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I would like to share my recent experience with On-One Carbon Race 29 frame quality and warranty. I broke two frames in 2.5 half years under normal use on easy trails and roads. I am over 50 and my weight is about 170 lbs so the usage of the frames has not been too harsh.
The first frame broke down in less than one year like this.
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I got the replacement frame after returning the broken frame.
That replacement frame broke down like this in about 1.5 half year like this.
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After I made a warranty claim to On-One they just informed me that according to their warranty policy they will not cover anything because the purchase date of the first frame was over two years ago. As a sign of a goodwill they offered me a "generous" 10% discount from the list price of Lurcher or Dirty Harry frame! Needless to say that I felt very disappointed to their feedback.
I assumed that a quite expensive carbon frames under On-One name should last more than a year and a half. No wonder why they quit this frame from their product portfolio.
Next time if I'd like to get possible quality problems with a carbon frame I'll purchase a cheap frame directly from China. Then I at least know what to expect and that risk is already included into cheap prices.
No On-One frames nor other products for me anymore!
not commenting on their policy but 20 minutes with some Epoxy would see that BB shell re-bonded into the frame.
If it's inserts both times (which it looks like) then pretty piss poor of them not to keep warrantying it, it's not like they can claim it's crash damage.
1st post on STW to highlight this?
1st post on STW to highlight this?
Why not? Not condoning the OP's actions, but if you feel aggrieved about something, you go have a moan....possibly on a forum inhabited by a certain Mr Richards.
*iolo to the forum*
That seatpost shim looks way too short?
As I see it a replacement is only guaranteed for the [b][u]balance[/u] [/b]of the initial warranty period. Otherwise if you were a less than honest and really a hard rider of a bike over its intended design/purpose where would it end? eternal supply of replacement frames?
On another note- how much did you pay originally? Most frames lose lots of money over 2.5yrs. If you paid say £400- surely thats good value for its build/weight/intended use?
Its 2yrs.
I've had experience of a product failure with On One- Brant didn't muck about.
1st post on STW to highlight this?
He's new give him a chance , OP you should have finished your post with Brant Brant Brant ....
warranty is warranty, if it is two years then it is two years, if you want more buy a frame from someone who offers more.
Second the epoxy solution.
So, what are you actually complaining about here?
a.) the fact that you are not happy with the warranty terms which were available to you before buying (and are the same as the majority of other manufacturers)
b.) the fact that the frames have suffered failure.
I don't really see the merit in openly criticising the first point as this just demonstrates that you didn't check the warranty terms when you entered into your contract of purchase.
For the second, is is open to interpretation as nobody knows how you have ridden the bike.
As for buying a 'cheap' Chinese frame, this is of course an option and will get you something very similar, BUT you miss out on a legally & logistically enforceable warranty, CE conformity, the fact that On One saved you the hassle and risk of buying and shipping from China and a whole multitude of other logistical advantages. If you are prepared to deal with all of that, then a Chinese-direct frame is obviously the way ahead.
I do feel for you in respect of your predicament, but I don't sympathise regarding On One upholding their clearly defined warranty procedure.
As the damage seems minimal it hasn't put me off, I'm looking at a Dirty Harry frame at the moment, can I have you 10% discount 😉
In both the sports that I do, (biking and windsurfing) I always regard the word "race" in the name of a product as an indication that it's optimised for speed at the expense of durability.
Regardless of the warranty terms, neither frame has lasted beyond 18 months, thats poor by anyones standards surely?
Another reminder of why they are such a 'bargain' in my eyes.
This is THE reason why I wouldn't buy another frame that didn't have a lifetime warranty. A good warranty shows confidence in the product.
I've not been in the trade long, but I've seen how both Specialized, Ridgeback and Trek give great customer service on their products, replacing frames for whole bikes in two cases, without quibble.
Sorry OP but you chose the wrong forum to slag off On One.
I don't think there's any complaint about the warranty, they've fulfilled their obligation to you which is more than they did for me. Warranties don't extend when a replacement is provided.
Course it's not all about obligations, you'd hope for a reliable frame and failing that better backup but that's a different kettle of fish. And frankly the nice thing about low quality products is you can bodge them back together with less guilt- there's a pretty good chance you could break out the epoxy and do a better job of fixing it than On One did in the first place.
Warranties don't extend when a replacement is provided.
No, but they should start afresh on the replacement, surely.
Why? A seller has fulfilled their obligation for the period of the warranty offered.
As I've said, if it was indefinite (because it'd end up being indefinite) - where would the retailer be able to stop giving new frames to the customer?
We have no idea how, where, does what etc etc on his bike. We all think we are better or worse riders than others. I was tempted by a cheap Whippet years ago but realised I WOULD break it riding it on rocky trails whilst being abit tubby. PeterPoddy points out big manufacturers policies but then - do they sell a full carbon frame that retails for less than £400?
If a customer feels the replacement/product isn't upto merchandisable standards then you are supposed to act very quickly to reject the product/ask for a refund. I wonder if the OP had been offered this route or was just happy with a replacement frame after looking round and realising that to get a similar frame elsewhere would be circa 3times the cost?
Because the replacement part/product should be of equal quality and fitness for purpose as a new one. It's effectively the same as buying a new part. In fact, one could argue that a failure may place an increased onus on a supplier providing something better as a replacement.
It's hardly new news about On One/Planet X selling cheap crap and giving shocking customer service is it?
I agree the garantee does run starting from the original purchase so legally you are not getting shafted.
But also believe your experience shows the frames to be a bit crap, so would not buy a carbon frame from them again at the very least.
But that said I was of the impression on one frames were cheap and cheerful so to speak.
Agree surely you could have the frame easily repaired,
Both frames don't look that broken tbh - although obv it's bad that it's happened.
The frame's a few hundred quid new - get 2.5 years out of this, plus a replacement, sounds about right to me. I wouldn't see this sort of frame as something I'd grow old with - YMMV.
OO are perfectly within their rights though I would have hoped that they'd offer a bit more than just 10% off - the equivalent of trade+VAT seems a more common replacement charge for out of warranty replacements IME - eg they're not trying to make a profit on it.
But I will caveat it slightly by agreeing with the post above about the 'Race' tag. For me that always says that durability will be reduced though each frame should really last 2 years, particularly as it seems likely here that they've had a problem with their insert bonding durability.
£20 posted?
Just kidding, on one area cheap and cheerful brand as said above, get it bonded, it'll be reet.
Pete - 😆
I wish warranties did. I'd be on my twelteenth commencal
Why not? Not condoning the OP's actions, but if you feel aggrieved about something, you go have a moan....possibly on a forum inhabited by a certain Mr Richards
Yes for the normal STWer but signing up to spread your unhappiness 🙂
From a hazy memory the 29 race frames were very light - werent they?
From a hazy memory the 29 race frames were very light - werent they?
Even more so once the inserts fell out...
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Sounds to me like On-One are sticking to the strict terms of the warranty but aren't going the extra mile to abide by the spirit of the warranty and to keep a customer happy. Two different failures of the same product for the same customer in such a short time shouldn't be expected.
It would be nice if someone at On-One looked at this and thought "yeah that's not right, lets do the right thing for the customer" rather than saying "it's in the terms and conditions so too bad". Not actual quotes of course.
DB
Jamie
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I wouldn't be happy about that. But i would fix it myself (2nd one)
if you are local to Shropshire then give me a shout. (there will be NO warrenty :D)
you could buy a cheap frame from china, but thats basically what you've got. At least you got one replacement.
Is it fit for purpose -no. Do On-one have a customer service that is fit for purpose.....not in my experiance.
You're right to have moan. thats poor IMHO.
on a side note, on-ones sheffield steel ads are taking the pie filling abit. trying to piggy back off some else's hard work in British manufacturing.
Next time if I'd like to get possible quality problems with a carbon frame I'll purchase a cheap frame directly from China
You kinda did but it went via On-One en-route with a mark-up.
Isn't that kind of his point...?
(FWIW, my China warranty experience was good: [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/chinese-carbon-warranty-experience ]here[/url])
This is THE reason why I wouldn't buy another frame that didn't have a lifetime warranty. A good warranty shows confidence in the product.
I've not been in the trade long, but I've seen how both Specialized, Ridgeback and Trek give great customer service on their products, replacing frames for whole bikes in two cases, without quibble.
It's more of marketing tool than any real confidence in the product, most products follow a 'bathtub' curve for failures, a few really quick failures due to manufacturing, then almost nothing for a very long time, then a sudden increace when they reach the end of their design life. The trick warenty's pull is to set the warrenty to cover the low period, because a bike/car/other that lasts through the first year will probably last a lot longer. So offering a 7 year warenty probably costs Kia no more than offering a 1 year warrenty.
Having said that the OP's problem looks like it should be in th first part of the curve, not the end of it's life, the inserts aren't something you'd expect to fall out over time!
If you actualy want a reliable car, buy a Honda. Statisticaly they're somethign like 3 limes less likely to break down than the next best manufacturer. Not 0.33x the average, 0.33x the next best! Although the analogy falls down as they have an 8 year/100,000 mile warrenty.
Not sure whether it should make a difference, but the OP is in Turku, Finland, so maybe that tempers O-O's willingness to be sending things back and forth.
It would be nice if someone at On-One looked at this and thought "yeah that's not right, lets do the right thing for the customer" rather than saying "it's in the terms and conditions so too bad". Not actual quotes of course.
I am looking at this.
He's new give him a chance , OP you should have finished your post with Brant Brant Brant ....
[s]Candyman[/s] Brant: I am looking at this.
The prophecy has come true!
It's more of marketing tool than any real confidence in the product
+1 on that - like Marin's lifetime warranty on their FS bearings with the original Mt Visions. Loads of them died and were replaced but loads of people bought them in the first place because of it and no doubt loads didn't get ridden enough to die anyway.
on a side not on-ones sheffield steel ads are taking the pie filling abit. trying to piggy back off some else's hard work in British manufactoring.
Doubly so, seeing as they're from Doncaster not Sheffield :-p
That's like people in Slough claiming to live in Windsor.
I wouldn't see any carbon frame as something to grow old with. Its also worth noting that a lifetime warranty is not an eternal cover, but is for the expexted lifetime of a product, for example.a super lightweight scandium and carbon race frame for could have an expected " lifetime" of a couple of years. Or super light race rims have a set lifetime of km in use..
always worth having a read of t &c but id never expect any item to be warranteed fpr 2 years then have a fail then get another 2 years on replacement ad infinitum as thats not a commercially realistic expection.
So what I'm taking from this is to never accept a replacement and go for refund only. That way you can buy a new replacement, complete with a new warranty.
Seems like the only way round it to me.
From memory, I don't think they have to refund you. In fact they can actually repair the product should they choose.
Does anyone provide a lifetime warranty on a carbon xc frame?
If the warranty were to restart upon each replacement frame, I would be there is a shot. I would ride the bike for 23 months and then knacker it so I could get a fresh new frame (probably an upgraded item as it is unlikely that they will still have the original model) and then start again. I reckon that one original frame purchase could probably see me out my days of riding!
For the above reason, I think it entirely fair that a warranty should last the period of the original purchase.
I would ride the bike for 23 months and then knacker it
I think you'll find that warrantys exclude the owner 'knackering it'.
Just a thought...did someone mention the owner was in finland...carbin bonding can fail ay low temp so it may be feasible that inset bonding fails may be outside the the usual design spec
..
I was quite impressed with the warranty terms when I bought a Five frame. Something like 3 years warranty then another couple with a decent discount off a new frame. I reckon if you can't break an aluminium MTB frame in five years the you aren't trying hard enough 🙂
Back to the OP; I can see why they are miffed, but both failures just look like inserts that have come loose. These are just glued in anyway and if it were me, I'd just have stuck them back in with whatever glue is recommended for this stuff. I think people get nervous about riding a bike that is just held together with glue, but lots of planes are basically held together the same way. If you prep the surfaces properly you should be able to make it as good as new. Or better based on the evidence from those pictures.
when apple replaced my ipod the warranty on the replacement was the remaining time left on the warranty from the original purchase, which was only a year anyway
after 2years a lightweight carbon raceframe dying id take it on the chin especially if id got it at on-one prices
id also be quite happy to have a go at fixing it or even ask [s]spoonman[/s] cynic-al or someone to have a go
basically dont expect BA service at Ryanair prices
I knew that opening this thread here on On-One's home base is like throwing the gasoline to the fire.
The problem is that most of the carbon inside of the frame (bottom bracket) into which the PF insert should be bonded is also broken/disappeared. So there is a very little bonding surface left in the frame.
I know and understand the warranty rules. As working for sales and marketing top management in global business over 20 years I also do understand the importance of the goodwill and loosing the company image when selling crap which, does not keep its original product promise. That is what happened here with On-One. That frame was not cheap when it was launched. It was about 1,000 euros (800 UK Sterling).
Yes, I have and ride other "Race-only"-frames like S-works Epic 29er without any problems. And if there are some quality issues with that frame I would assume that it would be taken care smoother and less image harming way than On-One did.
For the next season my rides will be Pivot 429c and Pivot LES. So I assume that those should be "more robust" and I can ride those without a fear with my style even it would be easy or not on bikes.
Also I would make a short comparison between the car industry and the bike industry when there are cases when it is obvious that there is something structurally wrong with the product after warranty has expired. In car industry companies are covering those kind of problems more or less voluntarily mostly through call back programs, but in the bike industry at least On-One is not following the same path. They have just decided to sit quiet in the corner and hope that two years warranty is over. Then they can quietly bury the failed product and let the dust comes down.
And yes I really cannot care less what people at On-One might think about me. I will not buy a frame or bike from them in my life.
I had an Orange ST4 that broke three times.
Orange warrantied it once (a few weeks outside warranty) with new style chainstay and bearing kit.
Second time they sent up a new rocker - warning I was now out of warranty, so would charge if it happened again.
Third time they charged me a reasonable £35 for a new rocker.
I decided that I was out of warranty, had put some silly tough miles on the bike and it did not owe me much. So I popped it on eBay and got enough to replace with a new HT frame.
Frustrating, yes, wouldn't it be nice to keep the frame going and going and going. I think Orange were spot on reasonable.
Realistically, this is not what happens, and I had to take a pragmatic approach to this.
I appreciate the OP being frustrated - 2.5 yrs/ 2 frames is not 'old', and it seems a well looked after bike.
But, terms of warranty is terms of warranty.
When brant comes back with the offer of a new frame I'll take it for you 🙂
I understand your frustration and I think most people sympathise with your situation (including brant, it would appear). He's sorted an issue out for me after I mentioned it in a thread on here so hopefully you'll get a result you're happy with (albeit that you may not want a replacement frame now...).
I'd stop where you are for now OP and see what Brant comes back with (if anything). You've got their attention, give them a chance to rectify it before you destroy any remaining goodwill.And yes I really cannot care less what people at On-One might think about me. I will not buy a frame or bike from them in my life.
Finland? How cold does it get there? 2.5yrs is good?
And yes I really cannot care less what people at On-One might think about me. I will not buy a frame or bike from them in my life.
If this is the case, and Brant did pull a bike/frame shaped rabbit out of a hat, can I have it? 8)
[i]can I have it?[/i]
I got first dibbs!
It's more of marketing tool than any real confidence in the product,
Yep, so what if it is? If you need to claim on it, it's brilliant. New £600 full bike for 12 year old cracked frame within a week? I defy anyone to argue against that!
And yes I really cannot care less what people at On-One might think about me. I will not buy a frame or bike from them in my life.
I'll not waste any more time on it then.
Cheers.
🙂 I did wonder if that was going to be the follow up from brant.
So, brant, for goodwill of the rest of us who might still buy from OO in the future, can you now raffle off that replacement frame that you won't now be providing to the OP?
Also I would make a short comparison between the car industry and the bike industry when there are cases when it is obvious that there is something structurally wrong with the product after warranty has expired. In car industry companies are covering those kind of problems more or less voluntarily mostly through call back programs,
Peugeot and Ford didn't for the known faults mine developed they also told me to jog on when I contacted them about it not even a discount on parts or work.
Too late Clubber.
To be fair to the op and Brant he shouldn't always have to sort this sort of mess out.
If on one said no warranty, just because Brant comes on here, shouldn't mean he is obliged to sort it out at cost to the company he works for.
the importance of the goodwill and loosing the company image when selling crap
But they are known for selling cheap goods from china, it may not be the image they want to cultivate but as long as the boxes keep shifting out of the chaos warehouse I doubt they care.
Seeing as its the insert bonding that has failed it may well be low temp affecting the glass tansion temp and the epoxy bond is breaking..the bonded insert basically becomes less abble to flex with the frame and will come loose. Dependa in the epoxy and temps but some can start to fail in as little as -10
I think BrNt literally meant he was looking at this thread.
I am still going to look at our crash replacement pricing.
I'll not waste any more time on it then.
Sooooo. About that now destination-less goodwill gesture....
Seeing as its the insert bonding that has failed it may well be low temp affecting the glass tansion temp and the epoxy bond is breaking..the bonded insert basically becomes less abble to flex with the frame and will come loose. Dependa in the epoxy and temps but some can start to fail in as little as -10
The problem is that most of the carbon inside of the frame (bottom bracket) into which the PF insert should be bonded is also broken/disappeared. So there is a very little bonding surface left in the frame.
Sooo a frame made to budget may not have the best internal finish..and use a cheaper bonding agent fir inserts that may not cope with lower temps results in a smaller contact area and a more fragile bond with a frame fail...case closed mlud..by cheap and use in possible circumstances outside of desing tolerances and get a materials fail. ..or it could just be crap 😀
If on one said no warranty, just because Brant comes on here, shouldn't mean he is obliged to sort it out at cost to the company he works for.
Not true. Regardless of the warranty, Sale of Goods still applies, which requires that the product be sufficiently durable. From the OP's information, I'd say that test has not been met - considering the length of time and the purchase price.
Unfortunately, the OP's route now would have to be to obtain an independent inspection and take it through Small Claims.
It's very disappointing that On One have decided to ignore their legal responsibilities. That, coupled with the crappy performance of some items I bought from them recently mean that I shall no longer use them.
tazzymtb - Member
Seeing as its the insert bonding that has failed it may well be low temp affecting the glass tansion temp and the epoxy bond is breaking..the bonded insert basically becomes less abble to flex with the frame and will come loose. Dependa in the epoxy and temps but some can start to fail in as little as -10
I've never looked, but does that mean carbon frames come with an operating temp range?
That, coupled with the crappy performance of some items I bought from them recently mean that I shall no longer use them.
Right, no free frame for ransos either. Anyone else?
Right, no free frame for ransos either. Anyone else?
As I've never bought a frame from them, I suppose I'll get over it.
Does the Sale of Goods act apply for Finland too Ransos?
[i]Sale of Goods still applies[/i]
even for an export sale?
to balance things; I had a moan on here about the sale they had after christmas and it was sorted out to my satisfaction by the guys at p-x/on-one.
We need a "What radiator for garage holding carbon bikes ?" thread
Still a 10% discount is a bit of a crap offer isn't it? I would be annoyed with that. Especially in these circumstances ie not crash damage, clearly a product failure.
Also there is enough crap going to landfill already- why not build things to last a little longer?
[i]It would be nice if someone at On-One looked at this and thought "yeah that's not right, lets do the right thing for the customer" rather than saying "it's in the terms and conditions so too bad". Not actual quotes of course.[/i]
It would be but from past experience I wouldn't hold out much hope. They're not the most gracious of companies to deal with.
I emailed them last week looking for a very small part that gone missing from a set of their cnc ultralight brakes, its the wee plastic bit the return spring engages in and the brake is useless without it. I got a response which was positive, 'I'll have a look around tomorrow and come back to you', no response after a week, replied to their email got the response 'sorry couldn't find any lying around.'
That's fair enough but I just got the impression that they didn't bother their arse looking. So I guess I'll need to bin the brake.
[quote=stumpy01 ]
tazzymtb - Member
Seeing as its the insert bonding that has failed it may well be low temp affecting the glass tansion temp and the epoxy bond is breaking..the bonded insert basically becomes less abble to flex with the frame and will come loose. Dependa in the epoxy and temps but some can start to fail in as little as -10
I've never looked, but does that mean [b]On One[/b] carbon frames come with an operating temp range?
Could be - after all, you're not supposed to apply frame protection tape to On One carbon frames either.
Right, no free frame for ransos either. Anyone else?
I've given up with their clothing, socks that wore through the toes in a few rides, gloves which split at the seems. The steel frame's seem good though.
I assume from many sent messages that I should know who Brant is, but I do not know.
I would like to mention here that before starting moaning here at STW, US MTBR-forum and Finnish bicycle forum I told to OO Service that I was very unsatisfied how they handled this case. Then I also mentioned that I will share my experience on different MTB-forums. So this should be no surprise to them but more like a well-judged decision made by their customer/warranty service person.
Gary_M - Member
That's fair enough but I just got the impression that they didn't bother their arse looking. So I guess I'll need to bin the brake.
They are probably busy - may have forgotten. I know I have forgotten stuff like this in my work. Won't the brake work without it? Would say a shimano spare work?
I suspect you'd struggle to get this spare from many brake distributors.
brant is the frame designer at on-one but also posts on here and generally gets involved if people report problems. He did 'marketing' for on-one for a while too, amongst other things.
Then I also mentioned that I will share my experience on different MTB-forums.
From working for a different large online cycle retailer, I can assure you that has no bearing on how the case was handled.
OP had sympathy with you up to this point. No longer, OO honour warranty but replacement fails and you threaten blackmail? - I'd tell you flip right off.
I'm sure they are busy, but they did respond. The brake 'works', as in stops the bike but it doesn't return so once applied the arm stay locked against the wheel.
Shimano brakes are different.