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Having spent far too much time on zwift over the past few months I've decided to bin the turbo for a few weeks and get out on a proper ride.
Did 90 min today, it was cold, windy, slow, and generally unpleasant. Mudguards and some top end winter kit made it slightly less miserable but still not much fun.
2 things stood out.. how much I miss riding with my mates, especially when weather is like that. And how much slower it is when the conditions are miserable. I didn't break 16 mph today, in the summer on same loop I'm over 18-19 for same power.
However our trails are deep in mud and puddles at the moment, so road is *better* until they can dry out a touch.
I did a couple of hours on the road yesterday, for the first time in months, and it was bloody brilliant.
Despite a bit of spray and a headwind some of the time.
I would find Zwifting utterly miserable though, so perhaps it depends on your personality.
Did 70 miles yesterday, forecast was 10% chance of rain, rained for 60 of those miles. Was with a mate which made it better but was still wet and cold and I had dressed for the forecast weather not the actual weather.
Lets call it character building, 90 mins on zwift would have been nicer, but I'd never manage more than that indoors so good that I got out.
I went around at over 18 mph as a pair at a fairly easy pace. Did a slightly longer version of the same loop in the summer in a group of about 6 at over 20 mph.
It certainly takes a different mindset to ride in the winter, I do quite like it but it's definitely type 2 fun.
There's a very good reason why I do a lot of running in the winter months...
I would find Zwifting utterly miserable though, so perhaps it depends on your personality.
One is cycling, the other is doing a hamster impersonation. I know which I prefer.
I don't normally road ride this time of year but went out last week, the roads were at peak tractor mud/leaf sludge, horrible. The Wattbike arrives later this week and I'll probably leave the roads until Christamas Hols by which time they tend to have cleared up even though I've just had full Guards fitted on the winter bike.
I get a masochistic enjoyment out of winter road riding. Even on the grimmest, greyest day it's still better than sitting around getting fat. There's always something to see that reminds me what a beautiful planet we live on and how fortunate I am. Picked a kilo of bullaces on my ride yesterday, which will go into some gin that will make the winter months a bit more bearable.
My last road ride was grey, drizzly, a bit breezy and the roads were slimy in places. Oh and my legs always shut down below about 7 degrees so pace goes through the floor. No it's not as nice as breezing along on a warm summer's day, but for me it's a whole lot better than pretending to be riding a bike while sat in my garage.
Meh, still averaging 100+ miles a week on the road at the mo. As long as its not lashing down I quite enjoy it. Had the first couple of sub zero rides this last week.
Looking forward to a return to group riding and cafe stops in the next few weeks though.
Trying to put indoor training off as long as I can...
I do find I like to go somewhere on a winter ride, it feels like it puts a purpose to the ride rather than just going for a loop.
That is just doing a short, sharp thrash.
The driving at this time of year is usually a special type of utterly abysmal as well.
Not sure if it's people still unused to driving in the dark after a summer of not having to, the bad weather not factoring in their decision to overtake with 3" to spare, the extra shite on the roads pushing you further out into "their" lane or what but yes, I hear where you're coming from!
Getting out the door is often half the battle, I loathe high winds so if I see the trees bent at 45degrees, it's often a struggle to get out. Often, it's never that bad in the end and enjoy it, just choose the route carefully.
Must admit, going on the club run makes it much more enjoyable (we're in tier 2 Scotland, still allowed under Scottish cycling and government guidelines) in the winter, bit more social and wind less of a bugger when you get your turn at the back. Plus, if I've signed up, I feel I'm committed, even if the weather looks pish on the day!
And how much slower it is when the conditions are miserable. I didn’t break 16 mph today, in the summer on same loop I’m over 18-19 for same power.
It's 16 mph faster than being sat on the sofa...
I admit I'm finding it hard to get motivated: I miss the social aspect and I miss the mid-ride cafe stop.
Im pretty new to the road thing really, lockdown has seen me more on a gravel bike than MTB due to where I live. Two hours yesterday in a bit of rain, srong headwinds, bib tights and a helmet with no peak! Really enjoying it, no amount of money spent on an indoor set up appeals to me but horses for courses or bikes for courses.
85 miles yesterday. Pretty nice other than a rogue hail shower.
First 50 miles were almost all into the wind and included 6000 feet of climbing. Was averaging a truly pedestrian 12mph by the end of that lot!
I commented in the 100 Days thread that I was pushing to average 22kph yesterday. Wind, temperatures, tyres, clothing, heavier bike. All have an effect.
I think November is the worst month for road cycling. The roads tend to have more mud from the farms and decomposing leaves so there's just less fun to be had.
didn’t break 16 mph today
That's me pretty much every ride regardless of the weather or season.
I went out yesterday, 100km.
I went to a well known cafe to see if it was still as terrible as I remember, and gratifyingly, it was worse.
Ran out of sugar horribly towards the end, but stumbled across a garage which sold CHOCOLATE COATED FLAPJACK!!!!
Scoffed that after which I was FLYING (admittedly it was also downhill with a following wind from there).
It's always slower than the Summer, but I would never swap it for a turbo.
I went out yesterday on the road (yes that’s a road in Shropshire)
Slower than summer, but the roads were more fun as basically mud baths. Avg 14.5 mph, and just as tired as a summer ride averaging 19/20 mph.
As with some others, I’d far rather be out in some weather than sitting indoors staring at a computer screen—I spend most of my waking life doing that anyway.
Personally I’ve gone right off mountain biking in the winter: just too much hassle cleaning bikes and kit off afterwards and then drying it so that it doesn’t either rust or stink. Road is just a case of get back in, let the toes warm up while having a beer, and then jump in the shower.
Driving standards do always seem to suck in November more than other months (presumably Neanderthals still getting their heads round the clocks changing) but careful route choice and a gravel bike makes for being able to avoid it a fair bit.
I went out with my wife at lunchtime. She was very slow, I won't be doing that again in this weather.
Preference in order of miserable-ness
1. mountain bike ride
2. MTB in the cold
3. MTB in rain
4. Road ride
5. Road in cold
6. Road in rain
7. rollers/turbo
Just back from a fairly high intensity 50km. Felt relaxed and fit, very little traffic and nobody tried to kill me. Win. Feels like I’ve reset my brain and ready to do another few hours work. Love it.
82 miles for me yesterday. Was a glorious ride, sunny, hardly any wind, not many cars. Met a pal and did 40 miles and a coffee stop together, then I did the rest solo.
I honestly love this time of year, road riding in autumn and spring down here in the chilterns is awesome!
I am now of the age where I no longer go out in all weathers though.
I tend to try and do 80/20, 80% outside proper riding but long and steady in zone 2 either roads or on mountain bike, and 20% HIIT work, usually on turbo, but sometimes by riding singlespeed road bike and attacking climbs, and cruising the downs.
It can be miserable, averaged 19mph to coast on saturday, and then 11 on way back due to 40mph gusting winds.
BUT, as someone who works at his dining room table all week and barely has left rural village since March, if i didn't ride bike or the odd family walk, i'd be climbing the walls if i couldn't get out
just too much hassle cleaning bikes and kit off afterwards
Yeah, kit more than bikes. I'll happily hose if the bike (if it's particularly manky) and stick it in the garage but riding almost every day results in a huge pile of dirty kit (which reminds me, must get off this phone and sort some out).
I will add that my rule for winter road riding is a take on Keith Bontrager's rules for bike kit (cheap, strong, light, pick 2).
Wind, rain, cold, any 2 is fine, all 3 is grim and should ideally be avoided.
Turbo is a grim slog. However actually racing people on Zwift is reasonbly fun, and is better than a shit* outdoor ride.
But I can't do it all the time, I have to get outside regardless. Did 15 sodden muddy 'gravel' miles on Saturday and it was glorious. But I will be Zwifting til the weekend with race night on Wednesday.
* by shit I mean either windy on the road or really muddy off road. I hate wind because it robs you of most of the benefit of road riding which is zipping along quickly; and mud off-road has a similar effect, meaning you can't ride anywhere near as well and you get filthy. Ok maybe if you had 2.6 Marys on it'd be better but my XC bike doesn't
cheer yourself up by wearing a brighter colour
You guys are managing some serious speed in not the best conditions - I did 85k yesterday with 90% of it on roads that looked like tracks and was coated in crap (probably literally) and still only managed 29kph av. I also abandoned the last 15k of the ride as my knee was really starting to play up.
I've tried and failed before as per the OP - I find winter road riding thorouhgly awful. I'd MUCH rather be skidding and slipping around in muddy slop on the MTB.
Whilst I enjoy ANY ride off road, the only enjoyably road riding to me is Summer (evening?), smooth road, no wind, no traffic, warm sun, just bibs and s/s jersey, the 'perfect' conditions.
My own version of @nickc chart would go like:
1. MTB ride
2. MTB in the cold
3. MTB in rain
4. Road ride in the Sun
5. Turbo on Zwift
6. Road in cold
7. Walk.
99. 'Dumb' Turbo looking at back of garage door.
100. Road ride in cold, rain and wind (AKA Winter).
only managed 29kph av
Only?
@Kryton57 I feel your pain. Tried to do an evening ride about two weeks ago with my OH. I generally average 17.5mph and we were managing 14.2mph when my fella made some dig about me always dashing off (beyond 5 metres) so we then managed a phenomenal 13.6mph.... I couldn't stand in the shower afterwards as my feet were so painful!!
Some road rides lately I feel like a proper rebel going out in it when I know so many others won't. Yesterdays ride along a lane which had just been trimmed wasn't one of those occurances, especially after 30 miles the day before and the fact it was a smidge too cool for my outfit.
You guys are managing some serious speed in not the best conditions – I did 85k yesterday with 90% of it on roads that looked like tracks and was coated in crap (probably literally) and still only managed 29kph av
29kph is 18mph...if I could do that for 85km in the winter id be delighted. As per my op, I managed 15.7 mph today, on an albeit fairly hilly, 25 mile ride. I was not exactly pootling either according to my power numbers.
For me road vs turbo is a toss up. The biggest barrier to road riding is motivation to step out your cosy house. I have a good turbo set up however, so just sitting on that for an hr indoors is always pretty appealing.
still only managed 29kph av
Daffy, king of the humble-braggers! 😀
Did my semi-regular sort-of outdoor sweetspot loop today, wind was all over the place, some blatty rain came and went, roads were a mess, but I have all the right gear and kept it short, felt great. 16mph with headwinds and hills for what it's worth 😉
Happily I ALSO enjoy turbo/rollers although keep it short and sweet, usually 20 minutes max warm-up and longest workout will be 3x15min sweetspots.
Also will be leaning quite heavily on the CX bike for some short, sharp outdoor sessions, just to keep the handling skills sharp/from deteriorating any further...
Daffy, king of the humble-braggers!
Yep, I was quite happy with my 25.1km/h average (about 15.5mph) for yesterday.
But now I feel all inadequate.
It was quite hilly though. And there were a lot of leaves on the road in places.
When winter comes I find road riding really grim. Its at this time of year that gravel riding (or light off road) really comes into its own. A couple of hours of forrest track or bridleway is far better than wet and muddy roads on a skinny bike and with less faff than an MTB.
It's just expectations Vs reality innit.
Ignore all those Rapha lifestyle ****er ad's doing the rounds on YT, and cut back on the zwift. Real life isn't as glossy but it has it's own rewards.
The extra bit of effort necessary to get your arse out riding in the winter is worth it for the smug feeling that comes with actually doing something, and coming home half exhausted, while others are just tucked up inside watching netflix and gobbling Maltesers.
A bit of cold weather isn't actually that bad, it's when it's already cold and then starts to properly rain, that is truly demoralising. When you reach the saturation point of your clothing and know you still have half an hour of hypothermia inducing riding into a headwind until you can get back home...
At any time of year but especially in the winter average speed is a pretty pointless metric. Measuring time and intensity makes a lot more sense. Stops you worrying about slow heavy bikes, headwinds or hills or even off/on road bias. Come back after a 4 hour ride (or whatever time you planned) with hr/power average that you are happy with and feel good about yourself.
Also mudguards - best ever invention for enjoyable winter rides on the road.
And in the winter it’s cold out there so you can eat more. Because science.
I honestly love this time of year, road riding in autumn and spring down here in the chilterns is awesome!
Hell yeah.
I have binned zwift at the moment (for weekends). It has turned me into a bit of a pussy and the slightest bit of bad weather would drive me to ride indoors.
Have been out loads in all conditions and have been really enjoying it.
MTB gets covered in mud but doesn't take long to clean.
I had Friday off and today and tomorrow. I challenged myself to do 5x2hr rides over the course of the 5days. Did MTB Fri, Sat & Sun a road ride today and still undecided about tomorrow.
Legs are hurting but it has been great to get out.
Ridden roughly the same road route the last 3 weeks, as the cafe at the end does great takeaway cakes and coffees.
Ride with a mate this week, and despite 30+mph wind, it was so much better than being out in my own.
Does anyone else have serious hill and corner phobias on the road in these conditions? I look back at segments on Strava and can't help but notice just how much of a pussy I am when it comes to descending compared to others who have done the same segment on the same day. I just have no faith that I can stop or steer when i'ts wet/leafy/muddy.
Partially this comes from riding into the back of a stationary car when descending at 55kph in not too distant past, but I'm not sure that's all of it.
Roadie = masochist
What I have found min, is that sticking with it during the winter pays dividends come spring time runs with mates.
My hips have made me think twice about cold road work nowadays. Maybe when I get my Titanium / carbon ceramic new hips I'll get back to it with gusto lol.
Does anyone else have serious hill and corner phobias on the road in these conditions?
Absolutely yes.
I'm pretty sharp downhill and through the corners normally, it makes up for my lack of pace up hill. But on wet roads with leaves and mud I am not great. I'm OK with that though, I'd rather be cautious then end up on my backside.
Does anyone else have serious hill and corner phobias on the road in these conditions?
As seen from this thread, just by being out there you (we) have already confirmed you are in the top tier of ultimate bad-asses, so there is nothing further to prove. Chill, and bask in your super toughness, pootle down hills and round corners and gloat at those who hide indoors while you face the elements.
Also mudguards – best ever invention for enjoyable winter rides on the road
I wouldn't even consider going out between the months of Nov and March without them nowadays. Even the raceblades on my defy kept me clean today, without them it would have been filthy. Full length proper guards even better..need to order some
Add to the list of essential gear winter boots. Just replaced my old shimano's with some northwave, so at least my feet were warm.
Come back after a 4 hour ride (or whatever time you planned) with hr/power average that you are happy with and feel good about yourself.
I don't quite agree with this bit though..you are right in that power is power regardless of speed, but I find putting out ftp into a freezing cold headwind and going no more than 12 mph a thoroughly depressing exp!
Does anyone else have serious hill and corner phobias on the road in these conditions?
No. And I ride 25mm Bontager slicks all year. You're grip is degraded by far less than you imagine.
Wet roots though ! bastards.
Does anyone else have serious hill and corner phobias on the road in these conditions?
Yeah, seems like common sense really, the risk just isn't worth it. I still get all my cornering jollies playing in the mud on the CX bike, where every corner is a guaranteed slide but with a soft landing if required!
Sadly I can't really get my head around the coffee stops, apart from lack of time (my riding time is too limited at the moment to be able to spare 45 minutes sitting around) I also struggle to warm up again afterwards, and no matter what clothing I'm in I've always worked up enough of a sweat that I'll be sitting slightly damp and/or cooling down. Just not pleasant. I might stop for a hasty double espresso and tray bake if I see somewhere convenient...
cheer yourself up by wearing a brighter colour
Underrated post 🙂
cheer yourself up by wearing a brighter colour
JoB has swallowed The Little Book of Calm. 😀
Sadly I can’t really get my head around the coffee stops
*virtual fist bump
You and me both. I'm going out to ride, not to have a cuppa. I'll do that when I get home.
Might consider it if the ride were longer than four hours, but still against my better judgement.
JoB has swallowed The Little Book of Calm.
Genuine LOL, now hearing his post in Bill Bailey's voice.
13thFloorMonk - coffee and cake are the reason to ride! I won’t stop unless I’m on a ride of a decent length (50 miles or more). Also if the weather is bad and there is no indoor seating then I’ll continue the ride, but there’s nothing better than a nice coffee and a cake when it’s pouring down....also nothing worse than putting on your wet gloves, hat and going back out into the cold and the rain!! But at least I’ll have had a cake!
I almost always switch to running during Winter as I find cycling in Winter pretty awful. Constant cleaning, listening to the grit chewing through your rims and god knows what else, having to charge lights, loads and loads of kit to sort all really put me off to the point it hardly seems worth it.
But I am one of those weird people who quite enjoys the turbo trainer so this winter will hedge my bets on a 50/50 running/turbo regime and so perhaps will still retain enough fitness to head out for the odd proper bike ride if the weather is alright.
Glad to hear I'm not the only who is just somehow slower in the winter months...or is that because you're all on winter bikes? I use the same road bike year round but feel like I can't push as hard in the cold and wet, not sure if its all in my head?!
@golfchick that was pretty much how it went, without me able to generate enough effort to keep my fingers warm through some fairly substantial gloves!
Get a gravel bike........
Great for the winter. Yesterday I got the bus to Braemar from Aberdeen and cycled home on a mixture of roads and tracks. Tailwind all the way and pleasant cafe stops on route.
Whereas for me this
Having spent far too much time on zwift over the past few months
is misery personified
Cycling inside a house is just not cycling to me and I would never do it. The only time of the year I don't go out cycling is when it is around 0 degrees or less as I have fallen off more times than I want to due to hitting ice.
I went out with my wife at lunchtime. She was very slow, I won’t be doing that again in this weather.
Rides with mrs_oab involve me wearing one more layer, the thicker gloves and extra socks.
She isn't slow, it is just not fast enough to generate heat at times for me.
All the more reason to enjoy the view and where we are.
I'm with you on the gravel bike, even if you're sticking mainly to road, means you can get a larger, more comfortable, more puncture resistant tyre in frame and still have space for mudguards.
misery epitomised rather than personified #pedant
Sadly I can’t really get my head around the coffee stops, apart from lack of time (my riding time is too limited at the moment to be able to spare 45 minutes sitting around) I also struggle to warm up again afterwards, and no matter what clothing I’m in I’ve always worked up enough of a sweat that I’ll be sitting slightly damp and/or cooling down. Just not pleasant. I might stop for a hasty double espresso and tray bake if I see somewhere convenient…
Same here, once I'm out I need to keep rolling if I stop That'll be the end of me...
Plus are Cafes even open ATM?
13thFloorMonk – coffee and cake are the reason to ride! I won’t stop unless I’m on a ride of a decent length (50 miles or more). Also if the weather is bad and there is no indoor seating then I’ll continue the ride, but there’s nothing better than a nice coffee and a cake when it’s pouring down….also nothing worse than putting on your wet gloves, hat and going back out into the cold and the rain!! But at least I’ll have had a cake!
A small bar bag or pannier with flask, home made cake, down jackets and seat pads in and you are good to go. Bus shelter or under trees FTW when it rains, Spare buff at gloves natch.
We have been in one cafe since February - that was two weeks ago as we hit freezing fog and all three of us were shivering cold.
@mrb123 oof. That’s some lumpiness. I was feeling it when I rode home from west wales yesterday. 3600’ in the first 31miles with my average down around 11.5mph. I was pleased that the route levelled out a bit and the remaining 65 miles only had 2500’. Meant my average picked up to 16 mph too. Ha!
But it was great road riding. I have zero interest in zwift. I ride bikes to be outdoors and the weather is part of that. Of course a sunny ride on the best bike is much faster and in some ways more pleasant but both have their rewards.
https://flic.kr/p/2k9JJ54
Pizza for @matt_outandabout
https://flic.kr/p/2k9JLbP
Best winter road riding memory is actually a miserable weather ride from Stirling to Edinburgh through the Campsies, but everything came together, I got the layering right, the waterproofing right, the snacking right (bits of Christmas cake in foil in back pocket), everything. Was on the singlespeed with 32mm tyres and big mudguards, I really need to break it back out of storage and prepare the knees for some more singlespeed epics in the rain...
I ride mtb and gravel, during the winter season I’ll rarely (if at all) use the full susser - it’s just pointless and I love my bike too much!
My gravel bike on the other hand - it takes a beating and I’ll ride it off road in thick leg burning mud. It is a drag cleaning down after every ride but I also love that bike too much to skip the maintenance therefore I still go out and enjoy the ride whatever the conditions and feel great for it a few hours later when I’m sipping a beer.
Riding has so many benefits physically and mentally for me, personally I believe you get the best benefit from exercising/adventuring outdoors
I've found recently that a mixture of Zwift on really grim days, 'gravel' on grey/damp days and on nicer dry days getting out on the road (on the 'grave' / do it all winter bike) is the best blend. Don't have a lot of appetite for slogging away on wet/slimy roads on windy days. I find Zwift hard work unless I join a group ride which makes everything far more enjoyable and social.
The toughest mile on a shitty winter's day is the first one. Once I'm out, I'm out, but looking through the window and finding the impetus can be a challenge.
I'm also +1 on the coffee stop although do enjoy that for the social aspect on a club run. Getting cold stood outside a cafe currently isn't a high priority.
The thing I dread is punctures. Cold, dirty, time consuming, don't know if you've found the right piece of grit or not......
As for being a bit more careful cornering and descending. A reminder I gave myself yesterday as I briefly noted my rear wheel trying to overtake me as I braked suddenly for an oncoming car down a grimy Surrey lane near Tilford yesterday. Fortunately as a MTBer I haz skillz.
Riding on the road is miserable.
That's why roadies are so obsessed about being fast - so that they get the misery over and done with as quickly as possible. 🙂
Oh you stirrer. 😁
I don't think cold is much of a problem if you wear the right kit. I reckon what you wear is more important than the bike you pedal. It always feels a bit nippy setting out but once warmed up you should be OK. Headwinds are getting a bit strong just now but then doing round trip there's a tailwind to compensate.
Got it wrong last week though. 8 miles from home it began to drizzle slightly. No matter, press on it's not far, no point stopping to put on rain jacket and waterproof gloves. Ended up in a downpour very wet and very cold. Still it was a good excuse for a hot bath plus hot chocolate and brandy.
I've not been out for 5+ weeks, but I crammed in a ~100min ride this afternoon up Beacon Hill. Lanes weren't in as great condition as summer, but they were better than expected...
As were my stats until ~1.5 miles from home, when my legs suddenly went and I've felt like death since getting in just before 1700.
Despite how I feel now, it reminded me of how much I miss escaping to the wilderness, something I've been unable to do much of this year and rarely do Nov-Mar.
Today was a good day to be out - 100km of sunshine.
I was doubting things a little the other day, when I got a flat that the tubeless wouldn’t sort. So I popped the tyre off, checked for sharps, threw in a tube, tidied up, but the bike back together, and then went to inflate.
And the short valve in the tube I was carrying didn’t stick out of the new deeper wheels. So I couldn’t. Arse.
And was cold. And needed to Phone A Friend. I got very cold.
Did I mention the cold? But all operator error - today’s ride was great.
I do think I should get back on the gravel bike too though.
That’s why roadies are so obsessed about being fast – so that they get the misery over and done with as quickly as possible. 🙂
There's definitely some truth in this. The biggest climb of my ride today took me 8 and a half min, rather than the 7 it would take in summer for same power output. So basically, 20 % more suffering and misery because I'm going slower..
I didn’t break 16 mph today, in the summer on same loop I’m over 18-19 for same power.
Maybe try a more positive viewpoint, stop obsessing about the numbers? you were outside, not getting muddy, getting some of your fitness back?
How didn't you benefit from a tailwind at any time?
I went up the Pentlands last weekend, now THAT was miserable...😂
How didn’t you benefit from a tailwind at any time?
I'm sure I did at some point. But let's face it, you lose alot more time riding into a headwind than you gain when you turn the other way ..
I know it's trite but, there's no such thing as the wrong conditions, just the wrong gear 😉
This is the first winter of a permanent career break for me (note: not 'retirement', that's for old people 😀) and we've been going mad. Loads of tandeming until SWMBO got a bout of sciatica and plenty of road/gravel (but zero MTB).
Our hit rate started to drop a few weeks ago when the weather changed until I decided '**** it, we'll go whatever...'. And that's what we've been doing; wind, rain, shine or shite. It's a mindset. Forget about average speed, the wind etc and just knuckle down to it. Wear the right kit to keep warm and feed/hydrate properly. It's like 'proper' riding just a bit more so 😉
Winter road riding is fine with me, I quite like riding in the rain. Although not combined with strong winds.
What I dont like is being on the road in those hours when sun is really low, I always feel at risk of being taken out by blinded drivers. Also super-concious of this when behind the wheel myself.
I'm very much in the cautious camp when it comes to descending and bends, especially outside summer.
The South Downs lanes where I ride can massively change at this time of year from one day to the next, with the cold; damp; windy conditions. Not to mention I had no idea today how my tyres would grip in the drizzle and leaf litter, plus there's often those psychotic pheasants around!