[Closed] Yeah, but this one goes up to...

Has’t Rotor had 13 a cog cassette for ages?

I still can't get my head around dinner-plate size rear cassettes - they look all kinds of wrong to me. I come from a time when you boasted how small a rear cassette you could run.

Anything bigger than 11-28 on MTBs was for girls! 🙂

Has’t Rotor had 13 a cog cassette for ages?

With hydraulic shifting too. A mate of mine has it on his cross bike.

I think it makes sense for road but less so gravel and definitely not MTB.
I'd rather go back to 10spd and accept bigger ratio steps in order to make them less picky on setup & maintenance. The 9-42ish range is a good one though to minimise the size & weight of the cassette whilst offering a big range.

Saw a mate out on a 26" hardtail (Specialized M4, I think) - standard chainset with a 46 or 48 big ring and an almost straight rear cassette from his road racing days - he said he needed the gears as he refused to move to larger wheels and couldn't keep up otherwise.

Certainly looked all wrong compared to today's set-up but also looked 'right' - vary very fast looking bike and it looked fantastic.

One thing that stands out when looking at the drivetrain is the large cable loop to the rear. This is no doubt to ensure smoother shifts, but compared to Shimano GRX, with its neat cable it does stand out. If the longer cable means better long term reliability then it might be something that riders are willing to live with.

That rear mech cable!

I come from a time when you boasted how small a rear cassette you could run.

See also narrower bars and longer stems!

That rear mech cable!

Good job the frame has internal routing...

Good job the frame has internal routing…

#AeroGravel

I come from a time when you boasted how small a rear cassette you could run.

Only if you were a bit of a tool.

The whole cogs arms race is bollocks, just some silly go-slow race to maximise profits at the expense of the consumer.

They should just do it like house sales. All companies need to submit a BAFO and then stick to it...
Campag can bid 13. SRAM can bid 18 or whatever they think they'll eventually reach. Shimano can come up with another stupid Boost wheel size of 30cm or whatever it is that will fit 63 cogs between the dropouts. Suntour might go for a round 20

Then everyone can decide which they fancy, go out and buy it now rather than in X years time just a few months after they have bought the latest 62 cog setup or whatever the companies were touting at the time.

All bollocks of course, but it would be nice to see companies doing it in increments of 2 or so, just to at least admit where they're going.

(And yes, by posting this I have ruined it for everyone else)

Only if you were a bit of a tool.

You didn't take part in the arse-up, head-down race scene then!? 🙂

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the-muffin-man
I still can’t get my head around dinner-plate size rear cassettes – they look all kinds of wrong to me. I come from a time when you boasted how small a rear cassette you could run.

Anything bigger than 11-28 on MTBs was for girls!

When I was a lad, you'd only switch into your 48 tooth granny ring from your 52 if your mates weren't watching, and the rear was 13 to 22 teeth. (26 was as big as they went)

Probably why singlespeed seemed like a better idea to me. 🙂

And any skis less than 205cm were completely infra dig.

The whole cogs arms race is bollocks, just some silly go-slow race to maximise profits at the expense of the consumer.

Nah, not really. If you can get rid of a front mech you're removing a whole component with associated expense, weight and risk of failure or faffing. And off-road you have other benefits - you collect less mud and you free up the left side of your handlebar. So 1x is a good aim. And I think you need 12 speeds off-road to not be compromising on range; and possibly 13 on road. If it works - why not? Why make chains and sprockets thicker than they need to be?

Nah, not really. If you can get rid of a front mech you’re removing a whole....

Sorry, you're misunderstanding my point. What I'm objecting to is the gradual increase on the rear end. Every two years the companies come out and say " WOW, look at this, we've managed to come up with a gear system with X rear cogs". This is what everyone needs. It's the ultimate"

Then two years later
" WOW, look at this, we've managed to come up with a gear system with X+1 rear cogs". This is what everyone needs. It's the ultimate"

Why can't they just fast forward a few iterations and give us 20 or whatever their end goal is now..

Why can’t they just fast forward a few iterations and give us 20 or whatever their end goal is now..

For similar reasons to why Sony couldn't release a Playstation 5 in 1994

Many years ago, think when 11speed came out, a mate of mine who worked in the bike industry told me that one of the manufacturers had already been looking into the maximum amount of gears on a cassette that would be possible, without major changes to the rear axle/free hub length, they worked out 14 speed cassettes would be possible. I didn't think it would be possible at the time. But its not far off from happening now.

Why can’t they just fast forward a few iterations and give us 20 or whatever their end goal is now..

Cos of incremental development. They are making the side plates thinner each time, so they need to make a small change and see how it plays out with trillions of miles on it before making another change.

There might be an element of wanting to iteratively sell more stuff, but people tend only to upgrade when stuff wears out so I feel that the rate of purchase of new kit isn't as high as all that. And the fact they now need to keep making cassettes, chains and kit for 7 through 11 speed must increase costs somewhat.

Many years ago, think when 11speed came out, a mate of mine who worked in the bike industry told me that one of the manufacturers had already been looking into the maximum amount of gears on a cassette that would be possible, without major changes to the rear axle/free hub length, they worked out 14 speed cassettes would be possible. I didn’t think it would be possible at the time. But its not far off from happening now.

Shimano have had a patent on 14speed for decades.

Surely they can't patent a random number of sprockets on an otherwise-identical cassette? There has to be some sort of innovation to make 14 sprockets fit otherwise it's not patent-worthy? IANAPL

Why can’t they just fast forward a few iterations and give us 20 or whatever their end goal is now..

#GrimDonut

Why can’t they just fast forward a few iterations and give us 20 or whatever their end goal is now..

You can.

I like what they've done with the ratios, the top half is very close with single tooth spacing, then the bottom half is wider on the low ratios. Should mean when on the road and in the top 6 gears you get the closer ratios but on gravel/climbs etc you still get the benefit of low widely spaced rations.

One issue with 1x on gravel bikes is the wide spacing when you're doing road stuff.

It's not even that wide though - the big two are 6 teeth apart; on my 11sp MTB it's 9 teeth. I like it.

I still can’t get my head around dinner-plate size rear cassettes

TBF the biggest sprocket they're offering isn't any bigger than what the competition offers, what is of more interest is the availability of a 9t sprocket option.

I think they've understood the rules of the game; moar range, moar sprockets, moar 1x-ness.
But how it will do against groups like GRX is hard to say, I'm not so sure customers are as impressed by more clicks any more, and most will value robustness and reliability over and above marketing numbers...

will value robustness and reliability over and above marketing numbers…

LMFAO

if only.

Surely they can’t patent a random number of sprockets on an otherwise-identical cassette?

Was/is a whole (cassette and deraileur based) system.

Was/is a whole (cassette and deraileur based) system.

So another manufacturer who uses a different 'system' will not be copying?

I Dont know the exact details, but this shows it.

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/shimano-14-speed-has-been-hiding-in-plain-sight-since-99/

13's an unlucky number and I crash enough already.

However 7 is lucky and if you multiply that by 2 (an even number, so lucky) you get 14 so I might go for that one day.

I might be reading too much into gear choice and crashing mind you.

 I come from a time when you boasted how small a rear cassette you could run.

But you had front mechs then too innit.

the 1x evangelists do amuse me. its not a win / win - there are disadvantages.
Longer mechs hang nearer the ground thus are more prone to rock strikes and being longer have greater leverage if it so either need to be stronger or are effectively easier to break
tiny sprockets wear quicker so your 9 or 10 tooth will wear quicker than an 11 or 12 tooth
Rear cassettes are heavier thus increasing unsprung weight ( on full sus) and decreasing mass centralisation ( not that I could tell)
Poor chainlines are more common

Longer mechs? I have standard medium cages on all my bikes. Largest cassette is 42 (or 46, I forget) Never caught a mech on anything, and if I recall, 2x systems often required the longer mechs to take up the slack in the granny.

Oh hang on a minute...I got sucked in again then almost. 1x evangelists indeed! 🤣 Don't use or like the idea of 1x?

Anything bigger than 11-28 on MTBs was for girls!

I started MTBing with a 28t granny chainring and a 28t largest sprocket. My new MTB has a 11-28 ten speed cassette with a 36t chainring - it's my first MTB with gears in years so seems plenty low enough.

My SS was a 50" gear and my new bike gives me 36"-90". If I get really stuck, the 1x crank is actually a 2x with no mech, so I can manually shift to the smaller chainring if needed.

Didn't even know what ratio cassettes I was on BITD.

No need when I had three rings up front.

the 1x evangelists do amuse me.

And the Luddites clinging to their corncob cassettes from yesteryear amuse us too 😉
It's basically a comedy fest all round...

Personally I don't think it's as simple as wholeheartedly loving every new gearing do-hickey that gets released.

I'm still not sold on 12 sprockets TBH, 10 or 11 seems adequate for 95% of people, so 13 is possibly asking for trouble IMO. The more clicks you add and the closer the sprockets, the more sensitive (mechanical) derailleurs seem to become to minor misalignments, cable tension and drag so I'm inclined to say if you do want to go turning anything up above 11 (in combination with 1x, 2x or 3x) you're probably better off with leccy shifting (and get to pay the associated costs) discuss?

Anyway having read up a bit more about it This Campag gravel group it has some interesting features but also some potential drawbacks/flaws for it's intended market.
Perhaps most annoying is that despite the apparent benefits of that 9t sprocket and having 13 gears they've not actually left themselves much room to go for smaller chainrings to fit on that proprietary Crank BCD, meaning they've not really understood the wider Gravel/Adventure road bike market (IMO). Some users might want to go a smidge lower in range than that 38t minimum allows (Say heavily laden tourers/bikepackers) and it sort of wastes the benefits of the 9t sprocket if you don't give users the option to offset the range more (IMO).

Considering this is their first foray back into off-road gears in almost 3 decades it's perhaps a little underwhelming really once you get past the headline of that (rather pricey) cassette.

One thing I do note though is the 9-36t Cassette option, not much cop for a gravel pitched group these days, but couple it with a 40t chainring and you could almost replicate the range of a conventional compact double (50/34) and an 11-30t-ish cassette without having gone full "dinner plate" and most importantly in more appropriate/finer increments than 1x11 would manage over the same sort of range... I think campag are probably more interested in winning the first round of the 1x road bike group battle, where the problem up to now has always been avoiding big steps rather than achieving a useful range...

That could actually be Campag's true "Killer App" for 13 speed as Gravel and MTB drivetrains are less affected by "steppy" cassettes and so 11/12 sprockets are pretty much fine off-road for now, plus SRAM/Shimano have pretty much sewn those markets up already...

But yeah, Death to the front Derailleur!!!

Ive just looked at the bikerumour articles.
I don’t understand why they didn’t design out the huge cable loop either, copyright / patents maybe.