[Closed] Would you buy a (new) fatbike for ~£1k?

My BR710s arrived 8) Just waiting for my spokes. Hopefully, along with the spokes will magically come some clue about building wheels, since I'm doing it myself, aaargh.

Nickgti - is that wait for a warranty replacement?

If so, what was their initial response like? Do they require a store to inspect the fault before replacing parts? Asking as I ordered online die to local store being a bit of a trek.

To be fair to the store they have been great, but it's head office which are being slow and rather unhelpful

And yeah around 4 weeks from telling them it's broken and been put on the "waiting list".

The first crank I had under warranty I just took the bike in they gave me a temp crank and phoned when the new arrived. But they didn't have a spare wheel to give me.

still no wheel, given them till Friday otherwise the bike is getting returned

Anyone thinking of one of these, if you have children in Beavers/Cubs/Scouts/Guides etc, you get additional 10% off if your Scout/Guides group use OSM...(if your in Scouting you probably use it already).
Scout /Guide Leaders get 15% off.
Just a thought...

Unfortunately (?) I don't know any scouts/guides etc, but I did manage to get 10% off buy paying £5 for their loyalty card.

Fresh goods thursday - I had notice from the goods in guy downstairs that my Dune had arrived so I now have a boot full of fat in large flavour.

First thing of note, my bike has shipped with Kenda Juggernaut Pro tyres, not the Jumbo Jims as listed. Not sure if to be miffed by this or not frankly?!
Quick search reveals these tyres are some of the lightest around (they are the 120tpi folding bead versions), and best used for summer conditions which supposedly goes for the JJ's.

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given JJ'a are ~50 quid and Juggernaut Pros are ~£70+ (and as you've realised even lighter) not sure you've got much cause to be miffed?!

I've got some juggernauts, very good dry weather tyres, as u'd expect though show them even a little moisture, an off camber trail & it's a quick visit to wipe out city

ctm - Im not too clued up on current tyre pricing, just recall some mentioning how the JJ's were a boon given the asking price of the bike.
When I looked into the Juggernauts I started to realise that it seems a pretty good swap out.
Although, given the time of year (trails finally drying) I may consider myself more lucky!

rd - any good on chalky/flint trails?

rd - any good on chalky/flint trails?

No idea, it's all Loam/clay & roots around here

either way you're going to be wanting some winter tyres

When the Dune first came out JJs were about £80 but they've come way down since so it's not the big excitement it was. Annoyed about that tbh, I meant to sell one of mine but didn't get round to it til after the price drop.

Has the Juggernaut Pro even made it to retail in the UK yet? I think there'll be some folks keen to get their hands on that, if you decide you don't like it.

good point - they are hard to find! Best I could do was find a pair in the US priced at around £95.

I'll hold out for some super cheap floaters unless I read of any other bargains in the mean time.

I got my juggernauts from ridewill in Italy

Have you been able to compare them with JJs by any chance? And, any downsides to the weight? I think the original ones they sent out to reviewers basically fell apart instantly... I've got quite used to my 4.8s but I wouldn't mind shedding a kilo of tyre sometimes 😯

(ridewill are sold out btw)

Blow me those are some low profile knobbles!

I've a set of Floaters I picked up in the On-One sale I was saving for my next bike if you fancy a swap thisisnotaspoon@yahoo.co.uk

either way you're going to be wanting some winter tyres

yeah, in 6 months time (fingers crossed!)

I'll hold out for some super cheap floaters

they've been £15 each in their "liquidation" sale, sure they will be again.

I've a set of Floaters I picked up in the On-One sale I was saving for my next bike if you fancy a swap

surely there's a 😆 missing off the end of that?

surely there's a missing off the end of that?

damn - now im caught in a struggle between giving them a trial, or keeping them new and passing them on..

I had hilarious results with my fat arse and a set of Maxxis Minotaurs a few years ago.. I don't tend to do so well with low profile tread patterns!

rd - any good on chalky/flint trails?

The JJs are great on loose flint/chalk round my bit of the Downs, and the Dune a brilliant bike on same, but as I found to my (hand/glove's) cost, they pick up clay and keep it until they meet their friend Mr Clay, and with exactly zero friction between the two, find a teeny camber and you're eating dirt lightning fast. Cue hole in glove and hand, Mr Flint!

When the tyre wasn't clagged or submerged in deep mud (it won't move once it gets too deep) it was okay, but although I think it was the clay/clay combo, there's a definite pucker factor in any mud since! I'm thinking of some Nates for winter, or the 4.0 Minions if they ever appear.

damn - now im caught in a struggle between giving them a trial, or keeping them new and passing them on..

try em, if you don't like em sell em on - they'll be used yes but unlikely to show any wear in the time it takes you to decide whether you like em. Given their rrp and lack of availability you'll still sell em at a decent price to someone keen to drop weight. Floaters are currently showing as £29.99, but I bought one at £20 and one at closer to £15 when they were in their liquidation sales the last few weeks and have em sat as cheap spares in the garage.

If you don't go tubeless then the Schwalbe 26" x 3" FR tubes mentioned earlier in the thread are a good way to lose weight (~180g each, OE tubes tend to be closer to 450g).

Juggernaut Pro 4.0s are ~830g and Jumbo Jim liteskin 4.0s are ~990g.

I gave up waiting for Pros to hit the UK at sub-£50 per tyre and chose JJ snakeskin 4.0s (1093/1130g) instead for £40 each in the Ebay 20% sale at Easter.

I finally got round to fitting them and the sv13f tubes yesterday, but things did not entirely work out... The tube I used on the front blew at an incredibly low pressure while inflating, dismantling showed a ~4" split along one of the seams ~4" from the valve. 🙁
Still trying to decide whether to try and get a replacement or just write it off, I reckon it is the first thing I've bought online that has gone wrong within a reasonable timeframe of use! 😯

If it's any consolation I've been using the 13Fs in 4.0 JJs since Feb without any problems. Imo the lack pf friction between the tyre and the tube makes the trails come alive *cough*.

Bad luck your 13F burst but I think that's all it is

Well, for anyone that's possibly interested, here's what a large Dune looks like:
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[URL= http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae168/keepitsteel/2583B1E3-2C59-490B-9907-2B839B0D1A01_zpsvcy28nn1.jp g" target="_blank">http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae168/keepitsteel/2583B1E3-2C59-490B-9907-2B839B0D1A01_zpsvcy28nn1.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
And out of the box:
[URL= http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae168/keepitsteel/BA2C2494-C2ED-4469-B132-4F00A472DC11_zpsrazu0xrn.jp g" target="_blank">http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae168/keepitsteel/BA2C2494-C2ED-4469-B132-4F00A472DC11_zpsrazu0xrn.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
And weight complete with reflectors, bell etc:
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First impressions of trundle around the street, feel suprisingly like a bike! Handles completely normally at low speed, you can feel a stronger gyroscopic effect in place when turning at slightly higher speeds, but I'm sure I'll get used to it quickly. Tyres are over inflated currently so will tweak tomorrow and go for a spin off road.
I've tightened the BB axle bolts and drop out bolts, and reset the callipers (I'd rather have paid a tenner less and received no brakes, they're shite!) . What other things should I perhaps consider before setting off on a phone adventure?

I've already dropped about 400g ditching the naff plastic bits that were hanging off it, and switching the rotors to a new set I had laying around waiting for the right bike to show up.

Spare tube?

Good point, may hunt down some of those that CTM listed above

[url= https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7421/26851410085_15af817ac7_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7421/26851410085_15af817ac7_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/GULuJi ]Last of the bluebells ride[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/alexleigh/ ]Alex Leigh[/url], on Flickr

[url= https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7438/26757567512_cca010162e_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7438/26757567512_cca010162e_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/GLtwAU ]Last of the bluebells ride[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/alexleigh/ ]Alex Leigh[/url], on Flickr

Had mine out today for the first time in a month and the first time EVER on dry trails (back on the JJs now). Even got a PR on some flowy singletrack, the grip is immense. You sort of forget that. And the bit where you go from 'floating' to 'battering'.

I'm sort of torn between buying a bluto for it, or buying a large frame and swapping my bits onto it. But then I'd have one medium frame with two brand new sets of original gear... this doesn't seem to make any sense at alL!

Sell it and buy a large? You'd probably get a good price for the med

I love my OO fatty. I haven't ridden any of my other bikes on my local rides since I've had it. I think of it as a "pedal powered tractor" when I'm riding it. It handles some extremely rough and well horsed local bridleways, which would be un-rideable on my other bikes, with ease

I think I spent 650 quid building it up in the end, taking advantage of the frame at £130 in the Xmas day sale and the floaters for £20 each in another sale really helped keep the cost down. More than a Dune but not by much.

Having said that if I were looking now I'd definitely go for a large Dune.

What other things should I perhaps consider before setting off on a phone adventure?

I'm heavy. How much should I account for extra PSI according to my weight?

When do you know you've hit the sweet spot with regards to tyre pressure?

Looking good!

TBH you just need to fanny about with pressures- I tried to use Internet Advice but it doesn't work at all for fatbikes because it depends too much on what you ride. I got a load of comments from wellmeaning beach riders and flatted pretty much instantly. Work down til you puncture! Fatbike flats are a total pain in the arse, so if you don't already have a big bag pump like a morph or truflo telescopic then I would definitely recommend it...

Just occured to me that Kenda missed the opportunity to name those the Big Block. I can only assume they've got a knobblier one on the way, otherwise they're idiots

I'm heavy. How much should I account for extra PSI according to my weight?

When do you know you've hit the sweet spot with regards to tyre pressure

Just been on the GO Outdoors website and it says:-

The Dune Bike comes with Kenda Juggernaught Pro tyres and NOT Schwalbe Jumbo Jims as shown.

Noticed this above the spec rundown

When do you know you've hit the sweet spot with regards to tyre pressure?

The fat tyre contact patch is lateral. The sweet spot allows them to deform for max grip and minimum rolling resistance. Unlike thin tyres if you pump them up too hard the contact patch becomes more longitudinal and they drag like hell. If they're too soft the tyre starts to tuck while cornering. Just start with some random single figure pressure like 7 or 8 psi and adjust to suit. 1 psi at fat tyre volume is a lot of air

Well spotted crushbrother.

Ok, I need to stock up on tubes and a large volume pump.

Just went for a cruise down to the local shop, it certainly is a headturner. Feels great so far, although tyre pressures are high and it rolls really fast. Be interesting to see how much drag there is when I let some air out.

Tyres make such a THRUMMMMM! On Tarmac eh?!

Right, what's the best way to go 1x10 on this Dune freewheel?

Also, is the freewheel easily replaceable, or even upgradeable?

Oh, and is the crank 104bcd?

It's a pretty normal freehub so it'll take any cassette. And yep 104.

I'd be surprised if you don't find an interchangable freehub on other wheels but I don't know of any that are a direct fit. Mine's been fine tbh- the bearings were gash in the rear hub mind. It's roughly the same design as the DT Swiss 3-pawl hubs but not the same dimensions I think. I see some reliability grumbles on the net mind...

But for now, it's just a freehub, it'll take any normal cassette.

Ditto what was said about investing in one of those Topeak digital guages.
Not a fat owner, but on my 29+/b+ behemoth, down at 10-14 psi, it makes a noticeable difference dropping or upping a couple of psi.

One of these? : https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/201512657462

That's the one - they're £24.99 in Cycle Scourgery, and I couldn't find anywhere much cheaper that had them available within a few days.

Sorted. Have bought tubes and digital gauge.
Went for a spin this afrernoon, never had so many people comment in my life. They can't help themselves!

Loving how the bike feels, it must go like stink when stripped of a bit of weight. So weird riding between hard pack and grass and barely noticed a difference in drag, it just keeps going!

I had mine up the golfy today, got some funny looks popping out the bottom of 3G 😆 Definitely found the limits of the 4.8 JJ though, completely useless today- it was dry but crumbly so it just found no grip at all.

I have no other reference for grip other than these Kenda's, I'm sure I'll find their limit once we get a fresh downpour as the tread profile is so low. No idea what set to buy as an alternative yet.

NW - have you got 4.8s front and rear? Can see how a 5.0 would possibly fit up front but not sure about out back.

Took on a short staircase today, kind of expected the Dune to take it in its stride, but was quickly reminded that I on a fully rigid bike, and longed for my dropper post.

Tyres came fitted with high pressures so have been gradually leaching them. Have now got a satisfying amount of squish - but immediately noticed a bit of auto-wandering at the front once it went below a certain pressure. Eases off when you pick up the pace.

Aye, 4.8s front and back- Minion out front and JJ in the back. Well, none of them are actually 4.8 wide but they're all claimed. 4.8 rear might be tricky with a 2x setup but it's grand with 1x.

The Bud nearly doesn't fit- if you increase the pressures up high, it grows so much that it jams in the wee bolt eyelet at the top of the seatstays. But at normal pressures it shrinks. Kind of mad tbh! So, I've a feeling a true 4.8 might just be too big.

No idea how big you can go in hte front. Big!

How do you find the extra width?.. Much benefit all round?

For the stuff I ride, it's just plain better IMO, they've got more bounce and more grip and the drag's no great drawback. Simple as that. But I fatbike stupidly, today like I say I was up the golfy at innerleithen riding ews race stages, for teh lulz. The correct answer, up there, is a 2.3-2.5 tyre and some suspensions so 4.8 is just a better wrong answer really...

Vee Rubber Vee8 folders are £19.99 in the CRC sale. Fairly mixed reviews, seems like they could be ok for SDW type trails. Anyone used them?

I found that entering a quagmire at speed with my Floaters the front would do that sideways slip. Anyone else experienced this and what tyre is not so prone to it?
(TBH Bonty Muds are the only tyre I've not experienced this with.)

The brown On-One Floaters are currently £19.99 each, the other colours are ~£25 and the default black version (better compound performance due to lack of colouring?) is ~£30.

I'm still torn whether to buy a pair of Fat Not Fat 29er wheels for ~£120. Still trying to determine if the front wheel is RDS or FDS.

You guys might want to look at CRC, especially if you have British Cyling membership (10% off), they have custom Hope wheel builds including fat bike hubs.

I'm thinking about trying 4.8 up front and maybe keeping 4 or 4.5 at the rear, leaving a little more room at the back for clearance.
Have read that the J Js are good in dry conditions but not so good in mud. Ideally I'd like to fit a set of all rounders as I'm less inclined to faff with tyres once they're fitted. what are the obvious choices?

I like the sound of the Minuon FBF up front as its sounds really grippy and I want to hunt for the limits of cornering grip. Also sounds pretty heavy though?

Are there any Mud X for Fat?
Are the surly tyres (good range at Charlie the monger) good for trail action?

For mud, most folks recommend the Nate (3.8) or Bud (4.8). I have a Bud, it's very good but it's also very damped- which should be good, it gives you more control and less bounce but for me it sucks the life out of the bike, and also it's really low on feedback so it's hard to trust when you're pushing on a bit.Minion isn't quite as grippy in mud as the Bud, but, it's more predictable so I can work the grip it has better. They're both more or less the same weight and yep, heavy but that's just pretty much how it is, for fatbikes.

Haven't used a Nate. Makes sense to me, the wider the tyre the more float it has and that's not always good so maybe the narrower 3.8 works better.

Cheers NW, it's all beginning to make sense. Picked up a folding Fat B nimble for £39 earlier which seems a really good price. Will probably use that on the rear and save the juggernauts for Sunday best..
Might try your FBF up front.

I'm have been running mate upfront with a FBN out back for a while now. Great combo, I found Nate front and rear very draggy and like Made the bike feel very lethargic. The FBN rolls nicely but is heavy, I have just purchased a second hand Jim from Northwind to run on the rear which is lighter still. Hoping that will liven things up even more.

I'm not sure whether to be proud of myself or to curse myself as stupid but I wAlked away from Halfords without buying the Voodoo yesterday. Last one they had with no more coming. Even the wife was telling me to buy it but I couldn't seen to justify another bike to myself.

Going to kick myself later in sure.

Go and get it now!

zippykona - Member
Go and get it now!

+1
Or head to the Doctors as clearly you must be feeling unwell 😉

Dahedd, I'm only 2 rides in and I'm hooked - it's such a different kind of experience that I feel completely justified in upping my N quota!

Get a Dune, it's cheaper, and makes you feel even more shiny inside

Been following this thread from the start. Finally took the jump and got myself a fattie, loving it so far. Biggest surprise is how quick it goes. Had it knocking on 50mph downhill and I'm already beating the times I've made on my 150mm trail bike.

Just need to set it up tubeless because the punctures are bloody annoying. Seem to get one every ride at the moment.

What one did you get Painey?

Yeah I'm not keen to go back to tubes myself so will attempt to go tubeless myself soon - have just read of enough issues with sealing these cheaper rims to keep me from diving right in.

Will probably attempt ghetto 24" tubeless as it seems most reliable system, albeit the heavier option.

Fitted the JJ i purchased from Northwind today! Blew straight up tubeless with no faff at all! Result! beaded perfectly and has shed some weight from the old girl too! Bonus.

Vee Rubber Vee8 folders are £19.99 in the CRC sale. Fairly mixed reviews, seems like they could be ok for SDW type trails. Anyone used them?

I've got a pair, hey effectively came free with Fatty's at one point with one of on-ones part clearing builds and a voucher code.

They're faster than floaters, and a bit lighter, but not in the same ballpark for grip. They do make you feel like Valentino Rossi on the road though! As I run tubeless I've not re-fitted them as it would be more faff thn they're worth. As you say though, probably good for summer bridleway riding or you live somewhere that doesn't tend to turn t loose dust when it's dry. If I trashed a floater I might put one on the rear.

Yeah I'm not keen to go back to tubes myself so will attempt to go tubeless myself soon - have just read of enough issues with sealing these cheaper rims to keep me from diving right in.

Will probably attempt ghetto 24" tubeless as it seems most reliable system, albeit the heavier option.

Split 20" or 24" tube, cut a ~70mm strip out of an old camping mat to fill the rim, and bobs yer uncle. Also check the OEM rim strips, I saved almost as much weight ditching those for 3M tape as going tubeless itself!

slimjim78 - Member

Yeah I'm not keen to go back to tubes myself so will attempt to go tubeless myself soon - have just read of enough issues with sealing these cheaper rims to keep me from diving right in.

It took some experimenting but I've got 2 different variants on mine and they both work really well. I ditched the tubes- which did work well, with foam- and now I have on one end, the rim taped then foam over that to bulk up the rim bed, then plastic wrap over that to make it airtight. Works a charm but a pain to change tyres as it tends to mess up the wrap.

On the other, which I slightly prefer, I got some 80mm pvc tape- basically monster electric tape, I think it's for floor marking in factories and the like. So it's rim tape, then foam again, but instead of the plastic wrap the entire rim bed's taped over to make it airtight. Works better than the plastic so far just because it's durable, I've switched tyres a couple of times and it's been fine.

Oh, car valves or maybe motorbike valves on both, just because it's drilled for schrader (I did try the big fat presta valves I have but they didn't work- the rim was too thin so the lockring didn't bottom out)

They both weigh within a couple of grams of each other. It's a faff to get it working but once it works both versions seem grand. I've only used a few tyres on it- some JJs, a Bud and a Minion- but they've all gone up pretty easily and stayed up.

I can't get my head around the requirement for the foam layer. Can you explain why it's needed to build the rim bed up? If the rim is airtight, it's airtight, right?
So the tyre 'should' inflate onto the bead if given a sufficient puff off air?
In my mind, I'm guessing that the foam mearly acts as an air volume reducer in order to bring down the required amount of initial air to seat the tyre.. Is that right?

In other words, is it not possible to seal the rim with several layers of that heavy duty PVC tape, and then blow the tyre onto the rim?
I guess the risk is loosing the tyre off the rim when on the trail, and not having means to get it reinflated onto the rim?

Just air gaps really- the rim bed is big and the tyres have lots of movement and curl in them so without the foam you can have such a big gap between tyre and rim, that there's no chance it's going on. (you're only foaming the middle btw, the beads only have tape/wrap on them, the way I do it). And the tyre's air volume is 4-5 times the size of a normal tyre too so every pump has less effect.

No chance it's going back on trailside, regardless, ime, tube job. But then I've never had much luck fitting a normal tubeless tyre with anything less than a trackpump either

Zippy- yes, I too find Floaters tend to wander about a bit on soft mud; not too bad on the flat, awful on 'some' downhills. Seems to depend on the character of the mud. Minion FBF is much less prone to this, quite noticeable that it is better at staying pointed straight ahead.
Have been unsuccessful so far in getting the FBF to work with an On-one rim, so may have to bite the bullet and buy a replacement rim as well. The Minion has still not remained seated correctly at the lower pressures that I'm liking to use.

What Northwind said, without the foam (or pallet wrap) the tyre is just floating around in the middle of the rim with a big (5mm) gap all round, no chance of getting it up without a compressor, and if it did, it may peel off under heavy cornering (AKA burping).

With foam you mimic the inside wall of a narrower rim, which fatties don't have or we'd be talking about rims 3x heavier than Stans Flows as well as 3x wider. Which makes them easier to inflate, and also maintains a bit of a seal when they do burp.

The proper solution is a £350 set of double walled carbon rims from light bike, but more than the Dune's worth by the time you add hubs!

Highlandman are you struggling due to tubeless ?

I worked on the logic with my OOF that yes the wheels were goign to cost more than the bike (well nearly) but I was enjoyign the fat bike so much the chances would be that i would upgrade to a better frame and swap the kit over. I am now waiting for the Smokestone Henderson to be launched by Slam. Then will swap my kit over. Only a couple more weeks to wait!

Henderson looks good, what's the pricing likely to be?

What one did you get Painey?

I got a Cube Nutrail second hand. I was waiting for the large Dune to come into stock but factored that once I'd added the upgrades it'd be getting on for £1k. I saw the cube going for less than that and as the seller was close to where I work went and had a look.

Absolutely loving the way it rides. This might sound odd but I find it a lot easier to manual/wheelie than other bikes I own. That said I'm rubbish at that kind of stuff.

[url= http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/using-stretch-wrap-tubeless-mulefut-rims-floater-larry-3-8-tires-pictures-978927.html ]Packing wrap method with pics.[/url]
Just make sure it is properly tight and you wont have any problems, and if you want to swap tyres, it takes less than 10mins to re-wrap the rim and throw a tyre on.

Or... [url= http://fattystripper.com ]fatty strippers[/url].

Ok, will try ghetto and if no joy the fatty stripper stuff looks promising.

easier to manual/wheelie than other bikes I own.

100%!! No-one told me that fatty tyres are essentially wheelie cushions! 10mins into my first ride i was promptly pulling my best wheelies for, well, forever!
Unfortunately I took it a bit too far at the park and landed straight on my monkey bone - writhed in agony for a while whilst the local yoofs laughed at my plight.
Still, nothing a day's best rest and a bunch of co-drydamol can't fix.

I find you have to take it a bit easy on the Dune, dial it back a notch - it can be soooo fast, turns you into a right hoolie, all of a sudden you're arriving into scenarios much quicker than you would on skinny tyres. I find I have to think more about slowing down near walkers, dogs, round blind corners than on my other bikes, don't want to hurt anyone or generate ill feeling, especially when the comedy looks tend to have the opposite effect with those you meet.

I'm considering buying a Calibre Dune, I was wondering if anyone had changed the green strip that's in the wheels to yellow or any other colour? Do you know what kind of tape and thickness would be required?

I think Northwind has changed his. should be straight forward to do, I've never searched but there's probably a plethora of colours/widths to choose from

Yeah, I replaced mine with 75mm PVC tape off ebay (for added yellow).

Think it was this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WIDE-HEAVY-DUTY-PVC-TAPE-75MM-x-33M-BUILDER-INSULATION-ELECTRICIAN-FIXING-YELLOW-/360702791403?hash=item53fb8fceeb:g:BZAAAMXQVhFR8YUh

Basically one wrap sticky side "out" and unsticky side against the rim, stretched just a wee bit to get it nice and tight. Then a second wrap other way round (so sticky to sticky) to overlay that. Becuase the first wrap's stretched, it's a little narrower, the second wrap should fully cover it and stick it to the rim, avoiding any exposed sticky.

I wasn't sure if that'd be strong enough but it's been fine. Bulges nicely through the cutouts and weighs nowt.