[Closed] Would you not buy a shimano cup and cone hubbed wheelset...

Eh? What's wrong with cup and cone?

I love em. In fact i am about to buy a bike with them on as. Maybe.

I had a lovely xtr set of wheels, weighed nothing, no problem with cup and cone, just get the spanners and clean and regrease once in a while.

depends on the spec i wouldnt let cup and cone put me off i just serviced the rear deore hub on my spicy - simples

I'd buy em....no worries.

THE Big Hitter loves them too.

I have these;

http://www.merlincycles.com/bike-shop/wheels/mountain-bike-wheels/sale-wheels/pair-xt-disc-hubs-15mm-front-ztr-355-rims.html

XT hubs with Stans rims for £150. For that price I can handle cup and cone.

serial hamfisted bodger = do not buy ( they need a bit of looking after)

Shed dwelling tinkerer = buy without a second thought.

So OP ,which one are you? 🙂

also okay for people who can't do their own servicing as any bike shop should be able to sort them very cheaply as the balls cost sod all so it's pretty much just labour cost + truing etc if getting the whole wheel looked at.

Cup and cone needs regular maintenance. If you have several bikes (and a family) it's hard to keep on top of that.

But it's the disposable freehubs that put me off more.

only issue with them is if your a "its making no noise its fine" kind of rider. they need preventitive maintainance.

by the time you hear the issue - its too late.

Why would you not buy one. Far better than those daft "sealed " bearings which get chucked so often.

I wouldnt, i cant be arsed with the cup and cone thing. sealed bearings last fine for me.

I wouldn't use Shimano hubs for the same reason I wouldn't use a spinning jenny or watch a black and white telly

seems a bit odd to discount shimanos hubs because you dont spin yarn or are not colour blind.....

And to think some people still burn wood in their houses when all that delicious gas gets piped in from Russia. Blow me...

If I end up with them again I would fill them full of grease as soon as I get them. Sealed bearing make much more sense as they can be replaced, cups can't. They will keep going though, I have a set somewhere which are rough as anything, but they do roll, just a bit rumbly...

I wouldn't but I am lazy and really don't like servicing them. However, if you don't mind doing that then go for it.

That's not what Jenny said 😉

Because Pro 2's are better and make a louder freewheeling noise.

I bought Hope hubs for the service of the freehub (as certainly at the sort of Deore end years ago a freehub cost about 75% of the hub cost (but didn't need wheelbuilding so possibly only 40-50% of paying for a new hub and a wheel build.

To be fair though in my experience shimano freehubs have lasted ages it's freehubs on generic wheels that have failed.

I am considering some deore wheels so that I can make a cheap conversion of my SS to geared. I'd love to go Hope gain but as the bike will swap between SS/Geared I really can't justify the extra expense.

I was born in 1961, I know how to clean and lube a chain, maintain cup and cone bearings (and having been a skater in the 70s I also learned that if you buy sealed cartridge bearings with neoprene seals you can actually service them too). I really really hate waste these days. I'd be happy with a hub with cup and cone bearings and a rebuild-able freehub)

They don't actually need that much maintenance...

it's the disposable freehubs that put me off more.

Hmm. Cup and cone bicycle wheel bearings, cup and cone bearings, they'll be filed in the same drawer as -

Solid iron tyres
Penny-farthings
Waterwheels
Leather cannons (I kid you not)
Jousting armour
Bronze axes
Pointy sticks

As with all the above, there isn't anything particularly wrong with them, they're just old hat and there are better alternatives.

Cartridge bearings get binned at the end of their life. If your doing it right, ball bearings get binned every time you service the cup+cone too. Not too much difference there in material wastage.

So, can someone tell me, do some of the other hubs have serviceable freehubs? I'm fed up with the cost of the big B freehubs replacements.

Given the faff with my hubs yes, easy to service and no real problems at all. Still have cup and cone on the road bike.

I've some old Hope hubs,XC and Bulb,which have only ever needed bearing changes despite heavy use.Never even replaced the pawls and springs.Same as my WTB hubs.
Cup and cone on my road bike and need a lot of maintenance to keep them running smooth and with no play .When its time for some new road wheels Shimano is tempting but ultimately the cup and cone will stop me.

No. I'd rather buy second hand sealed bearing wheels.

[i]better than those daft "sealed " bearings which get chucked so often[/i]

"so often"..? Like every 4 years?

What John Nellison said 🙂 all the hubs we have had issues with in our local MTB club have been with cup and cone, yes due to lack of fiddling around with cone spanners and re-greasing when we are spending our time riding bikes and drinking beers. Sorry it's old tech and cartridge bearings are simple to replace and cheap too.

better than those daft "sealed " bearings which get chucked so often

"so often"..? Like every 4 years?

Or two months in the case of my new Superstar wheels. Now I have to spend money on new set ([b]not[/b] cheap if I want decent bearings). If I still had cup and cone, I'd just put some grease in and tighten them up - takes what, 15 minutes? My Hopes go through at least a set a year too, probably more.

I'd buy cup and cone again.

Yip... they're murder those sealed bearings you have to change all the time. Takes a whole 5 minutes, and a few quid, every few years. Time is money, and all that.....

I'm unconvinced by the quality of the current Shimano hubs... And changing axle standards is a problem. But other'n that I'd have no issue with it.

Though to be fair, I think a lot of people's experience of cartridge bearing hubs is also poor, because they're using Pro 2s etc with unnecessarily short bearing lives. I became much more a fan of cartridge when I got my DTs.

UrbanHiker - Member

Cartridge bearings get binned at the end of their life. If your doing it right, ball bearings get binned every time you service the cup+cone too.

You're really not doing it right if you either a) replace the bearings just because the grease was a little dirty or b) service them so rarely that by the time you do the bearings were knackered.

Sealed bearings every time for me, although I personally don't have much faith in Hope hubs. The local sand and grit finds it's way into the pawl cavity in no time.

My personal favourites are the DMR 9 speed and singlespeed hubs. Bearing life and weight are reasonable and they're very very easy and cheap to service. They're also available in red, which floats my boat.

Take your point Northwind, I just thought it was good practice to replace them as a precaution.

So do any hubs have maintainable freehubs?

[i]Superstar wheels[/i]

Nuff said 😉

When they are adjusted up and serviced correctly, good quality cup and cone feel lovely on a road bike. So floaty smooth. I like the difference in feel so I use both and enjoy the contrast. The freehubs are shite on cup & cone I have to agree. I h8 disposable, non maintainable stuff.

My XT rear wheel is borked. Cone took it upon itself to tighten hard against the bearings, crushing the ball bearings and destroying the race surface and cone. A £150 wheel now dead as spare hub bodies are unavailable. Cartridges for me from now on.

Oh lord, its turned into one of [i]those[/i] threads.

As I'm more of a 'fix it when its broke' type person I'm still not convinced.

Why are people saying Hope cartridge bearings dont wear out - do you ever ride in the wet or just sit on your turbo trainers 😉

I sometimes get less than a month before I have lots of play and a rough feel. Worst is on my 20mm front pro 2 which has only the cartridge seals between the bearings and the elements - sits directly on the axle.

Servicing cone bearings maybe a faff but replacing cartridge bearings is no cake walk - especially the rear which is a huge faff.

I would replace with cone type but I am quite proud of the wheels I built on both my bikes - and would be out of pocket massively.

Next time I replace the bearings I will cram them full of grease first to see if that helps - but I still think they are a rubbish idea.

Why are people saying Hope cartridge bearings dont wear out - do you ever ride in the wet or just sit on your turbo trainers

Had well over a year on my current front ones and rear haven't been changed since I bought it 2nd hand a year or 2 ago. Been riding in all sorts of weathers and a summer/wet autumn of Whistler where it got more use than a year of UK riding for me.

trigger happy see below

Stainypants - Member

in the ye old days around here with rim brakes your rims would last near the life of a cup and cone hub

Servicing cone bearings maybe a faff but replacing cartridge bearings is no cake walk - especially the rear which is a huge faff.

1. Once, every other year, drop wheel in LBS
2. Pick wheel up from LBS the following day, with lovely smooth new bearings
3. Ignore for 2 years
4. Repeat

its an effing nightmare!!!! 😉

in the ye old days around here with rim brakes your rims would last [b]no where near[/b] the life of a cup and cone hub but now we all disc brakes the hubs are now the weakest link, i've trashed a few hubs i'm not the best at looking after stuff had no problem with hope ones

If i recall correctly, you can replace the cups in shimano hubs, its not easy mind.

I've used both, well sealed cup and cone last ages. I have a set of deore hubs that still spin smoothly despite riding through flood water that was deeper than the wheels some 10 years ago. I've not used much in that time though.

That being said, the hope XC hubs on the commuter bikes are getting on for 7 years old, around 35,000 miles. I've had one of the rear bearings seize in that time. Wore out a set of pawls though, and the freehub body is looking a bit rough around the seal area.

King hubs seem to be a mix of both, you can adjust the play out of them via a cone set up, but if the bearings do fail you can replace the cartridge entirely.

I have a 5 year old set of M475 shimano hubs on my wheels. These are the most basic ones shimano made.

5 years of riding in all weathers and they have lasted well. I have changed the bearings twice. 10 minutes per wheel and jobs-a-good-un.

Getting a set of XT wheels on the new bike - not because I dislike cartridge bearings, but because i have had so many years of trouble free biking on Shimano wheels.

1. Once, every other year, drop wheel in LBS
2. Pick wheel up from LBS the following day, with lovely smooth new bearings
3. Ignore for 2 years
4. Repeat

Got a 5/6 year old set of XT/819's on my winter hardtail - they've been 'serviced' once in that time & still run smooth. Not sure if the newer stuff is less reliable but not seen/heard any horror stories with them recently.

...but replacing cartridge bearings is no cake walk - especially the rear which is a huge faff.

If you're a ham-fisted bungling neanderthal, maybe. I can replace a full set of rear bearings on a Pro2 in 15 minutes, if I take my time. If I'm in a rush I can do it in 10.

And I don't need cone spanners or any other special tools - a plastic hammer, a 6mm pin-punch and a selection of old sockets is all that's needed.

Or two months in the case of my new Superstar wheels. Now I have to spend money on new set (not cheap if I want decent bearings). If I still had cup and cone, I'd just put some grease in and tighten them up - takes what, 15 minutes? My Hopes go through at least a set a year too, probably more.

If you buy bearings from a bike shop or from Superstar you will pay over the odds. Go to a proper bearing supplier (take the old ones with you if don't know what size they are) and you'll pay under £20 for a full front and rear set. Insist on quality items such as SKF, Toyo or NSK, not cheap Chinese/Indian/Iraqi/Yorkshire copies.

The problem with cartridge bearings is that NOBODY uses the correct type in hubs - everyone uses deep groove radial bearings which are fine for rotating loads but not for side-loading. The correct type should be angular contact, or even taper roller, but the latter two types are expensive and require some form of preloading. Not easy in the restrictive space around a bike frame/fork.

Always had problems keeping them at the proper tension and when they get loose it damages the cone surface which ruins the hub. You can wreck cartridge bearings without worrying about the hub.

I've used both.

Hope XC and Hope ProII

and

Shimano XT.

I've replaced cartridge bearings in my hope hubs. Its not as straightforward as just undoing the cups and squirting in some new grease but you don't have to do it as often.

I really don't have a preference

What about that, a range of good and bad experiences with both bearing types!

As for the opening question, no I would most certainly not buy them.

Out of all the wheels I've owned, the only hubs that have been trashed have been Shimano. A motley collection of dead freehubs (several), irreplaceable pitted cups, and hubs that from new have come with loose locknuts which wind up and trash the bearings (two, one knackering a particularly nice set of XT road wheels). Oh, and they seem to weigh half a ton.

So I have either sold them and/or replaced dead ones with cartridge hubs.

So far:

number of problems with exploding hope flanges: 0
number of problems with cartridge bearing lifespan: 0
number of problems with worn out pawls: 0

The sum total of the cartridge hub servicing has been on my wife's Xero XR1, on her roadie since 2006, they have > 10k miles on and so far have had 1 new set of bearings. Oh, and my hopes are due a bit of regreasing.

The humanity!

binners - Member

1. Once, every other year, drop wheel in LBS
2. Pick wheel up from LBS the following day, with lovely smooth new bearings

I've stood in my LBS waiting to be served for longer than it takes to service either an XT or a Pro 2 hub. Your way sounds **** regardless of your choice of hubs.

OTOH, the only way I could get 2 years out of a set of bearings would be to ride about 1/6th as much as I do so I'll not be doing that either 😉

I've got fed up with cup and cone. Inevitably a cone gets pitted so you decide to replace it. However, the cost of most Shimano cones is not far off the price of a new hub. It doesn't make sense. Unless you religiously remember to overhaul your hubs every few months you'll end up with worn cones. Although I've never a problem with the cups going on a Shimano hub.

Cartridge for me from now on. Especially as they much easier to replace IMO. Don't both by the genuine spares. Measure the bearing and then order off from an online bearing shop (or eBay which is often cheaper for the P&P).

I know it was 7 hrs ago, and a load of posts, but,

I sometimes get less than a month before I have lots of play and a rough feel.

i just couldn't bring myself to take either c&c or cartridge hubs to a bike shop for a fettling. While i am sure there are plenty of top class mechanics in our bike shops I have encountered a few whose skills were considerably less than my own non too impressive skills.

mtbfix - Member
My XT rear wheel is borked. Cone took it upon itself to tighten hard against the bearings,

Chortle. Do you own cone spanners?

I wouldn't use anything [i]but[/i] Shimano cup-and-cone hubs.

IME, overhauling the bearings takes 15-30 minutes and needs doing maybe once every 12-18 months at most. I've never actually managed to come even close to killing one at LX/105 level or above, and I've used some for over 10 years. They just keep going.

However, the cost of most Shimano cones is not far off the price of a new hub.

Que?

The cone's are a couple of quid! The balls are pennies! In fact you can buy an entire XT rear hub for less than you'd pay for half decent bearings for a pro2!

Hmmm. The wheels that came with my 01 Stumpy FSR have got WTB cup & cone hubs.

They've never been serviced. The rear hub is pretty grumbly, but they both still work fine. I have thought about servicing them for the last few yrs but reckon it would be terminal if I did so have just left them.

i had a spoke replaced on the rear a few weeks ago and got the bad news that the rim has split(along the internal surface you stick the rim tape to), so I'll be retiring that wheel because of the rim, not the hub.
If the hubs on my new(er) FSR last that long, I'll be pleased. Although I will probably service them at some point....

8000+ road miles on cup and cone bearings last year and they are still as tight as the day they were purchased. I will service them before they go back on for the warmer weather.

Thing I've learned with shimano cup and cone is there isn't enough grease in them from the factory. When you buy new, open them up, splurge the world's supply of grease in there and close. Leave alone for the rest of your life.

I've got Shimano, Hope and a GI front hub, the only one that gives me 'some' trouble is the Hope XC rear...pawls, bearings that wouldn't come out, trashed freehub, but that's over 4-5 years or so.

Que?

The cone's are a couple of quid! The balls are pennies! In fact you can buy an entire XT rear hub for less than you'd pay for half decent bearings for a pro2!

Where from? I've never been able to find a supply at a sensible price. Any links very much appreciated.

only issue with them is if your a "its making no noise its fine" kind of rider. they need preventitive maintainance.

by the time you hear the issue - its too late.

Which in my case was ten miles into the Kielder 100. In retrospect this was a good thing as my Avid brakes shat the bed around the same time.

I've stood in my LBS waiting to be served for longer than it takes to service either an XT or a Pro 2 hub. Your way sounds * regardless of your choice of hubs.

Sounds like the problem isn't hubs or bearings, but a * LBS. My LBS is great. Which is just as well because I've the mechanical aptitude of an orangutan with learning difficulties. Hence my loathing of the medieval technology involved in Shimano hubs. They really are ****!! I like riding my bikes. I do it a lot. I don't however like fannying around with them after every ride. So there! 😛

Binners,

most of the posts in favour of cup and cone state that the maintenance is minimal - perhaps even less than that of cartridge hubs.

If you need to fanny around with them after every ride, the problem is you - not the hub.

"[i]the medieval technology involved in Shimano hubs. They really are ****!![/i]"

It is, of course, only the same technology that's in the cartridge bearing.

It's just that cones are designed for people are happy operating spanners, whereas cartridges are designed for people who prefer to hit things with hammers. No great shame in that, but it's disingenuous to claim that cups and cones are somehow inferior or obsolete.

I wouldn't [i]not[/i] buy them, in that I wouldn't go out of my way to avoid them, but all things being equal I'd probably go for cartridge ones first.

Where from? I've never been able to find a supply at a sensible price. Any links very much appreciated.

I had Mercian cycles as my LBS, they just took them out of a little box of them. But they are an old skool LBS and are better known for making some rather nice steel frames (including for Paul Smith!)

Google is your friend though, £3 each for the cones. Whole hubs for £10 front, £25 rear.
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbs=p_ord:p&tbm=shop&sclient=psy-ab&q=shimano+xt+hub+rear&oq=shimano+xt+hub+rear&gs_l=serp.3...8468.9749.2.9812.5.5.0.0.0.1.360.735.0j3j0j1.4.0...0.0...1c.1.eEU5slldvZc&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41018144,d.d2k&fp=2295338f0a6c996f&biw=833&bih=544

you can swap the internals betweend eore and XT hubs, as long as you use the right spacers as one freehub has the bearign further outboard than the other.

It's just that cones are designed for people are happy operating spanners, whereas cartridges are designed for people who prefer to hit things with hammers. No great shame in that, but it's disingenuous to claim that cups and cones are somehow inferior or obsolete.

From a mechanical perspective C&C wins hands down as it can take axial loads, a radial cartrige bearing (as used in most hubs) takes radial loads, their axial rating is much much lower, angular contact bearings (like you get in headsets) would be better, but aren't as common. Cartriges advantage is in the seals and their disposable nature.

Apologies if this has been discussed as I've only skim read this thread but...

Sealed bearings in my limited experience (pro2 evo's) do not roll as well as cup and cone. I think if I were building an XC race bike I'd consider cup and cone for this reason.