[Closed] Working Mans Race Series-Warning Strava content

Isn't one of the first things in the Stravs T&C's 'I will not use Strava to time races'.

Great idea hear its happening elsewhere too. Great bit of fun if we all follow rule 1 - dont be a cock.....

So long as people treat it as a bit of fun it's all good.

So this month's segment appears to be [url= http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=54.418996~-2.953612&lvl=15&dir=0&sty=s&sp=Point.t22s6ygrmmmm_Untitled%20item____&eo=0&where1=Windermere%2C%20United%20Kingdom ]on a bridleway[/url], and the promo video for it features some goon on a 6" travel bike mashing along it as fast as he can. I wonder why a large section of the population think mountain bikes have no place in the countryside.

OP - great work.

Some people do stuff and help make MTB a more fun sport, while others moan but do little to actually contribute.

Some people do stuff and help make MTB a more fun sport, while others moan but do little to actually contribute.

They're the ones doing something constructive, like getting out digging trails not encourageing people to do race runs on open bridleways and likely peeving off other users.

Mr Agreeable
So this month's segment appears to be on a bridleway, and the promo video for it features some goon on a 6" travel bike mashing along it as fast as he can. I wonder why a large section of the population think mountain bikes have no place in the countryside.

So when you get to a nice inviting descent, do you purposefully go as slow as possible?

If the video had showed him terrorising walkers or horse riders etc. then fair point but..

Perhaps I'm too charitable in assuming that everyone will have common-sense and won't try manualling over labradors or hucking over a band of walkers. Will the Strava red-mist descend over everyone and normal, sensible, law-abiding citizens turn into rabid racers? I think not.

Isn't one of the first things in the Stravs T&C's 'I will not use Strava to time races'.

Probably the thing it would be absolutely best for doing...
TBH though what's the significant difference between setting up a "segment" and a "race"? other than prizes for winners?

I quite like the OP's idea TBH, I think a GPS based "Open Race" type format has some scope, course is defined by a GPS trace and competitors have a fixed window of time to log the best run they can manage...

I think a nice simple "MTB Race timer" phone app and a website front end shouldn't take an enterprising individual too long to work up... considering one of the biggest costs for many race formats is timing, and a large chunk of the population now carry a pretty accurate positioning / timing device most places, it's only a matter of time...

Probably the thing it would be absolutely best for doing...

Mates who've used it have found variations of about 20 seconds over fairly short runs. So it's not a lot of use for accurate timing. I've used it and found some very odd results, e.g. I'm beating one guy who usually laps me at the local CX races up a tough climb.

Will the Strava red-mist descend over everyone and normal, sensible, law-abiding citizens turn into rabid racers? I think not.

People pretending they're in a race does not encourage them to be considerate to other people they meet on the trail. And advertising [url= http://imba.org.uk/public-rights-of-way/cycle-racing-on-bridleways/ ]illegal activity [/url]on the internet is never a great idea.

There are lots of race organisers round the UK putting on events, paying for proper timing and marshalling, and jumping through all the hoops, so why not go and do one of those? I know the entry fees are a bit steep but they're only 1/5 the price of that unreliable office chair seatpost you just bought.

others moan but do little to actually contribute.

[url= http://bristoltrailsgroup.com/ ]Click the link in my profile, eh?[/url]

Perhaps I'm too charitable in assuming that everyone will have common-sense and won't try manualling over labradors or hucking over a band of walkers

😀

[img] [/img]

Perhaps I'm too charitable in assuming that everyone will have common-sense and won't try manualling over labradors or hucking over a band of walkers. Will the Strava red-mist descend over everyone and normal, sensible, law-abiding citizens turn into rabid racers? I think not.

It would for me.
So uphill strava segment, the limitation is largely how fit you are.
Downhill the limitation is largely how many risks your prepared to take. So once one **** rides like a **** to set the record, anyone else who want's to compete has to ride like a ****.

Probably the thing it would be absolutely best for doing...

It's not at all.
Over short runs, GPS errors will introduce significant variations. Even over longer runs, it can still miss out the start or finish point - I've ridden several local routes where I know there are segments and when I've uploaded the route afterwards, it's skipped that segment for whatever reason - GPS error, slightly off-route at the time I pass the start or finish point.

This just seems to be using Strava as a massively irresponsible race promotion/publicity tool.

[img] [/img]

Downhill the limitation is largely how many risks your prepared to take. So once one * rides like a * to set the record, anyone else who want's to compete has to ride like a *.

Arguably (fitness asside) it's limited by you're mental skills to see what's coming up, decide how you're going to ride it, then do it (unless you're super unfit it's unlikely you're going to be unable to actualy buny hop/corner/jump for fitness reasons) . Messers Peaty and Atherton could probably ride a trail at 90% and KOM, leaving 10% to deal with looking for dog walkers and other unexpected problems. It's the guy who's 90% as quick riding at 100% that's going to hit Fido and get into trouble.

Someone who's good isn't taking a risk going as fast as someone who's not.

The problem is getting everyone to ride at 90%, which is why Strava's ToS's basicly boil down to "don't be a *, it's not a real race".

Someone who's good isn't taking a risk going as fast as someone who's not.

Unfortunately I guess it's car driver syndrome. People think they're better than they are.

first thought was - that sounds great, I want to have a go. Then watched the vid and second thought was still I want to have a go BUT only if the trail is definately free of walkers etc

[i]BUT only if the trail is definately free of walkers[/i]

Maybe there could be a rule that only times set between midnight and 4am qualify?

[i]BUT only if the trail is definately free of walkers[/i]

Maybe there could be a rule that only times set between midnight and 4am qualify?

Then you upset the doggers

As stated guys it's a bit of fun using Strava, the app that times you on a ride and then tells you who was fastest, up or down. The application itself promotes going fast. It's not 100% accurate but then again we're not trying to get it recognised as an Olympic sport or gain UCI involvement. To be honest a lot of people said that I was mad for posting on here and that all I would get was trolling desk jockeys finding fault. I guess they were right in hindsight but for those that are in support cheers. Obviously we would hope that anyone participating would be courteous to other trail users and shut gates etc. We all ride bikes a lot and would do this as a matter of course whether we were racing a computer or a mate down a hill but I suppose some people probably do need this pointed out to them. Anyway for those of you that "get it" hopefully we'll see your names up there, for you other guys, well I guess this post wasn't aimed at you so enjoy whatever reason you have for riding and try not to get too upset eh?

You can add me to the list of moaning whingers who think this is a terrible idea.

1) It's illegal (racing on bridleways? someone's posted the relevant link already...)

2) It's stupid - as someone said, it only takes one macho nob who's ego is greater than their skillset to go hooning down out of control, and we can all write the local newspaper headline

3) The organiser(s) are being very, very silly here. I was going to speculate that they almost certainly haven't got any sort of liability insurance in place for this race series, but since it's illegal racing any insurance wouldn't pay out. So, what happens when someone does something expensive (like injure themselves or someone else significantly) and it turns out they were engaged in this racing series? The organiser is in a world of pain, that's what.

There's a time and a place for racing bikes, but this ain't it.

Didn't MBUK/MBR do something similar recently? But ok trail centre type stuff?

4) Also bear in mind mtber's aren't the only people who use Strava. I've been told that one of the NT wardens in the Chilterns has been using it regularly to keep tabs on where cheeky trails have appeared.

As far as 4) goes Ian the trails used are all legal to ride bikes on. Whoever it was that said Strava Terms said it wasn't to be used for race timing, I can't find that in the terms but I did find this-YOU ALSO EXPRESSLY AGREE THAT STRAVA DOES NOT ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE INSPECTION, SUPERVISION, PREPARATION, OR CONDUCT OF ANY RACE, CONTEST, GROUP RIDE OR EVENT THAT UTILIZES STRAVA’S SITE. Which seems to suggest that while they want nothing to do with it they accept that it will happen. Nobody pays to take part and as such there is no company or group organising the whole affair so I don't really think insurance comes into it. All it is is a way of grouping together who is fastest over a particular month so that trail condition and weather is more consistant. Anyway as stated it's a bit of fun, do with it what you will.

As far as 4) goes Ian the trails used are all legal to ride bikes on.

Yeah but not to race on. And you are promoting an, ahem, 'race series'.

Shared use trails are not the place for this Mr Monkey, it's not hard to figure out is it? You're just in denial because you've already invested a chunk of effort and don't want to accept you've goofed.

Go do it in a quarry or anywhere that's not used by other people and it's all cool.

Go do it in a quarry or anywhere that's not used by other people and it's all cool.

+1

Trail centre (with the agreement of the owners) or private land is fine.
No matter how much you rely on the goodwill and common sense of riders though, doing it on public, shared land is asking for trouble because some riders have no goodwill or common sense...
Not just with the potential for injury (to a rider or third party) but the potential for someone else to see this and think "I'm not having those pesky MTBers doing this sort of thing" and off they go to set up a trap - wire at head height, hole covered in leaves. It's happened elsewhere.

Sadly, it's the way of the world we live in. However much you deny it, you're promoting an illegal race.

It could be argued it isn't a race, it's a time trial.

😀

I think it's a great idea and will try to get down that way and have a go.

Don't worry about the people on here who find fault with everything - life's too short. Let people use their common sense for once.

Anyway, a similar thing has been going on in Sheffield: http://www.stravatrailracing.co.uk/

OMG, someone call the police!!!!

Anyway, a similar thing has been going on in Sheffield: http://www.stravatrailracing.co.uk/

The Sheffield one looks like it sticks to mtb trails?

so it does. I still think this is a good idea though

I know i'm getting old & boring but can only see this ending in tears. As an old mate of mine will alway say " pin a number on & go racing properly".
You should have known.

Ha ha Matt I don't think anyone is in denial after "investing a chunk of effort", I think you'd find if you asked the filmers and the riders if they had fun that they did. They have fun on bikes all the time and quite often film it. People go out everyday and try and take KOM's on Strava this is just a fun way of looking at who does it in a particular month. No one is making any money or trying to turn it into something it's not. I guess until someone actually makes us stop we will just carry on having fun amongst ourselves without the approval of you guys. Enjoy tossing your unwanted opinions backwards and forwards, it's what you do best after all...

Next time you're at a job interview and they ask "What's your weakness?" - one of the correct answers you could offer is "Dealing with differing opinions" 🙂

Ha ha Ian I could agree but there's no point in us both being wrong eh?

TBH those if us who are going to ride enthusiastically and fast will do so with or without a GPS log of the event...

Most of the Grandad brigade seem to have this image of people careering down hills with their eyes shut elbowing someone's Nan and her little jack Russell out of the way... That isn't actually how the majority of us ride though is it...

The fact is people are already timing themselves with this Sort of technology, but generally only at "appropriate" venues. I saw some lads comparing times at the bottom of Aston Hill a couple of weeks ago, I'm sure I've seen the same at Cwmcarn and other popular DH venues, I'm pretty sure all the fun descents for most trail centres will be available as segments on strava now... these are places set up and designed for MTBers to ride at pace, I see no problem with timing this activity really... It's obviously not a real race...

This hysteria over strava causing hundreds of trail collisions that would apparently never have happened before, has been about for a couple of years now but I've not heard of many incidents (well any actually), I've heard of roadies killing themselves for a KOM, but Stravaing MTBers piling into walkers and their dogs still seems like an unconfirmed myth, I'm sure someone has a link to prove me wrong though...

Yet again the STW self righteous pop up to knock what sounds a pretty fun idea ! let me think going fast downhill on a mtb, can't be doing that. So what if your timing yourself on strava, thats happening already all over the world and people have been going flat out down bridleways since mtbing began, infact thats how it started if memory serves. Good video by the way cumbrianmonkey, pity your a bit far up or some south wales boys might have come up to show you how its done ( not me by the way to old and knackerd these days ) Maybe it will end in tears but then so can getting out of bed in the morning.

well said taxi25, there seems to be some kickers getting in right twist over this, calm down lads its only bike riding down bridleways that we've been riding down the last 25 years, just because its now timed by a satellite its not gonna make much difference.
good idea this, ill be having a go, might be to old/slow to beat bowmy, (hiya bud, been a while}, but worth a shot.

Nope, sorry, as someone who enjoys Strava I'm in the 'stupid, irresponsible and you're setting yourself up for a potential epic lawsuit if it were to go wrong' camp. Bury your head in the sand and call everyone 'grandpa' by all means, but as promoter of this race series you're now liable if a third party chose to pursue you for damages. Best get that liability insurance sorted eh?

Funny how these folks value so much their right to ride dh on bridleways yet with their 'race series' and their facebook pages and their videos and their promotions on Internet forums they're playing right into the hands of any interest group looking to put a stop to them and any bike access.

How can they not see that? It's beyond me.

Did anyone see the documentary last years when locals in the lakes got an order stopping vehicles from using a green lane?

Lets not even get into the ethical and safety issues. (It's not like that would work as persuasion anyway. But access might).

To be honest a lot of people said that I was mad for posting on here and that all I would get was trolling desk jockeys finding fault. I guess they were right in hindsight but for those that are in support cheers.

Jesus. What a horrible attitude. People are worried for pretty sound reasons. You may disagree but that doesn't make them "trolling desk jockeys", it makes them mountain bikes with sound concerns.

It's funny, I use strava as a training aid, the idea of a "race series" appeals.

I find myself going for PBs & KOMs against other riders on local segments I often find myself baulked by pedestrian traffic, so I slow down, give way, smile and nod at the walkers and wait for the day I get a totally clear run.

To me it's part of the Strava "game"

I try and ignore the 30MPH averages on sone of the smoother segments near here (the ones u gotta use to get to the muddy bits_ as thats just roadies trying to show that they think they have a bigger willy than me...

Stop moaning..... please.... I thought Mountain bikers were the rebellious hippies of cycling .. not the confromists ... hey man.. you're cozying up to THE MAN man!

Wow
So much denial in this thread

Pah, non matching wheels & purple bars …….… I'm out!

I don't have a 6" travel all mountain steed, but I do have GPX editing software - can I race?

Tbh I ride the same regardless of strava etc. I will go for it on any empty trail and normally avoid ones with walkers etc. I will stop or slow for anybody else so not really an issue. A lot of worrying about people we all dont know or claim to be who would run people down because the Internet said it was fine. In reality given the stw strava previous I wouldnt have bothered to mention it here.

I think you have a race on your hands if you INVITE people to race over a given area and list the results and offer prizes.
It's a race in anyones book.
Racing on BWs is illegal.

You'll need insurance and the landowners permission.

A racer was killed Sunday, I'd like to know how you'd deal with the death of a rider in one of your races?

Edit; there must be someone in the know here. I organise Road races, time trials, reliability trials, CX races etc etc. All need permissions and/or insurance

Sorry to moan, mountain biking is effing great, but I've never seen internet data based info as making it more fun. I must be one of those old bores. Oh to be a rebellious hippy internet nerd.

I try and ignore the 30MPH averages on sone of the smoother segments near here (the ones u gotta use to get to the muddy bits_ as thats just roadies trying to show that they think they have a bigger willy than me...

You're kidding? So because you're an overweight unfit mountain biker anyone faster is trying to show off to you? Dear god, get over yourself. How utterly pathetic.

Just had a giggle. Remember the silly girls who invited people to their party via facebook 😀

That pesky old WORLD WIDE web

Irresponsible move on the OP's part to include a BW as part of the course.
Just grow a pair and admit that you know this but don't give a shit.

[i]with their 'race series' and their facebook pages and their videos and their promotions on Internet forums they're playing right into the hands of any interest group looking to put a stop to them and any bike access. [/i]

I think this is the biggest reason.

It's not about actual safety, it's about perceived safety. Landowners,other users and local authorities will either put in 'traffic calming' on these trails or put them beyond use by mtbers.

I'm all for riding down stuff at speeds that scare me.

I'm against losing access to either cheeky or legal off road stuff because some people can't seem to see the difference between a bunch of mates having a laugh on a Tuesday night and putting a race series together.

I use Strava and love it but I'm also aware that it makes public some bits of riding which I'd sometimes rather weren't quite so visible.

They're not the sharpest pins in the pack, these lads, are they?

I'm glad I'm not that 'cool'.

There are some really thin attempts to justify this. Claiming that this is "progressing the sport" is a bit like taking a dump on someone's doorstep, uploading a picture to Facebook and saying you're progressing the cause of public hygiene.

I've been involved with getting better trails and access for MTBers for around 9 years now (not long in the grand scheme of things) and in that time I've seen a big change in landowner's attitudes to mountain bikers, to something they actually recognise as a legitimate use of the countryside and often want to encourage. See the article on the National Trust in a recent issue for an example. Stuff like this seems a big step backwards.

A few years ago there were no enduro events in the UK, now there are loads of one-offs and race series all over the country. These are organised by people who bust a gut to get all the relevant permissions, keep racers and randoms safe and do proper timing (I know it always seems to be the weak point, but when it works it's still going to be more accurate than the +/- 20 metres your phone gives). Funny how putting on your own version of this with no permission, no insurance and no marshalling is somehow rock 'n' roll rebellion. Would you think the same about someone who was driving uninsured and without a licence?

I love it when you get all earnest Mr_A 😉

He's right though - boring as it may be, setting up a race on a bridleway with strava is just asking for that good bit of trail to be sanitised by the local council/local do-gooder and to be fair if people are hooning down them to get a better time, I'm not sure they're totally out of order for once.

Strava is brilliant. I love it and I love trying to beat my own times (because I'm not quick enough to actually trouble the leaders) but I do it in places where I'm not going to be causing conflict. That conflict may not always be justified (HE WAS OUT OF CONTROL - translated to he passed me at more than walking pace) but that doesn't always matter. As Mr_A said, it's a lot of work to get events organised and permission granted. This sort of thing may well undermine a lot of that and IMO the organised events are what progress the sport, not a strava race-off.

Most of the handwringing on this thread comes down to the fact that you have called the thing you are proposing a "Race" it's simply a matter of definition...
I think there's a simple solution that might actually be acceptable to some complainants:

OP simply Retract your use of the term "Race" and the offer of any form of "Prize". instead you are simply submiting a proposal to the great unwashed for a "training event"...

You have shared a route on Strava (not illegal) which contains some Downhill Segments and some BW (Not illegal) and Strava will of course keep a table of user's times for these (this is Completely out of your control as strava does this automatically)...
So the site essentially generates the basis for a "comparison of rider's performances"... But it's NOT a race!

Now You may choose to make a gift of some biscuits or a pint to a KOM holder at some point in the future. But that would simply be one individual recognising anothers sporting prowess, based on a [U]Non-competitive[/U] GPS logged performance, with no hint of a "Race" to it, merely recognition of ability...

Does that satisfy anyones concerns at all?

What about the unemployed ? Will they also be welcome to race, oops, I mean will their ability also be recognised or is it just open to working men and women?

We've had a request to close this thread as it's 'getting out of hand'.

We said categorically, no.

For the record... Racing and promoting racing on the BW network is illegal. As far as we are concerned at ST it's also irresponsible and puts shared trail users at an unacceptable risk that will potentially backfire on the whole MTB community.

This is an accident waiting to happen and Singletrack does not endorse this event.

Take it off the BW network on to dedicated trails with permission, liability insurance etc and it's a different matter entirely.

Most of the handwringing on this thread comes down to the fact that you have called the thing you are proposing a "Race" it's simply a matter of definition..

"Race [b]or trial of speed[/b]"

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/31

And it's not just about the legality. It's about the well-documented propensity of people involved in a "race" (even one without the inverted commas) to behave like dicks. And the wisdom of promoting all this publicly.

I wonder what peoples reaction would have been if it was just people timing themselves and sharing the results with their facebook friends with no mention of Strava.

bigyinn - I think the issue is promoting a race on a public bridelway.

Strava gives a rather inaccurate way of doing the timing and makes it very public but it's secondary to the racing on a shared use path thing for me.

+1 wwaswas. Not the strava aspect of it (my views on strava above 😉 )

I wonder what peoples reaction would have been if it was just people timing themselves and sharing the results with their facebook friends with no mention of Strava.

There wouldn't be a reaction at all, because no one other than the participants would know about it, would they. I think we can all accept that people do cheeky things, whether it's riding on the odd footpath, mates comparing times down runs or whatever. If this had stayed as some mates using strava to compare times on runs, even on bridleways then no one would have a problem with it. I just don't get how anyone can't see that there is a significant difference between that and publicising it as a race series all over the internet and offering prizes. It's like they're [b]trying[/b] to create trouble for themselves.

On the other hand though.... the pitchforks weren't sharpened for a certain monger of bikes the other month when he proposed something that in practice will look more like a race than this, although at least he had the common sense to introduce some language to make it seem less illegal. For example

off road sportive format rather than official race, no entry fees, no insurance, no medics, no marshalls. no gears, no fuss.

there is a race, it is a race, we will be racing... But don't tell anyone with a clip board.

You see they are running (they being wiggle) an offload sportive on public rights of way. You are not allowed to race on briddlepaths ( horse and feet, yes, bikes, no). Wiggle give you a good medal for finishing within a certain time, folk "race" for the medals. We will award a medal to anyone who finishes within a certain time, that time will be decided once someone has finished. Loop hole. Reliability trial... Sportive, Whatever

[url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/ssuk-2013 ]Topic from this here forum[/url]

In essence, is that much different? Well, yeah, everyone will be riding at the same time so it will look a lot more like a race to any passing dog walkers than the OP's strava based tournament actually. But on the other hand Charlie hasn't gone round the internet shouting "Illegal race here! Illegal race here!"

I know a few people who aren't happy about what Charlie is doing. Thing it, if it's anything like previous SSUKs it'll be the least competitive "race" ever run. People don't do beer stops in the middle of Strava runs do they?

He's also running it as an off-road sportive so it'll be insured and landowners notified, etc. Apples and oranges.

Point is though, as least he's made that effort to try and present it as something other than an illegal race. But yes, it did strike me as odd on reflection that none of the concerns expressed in this thread seemed to come out in that thread despite the obvious parallels.

Mark - Resident Grumpy
We've had a request to close this thread as it's 'getting out of hand'.

We said categorically, no.

Out of interest which side of the argument asked for the thread to be closed?

Mr Agreeable - Member
I know a few people who aren't happy about what Charlie is doing. Thing it, if it's anything like previous SSUKs it'll be the least competitive "race" ever run

I dunno, there are at least normally 3 or 4 people who are actually going for it. Even saw the eventual winner* ride through the beer stop without stopping for a hop based beverage once.

*in my eyes this should've been a straight dq. Much like the american chap who refused his tattoo after winning the sscxwc**

**they call it a world championship but it's only ever been held in the US. a bit like the world series in that respect i suppose.

[img] [/img]

I just don't get how anyone can't see that there is a significant difference between that and publicising it as a race series all over the internet and offering prizes. It's like they're trying to create trouble for themselves.

What it says to me is
"we don't have the organisational skills, common sense, time, ability or money to organise a proper race so we're going to do none of the work and take all of the credit"

All over the UK, people are working their arses off to organise new races, bring new blood into the sport, open up new venues (sometimes working against recalcitrant landowners/councils/NIMBYs etc) and run properly organised races that have in place the necessary infrastructure for safety and the ever present threat of litigation.

Than along comes one idiot who decides to spread the word of an illegal event all over the interweb and risks all of that development work, all the people doing things by the book. There's not really much harm in running something like that "under the radar", keep it local and quiet but putting it all over Facebook is a really silly move.

We've had a request to close this thread as it's 'getting out of hand'.

We said categorically, no.

On the other hand though.... the pitchforks weren't sharpened for a certain monger of bikes the other month when he proposed something that in practice will look more like a race than this,

From charlie:

One plan is to start an SSUK cycling club, membership would include the weekend event. We affiliate the club with another cycling organisation for a few quid and then we have liability insurance for our event. Throw in a risk assessment and we in.

This would allow us to run Reliability trials, and time trials for up to 200 people. This means we wont be tied to private land, and have access to rights of way. This is the format of the wiggle off road sportives, where 1,000 riders will be going down my local singletrack in November.

So yes, assuming it goes ahead to that plan, everyone's insured.

Interesting edlong, I'd missed that thread.

So apparently it's all OK to run an "off road sportive" so long as the STW big hitters approve, but sharing a route on Strava is now illegal?

What exactly does it take to makes a "high paced training ride" or "Off road Sportive" into a "race or trial of speed" then?

The Individual riders's ground speed exceeding "bimble-speed"?
Timing individuals across a course?
Comparing times as a basis for competition?

spoony, yes, I get that, Charlie has been clever about it and tried to make sure, as far as possible, to present it as something other than a race. However, it's hard to deny that he's surfing somewhere close to the line with comments like

there is a race, it is a race, we will be racing... But don't tell anyone with a clip board

and

We will award a medal to anyone who finishes within a certain time, that time will be decided once someone has finished. Loop hole. Reliability trial... Sportive, Whatever

So, let's assume he gets that insurance set up - the brokers will gladly take his money for the premium, but just say something goes horribly wrong on the day and they need to put in a massive claim. Do you think the insurance will pay out, no questions asked? Or do you think they might see what's in the public domain where the organiser has pretty much said it is a race, talked about loopholes and say no, sorry, we didn't cover you for racing which in our opinion is what this was, claim rejected? I reckon the latter.

It's a bit like those parents putting their kids on as named drivers at the home address when they are away at university and have sole use of the car. No questions asked when you take out the policy, whole worlds of trouble when a claim is made against it...

I'm not sure that, from a legal perspective, it matters much how hard / seriously the racing is taken?

Sorry, I'm going to resort to doing this as I can't be arsed to type much more:

So apparently it's all OK to run an "off road sportive" so long as [s]the STW big hitters approve[/s] it's insured and the people whose land it's happening on are notified, but sharing a route on Strava [u]and telling people to go out and smash it as fast as they can to win a prize[/u] is illegal [u]and stupid to boot[/u]?

[i]We will award a medal to anyone who finishes within a certain time, that time will be decided once someone has finished.[/i]

this has how wiggle, evans etc manage things. Set a target time, issue a medal for those that come in within that time.

I know some New Forest residents have complained about the format on the Wiggle rides and see it as racing but legally, it's not.

We've had a request to close this thread as it's 'getting out of hand'.
We said categorically, no.

In fact you've decided to put a post onfacebook to draw even more attention to it. 😆

So apparently it's all OK to run an "off road sportive" so long as the STW big hitters approve, but sharing a route on Strava is now illegal?

trying to be balanced about it, there is a bit of difference between Charlie saying

"we're doing an off-road sportive, which isn't a race, honest, guv (wink, wink)"

and blokey on this thread saying

"we're running an illegal race, cos we're rebels, come join us"

As I said earlier, we all do cheeky things, but some people at least have the nouse to know when they're being cheeky and don't broadcast the cheekiness with such explicit disregard for the consequences.

Do I think what Charlie is doing is similar to what the OP is doing?

Yes

Do I think Charlie has been a million times less stupid about it?

Yes

We will award a medal to anyone who finishes within a certain time, that time will be decided once someone has finished.

this has how wiggle, evans etc manage things. Set a target time, issue a medal for those that come in within that time.

The difference is in there if you read it - wiggle set the target time beforehand, Charlie will set the target time once someone finishes. Do you not see how, if someone were to look closely (like, say, an insurance assessor looking at a million pound liability claim) that might be a little awkward to explain the logic of?

Am I missing something ?

Is there any difference between the Working Man's series and the [url= http://thisisheffield.stravatrailracing.co.uk/ ]This Is Sheffield[/url]series ?

AFAIK, there have been no fatalities on the BWs around Sheffield this winter.

If you going to ride like an idiot because you have a GPS on your bike, your going to ride like an idiot anyway. But for most of us Strava is interesting, not because we are trying to be the best, but to see how far behind the best we are.

At least you're consistent......oh no,no you're not.My mistake

Oh please. You don't think there's any merit in discussing this issue?

If the thread was closed we'd get a different set of people complaining about double standards. Can't win.

What exactly does it take to makes a "high paced training ride" or "Off road Sportive" into a "race or trial of speed" then?

How about statements such as calling it a

fun "race series"

and saying that

At the end of the month the fastest mens and womans times will be rewarded with ...

Yeah, I reckon that would do it.

Am I missing something ?

Is there any difference between the Working Man's series and the This Is Sheffieldseries ?

i think someone mentioned it earlier - isn't the difference that the sheffield thing isn't done illegally on shared use bridleways?

Based on a comment on here, happy to be corrected if that's not right, I have no knowledge of the sheffield thing..

[b]AFAIK[/b], there have been no fatalities on the BWs around Sheffield [b]this winter[/b].

Love how you feel the need to qualify that statement.

I feel the same way about the Sheffield stuff, but at least they've had the good sense to keep it fairly low-key.