

OK, sorry, but in my defence, I've also effectively admitted what a state the ride left me in, so it's not much of a brag really. Also I think by the standards of this place, 1000m elevation in 100km isn't considered very hilly.

For the average athlete with limited time to train (say 3-4 sessions a week totalling 4-5 hours of training), it is important to maximise the time you have available by creating the greatest training stress possible. The inclusion of a 1-2 hour TL session could bring about aerobic benefits similar to a much longer well-fuelled session, so is the ideal approach for time-starved endurance athletes. However, limiting it to around 1-2 sessions at most will help ensure the balance between TH and TL training.

Lifted from a Torq article, applying that to my weekly routine, I think I'll stick with the gentle fasted rides in the AM during the week, again, mainly because I like just getting up early and going. Full carbs and pasta party for weekend rides!

I thought it had been quite well accepted that a bit of intentional fasting was a good thing

People have promoted fasting for centuries (probably millenia?) for all sorts of reasons, but I'm not aware of any general consensus that it is a "good thing". Humans burn energy continually to stay alive and keep functioning effectively. Intuitively, artificially restricting your required energy intake (which is what fasting is) doesn't seem like a good idea.

I had to search what TL and HL meant!
TL = ‘training low’ or ‘fasted training'

TH = Training with high carb availability!

Link to articles about why Intermittent fasting is good for weight loss in particular the 16/8 method.

Plus a nice review of literature on other benefits.

TL = ‘training low’ or ‘fasted training’

Yeah, training low is a better description of what I've been trying to do, since I'm not supposed to be doing any high intensity stuff at the moment anyway. I certainly wasn't deliberately trying to do 4hrs fasted, I never go beyond 1.5hr on an empty stomach.

Unless you are used to riding "fasted" then it's quite stressful on the body.

10m/km of climbing might be a lot, depends on where you live I suppose. We've had threads about that before! For me it would be fairly flat but then I live in a hilly area, would be different if I lived in Cambridge or Norfolk.

If you've one of the newer Garmin units that allows you to install apps and widgets (I think 520 and later will be fine) then there's a few reminder/alarm type apps that you can install. Set up a data field with the timer and every X minutes the device will sound an alarm reminding you to eat or drink. Don't know if Wahoo units do this.

You don't have to eat a lot each time, a jelly baby or two or a small handful of nuts, whatever. Obviously you have to work out what works for you food wise.

It can be quite hard to estimate fatigue from longer rides. If you are on Strava then there's a website - intervals.icu - that can take HR and power data from Strava activities and show you training load, times in HR and power zones and a whole lot more. Free and you don't need a premium Strava account either.

Did you mean to link to another article? Kip the one posted doesn't really corroborate with your post

Sounds very much like your doing under eating and your doing reaching out rides- what would have been easy based on your previous ability but when your coming back from.injury you need to start Low and fuel properly.

If you want to lose weight look at it like spending..... You don't control your spending by simply stopping spending for a period (unless your a multinational coorperation) sensible people log their spending and make the necessary cuts while maintaining necessary expenditure.

logging your diet over a typical week and then working out where you need to be eating more based on calorie expenditure.

Otherwise get used to mood swings.

Trail-Rat, this is the one I quoted

https://www.torqfitness.co.uk/news/fasted-training-training-low

I’m also calling humblebrag.

I aim to get 25km average for a 100km solo ride, though that would include a decent number of hills.

Just like to say I wasn't calling humblebrag. I'm a 5'2" 50kg 47 year old female (who clearly loves to mix units!) and I'm just not that quick. I have fitter male friends who regularly average 16-20mph on a ride and they aren't killing it.

It's also quite hard to keep the lumps below 1000m in 100km (again had to convert that to compare to my rides!) around here but it is doable.

Did you mean to link to another article? Kip the one posted doesn’t really corroborate with your post

Ah, sort of, I did a very quick look for info about fuelling riding to back up my first link about his mood, the Torq one came up and it had a bit in about glycogen stores and the time they take to replenish. I chose this quote to support my bit about depleting stores from his brain = hangry. I then linked it to the amount of calories he had eaten pre and during his ride and suggested he may not be eating enough to fuel his ride.

I may not have written as eloquently as I could have done, but that was the basis of it.

But that's is not training to lose weight

That is barebones describing an advanced training technique for when your looking for the competitive edge.

Don't confuse it with losing weight and it's certainly not a lifestyle manageable long term diet.

10m/km of climbing might be a lot, depends on where you live I suppose.

It's standard around here, e.g. that's just what happens unless you go specifically looking for a flat or hilly ride.

Thanks for all links etc. I genuinely find this sort of stuff interesting.

If you’ve one of the newer Garmin units that allows you to install apps and widgets (I think 520 and later will be fine) then there’s a few reminder/alarm type apps that you can install.

I don't think you need to install anything, just have a play with the settings for the activity. (At least that's what I did on my Edge 130 and Fenix 5). FWIW I have a 20min drink alert and a 30min eat alert.

Fasting post surgery and while training is not a good idea. Your body needs protein for recovery (esp post surgery / long rides) and energy for the actual ride. Try:

Breakfast / pre-ride:
Porridge or anything else that will give you value when it comes to slow release energy store. Toast & honey is not great. Make sure you are hydrated.

During ride:
Nothing fancy, just energy: Trailmix, flapjacks, rice cakes, dark chocolate are all fine. Keep hydrated.

Immediately post ride:
Lean protein. e.g. Biltong, Jerky etc. Hydrate / sleep well.

The weight will drop off super easy and your mood will improve.

Enjoy riding!

I was teasing a bit about the humblebragging.

Sorry if I missed this, but are you doing the 100km ride without any fuel?

Fuel for the rides, refuel suitably after - do the dieting within normal mealtime parameters.

@trail_rat What evidence are you basing that last claim on?

Fasting post surgery and while training is not a good idea.

Good advice which seems obvious when you write it like that! Although to be clear, 'post surgery' is stretching it, my surgery was in December! But I guess I do tend to forget that training is still training even if you consider it to be low intensity, am still increasing volume.

Will take it back to the old school for weekend rides:

Muesli for breakfast.

Bananas and soreen during rides

Eggs for lunch.

From a weight loss perspective, post ride hoovering up the contents of the cupboards is a real risk. I've been using Rego for the last couple of years which, being high in protein, makes you feel full and stops (me) craving carbs when I slither in after another sweaty session...

I was teasing a bit about the humblebragging.

Haha, wait a minute, if you're teasing about humblebragging then does that actually mean you're belittling my efforts? 😉

Sorry if I missed this, but are you doing the 100km ride without any fuel?

No, I think there's been an element of chinese whispers from my first post, I only ride fasted mid-week when I go out for an hour before breakfast, and that's mostly just for convenience.

Fuel for the rides, refuel suitably after – do the dieting within normal mealtime parameters.

As a couple of others have alluded to, this is the main take-away I think

[end thread]

I don’t think you need to install anything, just have a play with the settings for the activity. (At least that’s what I did on my Edge 130 and Fenix 5). FWIW I have a 20min drink alert and a 30min eat alert.

Looking at my 520 it seems I can only set up one recurring timer alert and with no text - Garmin help files are no use of course!

When you do read those Torq articles you’ll notice a lot of duff advice in here.  Speed is irrelevant and is dependant on your Z2 power range, which is what you are aiming for.  e.g. Chris Froome would ride a lot faster than you but still likely be in Z2 and of course it’s geographically dependant for the route also.

The average healthy body contains about 60,000 calories of fat at any one time.  Riding in Z2 uses that for fuel, you’ll be fine and the use of that consistently starts to show as weight loss.  Over Z2 and you start tapping into glycogen stories which after sleep or no breakfast will be depleted. This is why it feels a bit harder after a while - your glycogen tank is empty and your body has switched to metabolise fat, but you’ll be ok.

Hydrate properly.

I regularly do 3-4hrs like this on one bottle of energy after 60-90 mins, lost 8kg since last October and wasn’t huge to start with, 81 to 73kg to date.  Don’t smash cake post ride, hit protien to fill you up and support mitochondria growth.  A 4hr ride will provide plenty of deficit.

2 slices of toast with honey for breakfast and a banana during the ride felt like plenty

There's no way that'd be enough for me; last time I tried that I bonked and the wife had to come and collect me.

So... try a more robust breakfast. Even porridge with a banana gives a bit more slow-release energy, and might set you up better

Is this just an update of the fat burning myth? If the op was not recovering from injury I'd suggest riding harder and fueling properly. As it is 100km with next to no food is tough. If it were me I'd have some dilute torq powder in bottles ( 2 scoops per 750ml bottle, sorry dont know how big the scoops are) and a home made energy bar or two in my pockets. Last week when i did a 100km ride I had this, I stopped at a garage after about 75km to get more water and had a bottle of chocolate milkshake too. Roughly 100km with 1000m of ascent at about 25km/h. But it also depends on load before for example saturday I did a hilly ride of about 60km going quite hard, then did an easier 60km with mrs anagallis the next day and was munching the whole way round and still had to have a cafe stop.

2 slices of toast with honey for breakfast and a banana during the ride felt like plenty

Yep, I'd die!!

Sounds like to me that you just fatigued yourself a bit too much. If you leave it a week of 2 before doing something similar (but fueled properly) I think your mood should a touch better after.

I can be quite bad for not eating enough when doing rides over my usual 30 miles distance, where I don't tend to eat or drink any sports drinks.
Over 30 miles I take 2 bottles, one with electrolytes and one with sports drink and sip between the 2 bottle over the ride. I also pack an emergency banana or cereal bar.
Rides approaching 100 miles or more I try to eat regularly to fend off the dreaded bonk.

I'm both impressed by your average speed and riding early in the morning.

FWIW I did 100km yesterday, about twice as much climbing though. And I had bircher muesli for breakfast (so oats+yoghourt+red fruit), then had a gel just before the main climb (about 1:30 in to the ride), a muesli bar at the top, and then we stopped at a café after coming back down again and I had some toast with tomato+olive oil (a traditional Spanish breakfast) and a black coffee. I'm not a huge fan of sports drinks so stuck to water and had to refill the bottle a couple of times.

And I was a cheerful happy person all afternoon 🙂

When you do read those Torq articles you’ll notice a lot of duff advice in here

When seeking information on training and nutrition, it is also important to remember that a sports nutrition company is not a disinterested source.

Just need to learn how to combine the two…

This is the trick. I tend to go too fast when riding which depletes glycogen and makes me feel crap. Despite having trained with power for years previously (then selling my PM) I recently got an HRM and realised my intensity had crept up on longer rides to the point where it was too much to achieve the goal. Long slow ride with HR yesterday and it was lovely, and easy.

IME if you actually want to loose weight, you have to be a bit “Yoda” about it. Either do or do not.

Not really. There are many ways to do it and all you can achieve faster or slower results depending on how much you do it.

In my experience from talking to people and doing it, different things work for different people. Some people can ride hard and eat to lose weight, for others this doesn't seem to work. I struggle to lose weight unless I am doing long slow distance AND sticking to a calorie restricted and very low GI diet (which end up being the same thing). In 2018 I decided to stuff it, I ate well (for riding) and trained high intensity. I got much faster and felt great, but I lost no weight. SaxonRider from here seems to be able to simply cut out junk and smash out climbs and he loses weight easily - doesn't work for me. Homeostasis is governed by all sorts of pathways and hormones and they're different in all of us.

Regarding the OP that sounds like you are not eating enough on those rides. It is NOT the case that the less you eat and the more you ride the more weight you will lose. Because if you don't eat enough it becomes just too hard and unpleasant to do the riding and live a happy productive life. If you are riding at that speed you're doing 6-700 calories per hour. If you are keeping the intensity down you might be using 60% fat. Which would be 40% of calories from carbs or let's say about 250, which is about 65g per hour. Maltodextrin (sports energy drink powder) is nearly 100% carbohydrate so that's roughly two of the 'scoops' you get with the bag of powder which are typically 30g each - per hour. So on your 4hr ride that's eight scoops' worth. Or about a bag of wine gums plus a bit.

If you eat less than that (or rider harder than a level consuming 60/40 fat/carb ratio) or start with depleted glycogen stores then you will finish the ride with depleted glycogen stores. This is what makes you hungry. And I've found that having significantly depleted glycogen stores not only makes me hungry it makes me crave carby food in the house, which is sugary treats. And the effect lasts a long time so over-eating carbs is almost inevitable. And if I don't, well I feel shit. So I like to take the carb powder whilst riding, and a couple of scoops of recovery drink (carbs + protein) afterwards. And then eat very few few carbs whilst not riding.

a sports nutrition company is not a disinterested source.

Whilst this is true this kind of science is not at all controversial or wacky or weird. It's very well published and known by every coach - not just vendors of sports drinks. Torq usually cite the papers and science in their articles. Where the marketing bollocks comes in is persuading you that their particular brand of drink is better than anyone else's.

Don't buy the expensive drink, just use plain maltodextrin and flavour it with squash. It works out cheaper than wine gums or cake or whatever else you'd eat; it's easier to eat, and doesn't make you want more of it like cake does. So it's easier to get the right amount of carbs.

I should have qualified my first post on the basis that actually different methods and measures work differently sometimes for different people.  Eg this

If you eat less than that (or rider harder than a level consuming 60/40 fat/carb ratio) or start with depleted glycogen stores then you will finish the ride with depleted glycogen stores. This is what makes you hungry. And I’ve found that having significantly depleted glycogen stores not only makes me hungry it makes me crave carby food in the house, which is sugary treats. And the effect lasts a long time so over-eating carbs is almost inevitable. And if I don’t, well I feel shit. So I like to take the carb powder whilst riding, and a couple of scoops of recovery drink (carbs + protein) afterwards. And then eat very few few carbs whilst not riding.

Didn’t work for me last year.  I ate well during long rides doing hardly any Z2 always over, and still achieve a - smaller - calorific deficit not at all needing to reach for crisps or cakes once I’d returned home.

That’s how the 8kg that I lost this year arrived i the first place.  We’ve discovered carbs have a significant effect on my weight gain.

There's a big thread about carb intake on the Trainerroad forums. Basically you can absorb up to 90g/hr of carbs. You can also make your own: requisite amount of table sugar (which is 50% glucose and 50% sucrose), a pinch of table salt and a small amount of lemon juice or something similar for taste. Probably not as ideal as commercial offerings but not too bad, doesn't taste as sweet as you might think (the most I've put in a 750ml bottle is five heaped tablespoons) which makes you wonder just how much sugar is in the typical soft drink.

For me it's fine for turbo sessions which are usually short and intense but for longer rides I'd just be bilious plus I'd need to spend half an hour brushing my teeth because of all the sugar!

Not really. There are many ways to do it and all you can achieve faster or slower results depending on how much you do it.

Is this to be another weight loss thread where you profess to know all the science and yet lack the ability to apply it to yourself?

Whilst this is true this kind of science is not at all controversial or wacky or weird. It’s very well published and known by every coach – not just vendors of sports drinks.

I'd argue that there's a bit of overthinking the science here. Fundamentally, the OP didn't have enough fuel for his ride (and continued to feel the after effects after he finished).