XC bike for the road vs. flat bar gravel bike

If both bikes had the same tyres on them (and assuming roughly same weight for rims) then you would really wouldn't notice much difference between them so I would base decision on what is more comfortable/fits you best.
You would notice more difference on a drop bar gravel bike as it will be faster but once you put flat bars on it you lose that benefit so may as well have an MTB so you can change tyres to MTB tyres when required and have an MTB.
I agree with you list of differences other than bunny hopping curbs and the like as I have been doing that on track bikes with 25c tyres for 20 years and never damaged anything in that time.

Whichever you prefer the look and feel of. That’s what will get you out and riding when the weather is naff. I’d ditch the sus fork if not going off road and run slightly bigger tyres at lower psi.

If you’re not looking to smash out miles at speed then comfort and places to attach stuff are key.

An mtb on gravel tyres is imo more versatile than a hybrid. Thats what I have used for my tour. I like a suspension fork even for road use

I never thought I’d ride a rigid bike again.
You need a Whippet…in fact everyone needs a Whippet.

Flat bar on the road? Why?

Get the gravel bike and go faster on the road, most road bikes are grand with potholes and bunny hops/jumps over ramps etc.

I've pissed about over the years and have settled on a orange FS and a road bike that can take 32c (nothing massive) which is well able for fireroad and means I enjoy my commute.

Flat bar on the road? Why?

Because many of us find flat bar, bar ends or alr-bar type things more comfortable and useful.

Each to thier own and all.

Because many of us find flat bar, bar ends or alr-bar type things more comfortable and useful.

Each to thier own and all

A flat bar with bar ends is a drop bar without the drops 🤣 (and the drops are really useful sometimes).

@the OP - my view is just buy a gravel bike and put some 40-55mm tyres on it. It is the bike that's designed for what you want to do after all...

A flat bar with bar ends is a drop bar without the drops 🤣 (and the drops are really useful sometimes).

Or a drop bar is a flat bar with superflous curly bits, weird levers and odd hand positions... 🤣

As long as you adopt the most efficient aero position for the road

You'll be fine

https://twitter.com/Ian_Fraser/status/1574781311117557762?s=19

theres generally a a degree or 2 difference in head angle
however, there is also usually a significant difference in gearing, my FB gravel bike runs a 44T chain ring. an XC bike is likely to be no larger than 36T. if you are doing a lot of road distance youll probably want hte higher top end
Also, my gravel bike is only certified as a road frame, id expect an xc frame to be classified a little tougher

I'd +1 the just get something drop bars, they're so much more comfortable once you get used to them.

Otherwise just get a nice XC bike. The speed difference is minimal (easily within the margin for fitness differences on a group ride) and the weight of the fork is negligible in the scheme of things.

+1 on getting something with drop bars, more comfortable, more aero, but gateway drug for head to toe lycra.

I put drop bars on my old HT in the spring, I kept the suspension fork and 2.2" semi-slick tyres so I don't get shaken to pieces on the various farm, forestry and estate tracks here in South Aberdeenshire, it rolls fast enough not be a drag on the tarmac. Its been fab for riding from the door for 2-3hr rides.

I would say that a36T chainring on that XC MTB you're looking out is too small for riding on the flat, on well surfaced tracks with any kind of downhill gradient I'm spinning at 110rpm+ on those kind of sections with 40:11 top gear even at endurance Z2 pace

110rpm with 40:11 is 32mph. Not being able to pedal at over that speed is not a concern for me at all so may not be a problem for OP.
(In reality I do pedal at 200rpm at over that speed but fixed gear is a different ball game!)

I’d +1 the just get something drop bars, they’re so much more comfortable once you get used to them.

'once you get used to them'?
I've done 1100 miles on my Free Ranger & the one thing I hate with a passion is the bars. How many more miles before I 'get used to them'?
Waits for the one inevitable 'you need a bike fit' bollox.
Great bike. Shit bars.

'Aggro-gravel? I like the sound of that!

Hmmm

I just bought a Trek Procaliber (tubeless 2.2 29er lightweight tyres, carbon frame, 100mm lock out fork running 1 x 12)

My commute is a 25k mix of potholed country roads, broken up farmers tracks and SDW style bridleways. Normally i do it on my Pinnacle Arkose with 650b x 47 and very very flared drops running 1 x 10 but obvs with a higher range.

I didn't buy the XC bike for the commute but thought I'd use it as well. I also thought it would be at least as fast, having bigger wheels and a fancy carbon frame etc but even allowing for the better climbing and faster descending its soooooo much slower on the road that overall its a slower commute by several minutes, sometimes 10 if its windy. So much so that initially i was dissappointed with it - which is crazy if you think about it as its not a hybrid! Took it off road on some single track and loved it.I guess what I'm trying to say is that bikes are generally designed to be good at what they are designed for! The procaliber is a fast XC bike but not in any way good on road - yes its faster than a 160mm FS but much slower than even a slow gravel bike like my Arkose in 650b guise.

EDIT Also my Arkose has full mudguards on in the winter and an XC bike will struggle with that - getting to work covered in mud is not great

What about a hybrid of the two? Rigid MTB

Yup, that's the sweet spot. Carbon fast MTB with a light rigid fork and decent brakes.
If I bought some nicer wheels, my Raleigh would tick the boxes

Rigid XC may fit the bill better, and it has a bigger option of tyres and suspension forks at some point. Especially if you are ruling out drops (two MTB's and two race road bikes here). You'll want to watch the gearing though.

Currently commuting 20 miles a day on a well maintained 90's rigid MTB - Schwalbe Landcruisers and a 44 x 13 biggest gear - haven't run out on the flat yea and it will do 18-20 mph loaded with heavy panniers. The bike isn't light though, so a Whippet might be a good choice.

My next bike would probably be a gravel bike to fit in the middle of what I have, with drop bars - I find these more comfortable, with more hand positions.

‘once you get used to them’?
I’ve done 1100 miles on my Free Ranger & the one thing I hate with a passion is the bars. How many more miles before I ‘get used to them’?
Waits for the one inevitable ‘you need a bike fit’ bollox.
Great bike. Shit bars.

‘Aggro-gravel? I like the sound of that!

The Selcof bars are horrible (IME, I seem to have Ritchey shaped hands, others probably do actually like the Selcof's, but at least on the bike I built with the, they were also unnecessarily stiff so gave me numb hands too) , so that's your reference point maybe try anything else before writing them off.

so that’s your reference point maybe try anything else before writing them off.

I sold a Spesh road bike a few years ago for the same reason.
I have thought about putting riser drops on to see if that makes a difference but I doubt if I will, I’ll probably end up with a Whippet or something similar, the main drawback being the size of the front ring possible. I quite like the 1x42 on the FreeRanger & don’t think the Whippet will take that size.

Ha! To drops being comfier! For true comfort you can’t beat insane risers with all the back sweep. Stooge bars are the comfiest thing. Just cruising along with relaxed wrists and nothing in a weird position. Madness! People preferring different things.

jones bars are comfiest..... FACT
but dont work with fused wrists.

drop bars are good for racing. no more.

flat bars and bar ends are good for touring.

Tyre choice and tyre pressure would probably make more difference, especially on rides under 30 miles. Personally, I would go for a light XC bike, as you can take that off-road. If you do go gravel bike though, opt for at least 35mm tyres, so you can drop the pressure.

I have thought about putting riser drops on to see if that makes a difference

Counter intuitively I found rising the bars made the whole bike worse as it takes all the weight off the front end. There's a narrow band between taking the weight off for comfort and not loading it enough for handling.
Obviously the fitter and more flexible you are the wider that gets as you can comfortably hold a lower position, but the upper limit seems set by your body geometry.

If both bikes had the same tyres on them (and assuming roughly same weight for rims)

This is a bit concerning actually with the Sonder lower-grade wheelsets- the gravel ones are 2180g, the XC ones will be some amount lighter than the 2480g wider MTB ones. My XM481/Pro4 wheelset is only 2045g.

Flat bar on the road? Why?

The hand positions and body position with drops don't appeal to me for comfort, control, and visibility. Never tried it though.

It is the bike that’s designed for what you want to do after all…

I guess what I’m trying to say is that bikes are generally designed to be good at what they are designed for!

Agreed, design intent and the choices the majority of people make isn't lost on me. They can't all be wrong, but I'm ok going my own way if I know the pros/cons (hence asking you folk - thanks).

however, there is also usually a significant difference in gearing, my FB gravel bike runs a 44T chain ring. an XC bike is likely to be no larger than 36T. if you are doing a lot of road distance youll probably want hte higher top end

I would say that a36T chainring on that XC MTB you’re looking out is too small for riding on the flat, on well surfaced tracks with any kind of downhill gradient I’m spinning at 110rpm+ on those kind of sections with 40:11 top gear even at endurance Z2 pace

Looking at the Sonder examples and bikecalc.com, the gravel one (40T/11) maxes at 100 gear inches, the XC one (32T/10) at 94. Yes it's a max 36T on the XC one, taking it to 105. But the gravel one will take much bigger.

110rpm with 40:11 is 32mph. Not being able to pedal at over that speed is not a concern for me at all so may not be a problem for OP.

Looking at this on bikecalc now too. No idea what RPM I do, googling says maybe 70. That's 21mph on 40:11, which seems too slow, and pretty much about the same with 36:10 after adjusting for a bigger tyre.

I’d ditch the sus fork if not going off road

I like a suspension fork even for road use

the weight of the fork is negligible in the scheme of things

What about a hybrid of the two? Rigid MTB

Yup, that’s the sweet spot. Carbon fast MTB with a light rigid fork and decent brakes.

my Arkose has full mudguards on in the winter and an XC bike will struggle with that

Rigid XC may fit the bill better, and it has a bigger option of tyres and suspension forks at some point

I see no real disadvantage in use to the fork other than not being able to run full mudguards, and my commute is tarmac anyway. Don't care about the weight, or the odd DIY service. If I wasn't looking at complete bikes due to the value for money aspect, I'd probably start off with rigid and see how it goes.

I’d go rigid over cheap sus fork for what you’re describing but again it’s what suits you. If you’ve never tried drops I’d definitely look to see if you can borrow or demo a bike with them. You might find they work well for you. Something wider with more flare than a road bar. I always liked Salsa Cowchippers.

You need a Whippet…in fact everyone needs a Whippet.

Yeah, but when push came to shove I sold mine rather than the gravel bike....

I had both a drop bar gravel and rigid XC bike for a while. Gravel defo better on road, much easier to 'make progress' and not a chore like the XC.

Both with flat bars and similar tyres though, I doubt it'll make much difference so personal preference and all that as there's not a wrong answer.

I have 3 drop bar bikes and a nice flat barred gravel bike I built up myself from a Dolan frame. It hads taken me about six months to get the handlebar set up right but now I have I’m really happy with it. I have a really wide bar with inboard bar ends plus lifeline copies of ergon gp2.

I almost bought a Sondor Frontier frame in the clearance last week but instead I built back my an old Scandal to use for a similar purpose as you it’s currently set up with 650b x42 wheels. I also have a nice hope 26 inch wheels to stick on when I want to take it on more rugged terrain and for bike packing. I took it out at the weekend and I was surprised how well it rode it was not much slower than my other gravel bikes.

The gearing is currently 40 11-42 though I’m going to add a front mech I’ve already added a 28 inner as a bail out gear when it gets steep or it’s fully loaded.

Today I learnt about low stack height on most XC bikes. My back is already hurting after I worked out the handlebar stack on the Sonder Dial, with the flat bar and 30mm of spacers it comes with standard. 45mm lower than my trail bike. Would be ridiculous to put a 40mm riser bar on top of all those spacers.

Any recommendations for an XC (or other genre) bike with a stack around 620-630mm in medium?

For me, the biggest difference between a flat bar and drop bar gravel bike is the high cost of drop bar hydraulic sti shifters. I reckon I could have saved a couple of hundred quid if I'd put flat bars on gravel bike.

Any recommendations for an XC (or other genre) bike with a stack around 620-630mm in medium?

An XC bike is for going fast under your own power so having a low front is good for that. You don't want to be sat up straight if going fast on flat/uphill is your goal, XC racers even have downward angled stems to get the bars even lower.

You can run full mudguards on a sus fork. Cable ties are you friend. Cable tie to the fork brace and p clips on the lower leg for the stays

These are a godsend when fitting full guards to a sus fork.
I just melt 2 holes in the mudguard with a soldering iron so that I can zip tie to the stays.
These stays don't move or rattle and are qr if you use their straps
https://www.tredz.co.uk/.SKS-Veloflexx-65-U-Stay-Kit-29_242456.htm?sku=816882&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Mudguards&gclid=CjwKCAjw7eSZBhB8EiwA60kCW6RTZVNeTkMyiEpX-EL2W_SvK7iCWOsJq-W6GImadZQnm5bBb-VR9hoCeI8QAvD_BwE

An XC bike is for going fast under your own power so having a low front is good for that. You don’t want to be sat up straight if going fast on flat/uphill is your goal,

I get that, it just happens to not be what I want.

You can run full mudguards on a sus fork. Cable ties are you friend

SKS Velo 65 is the plan now, found them a bit after writing the OP.

Any recommendations for an XC (or other genre) bike with a stack around 620-630mm in medium?

Ok, if you're determined to go this tall then I'd look at hybrids again. Raising the bars in isolation will unweight the front tyre and rob you of any front end grip. At least starting with something shorter reach/steep head angle, and longer stem will regain some of that (at the expense of all the modern benefits of stable handling).

You could keep an eye out on ebay/facebook for a Mk1/2/3 Stooge?

Cotic Cascade. Twice the price though!

Take some of the comments up there with a pinch of salt.

Take a look at the BBB BHS-25 Forged stem for a high rise stem. I ran it one on my rigid/hardtail with 35mm riser bars for a short while, I decided it was too high for me in the end (with suspension forks fitted but it was ok with the shorter rigid forks). But I didn't loose front end grip, in some ways higher bars make it easier to weight the front, particularly standing.

Maybe look at 3x8 gearing. Got it on my hybrid commuter currently, and miss the big chainring on my hardtail when riding down hills along the road or on the flat with wind behind.

Maybe look at 3×8 gearing.

Forgetting that most modern MTB frames are unlikely to be compatible with big chainrings and/or triple chainsets.

I get that, it just happens to not be what I want.

Okay, rules out option 1 of your question then so there's the answer - flat bar gravel bike it is

RE shorter higher bikes

Raising the bars in isolation will unweight the front tyre and rob you of any front end grip. At least starting with something shorter reach/steep head angle, and longer stem will regain some of that

You can go shorter reach / shorter FC and shorter stem also. You just learn to corner with a different weight shift that's more from the hips and an upright torso rather than moving forward to lean in your upper body. Front wheel weighting comes from where your C of G acts between the wheels, bar height influences that but doesn't really control it so you can adapt to the higher bar if that's an important spec for other handling or fit aspects.

An XC bike is for going fast under your own power so having a low front is good for that. You don’t want to be sat up straight if going fast on flat/uphill is your goal,

That's not wrong but it is the reasoning that gave us MTB designs of the early 90s rather than the current shape of MTBs. If a mix of power output and handling ability is what we're after it's a compromise point and the aerodynamic gain of a low position doesn't mean much for most of us when off-road.

OP, fwiw I ride a lot of the sort of thing you're talking about - open tracks and byways but I want a bike that can ride the local cheeky DHs as well as a few miles of tarmac in between. I have a 650B gravel bike that's more off-road capable than most and a fairly short, high geo rigid 29er with 2.4s - one is more aero on the road, the other handles fun, flowy off-road riding far better than a road-derived 'gravel' bike design will. The rigid 29er's not as fast as a FS bike o/c but it's engaging at lower speeds and rewards some handling skills (on the days when I remember what they are). It is a bit slower on road but only due to a less aero position, a compromise for the greater off-road handling ability.

I’d go rigid over cheap sus fork for what you’re describing but again it’s what suits you. If you’ve never tried drops I’d definitely look to see if you can borrow or demo a bike with them. You might find they work well for you. Something wider with more flare than a road bar. I always liked Salsa Cowchippers.

Will be doing just that this weekend, thanks to all of you for the advice.

Any recommendations for an XC (or other genre) bike with a stack around 620-630mm in medium?

To answer my own question, geometrygeeks.bike is the tool to answer such questions. Orbea Alma seems to be an option.

Yep you definitely need to try the options as everyone is different. For example I don't like wide bars, even on an MTB. I like my arms to be fairly straight and not splayed out which is how I feel with wide bars (risers or drops). I also find distance to bars is much more critical when using drops than risers.

You also really need a long ride or ideally a number of rides before really knowing. I ride a bike where I can literally change the bars in around a minute and change them just before I ride (no brake or gear levers) and I am still not really sure if I prefer drops or risers.

Every time I think of putting drop bars on my rigid MTB I come to the same conclusion as didnthurt, drop bar hydraulics are too expensive. I even looked at the Corner bar but reviews didn't look promising.
So is there a cheap option to use your existing MTB brakes with drop bars?

I happened upon the Surly Corner bars the other week, I don't know of anything else nor have I looked.

When I compared costs for 1x11, the full GRX800 groupset was £850 IIRC (now £1k), whereas MTB was £375 (£200 for M5100 drivetrain bits, £175 for a M6100 brake set).

While I agree the gravel/road group sets are more expensive (solely due to shifters) you are not comparing the right group sets. GRX800 is Ultegra/XT equivalent which Deore (M5100 and M6100) clearly isn't although XT is still only £500.

I have proper brakes on my MTB.

But I’m still fine with cable operated discs on my gravel bike. They are a much cheaper option

Ive recently ditched my gravel bike (NS RAG) and got a cheapish cannondale hardtail, used for road commutes, off road rides with the dog, riding with kids etc. Generally an all rounder and could never get on with drops, was forever tinkering with stems and positioning but decided to go xc bike and dont regret it at all. Ive put some schwalbe marathons on and swapped a few contact points but its a pleasure to ride compared to the gravel bike.

Tried a drop-bar bike over the weekend, hated it. My hands were in pain when in the drops for descents, even the smooth ones. I might well get used to it and condition my hands, but I don't think I'm interested in that experiment.

Looking at things like the Cotic Cascade (flat bar) and Marin Pine Mountain 2 now, which pretty much nail all the advantages I care about for gravel and XC bikes. Bikepacking or adventure hardtail, if you like.

Tried a drop-bar bike over the weekend, hated it. My hands were in pain when in the drops for descents, even the smooth ones. I might well get used to it and condition my hands, but I don’t think I’m interested in that experiment.

YOu'll get many here who'll tell you you're wrong... I sure did. But it's your money, your bike... I have a Raleigh Cadent that gets dragged out once a year to head to Belgium for a sportive or two... It's perfectly great at exactly what it's supposed to be...

Tried a drop-bar bike over the weekend, hated it. My hands were in pain when in the drops for descents, even the smooth ones.

Sounds strange, my hands are very comfortable when in drops as the least amount of pressure on them due to back position. But then you tried it and you are riding the bike but good to test. I actually find my hands have a much harder time on riser bars as hands/wrists in same position for however long the ride is combined with hands being at unnatural angle.

If the Pine Mountain still has that slightly odd, grifteresque riser bar with horizontal top cross bar, you may want to budget a bit of extra to swap that out. The crossbar makes the bars really stiff, no give at all. Tried one and thought the front fork was borked with all the shocks coming through the bars. Finally figured out it was the bars.......

Some dirty drop bar goodness yesterday. 100k but probably only 20% of it off road so totally not the best bike for the job with the 2.1" MTB tyres and 36T chainring but I really enjoyed it despite the headwind and tarmac inefficiency.
https://flic.kr/p/2nS34X4

Went for a Kona Unit X - rigid MTB 1x12 with 2.6" tyres. Doesn't need a suspension fork with that big tyre up front. I'd be happy riding it as it is, but will probably swap the wheels and tyres, and a few other bits for ergonomics.

I looked at loads of rigid MTB threads (and an article) on here. Only the Kona and Marin Pine Mountain 2 made the shortlist.

Others I looked at (that I remember):
Brother Big Bro
Bombtrack Beyond
Genesis Longitude
Giant Talon
Merida Big Trail
Stooge Scrambler
Surly Bridge Club
Surly Karate Monkey

Reasons I discounted them included:
Head angle too steep
Seat angle too slack
Seat tube too long
Standover too high
Chainring capacity too small
Rear spacing not Boost
Bottom bracket press-fit
Too much of a trail bike

Owner of a v4 camino with flat bars, not the one on the website, got something built up custom, but effectively similar.
Coming from a camino with drop bars that I’ve had for 4 years I feel qualified to comment. Night and day difference with the flat bar being better in every respect.yea, you can feel it marginally slower at 30km/h plus due to wind resistance but honestly, most of the time that’s not an issues.it’s off road where it really shines. Just more stability, more control, comfier by far. also the seat position makes more sense when descending, not crouched over like some sort of track cycling lunatic. love it.

I have the same thoughts. My 6.4kg drop bar fixed bike got stolen last week so bought a 10kg steel single speed with 680 wide risers (wide for me compared to what I have used in past).

I prefer the new bike and don't even care about the weight. The drop bar felt faster but the risers are actually more comfortable (I only ride for 2 hours max though), feel much more control especially downhill singletrack and just make the bike feel more fun to ride (which is the main thing)