[Closed] XC racing. How technical?

Pretty techie up here- more chutes and natural than jumps, air etc.

Ruts, rock gardens, drops and hellish root sections? And some big kickers and optional gaps?

i think xc is lacking a technical course, make it RADXC, nichetastic 😛

Kickers and gaps no.

Gotta be rideable on a short travel bike by non dh riders.

There are chicken runs on everything I'd plan on using...

its all mtb!

I built a perfectly rideable section in my local course and there was loads of people complaining that it was too difficult...

I say go for it!!! Its supposed to be technical otherwise we would all be riding on the road

it depends whose rules you are operating under:

our main courses are reasonably technical, we operate under BC rules therefore everything has to be "rideable"

anything that is risky (but rideable)needs appropriate signage

other than that it seems to be pretty open.

this includes drops, table tops, doubles, rock gardens (smallish), chutes (easy), big berms

however:
we avoid anything designated "black"

we don't build anything (liability issues)

we are mindful that the majority of riders need to get over it/ round it otherwise the flow of the race is spoiled by walkers

we ensure that we have appropriate first aid cover that can get a rider off any part of the course

in race 1 series 1, 3 racers were hospitalised, first aid seems to get busy when the less mtb orientated fast riders turns up

Ruts, rock gardens, drops and hellish root sections? And some big kickers and optional gaps?

try it on a 80mm HT with flat bars and a seat up your arse, plus zero visability 'cos you are following someone as fast as is possible

but doesn't mean that its rideable for all

...you thinking about Chipshop then Jambo? I was there the other day thinking what a giggle [i]some[/i] of it would be on an xc bike! The south west xc series is already going to Abbeyford so i suppose that could be an interesting test of fun lines/gaps/chicken runs versus twitchty xc riders.

The other thing to think about if you put a race on rather than razzing round on a shorter travel bike would be 'rider density' (ie how many racers per km of lap) and overtaking opportunities: an xc course on trails that are technical and fun will nevertheless become boring if you get held up behind slower riders for too long in the twisty bits and can only overtake on the fire roads/climbs. I reckon if you don't go for too many entrants, chipsop could have a pretty funny course in it though.

I have wondered about having technical sections and chicken runs but make the chicken runs take 20 seconds or so - so that skilled riders get an advantage. You would need to marshall each section to stop people running down the technical bits - and have some penalty if they did. This would give advantage to the skilled riders but allow less skilled riders to compete still.

Julian - yep. I ride it quite a bit on my five. It's ace and only takes 10 mins to spin back up the fireroad and do it again. You can really pack the runs in. Would turn some of the flatter sections into climbs and use plenty of fireroad to spread people out. Just an idea at the moment but could be a laugh.

This XC race sounds great, but TJ is right try and make the chcken runs so there is a time penalty for taking them, 20 secs if feirce though, but a bit longer would be nice.

Make it as technical as you like, as long as you do a proper risk assessment and mark stuff accordingly. The BC race organisers guidelines very useful, and I am happy to pass you copies of RAs we have done for tehcy XC courses. Use the terrain you have, and make sure you let people know it's techy. It's all about people being aware of the potential hazard, either because it's marked or extremely obvious. If they can't ride it they will get off, so leave a good clamber line. No shame in getting off and walking.

Common sense prevails, don't put a narrow steep windy descent in the first 200 metres or there will be trouble. As Brownbacks says, don't put silly big drops or road jumps in.

IME the worst crashes I have seen have NOT been on technical descents but on fast bermy jumpy smooth sections where folk get a rush to the head and try to fly.

The worst incidents at races I have organised have been to DHers riding XC races on their hardtails and forgetting to slow down !

I fight the good fight for proper technical courses, sure you can put a course through a field with a few corners on it and you get 5000 entries - but thats not really mountainbiking is it ? It's a road race in a park.

I say go for it...

Sorry TJ, but laughing at "marshall each section to stop people running down them" I'm afraid that is totally unrealistic and a bit dangerous. Each rider needs to make their own well informed choice when it comes to risk. If they decide it's safer to get off thats fine.

Well meant I know, but I would never ask a marshall to do that, or take that choice away from a rider.

Marshalls are for SAFETY.

Not sure about that myself.
Certainly would be a niché race, but I'm not sure how that would work with guys racing bumper to bumper. Even on the technical'ish bits in classic xc you can pass another rider by going agricultural so I think too many lines would cause bottlenecks. See in general te sort of trail your talking about would be riden in file and not by forty guys all trying to get in front.
So yes you'll have your fans, but myself I prefer something you can pedal your lungs out on with overtaking opportunities at all times.
Not saying you will, but you might loose the young riders, XC purists and the elderly like me.
Edit; though I suppose that's what boundaries are for 🙂

The only problem I see with using nice techy sections, is that if the entry to it is blind, there doesnt seem to be a system in place other than some frantic arm waving to slow riders down if there is someone down in the section already.. In motorsport it would be a yellow flag, its not just to say no overtaking its real meaning is proceed with caution, the no overtaking rule is an obvious add on to proceed with caution..

The thing that really seperates the men form the boys in my opinion is real techy climbs, though its possible to claw a little time on nice singletrack and stuff, its marginal. Maybe you want to run the race up some of the chutes!!

Oh yes, and I forgot to add, make sure the course is marked out the day before, even for a small local race, so folk can practice.

The terrain dictates the technicalness anyway, you don't get techy descents without a big old hoary climb first which separates the riders quite nicely thanks. You only get big packs in the flatlands (and at World Cups where you have the 180 fastest guys in the world) where there is not so much to separate riders and they can draft off each other, and it doesn't really matter unless you put a tiny log-jump in somewhere.

Tinsy you can't have a no overtaking rule in an XC race surely, even on isolated sections.
IME when a rider can't ride past because a rider in front is tired or struggling with the terrain they often shoulder the bike and run past.

was a downhiller in a previous life - i say not technical enough

remember busa at dunkeld anyone ? that set a few folk greeting cause they would boost up the fire road to be over taken by the guy who were quickish on the climbs but excelled at downhilling - we were sending them down parts of the new and old downhill tracks there.

I Remember bunnyhopping(anyone risk assessed that risk ? ) a few of the guys at the front of the sport field who had fallen on the downhills there (my first xc race) on a singlespeed 29er

trail_rat, busas at inners was wicked. That is how a xc race should look like

What is XC racing supposed to test?

the Brighton Big Dog course was pretty 'technical' but never went anywhere near an official DH run.

I think you have to consider tired people riding it in the pissing rain on muddy tyres.

The shots I've seen of the Wordl Cup XC course 'up north' make it seem fairly technical (albeit that mbuk tilted allthe photos to make it look steeper).

I thought the BUSAs at Dunkeld were awful! The DH course was fine, it was the sh1t climb and the rest of the course that was terrible! I really hate the idea that 'long boring climb/big down/repeat' is acceptable for an XC race, sadly it seems to be the case all too often in Scotland. But that's an altogether different argument!

Hels I don't know why you think marshalling sections is amusing!? I would say it's essential, and think TJs right, you need to try (obviously it's not always going to be possible) to make people ride the techy stuff and walk the chicken run, not vice versa!

I say go for it, as long as sections are appropriately signed and it's realistic that people will be able to ride it at race pace without it totally screwing up the race then go nuts!

having technical sections and chicken runs but make the chicken runs take 20 seconds or so

- so that skilled riders get an advantage. You would need to marshall each section to stop people running down the technical bits - and have some penalty if they did.

marshals are for safety, commissaires for penalties, walking/ running is allowed in BC rules therefore penalties can't be applied

Marshalls are for SAFETY.

Make it as technical as you like, as long as you do a proper risk assessment and mark stuff accordingly. The BC race organisers guidelines very useful,

The only problem I see with using nice techy sections, is that if the entry to it is blind, there doesnt seem to be a system in place other than some frantic arm waving to slow riders down if there is someone down in the section already.. In motorsport it would be a yellow flag, its not just to say no overtaking its real meaning is proceed with caution, the no overtaking rule is an obvious add on to proceed with caution

under BC rules Marshalls all get a yellow flag which means proceed with caution to help manage the dificult sections where there may be fallers or a stopped rider would cause a problem, the "no-overtaking rule" is not required as the risks are different. This is also why the marshal is placed "up course" of the technical section to advise other riders rather than at the bottom to pick them up.

oldgit, I get your point, but I only mean no overtaking if there is already a rider down in the section, and I am assuming a really fast and technical or hazarous bit, not just toppled over in a bit of mud, hence it would be time to bring out the yellow at the entrance to that section, not the full course. Its there as a warning to proceed with caution and not just banzai into it and the stricken rider.

I am all for making XC tough and its nice for a good technical rider to be able to claw a little time back on the wippets. However in my limited experience most fast guys are good technically too.

under BC rules Marshalls all get a yellow flag which means proceed with caution to help manage the dificult sections where there may be fallers or a stopped rider would cause a problem, the "no-overtaking rule" is not required as the risks are different. This is also why the marshal is placed "up course" of the technical section to advise other riders rather than at the bottom to pick them up.

So that in place already?

I have only competed a lowly level, though apparently to BC rules(enough to stop me getting a Vet victory and giving me a 3rd in another overall cat I wasn't contesting in), I didnt see any marshals with flags.

i wasnt suggesting that it was great nick , just saying that the technical downhill caught out alot of the fast roadie boys.

now all we need are a series of technical climbs and it would be reasonable 😉

drumlanrig is a good indication of an XC race course imho !

Agreed, Drumlanrig is good!

I remember the jump at the bottom of the downhill course at Dunkeld where someone had written 'huck it', everyone was avoiding it, I'm a total pansy on a bike, but even I rode it! It was about a foot drop, if that! That was a laugh!

aye that was where the 2 guys crashed into each other and i had t ojump over their bikes 😀 they were gutted

Transvésubienne anyone 😉

Transmaurienne FTW! I did it in 2003, not that technical at all though. (and the French were CRAP on it).

I really hate the idea that 'long boring climb/big down/repeat' is acceptable for an XC race, sadly it seems to be the case all too often in Scotland.

Not in my experience of SXCs.

NJee20 - of course I don't think marshalling sections is amusing you are twisting my words mate.

Just amused at the naivety of the idea of asking a marshall to tell a rider what decision to make at a section. It just isn't practical. "You, you look a bit mincy, ride down this easy bit" "You, the fat lad on a sub five, on you go down the rock steps" "ladies, off the bike please"

We always have plenty of marshalls on a course, especially at technical sections. They can shout encouragement but I don't expect them to give riders orders.

I don't know, I have ridden some races where I think the organisers think marshalls are there to point the way and stop folk cheating. They are there to protect the riders and summon help if needed.

al you should really register at the transvésubienne...

fyrish , laggan , fort william , glentress - thats 4 from 6 in 2008 were pretty much what nick says .... didnt bother me in slightest tbh .... was better than riding at thetford

Warn them in the briefing.
Warn them with signs prior to the section.
Warn them with signs at the start of the section.
Put a marshal there.
Risk assess it.

...and if you are still worried talk it through with BC if they are sending a race official or are providing your insurance.

We sent people down this without incident!

[IMG] [/IMG]

However, one guy fell off on a flat section of cobbles and broke his arm, another injured himself whilst still on the campsite and a third fell over whilst walking through the "chicken run".

Frysish - that was a great course, hope SXC bring it back one day, now that I am retired to the Fun cat and can take my time up the climbs !

I remember back in the day...ok not that long ago... the last cheddar challenge I think, there was a downhill section that was pretty rooty and rutted (about 300m of 1ft deep ruts with 8" roots in it. It was amazing fun, but all the hardcore XC guys really really struggled on it. Fortunately for me it was the only bit I could do faster than them, so while having been lapped by elite guys on the way up, I re-took them on the way down with a cheer, only to be re-lapped again later 🙂 !

Laggan techy...? You're kidding right. Rocky and bumpy YES techy not really not.

I have ridden some races where I think the organisers think marshalls are there to point the way and stop folk cheating. They are there to protect the riders and summon help if needed.

as we run two courses at the same time we use marshals to ensure the right rider goes the right way at splits, the aim is to stop the less skilled rider entering the technical sections on the main course

I didnt see any marshals with flags.

These threads really do bring out the willy wavers don't they. Juan...

Most people get injured at races like Thetford and Sherwood, where the speeds are very high and the riders are very close. Hitting a tree at 5mph picking your way round a rock strewn switchback is usually better than hitting on at 25mph flat out through a ferny piece of singletrack!

I don't mind having technical descents where everyone can have a crack, but I think drops are a bit daft, as they just polarise people, you either do them, or you don't, and it's rarely skill related, more balls! If you want to do racing that tests the size of your testicles, go do DH or 4X!

It doesnt take much Brownbacks, I will watch out for some kind of flags and mention of it in the riders breifing this year.

Harry the spider, that muddy drop is just the sort of section that needed a marshal with a yellow up the top to let oncoming riders that old numpty boy was struggling and not to just launch off the top. 🙂

If you launched off hard enough you'd probably just clear him! I imagine it's what at least half the folk on here would do 😉

Yes true sometimes Marshalls are needed for directional, but their primary role is safety. I rode a race once, not naming names, but the course was about 7 K and they had TWO MARSHALLS. I know cos I counted, sad person that I am I notice these things. They were obligingly pointing the way to riders tho.

But anyways yes I digress. Laggan technical ? Only problem on that XC course is staying awake. I advise taking a book for the fireroads.

I get worried when people mention the word technical. I'm as you've already guessed old school xc, and don't really know what technical is. My assumption is that technical covers areas were specific skills or training would be required or the need to negotiate man made sections. The picture back there to me isn't technical merely a muddy slope, that's why the word intimidates me a bit.

yup agreed- there are more technical roads around here hels - but its still a single up followed by a single down.

On an unrelated note, but relevant to the OP. Go ride some XC races. By all means make a techy one, but trying to organise a race of a type you've never done yourself is asking for trouble/poor race. Common mistakes would appear to include getting the length of laps wrong (either too long, or not realising how fast the fast folk can be).

Or if you have raced XC, you don't mention it - but would then surely have an idea how techy it can be.

I get worried when people mention the word technical.

I thnk technical covers anything that requires thought and skills to ride, plenty of sections or trails don't require that at all. Natural trails need it fairly often, places like llandegla rarely do. I think I'd define it as the stuff that experienced riders pass over and make look fairly easy, but the newcomers struggle on. I'm not sure manmade stuff really fits under that heading, apart from woodwork maybe.

The picture back there to me isn't technical merely a muddy slope, that's why the word intimidates me a bit.

And that's the trouble, it's very subjective!

Take the BMBS last year, for anyone that rode it, there were triple down arrows at Worry Gill and Medusas Drops at Dalby, the former was ****ing steep, totally ridable, but was causing a number of people (I'm happy to admit I was one of them!) a reasonable amount of grief/self doubt. Then at Crow Hill there was another triple down arrow, you'd think within the series at least there'd be a modicum of standardisation, but that was for a loamy slope at which I didn't see anyone hesitate!

Now someone who came to Crow, and thought that was a 'triple down' section may be in for a nasty surprise when they launch themselves off some of the other more technical sections in other courses!

Not being willy waver njee, but the black at laggan isn't tech at all. ou don't have to think about your trajectory. For each rocky bit, there is a clear kick off and a clear exit. You don't have to think about where you're going to put your wheel. Just point, and shout. The devil staircase downhill is more techy in the sense that you have to think about where you go a bit more.

Fair enough, I've not been so I'm not really qualified to comment, but I've heard a lot of people (including on here) say that it's about the most technical trail centre in the country. So to say it's not technical seems questionable to me!

Loads of people claim the kelpies "obstacle" at carron valley is technical and difficult and worthy of note, but I didn't even realise I'd ridden over it and was still hunting for it by the time I reached the bottom (not willy waving, was genuinely amused). Everyones technical will be different.

what do you ride juan .... i was speaking about the XC race course there...

the black is tech as **** on an 80mm 26inch wheeled carbon race bike ...

its reasonable on a 5inch trail bike

its as much fun as a week in quarantine on a downhill bike

If you look in the picture there is a marshal at the top (although we don’t give them flags and BC have never pulled us up for that). We had another one at the bottom behind the position from which the photo was taken.
As luck would have it I have a copy of the British Cycling Mountain Bike Event Organiser’s Handbook on my desk (next to the hand cream, but that is a different thread).

[IMG] [/IMG]

trail rat I rode it twice, once on the hj and once on the hoss

Harry the spider, I can see the marshal, I can see he has no flag, I am not knocking you for not having a flag as I have never seen one at an XC event either, but it wouldnt hurt to adopt the use of them, even if BC dont enforce it..

Its odd the handbook makes no mention of the yellow flag and yet the picture shows one.

It just saves the marshal from having to say rider down to each and every rider entering the section.

I take my hat off to anyone organizing an event, there is certainly a lot to it. 🙂

I raced MX for years and before a radio would have been commonplace for marshalls, it was all done on a flag system, yellow for proceed with caution, a white for medical assitance and a red for stop the race.
(yellow with black cross last lap, and obviously the chequer but not really important for MTB I know)

In this case the approach was slow with good visibility. I don't see a difference between a shouted warning and a waved flag.

From a personal perspective I would rather have the marshal shout "Steady on! Man down! Take the chicken run or wait for him to get up!" (which is what they were doing) rather than be subjected to some non-specific flag waving.

The important thing is that the BC officials were happy with the course, the marking, the hazard warning, the marshal location, the briefing, the first aid cover, the risk assessment and so on. I think that they apply a bit of common sense when it comes to interpretation of the hand book.

dunkeld busa was class spectating mind.

managed to convince about 1 in every 20 riders to launch the rock drop off towards the end of the DH course in the xc race. including will evans (i think) running at it on a chainless giant trance.

great fun.

Aye that was the tiny drop that no one would do, very strange! I think it was the DHers baying for blood that put people off!

think it was about 3ft or so. had a little rock in the landing too that you had to clear. like half way up the last section before you drop into the finish fire road.

very amusing.

We try and make the course appear harder than it is whilst making it safer than it looks if you know what I mean 😈

Maybe that is one of the reasons why we don't see casualties on the technical sections... everybody is concentrating and even if you do cock it up it isn't as bad as you first thought.

I don't remember it being that big, the one right at the bottom, someone had sprayed a 'runway' up to it and written 'huck it' in massive letters, with the massive crowd of cheering DHers! It can't have been 3 foot if I rode it!

Edit: it's like I said earlier, most injuries tend to happen at speed, most people riding scary looking stuff are going slowly, so less likely to get badly hurt.

Actually you can add Photographers to the list of Hazard Warnings for Riders. I am always more alert when I see one of those vultures, although one day I might get annoyed enough to accidently crash into one, I think it's a liberty to take pics of complete strangers in public (and even more to publish them) but I appear to be old-fashioned on that one.

Baying crowds definitely make me slot into Mince Mode !!

nah it will have been further up. it was a bone fide drop off a rock thing, pretty much onto flat too.

one of the dunkeld locals will know it. i had a photo of it once, god knows where tho.

Aaah, that I do remember! Think there were more people around the one at the bottom, which everyone was still avoiding!

oh aye i think it was just me and about 1 other optimistically screaming DO THE DROOOOOOPPPP to anyone that went past.

10.0 GENERAL CROSS COUNTRY
REGULATIONS
10.5.2 Marshals
10.5.2.1 A flag system must be applied as follows:
[b]10.5.2.1.1 All marshals working in potentially
hazardous sections must carry a yellow
flag which will be used during training and
racing sessions.
10.5.2.1.2 If this flag is held out stretched, riders
must slow down since an accident ahead is
being indicated.[/b]
10.5.2.2 All marshals must ideally have line of sight
with each other and carry whistles which
will be blown with a short sharp blast as
the next rider approaches.

just shows that you need to read more than the handbook

anyway Hit the North Opertes under cyclocross rules as parts of the course are unrideable?

10.1 Course Design Parameters
10.1.1 The course must be 100% rideable
regardless of the terrain and weather
conditions. Brief and unavoidable
dismounts may be approved by the
Technical Delegate and/or the Race
Commissaire.

or did you get approval?

Must admit I was pleasantly suprised and impressed with the last Gorrick, It was alot more technical than i was expecting.

Actually I suppose it depends on your definition - does tech = dangerous or does tech = difficult to get up/down at speed not dabbing etc

my definition of tech is the second. For instance I don't really think of the black run at whites level as technical....

(this is my first year racing tho)

oh aye i think it was just me and about 1 other optimistically screaming DO THE DROOOOOOPPPP to anyone that went past.

My brother did that race and felt compelled to do the drop each lap - until his bull-in-a-chinashop approach to all things like that finally caught up with him and he destroyed his rear wheel...

does tech = dangerous or does tech = difficult to get up/down at speed not dabbing

That's my point, drops/jumps aren't really in the spirit of things IMO, people do them because they have the balls (and probably the skill), or they don't because the lack the balls (and possibly the skill). Technical descents offer much more opportunity for skilled riders to open gaps over those less skilled.

Well i agree with njee, there is not much technical on a drop. However a steep twisty and rocky trail now that's techy 😀

Agreed, and if you want to make a course technical that's the sort of stuff that should be included.

Basically you want to reward the riders who are good bike handlers, and penalise those who aren't. Doesn't actually have to be steep to do that mind!

[url= http://vholdr.com/node/24735 ]Worry Gill from the NPS XC at Dalby linked from the British Cycling website[/url]

Is that tech enough ?

mark nope.
I need a closer film, but from what I can see, clean line before and after a steep bit. It's not like they had to actually put the wheel in the correct place and to deal with a tight switchback in the middle of it.
Looks to me that people mistake techy with
Dangerous
Steep
Rocky

Worry Gill was IN NO WAY TECHNICAL. It's merely a drop that required a bit of balls.

Hated the start to that race, basically watched the top three ride away while the people between me and them minced it up. You can see my trackstanding at the top of that drop while the faceplanter is moved out of the way at 1min in that video.

moving away from 10..2.2 etc Hit the North and many other events are well run and as with all events will get better will more rider support. BC rules have their impracticalities and the organisers guide as a first go is OK but needs some parts addressing

I'm not sure where the obsession with "tech" parts of the course and making things more technical etc etc leads us

IMHO it's about geting the balance of the course right so that both fitness and technical skills are needed to do well whilst doing what you can with the venue (as this is the true limiting factor).

get it wrong and you will turn riders off, get it right and they come back for more. We make no claims to have got it right.

I hope the proposed race gets off the ground and is well supported, what is needed is more real racing and less faux racing (eg "challenges", marathon series etc)

After numerous meetings with BC in various muddy fields and supermarket cafes I’m not sure that either party knows what rules HtN operates under. Moutainbiking I think, certainly not CX. They gave us the mountainbike handbook but have never waived a rule book under our noses and said that we don’t comply with 10.22 or any other law.

From what I can gather as long as we and they apply a degree of common sense and ensure that the event is as safe as possible we can do what we want.

Design the course however you want to. But do it in a way that the insurer and the competitors are happy.

blimey. lots of answers for a passing thought.

anyway, watch this space. I think we'll be doing something in the future...

"but the black at laggan isn't tech at all"

Too tech for me. Guess I normally ride negative tech!

I would put in some reasonable downhill obstacles: drops, logs, awkward corners, root bundles - it makes riders think about how committed they feel. If they mince or walk them they lose time. If they crash, they lose time.

Overtaking on downhills, esp singletrack sounds dangerous - worse than 4X! I had assumed that courses were designed for chasing tails on the downhills and then overtaking on the uphills.