[Closed] Worst bike "improvements"

29er specific saddle.

Road bolt thrus with disc brakes make complete sense. Means the disc is always in the right place with no fuss.

Bigger MTB wheels make a significant difference where I live. I didn't run out and get them cos I thought I must have them, I ended up with them and realised how much better they were all on my own.

Try again.

Press fit BB's

Wheel sizes has gotta be up there, especially with STW proclaiming 27.5 ain't dead.

Press fit bb's for the win, I'll not go near one. Seen some great bikes and discount them on that alone.

Road bolt thrus with disc brakes make complete sense. Means the disc is always in the right place with no fuss.

As opposed to quick releases?

Press Fit BB's are a good call. I have two bikes with them  - one over 10 years old and on its original BB - and they've been fine for me personally, but seen so many issues with them and now the industry has seen the error of its ways.

Suspension, gears, disc brakes, freewheels pneumatic tyres, pedals, cranks...

Road bolt thrus with disc brakes make complete sense. Means the disc is always in the right place with no fuss.

As opposed to quick releases?

Yep. Seen loads of folk with squint wheels or wheels coming loose because the axle hasn't been correctly aligned in the dropout before the QR was tightened.

It wasn’t a huge problem with mountain bikes. It still isn’t on mine.

Boost is bollocks, though.

I like bolt through. Better solution, wheel can't fall out. There's a thread on here today about someone's wheel falling out, and my daughter's does too occasionally. Maybe it's a mystery issue with the QR design but it can't happen with bolt through.

Biggerer wheels.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with 26" wheels but a lot of gullible people fell for the marketing BS, which dragged the MTB scene in that direction.

All bikes should have bolt through axles.

I also still think 29ers genuinely added something well worth while.

Spoons.

a lot of gullible people fell for the marketing BS

I'm not convinced that's what happened. It felt like the entire industry pretty much took other options off the table.

Basing mountain bikes on bicycles rather than motocross bikes was the worst technical decision made. We seem to have to to where we should have started now.

Picking children’s bicycle wheels came with that initial cockup. Also now resolved.

Forgetting to include the motor was the last mistake...

All bikes should have bolt through axles.

I also still think 29ers genuinely added something well worth while.

Despite my previous statement, I agree with these statements.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with 26″ wheels but a lot of gullible people fell for the marketing BS, which dragged the MTB scene in that direction.

Yes.
And No.

I've a few mates that were 26er die-hards. Then got bikes with bigger wheels and realised how much better they were. Not gullible people mind, but people who know how to ride a bike, and what they want from it.

Myself, I had a 27.5 but ended up selling it to create some cash to buy my gravel bike. But have two 26er MTBs to do MTB duties. The Inbred SS I really enjoy riding. It's brilliant actually in a very simple way. The 26er FS I don't get along so well with, and certainly, whilst it is a more capable bike than I am a rider, I increasingly feel 'disadvantaged' compared to mates who have bigger wheels and, at least as importantly, more modern geometry.

So, not having tried a 29er, I can't speak directly from personal experience, but reckon the big wheel debate has pretty much been won, albeit modern geometry also being a key factor.

Interesting. I've ridden all wheel sizes bar 29+, I just don't feel any significant difference (albeit I accept tests show 29ers slightly faster, which is important to molgrips et Al, and those at the sharp end of racing).

Wheels falling out? FFS. What has happened to common sense?

E-bikes! On a planet that is constantly being educated that we use too much energy, they create ebikes, when people were perfectly happy before them.

I'm still fun at a party I promise haha😂

E-bikes! On a planet that is constantly being educated that we use too much energy, they create ebikes, when people were perfectly happy before them.

And the chemicals used for the batteries.....

Still don’t know anyone who uses 35mm bars

Always hated qr spindles - bolt through feels like coming home. Every bike should have them.

29er is perfect for most UK riding and even better for loads of other countries like large parts of usa.

Ebikes are or could be brilliant for commuting, not mention getting the older and less mobile out on bikes. For those worried about pollution they must be less polluting than any other uplift system.

So we are only on press fit BBS so far which are clearly rubbish.

I would add 12 speed.

Boost, definitely. Massive change for tiny, imperceptible benefits.

I’ve a few mates that were 26er die-hards. Then got bikes with bigger wheels and realised how much better they were.

Sure it wasnt the fact that the new bike was longe and slacker too. Trouble is it's almost impossible to compare eggs with eggs as 26er bikes with modern geometry dont exist. My mk10 liteville 301 is as close as you can get to modern geometry on a 26er and I love it. I'm not anti big wheels...I just think they should be incorporated into bike sizing. 29er makes total sense for XL giants. Would be nice to see 26er wheels on small frames for little people. Scaled sizing is another Liteville idea...clever those Germans

Internal cable routing

I’ve ridden all wheel sizes bar 29+, I just don’t feel any significant difference

Honestly, try a 29+ bike.
It does feel different, good different too 😉

Still love my 26" SS though.

Individual bike manufacturers getting funky like Giant with the overdrive headset.

U-brakes on early MTBs. They didn’t last long.

Whoever suggested ‘29er’ is ...wrong. So wrong. 29er is good. So good.

Still love my 26″ SS though.

Snap. Especially with 2.4s on.

Still don’t know anyone who uses 35mm bars

I do!

Bike came that way, I don’t see the point and now my light mount doesn’t fit.

Fox's 15mm front through axle effectively forcing RockShox to abandon their 20mm, which they're now having to try and make up for with Torque Caps. Back to 20mm front axles will be next..

1.5” steerers were a bit of a flash in the pan, I’d like to see a 1.5” / 35mm stem just for the sheer scale of the thing.

F

I skipped straight from 26 to 29 so would say 27.5".

But then I would, wouldn't I.lol

Spoons.

This needed applause.

26" bikes. Just an evolutionary dead end.

We should have gone straight from the pioneering men and women of the Rough stuff fellowship to the various flavours of 700c.

Instead we spent a wasted thirty years trying to make 26" work, driven by marketing kool-aid and poor manufacturing.

We're not quite there yet as we still have that daft 27.5" standard, but we're getting closer.

1.5” steerers were a bit of a flash in the pan, I’d like to see a 1.5” / 35mm stem just for the sheer scale of the thing.

1 1/8 steerer top and stem is one of my least favourite aesthetics on a MTB - looks so weeny, esp on a burly trail FS. 1.5 looked miles better, but as it was like five grams heavier than tapered it was obv totally unacceptable.

- ISIS bottom brackets

- Shimano dual control mtb brake/shift levers

Those Shimano mtb floppy lever brifter things.

Instead we spent a wasted thirty years trying to make 26″ work, driven by marketing kool-aid and poor manufacturing.

I'd refute this completely, not the least because there wasn't, until comparatively recently, anything to 'market' 26" wheels against. Unlike when eventually 29" and then 650b/27.5" were dreamt up and the marketing departments went to town, 26" was the "go to" size.

As for 'poor manufacturing' this is also, I'd suggest, complete rubbish. 26" wheels were made by all manner of quality of manufacturers and for frames built by all manner of quality of manufacturers, just as 650b/27.5" and 29" wheels are now. 'Poor manufacturing' may be responsible for the quality of a product but is unlikely to be responsible for retention of an old standard or move to a new standard. Indeed, given the maturity of 26" wheels as a standard, its arguable that the quality of even lower end rims etc is pretty good.

Still don’t know anyone who uses 35mm bars

I do. They've now discovered that Spank Vibrocore bars are very comfortable, which is definitely because of the revolutionary Vibrocore technology and has nowt to do with them being 31.8mm...

In terms of component changes, I'll offer up Shimano's new "inside routing" which is listed as a feature for their new 12 speed groupsets' brake callipers.

Essentially the hose attachment has moved to the opposite side of the calliper. Whilst previously (on the outboard side) the hose attachment sat directly over the seat stay/fork leg and ran straight to the hose braze-ons on, it now sits a good inch or so away (inboard) meaning that the hose has to be bent quite markedly to reach the braze-ons; looks messy too & doesn't appear to offer any benefits.

Silly wide handlebars. I used to ride 700 to 720 mm bars 15 years ago and often got comments about how wide they were. Then, a couple of years ago I borrowed a newish bike from a friend. It had 800 mm bars and I kept clipping trees. I figures that all the people raving about wide bars must know something and it was probably just a matter of getting used to them, so I bought some 800 mm bars to see, figuring that I could cut them down if need be. I tried them at 800 for a few rides and just kept hitting trees, so I cut 10 mm off each end and tried again. I eventually cut them down to 750 and they feel ok, but not really any better than the 720 mm bars on my old bike.

I first tried out 29er on a rigid bike (was riding rigid 26er a lot at the time). It made a huge difference.

29er was pretty much a niche rider pushed change, and with good reason, it's better in nearly every way. 27.5 is a bit pointless, was clearly used as a marketing gateway, and now we can't get stuff for our old 26ers so easily.

Boost though... Isn't a bad idea, but other solutions could give the same wheels strength/spoke tension benefits without changing hub standards (and with a small weight saving).

And road bike bolt through is essentially a solution to people that can't use a QR properly.

In terms of stuff I've bought into... Bar ends? (although they were useful back when bars were tiny) Really weird shaped tubes? (see the latest Specialized full sus where they're making a feature out of having round tubes!)

Most things in the cycling world, be it road or mtb, have evolved quite well I'd say. It's more about human nature rejecting change or the initial release of something that will be good but needs work - 29" wheels and the geometry that gets the best out of it feel and function wise for example.

Wider bars work on some bikes. I have always found 730mm to be my sweet spot, then got a new bike on which they felt uncomfortably narrow. Went to 780mm on that bike alone and they feel spot-on.

So I guess in general it is horses for courses and most products are better than their previous ilks.

If I had to pick one, I'd probably go with press fit bottom brackets.

Boost axles and 35mm bars (I have both on my newest bike!)

MTBs should have started with bigger wheels and the geometry more like MX bikes and never headed towards road bikes but at least we’re in roughly the right place now.

Instead we spent a wasted thirty years trying to make 26″ work,

This has to be a troll....are your for real?

MTB became a hugely successful market from nothing on 26", HTF do you explain that, it's as if the bikes were unrideable according to you.

Well I guess there's plenty that eat up the marketing BS...

Yes, anyone who finds real benefits from a "pointless change" has just been fooled by the marketing teams.

We had 26" wheels because it was hard to make light strong 29" wheels, not because they are intrinsically a better size.

Yes, anyone who finds real benefits from a “pointless change” has just been fooled by the marketing teams.

Choice-supportive bias is a thing too.

We had 26″ wheels because it was hard to make light strong 29″ wheels, not because they are intrinsically a better size.

That isn't the same as this though is it?

26″ bikes. Just an evolutionary dead end.

We should have gone straight from the pioneering men and women of the Rough stuff fellowship to the various flavours of 700c.

Instead we spent a wasted thirty years trying to make 26″ work, driven by marketing kool-aid and poor manufacturing.

Materials technology changed, which led to the ability to build stronger, big wheels (and lighter, but just as strong, 26" wheels). This isn't/wasn't as a result of "marketing kool-aid" or "poor manufacturing", but as a result of new material/construction technologies becoming available at a price that made them accessible to bicycle component manufacturers.

“We had 26″ wheels because it was hard to make light strong 29″ wheels, not because they are intrinsically a better size.”

I thought we had 26” wheels because fat tyres were already available in that size and tyres are the only part of a MTB that cannot be made without tooling a mould, which is very expensive.

I thought we had 26” wheels because fat tyres were already available in that size and tyres are the only part of a MTB that cannot be made without tooling a mould, which is very expensive.

Could also be right!

I’d refute this completely, not the least because there wasn’t, until comparatively recently, anything to ‘market’ 26″ wheels against. Unlike when eventually 29″ and then 650b/27.5″ were dreamt up and the marketing departments went to town, 26″ was the “go to” size.

As for ‘poor manufacturing’ this is also, I’d suggest, complete rubbish. 26″ wheels were made by all manner of quality of manufacturers and for frames built by all manner of quality of manufacturers, just as 650b/27.5″ and 29″ wheels are now. ‘Poor manufacturing’ may be responsible for the quality of a product but is unlikely to be responsible for retention of an old standard or move to a new standard. Indeed, given the maturity of 26″ wheels as a standard, its arguable that the quality of even lower end rims etc is pretty good.

Yep. 650B can **** [i]right[/i] off. I haven't tried 29" yet, I am curious though, I'll admit that, but 650B is as cynical as it gets.

Road: bolt through axles

That's probably the best thing to have happened in recent times.

Interesting (on page 1, from yesterday) about road bolt through/QR - I guess bolt through has eliminated user error - I've never had a road or mtb wheel come loose. My current gravel bike still has QR and the brakes are always aligned.
Weird that OP would start a thread about "MTB", realise one of his issues is road and change the title . LoLz.
Agree that 35mm bars are completely unnecessary for normal riders - as are 203mm rotors, 800mm bars - but them pros what ride a bit betterer and faster and are more sensitive to their set up...
My bike came with 35mm bars and can't say it's any different for me.
Jr's new Remedy has Boost, apparently. That's a bleedin nonsense that is. Or does it mean he can run 2.5 tyres without any rubbing. Does he need 2.5" tyres??!

As for the actual worst - I'd say it's cassettes. They used to be £20-£30 - now in the £100s! Of course, they work and allow us to be rid of the hideous left hand shifter... but why such crazy money? (Buy Sunrace they say! Which bloody ones?!)

26" wheels. Yes, tyres, but also BITD box section rims were rare, nowadays you get them on mid range kids bikes. This enables a much stronger wheel build and by extension larger diameter wheels (along with ever lower spoke counts).

We had 26″ wheels because it was hard to make light strong 29″ wheels, not because they are intrinsically a better size.

As above, materials.

29 is fine. Because of all those, inefficient space wasting tall people. 🙂

650b is, and will always remain a cycnical pile of toss foisted on us by shysters.

See also 35mm bars etc.

Bolt through I'm undecided on, but it has a lot of advantages.

Choice-supportive bias is a thing too.

Yeah, and that's probably happening in some cases, but dismissing 29" wheels for example as marketing BS is silly. Rider size seems to be a factor in whether they work for you but no one's going to suggest XL frames are marketing BS because they ride a small.

Bikes with 35mm bars. Can't use nice stem I already have.

Boost. Makes reusing other hubs a pain.

I've had 26"(Yeti 5, Cotic Soul), 27.5" (5010) and 29" (Jeffsy) wheels. All were good bikes but given a straight choice I'd go 29 now.

I thought we had 26” wheels because fat tyres were already available in that size and tyres are the only part of a MTB that cannot be made without tooling a mould, which is very expensive.

Excactly. There was a pre-existing fat knobbly tyre - made by Nokian for riding in the snow in Finland. The tyres are the only bit you can't bodge/build/ prototype yourself. Early MTB wheel builders were cutting and re-rolling lightweight 700c rims to use with an existing tyre. You can easily change the rim to suit the tyre, you can't change a tyre to suit the rim.

So from that early instance as frames and ancillary bits for MTB moved from bodges and self-builds to production the 26" wheel was the template. It wasn't the result of exhaustive research and finite element analysis.

There was nothing empirically correct about that size of wheel or any other and theres no reason to use one size of wheel across all the realms of cycling that MTB has evolved into, or on all the sizes of bike.

As a 6'6" ride bigger wheels couldn't come soon enough. (I'm waiting for a diversification of wheels sizes to happening for road bikes too)

There is just as much refusing to see a benefit when it is there as there is believing there is a benefit when there isn't.

For everyone who perceives a benefit just because they believe in it there is someone who won't acknowledge a benefit no matter the objective evidence.

Humans are rubbish at rational decisions. Although it seems we are all agreed on the push fit bottom bracket though I suppose that can also be looked at in two ways, on the one hand we pay less than we would for  the same bike with an external bottom bracket or on the other hand the bike company makes more money by saving on it's manufacturing costs which it doesn't pass on.

"Agree that 35mm bars are completely unnecessary for normal riders – as are 203mm rotors, 800mm bars – but them pros what ride a bit betterer and faster and are more sensitive to their set up…"

200mm+ rotors make a lot of sense for bigger wheels and heavier riders, especially brake draggers on uplift days - we mincers need the heat dissipation! And 800mm bars do feel nice if you're tall and the local trees aren't too tightly packed - MX bikes have had 800mm bars for years.

As for the actual worst – I’d say it’s cassettes.

I'm keen to know why the best research and development minds in cycling have taken 20 years to move from 7 cogs to 12 cogs by tentatively adding one cog at a time. (the whole cycling fraternity going to existential melt down about nothing being wrong with the old cogs each time could be a reason of course)

35mm bars, I remember Renthal's take on them - they don't allow us to make the bar/stem combo any lighter for a given strength or desired stiffness, but people are asking for them so we're making them.

Definitely filed under pile of toss, but who knows when all bars will go that way (hopefully never whilst there's some common sense involved).

There is just as much refusing to see a benefit when it is there as there is believing there is a benefit when there isn’t.

I remember when this forum was just as angry about disk brakes as it is now about e-bike

Internal rear brake routing is just soooooooo pointless
Short seat tubes on XL frames. noooooooo, that's just a new size for small people

27.5 is the best wheelsize we have currently unless you are the size of a child or ride around screaming Stravaaaaa :o)

Boost, i mean whats wrong with just offsetting the dropouts? You could make a fork with a 5mm step in each dropout and achieve the same width without introducing a new standard. Same at the back, just offset the rear wheel 6mm. Re dishing takes 10 minutes, no new wheel needed.

Pressfit bbs were bad, just another interface to creak with no advantages. BB30 was unnecessary for stiffness but the integrated bearings certainly save some weight and seem to work.

Wheels falling out? FFS. What has happened to common sense?

Ive landed (crashed) hard enough to pull the qr out of alignment. I still have qr's out of inertia but i dont think they're the best option for front axles by a long way. For the rear, i dont think we needed bolt through on hardtails, but probably did on FS bikes. It is a shame that the more niche brands abandoned 135mm QR. I really dont see the advantage on a Cotic, On One, Stanton etc. Last proved it was perfectly possible to make a modern hardtail with a qr rear hub.

Dropping quill stems in favour of threadless headsets on road bikes.

cartridge fit bearings instead of cup and cone.

no one’s going to suggest XL frames are marketing BS because they ride a small.

Are you new here?

I got to wondering yesterday whether in 10 years time the forum will be full of "How on earth did we manage to ride those things? Long, low slack, ponderous, thank goodness we've now got lively bikes with radical 70 degree head angles and the new 559b wheels that make tight twisty singletrack so much fun"

Disclaimer: this while riding my Mk1 Cotic Soul with brand new Purgatory 2.3 tyres. It took a bit of getting used to, but once I'd got my head round it, it were reet good.

Alloy spoke nipples.

Alloy spoke nipples.

We have a winner!

Bullshit to 29ers not happening because of materials/engineering...alloys are no different today and an extra 10% diameter doesn't make the rim/wheel suddenly dramatically weaker. Gary Fisher was the first proponent iirc and it was purely about tire availability.

And I'm not saying there's no benefit (I've already said I accept that...duh), but molgrips and others' "life changing"? As if!

Weird that OP would start a thread about “MTB”, realise one of his issues is road and change the title . LoLz

Omg person edits thread title what a complete idiot lol!!!!!

Alloy brake discs?

Press-fit BBs get my vote. I bought a Hope PF replacement BB because I thoroughly despise press-fit only to find I can't get cranks to go with them. Still on back-order with Hope.

boost. utterly pointless but a massive pain in the arse

"I’m keen to know why the best research and development minds in cycling have taken 20 years to move from 7 cogs to 12 cogs by tentatively adding one cog at a time."

Why would I want to just sell you a 7 and a 12 speed drivetrain...?

Press fit BB's, never a good experience with them and as a result, having a threaded BB is one of those tick boxes I have when looking at new bikes.
Used to be dead against 29ers but now sold, I guess like any new concept it takes a few generations to really get the benefit out of the original idea and other related tech, I suspect a combination of geometry and rubber in this case (similar to the combustion engine with fuel and Metallurgy)?

I’m keen to know why the best research and development minds in cycling have taken 20 years to move from 7 cogs to 12 cogs by tentatively adding one cog at a time.

I guess they just couldn't foresee a day when the IQ of your average cyclist had dropped to a level that they could neither setup nor operate a front mech.