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Looking at the Winter Olympics Snowboarding or ski cross seem to be really popular for viewer and have freshened the view of skiing snowboarding to the younger wider world.
I was wondering if we scrapped XC from the Olympics as its too similar to the road disciplines and put DH or Enduro in would it be better for the sport? So bigger jumps, drops no Lycra......
XC is tough, I'm not belittling it at all but from a viewing public point of view it lacks the wow of the other MTB disciplines.
It's already got BMX racing for the big jumps & **** that! factor
True, it a bit like ski or board cross!
4X it should be then surely?
Thing with 4x is it's too similar to BMX isn't it, it's on a short track etc.
XC is an established, recognised format. internationally it's still very popular and TBH what's so terrible about the unwashed masses watching a bit of XC? It's still worth seeing...
DH and Enduro are actually still quite niche in the wider world of cycling.
I suppose it all depends on what you think the Olympics is for...
Olympic criteria are that pretty much all the events have to be held in or around the host city (which these days has to of "capital city" status). So personally yes Enduro or DH would be more interesting but in practical terms I doubt it would work with Olympic bidding rules.
Now 4X or parallel slalom could be interesting and easier to do.
Overall I woukd be tempted to can MTB from the Olympics all together
No.
Are you basing your thoughts on the similarity to road disciplines on yesterday's race? They don't usually fall off that much. As already mentioned above, DH etc. is more similar to BMX than XC is to road racing. I'm also less than convinced about how much wow factor there would be for the general public watching a time trial rather than a head to head race.
DH etc. is more similar to BMX than XC is to road racing
How did you come to that conclusion? I'd say it was the other way round.
I'm also less than convinced about how much wow factor there would be for the general public watching a time trial rather than a head to head race.
Yeah but the Winter Olympics is full of that kind of thing. Ski-ing, luge, Bob etc, all timed runs. I think DH would be more interesting for joe public, but as has been said above, the location would need to be suitable for every olympics to be able to cater for it.
DH etc. is more similar to BMX than XC is to road racing
How did you come to that conclusion? I'd say it was the other way round.
DH & BMX are more of a spectacle, road & XC are a bit more obviously fitness than madskilz based.
DH & BMX are more of a spectacle, road & XC are a bit more obviously fitness than madskilz based.
I agree with that, but I still wouldn't say DH is closer to BMX than XC is to road racing. If anything, I'd say XC is closer to road racing as it has the same mass start format, whereas BMX starts are more akin to track running. DH is one person against the clock. I appreciate you do have time trials in BMX, but these are the precursor to the main events.
To answer the OP: I think DH would be a welcome addition to the Olympics, but I don't think it should be at the expense of the XC. The limiting logistical factor for DH is having a relatively nearby hill large enough (~500m) .
Enduro in the olympics? Has to be a troll thread.
Given the increasing technicality of the courses and short course format, XC has virtually nothing in common with the road race.
Given how far plenty of events are from a host city (sailing etc) anything goes, urban dh would be awesome.
When Phelps was winning all the medals they asked Michael Johnson if he was the greatest Olympian, Johnson reckoned that if he could have done the 100m forwards, backwards, hopping and on his hands he would have more medals.so let's not get rid of the only mtb event for another.
TBH getting away from the false impression that fitness is all, is as much about track design and reporting rather than the sport- simple first step is getting someone in the commentary booth who won't just drone on about fitness and effort and tiredness and who can inspire on technicality and Mad Skillz.
The reality is that race coverage always wants to cover the leaders though so that means lots of footage of riding up hills obsessing about "he's closed by 1 second" TBH it's like american football, a sport best watched in highlights.
No, the road race was good I thought, I'm thinking of the event from a non MTBer POV. Not a troll I'm trying to think of a more entertaining view for joe public, is all. I'd rather watch a EWS or World Cup DH than the XC.
XC has virtually nothing in common with the road race.
Other than both involve riding bikes
Other than both requiring a high level of cardio and endurance fitness
Other than both being mass start events
Other than both requiring the ability to climb well
Other than both requiring the ability to descend fast
Other than a lot of xc riders train on the road
Other than both requiring tactical awareness
No, nothing in common.
They could lose the track cycling and add DH, enduro, 4x, , mountain marathon, cyclocross and invent a few more for good luck, and they would all be more interesting than riding round in tiny circles.
Other than both requiring tactical awareness
I am not so sure of the tactical awareness of xc, I think Absalon and Schurter just go as hard as they can from the gun until one of them wins.
A summer mountain Olympics, that would be good...
I am not so sure of the tactical awareness of xc, I think Absalon and Schurter just go as hard as they can from the gun until one of them wins.
That's a tactic, isn't it? 
DH would make a marvellous Olympic sport and is pretty much ready to go IMO. Not urban though, too dangerous and the top riders would hate it.
Rio could certainly have come up with a cracking track, looking at the local topography.
Good chance of a GB 1-2-3 in the women's.
Enduro - no chance guv.
They could lose the track cycling
You are probably just being provocative, but track cycling makes fantastic TV so I wouldn't hold your breath.
[quote=chakaping ]Rio could certainly have come up with a cracking track, looking at the local topography.
How about London?
Good chance of a GB 1-2-3 in the women's.
and right there you have the reason for XC rather than DH - the global participation is far higher in XC. I think a lot of people are seeing this from a UK perspective only - XC is a lot bigger in other countries.
Enduro - no chance guv.
Why? Would make a great 2 day event. For the Olympic version of dh check out the world's feed in Val d' sole.
How about London?
The sailing was in the solent etc could quite easily do bpw etc. Was in Park city last year, the actual venue for the salt lake city winter Olympics.
[quote=Wookster ]No, the road race was good I thought, I'm thinking of the event from a non MTBer POV. Not a troll I'm trying to think of a more entertaining view for joe public, is all. I'd rather watch a EWS or World Cup DH than the XC.
I'm not sure you are escaping the MTBer POV - I don't think the general public would share your opinions. To the average Joe, XC is plenty exciting enough from a technical perspective, but also has the head to head element.
As always some people are probably underestimating the tech demands of XC racing, which is what makes it so different from road and means a road rider can't just switch over (not even somebody as skilled as Sagan - if he wins I'll eat my hat, but I'm fairly sure my hats are safe). Sure they train on the road, but that's not the same thing at all. I have the privilege of (kind of) knowing a couple of the UK's best riders, one who's won internationally at XC is ridiculously good on the tech stuff, one who's won internationally at DH and Enduro is incredibly fit and trains on the road.
Why? Would make a great 2 day event.
There hasn't been any successful live TV coverage of enduro yet, has there?
Theoretically it'd make a great event but it'd be massively expensive to cover and the sport's too immature IMO, with the EWS only a few years old.
and right there you have the reason for XC rather than DH - the global participation is far higher in XC. I think a lot of people are seeing this from a UK perspective only - XC is a lot bigger in other countries.
I totally agree XC should be the primary MTB event, if only because of depth of participation.
But it's hardly like DH stars are household names in the UK but not elsewhere, it's just as niche here as in other countries.
My point is that DH makes really great viewing, it's been shown that it can be produced into a concise TV-friendly package and in spite of your comment - actually has decent international appeal and participation.
I think the Red Bull TV coverage of the xc this year has been far better then the dh. For the general public, with only a limited understanding of cycling, seeing competitors riding against each other rather than one after another going down a hill is more interesting. It is also difficult to gauge on TV for those who haven't tried it just how hard riding down a technical section is.
aracer - MemberHow about London?
Prague's bid had their sailing events 200km away (Prague being landlocked), and "London"'s sailing was down at Portsmouth IIRC. It's perfectly normal for venues to be spread away from the host city.
The venue thing is a massive barrier. Yes, the sailing was in the Solent, but it's a full suite of events which couldn't plausibly be held elsewhere.
I agree with aracer that the general public wouldn't be any more interested in DH or Enduro (2 days, most of which is spent not actually competing, WTF?!).
There hasn't been any successful live TV coverage of enduro yet, has there?
Not much successful coverage of lawn bowls or some other sports. Coverage shouldn't be the reason. Problem as I posted above is to get a new cycling event the plan is to drop an existing one. Why not expand cycling at the expense of golf tennis and running round in circles
(2 days, most of which is spent not actually competing, WTF?!).
As I said golf
As I said golf
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Coverage shouldn't be the reason
But it is. Like it or not.
How about London?
I think we had this chat back in 2012 too.
Basically if DH was "in" then South Wales would have been a perfectly acceptable venue.
Most countries probably have decent-sized hills closer to the host city. Tokyo is up next and they wouldn't have any bother.
True but bin golf and add something different, an event where the top people don't want to attend! The ews coverage is improving and going well, it's a format that would work better for a world event than dh, the skills needed for dh and the tracks to test the best riders preclude a lot of nations. Enduro is more accessible. I'd love to see more mtb in the Olympics and the 3.current world series level events could all work especially if people stopped playing them off against each other. It's like pursuit vs team pursuit vs Madison vs Road race vs tt
The venue thing is a massive barrier. Yes, the sailing was in the Solent, but it's a full suite of events which couldn't plausibly be held elsewhere.
Interesting point.
DH & XC would surely be staged at the same venue - perhaps with BMX.
If the host city didn't have a suitable venue nearby, it could "sell" the events to a partner area - thus helping with the enormous cost of hosting the games.
imo xc racing is everything that is bad about mtb's. it ruined what bikes looked like for years and the sooner it is forgotten the better
If downhill took itself more seriously, then I reckon it'd be a good Olympic sport. At the moment, it just seems a bit amateurish when compared to other Time Trial disciplines like the Road TT etc. Why are they still wearing pyjamas to race in FFS?
I don't really know what Enduro is, but it sounds bloody boring.
XC is the only proper MTB racing discipline (apart from 4X, which used to be awesome but I thought they'd got rid of it?)
Good chance of a GB 1-2-3 in the women's
More chance of UK cycling destroying downhill potential for generations.
If downhill took itself more seriously, then I reckon it'd be a good Olympic sport
I don't really know what Enduro is, but it sounds bloody boring.
FFS do you know anything about the sport 🙄
Do you even ride bro?
FFS do you know anything about the sport
It's a bit after my time. I know it's downhill with bits of uphill, but the uphill isn't timed or something (that sounds very "athletic").
I'd keep non-xc mountain biking out of the olympics, don't want the sport tainted by drug cheats and corruption.
davidtaylforth - MemberIt's a bit after my time. I know it's downhill with bits of uphill, but the uphill isn't timed or something (that sounds very "athletic").
Because of course the timed uphills are a key part of downhill 😆
@mikey74:
XC is a 90 min format, does not require the same high endurance required for a 230km road race.
Road does not necessarily require strong climbing, recall London Olympics, course was flat enough team GB rode for Cav. Likewise with descending, not all courses require decending skill.
XC doesn't require tactical awareness, its a war of attrition, and often boils down to man vs course.
I think what you really are trying to say is they both wear lycra and require pedalling, so therefore viewed through enduro blinkers are identical.
I'm not particularly an XC racing fan but I appreciate the skill, fitness and commitment of the racers.
It's a little annoying that what is considered 'mountain biking' is so far from what most of us do and enjoy, and at times it's very annoying that BC and everyone else in officialdom like to pretend that no other forms of mountain biking exist as anything other than leisure activities with consequent effects on funding, but the flip side of that is that they aren't messing with 'our' sport.
There is value in having a sport with everyman grassroots accessibility. Large national series almost automatically exclude many people who can't make the time and financial commitments - while it was great on many levels you could equally argue that the UKGE scene was almost as removed from reality as the top levels of BC sponsored XC and the Olympic events.
I'm not really sure that the present state of affairs isn't really a bad thing in that light.
I don't get why becoming an olympic sport is such a good thing?
Surfing has been confirmed for 2020 & they're all going on about how great it is, but why?
jambalaya - Member
Olympic criteria are that pretty much all the events have to be held in or around the host city (which these days has to of "capital city" status). So personally yes Enduro or DH would be more interesting but in practical terms I doubt it would work with Olympic bidding rules.
I don't think that works as an excuse given that they have now added surfing which isn't noted for being the easiest event to hold close to many cities, let alone capital cities.
It's a bit after my time. I know it's downhill with bits of uphill, but the uphill isn't timed or something (that sounds very "athletic").
Your trolls are getting lazy, maybe it's time to talk about long travel HTs?
[quote=vincienup ]It's a little annoying that what is considered 'mountain biking' is so far from what most of us do and enjoy, and at times it's very annoying that BC and everyone else in officialdom like to pretend that no other forms of mountain biking exist as anything other than leisure activities with consequent effects on funding, but the flip side of that is that they aren't messing with 'our' sport.
What most of you do and enjoy is a leisure activity, not a sport. BC don't pretend to be anything other than a racing organisation, a lot of their funding is dependent on Olympic performance, so it's not really any surprise where they spend it - a lot of the money is ringfenced so they have no choice.
There is value in having a sport with everyman grassroots accessibility. Large national series almost automatically exclude many people who can't make the time and financial commitments
Still plenty of XC racing below national level. Now involved with a club which does a lot of work on junior development for XC racing (also plenty of senior involvement) and lots of racing for them at a more local level.
Nah, 2 problems are really apparent with DH
1. telly flattens out the hill too much.
2. It doesn't really appear to be "hard" enough. The summer Olympics are all about athleticism, you can hear the average punter "what, not even pedalling?...just rolling downhill?...pfft, I could do that"
[quote="vincienup"]It's a little annoying that what is considered 'mountain biking' is so far from what most of us do and enjoy,Sorry to disappoint. But what the vast majority of leisure/hobby/sport mtbers do across the UK and the rest of the world has far more in common with XCO than DH or Enduro.
Despite Enduro/trail bikes being the latest "thing".
PrinceJohn - Member
I don't get why becoming an olympic sport is such a good thing?
Funding.
BC puts loads of time and resource into track but virtually nothing into cyclocross for example, despite the latter being far more popular (in terms of participant numbers) and far more accessible. Why? Because track qualifies for UK Sport funding on the basis of being an Olympic discipline. More medals more money.
vincienup - Member
It's a little annoying that what is considered 'mountain biking' is so far from what most of us do and enjoy
Eating flapjacks and comparing tyres? 😀
imo xc racing is everything that is bad about mtb's. it ruined what bikes looked like for years and the sooner it is forgotten the better
Each to their own, I suppose.
Joe Public watches road racing and goes out and buys a road bike and their fvourite bit of SKY kit.
Joe Public watches xc racing and goes out and buys a xc bike.
Joe Public watches DH, spends six months trying to work out which bike, helmet, body armour, shoes, pyjamas to buy, gives up and buys another KFC for dinner. They count their blessings as they hand't realised how mental DH courses really are and buy a xc bike because it's a lot cheaper, safer and family friendly.
How much are sports influenced by the manufacturers?
Now a megavalanche mixed with elimination would be cool. 8)
DH should be an Olympic sport, any average couch potato can see it takes more skill and athleticism than equestrian crap.
Shouldn't be at the expense of XC, like WTH?
Schurter would destroy Gwin on a XCO technical descent if they were both on XC bikes.
The sailing was in the solent etc could quite easily do bpw etc. Was in Park city last year, the actual venue for the salt lake city winter Olympics.
The Solent?!!! 👿
Get in the ****ing sea!
That. And more of that. DH and Enduro are but a fly-speck in the consciousness of most leisure cyclists. Once again, STW Forumites need to stop viewing the cycling world through a narrow lens.ghostlymachine - Member
Sorry to disappoint. But what the vast majority of leisure/hobby/sport mtbers do across the UK and the rest of the world has far more in common with XCO than DH or Enduro.
Enduro wouldn't be hugely watchable, and veeery looong, but DH would be a massive improvement on XC. The stiffs would never go for it though, the UCI would shit a brick.
Schurter would destroy Gwin on a XCO technical descent if they were both on XC bikes.
I'd bet the farm he wouldn't.
XC in before cyclocross seems crazy, given the heritage of the two disciplines, and CX being a proven spectator sport. Seems unlikely now that you could have both.
You do need a bit of mud to really bring out the best in cross - last I heard it was being pitched for the winter olympics (as a sport that is done in the winter months, rather than a snowsport per se).
imo xc racing is everything that is bad about mtb's. it ruined what bikes looked like for years and the sooner it is forgotten the better
It's a little annoying that what is considered 'mountain biking' is so far from what most of us do and enjoy, and at times it's very annoying that BC and everyone else in officialdom like to pretend that no other forms of mountain biking exist as anything other than leisure activities with consequent effects on funding, but the flip side of that is that they aren't messing with 'our' sport.
(+ others)
The average MTBer, and that includes the STAVAisters, stormtroopers and gnarrslayers on their #ENDURO 'rigs', have more in common with pony treking than they do with XC, let alone the EWS or DH type riding. The image in their head might be different, but most would probably cry if faced with a decent XC course (even if they could use their own bike!).
That said, that second quote could be read the other way, XC is far more technical than most trail centre black run stuff.
Lots of interesting stuff here, TBH I'm thinking what makes people ( non. MTBers) think wow....!!! For example the day after the Winter Olympics Boarder cross or ski cross it was talked about in the office.....less so super G or cross country skiing.
I was looking at it from a spectacle PoV. I agree that I didn't think of how XC Is much bigger in Europe etc but again I think for the non biker DH enduro type stages are better viewing?
I recognise the the techie sections on XCO are tough, but I'd fancy one of those more the the techie sections of a world class DH course....( clearly both would result in using my face as a brake!!) I'm not in any way saying it's easy I'm asking what's better telly?
Schurter would destroy Gwin on a XCO technical descent if they were both on XC bikes.
I really doubt it, love to see it but I'd put the house on Gwin!
and "London"'s sailing was down at Portsmouth IIRC
Weymouth. About twice as far from London.
DH would be great.
Currently stuck in Kenya with work, put the MSA DH on the projector in our crew room, Quite happily sat chilling my beans on my own. As people came in to grab a brew, they stayed, before I knew it the room was full and cheering Danny on to the win. It's dynamic and exciting, especially to those who don't follow it, be good to see it there but won't lose any sleep if it doesn't.
That said, that second quote could be read the other way, XC is far more technical than most trail centre black run stuff.
That's not true, but who cares? I can enjoy a blue trail centre ride as much as a black DH run. Still eff all to do with the fact that DH is FAR more exciting to watch.
I guess you don't do much world class (or world cup) xc riding then?
The old "racing round a field" died on its arse about 10 years ago, certainly did in Europe/US.
I guess you don't do much world class (or world cup) xc riding then?
Yeah great point......because you have to compete at that level to see the tracks they ride don't you.
This (london olympics final descent);
[img]
[/img]Isn't beyond any of us, certainly when you look at the line they all took. It's a blue.
That's Beijing. 8 years ago. Things change.
My apologies;
[img] 
[/img]
Don't look like times have changed that much.
Besides it doesn't matter, DH is still the far more exciting sport for spectators. It just is, and I have no dog in this race. I just ride mountain bikes with no specific purpose other than the enjoyment of it.
Isn't beyond any of us, certainly when you look at the line they all took. It's a blue.
I'd put good money on it being beyond quite a few, whilst redlining, on a full on XC race bike.
Maybe if they did an urban DH race through the favellas it'd be good to watch.
Isn't beyond any of us, certainly when you look at the line they all took. It's a blue.
DH blue perhaps. It would have half the people at Swinley in ambulances if they came across that 😆 (being fair there is only one rock in Swinley, or clump of couple of rocks 😛 ).
Anyway on the original post, I can see a comparison with Winter Olympics in that downhill skiing is a similar spectacle to downhill mountain biking for the viewer. Start gate, cameras following a racer down each section, goes out of view at points, occasional jumps, spectators clustered at the side whistling and ringing cow bells.
It's just the Winter Olympics is a bit more specialist with different audience with events often being the main event in the sport. Summer Olympics is to me all about showing off the elite, raising and spending money to show off the host nation and city, than it is about competition and spectacle. In many events they may as well just parade about. The main event in many of the sports over the year or four years is not generally the Olympics (e.g Wimbledon or the Opens for tennis. TdF etc for road cycling). Exception is the athletics.
This:
Vs
This:
There is no two ways about it, niche or not, DH is far more dynamic and exciting to watch than XC and more importantly, for UK cycling, we have better DH athletes than we do XC, that's a fact. So at the very least, in terms of drawing in funding and support, BC pushing for DH to be included in the Olympics would be advantageous.
The average mtb'er is closer to XCO than DH , most common are hardtails then short travel full sus not an orange alpine; how many actually wear a full-face ?
Current XCO courses are tech enough, The faster you ride them and trying to gap a rider makes it more involving than riding round waiting at the top for your mates
DH is still the far more exciting sport for spectators. It just is, and I have no dog in this race.
It doesn't matter how many times you say it, it's still your opinion and not fact!
I don't really have a preference FWIW, neither translates well to television, but I think the time-trial nature of DH makes it feel very 'detached' and dull. The public wouldn't find it more interesting. Fact (I can do it too see).
It requires a certain topography which would necessitate a separate venue, which is a massive ball ache (speaking as someone involved with organising the Olympic rowing at Eton Dorney). The sailing comprison really doesn't stack up. To say "ah you could just put it 200 miles away, works for sailing" is totally missing the point.
Meh.
DH is difficult to watch and to film unless you have open courses, and even then is a succession of riders doing the same thing over and over again.
It's not great to watch unless you are a fan, and even then it gets a bit dull until the top three or four appear.
Sailing...now there's an exciting spectator sport.
Maybe just allow ebikes also...you can hear the commentary now ,
I've heard XC unicycle is in next time round...
I really don't see how anyone that watches both can claim DH is more dynamic to watch. You spend an hour watching the first 20 go just waiting for the top 5 to find out who wins.
The riders themselves are hidden behind full face helmet, goggles, pads and pyjamas. Not to mention that between poor camera coverage and time between runs you probably spend less than 50% of the time with no rider on screen.
Whereas XC is action right from the gun, riders sprinting shoulder to shoulder. You can watch the top guys literally sprinting up every short climb lap after lap. You can see the expressions on their faces, thighs bulging etc.
njee20 - MemberIt requires a certain topography which would necessitate a separate venue, which is a massive ball ache (speaking as someone involved with organising the Olympic rowing at Eton Dorney). The sailing comprison really doesn't stack up. To say "ah you could just put it 200 miles away, works for sailing" is totally missing the point.
Why?
Whereas XC is action right from the gun, riders sprinting shoulder to shoulder. You can watch the top guys literally sprinting up every short climb lap after lap. You can see the expressions on their faces, thighs bulging etc.
Road, BMX & track all do that. It's the "lap after lap" bit which bores. There again, F1 is very popular. I prefer WRC personally.
replace - no. as well as - yes.
[quote="wrecker"]It's the "lap after lap" bit which bores.you mean just like the rider after rider after rider format of DH? But less boring?
Like ski DH? Yes! I think that's great too!
Watching the splits, not really knowing who's winning until the very end. Great stuff!
Sounds like you should go and watch some time trials. 24hr events are good.