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Not again 🙁
How about minding your own business.
Unreal. I don't care who wears a helmet or not, but the denial is simply breathtaking.
Your skull is 6.5mm thick.
Dont undersell yourself I am sure you are much thicker than that 😉
So something that cracked a helmet might not necessarily crack your skull..
It would result in a lesser injury with the helmet than without it and that is the point and not a guess.
Unreal. I don't care who wears a helmet or not, but the denial is simply breathtaking.
Your skull is 6.5mm thick.
6.5mm of bone not 25mm of polystyrene
Take an egg and crush it end on. yet egg shell is so easy to break. you may or may not be aware that different materials have different properties.
split helmet, which means it failed to do its job
regardles what i think about the helmet debate, you don't need to worry either way.
It would result in a lesser injury with the helmet than without it and that is the point and not a guess.
Precisely.
Dont undersell yourself I am sure you are much thicker than that
Apparently womens skulls are thicker so you probably are as well. Big girl. 😀
the helmet may of helped, it might not, i don't know, no one can know, that is the point.
What i do know is that hip ****ing hurt for a fortnight and i couldn't bare weight on my right hip.
Head was fine no headache, but that you have been the mud i came down in or it might have been the helmet.
Take an egg and crush it end on. yet egg shell is so easy to break. you may or may not be aware that different materials have different properties.
Yes. Things which are harder generally crack (like an egg). Softer things tend to compress (like foam). It's only an opinion but I reckon if you've split open a hard shell helmet with foam lighting, you'd certainly have done some damage to your head.
Your skull is 6.5mm thick.
And surprisingly good at its job. Almost like it evolved that way.
A helmet is designed to split. A skull isn't.
Split helmet does not mean split skull.
It would result in a lesser injury with the helmet than without it and that is the point and not a guess.
Yep. I've split helmets on what were painful crashes and they would have undoubtedly been even more painful without a helmet. But I very much doubt they'd have split my skull.
My last helmet got split after some feral Edinburgh yoofs thought it would be amusing to drop a large potato on my head as I cycled under an old railway bridge. 😆
"My last helmet got split after some feral Edinburgh yoofs thought it would be amusing to drop a large potato on my head as I cycled under an old railway bridge."
That was TJ trying to prove a point.
If I don't want to read all that, has somebody made an amazing point which will sway me from my current position? Or is it the same old same old?
I'm currently working on the assumption that people who still partake in 'debate' on helmet threads have recently sustained a head injury.
It would result in a lesser injury with the helmet than without it and that is the point and not a guess.
Yep, I should think that a helmet has saved me a trip to A&E before now. I also would've been saved a trip to A&E had I been wearing arm & knee guards, yet no-one bangs on about those as essential safety equipment.
I don't get the hatred towards cyclists without helmets. Very few people in their lifetimes will hit their head that hard. Most of us will get a few knocks, but who doesn't? That's all part and parcel of life.
On a bike, everything feels all too real with the wind through your [s]hair[/s] vents in your helmet, but going back to the car example, where you could actually wear a proper helmet that is built primarily to save your life (rather than be comfortable when you're sweating your boobies off on a big climb), it would probably save just as many people. Probably more, given that so many more people drive each day.
And on that note, why not wear a proper helmet on a bike, rather than these lightweight paper mache things that could potentially do more harm than good? If people are going to get on their high horse, they might as well do it properly.
It's amazing the stir caused by cycle helmets. And not just among cyclists either. It's just something to get irrate at people for.
I wear my helmet all the time, so I'm not anti-helmet at all - quite the opposite...but I respect anyones choice to not wear one. There's plenty of other things likely to kill them first.
3 pages already. Stop it!!!!
A helmet is designed to split. A skull isn't.
Split helmet does not mean split skull.
to repeat , it does mean it is likely you were injured and it just saved your from some blunt face trauma , that, whilst possibly not life threatening, would have hurt a lot.
PS how did the blind watchmaker know about the need for skulls good enough to withstand MTB crashes - is it yet more proof of intelligent designe]
o repeat , it does mean it is likely you were injured and it just saved your from some blunt face trauma , that, whilst possibly not life threatening, would have hurt a lot.
Yep, I acknowledged that in the next bit, but wrecker did originally say [i]"you'd have cracked your skull...How could it not? "[/i].
(I do like the notion of a "blunt face trauma" though - a particularly nasty crash for the aesthetically-challenged 😀 )
So if you split your helmet, what do you do on the ride home? Do you just parcel tape the remnants to your hair?? Or **Gasp** do you ride home helmet-less?
you walk and be sure not to tread in any puddles.
risk compensation is my criteria about safety equipment-- if i was racing a cycle, my risks and others are increased, off road there are more risks, so i would wear a helmet.
everyday cycling i choose not to wear a helmet, have so far survived .
Statistically pedestrians and occupants of motor vehicles involved in incidents do sustain a fair number of head injuries-- are people calling for helmets for all at all times......
in the house there are a number of risks..........
why are our choices in life these days open to so much scrutiny and judgement?
incidentally I agree with those who choose to base decisions on their own self assessment of risk. and this is what I do too.
100.
[img] 
[/img]
I like that article GrahamS.
i used to rock climb without ropes.
sometimes the risk is worth it
I like that article GrahamS.
Good innit? Decent mag all round that for commuting/urban/utility cycling.
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
Why people refuse to wear helmets?
Odd title, what makes you think they've 'refused'?
I've never been asked, and therefore have never ever refused. Still don't wear one though.
somedays I don't fancy wearing one, no rhyme or reason....Really wonder why people (particularly older blokes with those silly little roadie caps) insist on not wearing a helmet.
Can I just say this is the first time I've appeared on a helmet thread?
Can I just say this is the first time I've appeared on a helmet thread?
No, I'm sorry, there isn't time.
Over to Leicester East!
Really wonder why people (particularly older blokes with those silly little roadie caps) insist on not wearing a helmet.
I do wonder why some A4 drivers insist on taking a bike to a cafe in a wood, makes no sense to me, it is not as though they actually ride the bike.
never posted on a helmet debate before...keen to have my tuppence worth!
Like many, I don't give a shit if someone wears a helmet or not, totally up to them, as long as their choices don't negatively impact on me.
I would however be fairly annoyed if I had to stop at the side of the trail and attend to someone who had cracked their head open/concussed themselves whilst not wearing a helmet...call me harsh, but sympathy would be very limited.
Like many I don't care if someone else wears a helmet or not. I have been saved from serious head injuries whilst wearing a helmet - conversely have also had serious facial injuries whilst wearing a full face... However I wear a helmet each time I ride and make the mini-JAMJ's wear them also.
I also don't care though about what mandating the use of helmets has done in Australia or elsewhere - bloody lame argument as far as I am concerned. Whether it lessens or increases participation - I really don't give a monkeys! I have been riding since 1987 and whether rider numbers have been up or down has not affected my riding pleasure one iota.
I rarely wade into the helmet argument, because it's like banging your head on a wall, but I read an interview with James Cracknell, a man whose life was saved by a helmet
[img] 
[/img]
This James Cracknell? The one not wearing a helmet? In the spirit of helmet thread speculation I'll speculate that if he had been using a mirror he could have avoided the truck hitting him altogether by swerving to the nearside, if necessary off the road. I've done it myself.
This James Cracknell? The one not wearing a helmet? In the spirit of helmet thread speculation I'll speculate that if he had been using a mirror he could have avoided the truck hitting him altogether by swerving to the nearside, if necessary off the road. I've done it myself.
I'd also point out that he may have noticed the truck bearing down on him if he hadn't deliberately sleep-deprived himself.
In the spirit of helmet thread speculation I'll speculate that if he had been using a mirror he could have avoided the truck hitting him altogether by swerving to the nearside, if necessary off the road. I've done it myself.
Yes but however uncool you look with a helmet on you look quadruply uncool with a mirror on you bike; and lets face it its better to die looking cool then to survive whilst having a mirror on your bike.
pbiker - MemberI would however be fairly annoyed if I had to stop at the side of the trail and attend to someone who had cracked their head open/concussed themselves whilst not wearing a helmet...call me harsh, but sympathy would be very limited.
Sounds like you've not read any of the links. It's really not that simple.
I would however be fairly annoyed if I had to stop at the side of the trail and attend to someone who had cracked their head open/concussed themselves whilst not wearing a helmet...call me harsh, but sympathy would be very limited.
But how would you feel if they broke their wrist whilst not wearing wrist guards? Or cracked their neck whilst not wearing a neck brace? Or, gasp, split their head whilst wearing a helmet?
whether rider numbers have been up or down has not affected my riding pleasure one iota
I think you're missing the thrust of that argument. It's not about "riding pleasure", it's about overall public health and also safety in numbers for riders on the road.
I wore a helmet on Sunday's off-road ride and generally wear one when commuting.
Didn't wear one this morning while travelling to the docs. It's nice to have the choice...
Do we have the swing at Luton?
Thread in general tl;dr.
I did read a post that said helmets don't work above 15mph. Pff. You crash into a bus at 20mph+ and tell me whether you would rather have a helmet on or not. Fact is, you are far better off wearing a helmet than not.
However, doesn't mean everyone has to. Not everyone rides in traffic or fast. If I ride to the shop I don't bother.
Sounds like you've not read any of the links. It's really not that simple.
Of course I haven't...surely thats half the fun of posting on here??
In all seriousness however, whilst I'm not saying that a helmet will guarantee to prevent serious injury, I don't believe for a second that it won't lesson the damage to some degree. Having said that I don't think I have ever seen anyone on my local trails who hasn't been wearing a helmet, so for me its fairly irrelevant either way.
Its always a lively debate when people talk about helmets.
I do believe in freedom of choice but did split a helmet in two at the start of the year. I therefore may or may not have been able to write this and that was on a pootle I knew well.
A friend of mine now wears a helmet rather than not after I discuss this with him.
It largely depends on what accident you plan to have wether the helmet helps or indeed may hinder. I think its for bumps not head on into cars, trees etc.
Arguments are not cool, too hot, only riding a short distance.
On the cool side its a lot less cool having someone else wipe your arse as you dribble your spoon fed dinner down your cheeks.
I am not even sure if the testing of helmets is relevant, would it change peoples minds if they knew more and a real world study was done.
Personally I dont go without. It just might, and I say might save my life or save me from a more serious injury than if I didnt wear one.
I wouldnt ride with someone who didnt wear one. I would be frustrated having to help someone with a head injury if they hadntwore a helmet but would still help.
With the society as it is, health and safety it will only be a matter of time before it does become compulsory. What then, stop riding or wear a helmet.
Fact is, you are far better off wearing a helmet than not.
Fact eh? Care to share a link to that conclusive peer reviewed scientific data?
It largely depends on what accident you plan to have
🙂
On the cool side its a lot less cool having someone else wipe your arse as you dribble your spoon fed dinner down your cheeks.I am not even sure if the testing of helmets is relevant, would it change peoples minds if they knew more and a real world study was done.
Personally I dont go without. It just might, and I say might save my life or save me from a more serious injury than if I didnt wear one.
I wouldnt ride with someone who didnt wear one. I would be frustrated having to help someone with a head injury if they hadntwore a helmet but would still help.
With the society as it is, health and safety it will only be a matter of time before it does become compulsory. What then, stop riding or wear a helmet.
Does your argument hold true for people just walking? If not, why? I know someone who died banging their head just from falling over. My sister suffered a severe brain injury just falling down the stairs. She wasn't wearing a helmet. I don't personally know a single person who's suffered a head injury whilst bike riding. I'm 47.
Edit: And my partner works in a large hospital.
I've never commented on a helmet thread before either but I had to after noticing the picture quote way back on the first page.
By Charles Mingus, no doubt known as Charlie to his friends 😆
It appears that even without the much maligned TJ, STW is capable of having a helmet thread.
Couple of questions;
If you got a head injury while wearing a helmet, would you sue the helmet manufacturer?
If helmets were shown by rigorous peer reviewed scientific data to be of no effect in preventing head injuries, would you wear one?
I got a proper full on scowl the other day from a chap riding with his son. Both had helmets on, I didn't. Trouble was, in scowling so vehemently at me, he rode into a dip at the side of the road and almost fell off...
I know someone who died banging their head just from falling over. My sister suffered a severe brain injury just falling down the stairs. She wasn't wearing a helmet. I don't personally know a single person who's suffered a head injury whilst bike riding. I'm 47.
coming out with an argument as mathematically daft as this surely indicates that you yourself have experienced a head injury whilst riding, so severe that you are unaware of the terrible effect it has had on your ability to apply logic..
But how would you feel if they broke their wrist whilst not wearing wrist guards? Or cracked their neck whilst not wearing a neck brace? Or, gasp, split their head whilst wearing a helmet?
I see you're point, biking is never going to be entirely safe. But for me I weigh up the risk and make an informed choice on what I feel is 'bare minimum' protection, and that in my mind is a helmet. It also appears that the vast majority of people were I ride agree, given I've never seen someone on the trails without one. If you can't be arsed wearing one then don't expect me to show sympathy when I see you crumbled at the side of the road with a head injury.
..question for everybody questioning whether there is any benefit in wearing a helmet whatsoever(tucker etc) . Do you ever wear one off road, visiting a trail centre etc? Or is it a blanket no helmet approach regardless of terrain?
[i]If you can't be arsed wearing one then don't expect me to show sympathy when I see you crumbled at the side of the road with a head injury.[/i]
Classy.
So if I didn't have knee pads on you'd show no sympathy when I hurt my knee?
So if I didn't wear a Leatt neck brace thingy you'd show no sympathy if I hurt my neck?
I'd stop and help anyone who was injured, however silly they may have been, but I'm not a ****.
Edit: And my partner works in a large hospital.
Statistically irrelevant post of the thread!
[i]Do you ever wear one off road, visiting a trail centre etc? Or is it a blanket no helmet approach regardless of terrain? [/i]
Some of us are old enough to remember riding when helmets didn't exist, should we have waited for them to be invented before daring to venture out?
I wasn't wearing ankle protection today, and I very slightly hurt my ankle a bit. 😥 Can I get some sympathy???
Only really hurts if I do this #now does this# OWWW!
In the same way that I would wear a helmet in a car whilst on a trackday but not during everyday driving, if I'm going for a proper ride then I wear a helmet. Taking the dog around the local common, usually not. To those who always, always wear a helmet - do you feel nervous sitting on a bike without one? If so, why?
[i]Couple of questions;
If you got a head injury while wearing a helmet, would you sue the helmet manufacturer?
If helmets were shown by rigorous peer reviewed scientific data to be of no effect in preventing head injuries, would you wear one?
[/i]
I'd stop and help anyone who was injured, however silly they may have been, but I'm not a ***
ummm..
crikey, can I suggest you actually read what I wrote...did I say I wouldn't stop to help someone injured in any of my previous posts? Nope.. I said if you failed to take what I and most people consider basic precautions then I'm not going to be showing you any sympathy. That doesn't mean I wouldn't call you an ambulance.
Some of us are old enough to remember riding when helmets didn't exist, should we have waited for them to be invented before daring to venture out
no, of course not? Who suggested that? But they do exist now, and IMO opinion there isn't a valid reason not to wear one (when off road).
Couple of questions;
If you got a head injury while wearing a helmet, would you sue the helmet manufacturer?
If helmets were shown by rigorous peer reviewed scientific data to be of no effect in preventing head injuries, would you wear one?
If we had rigorous testing for bicycle helmets as they have here for motorbike helmets:
http://sharp.direct.gov.uk/content/sharp-testing
then bicycle helmets would soon be found to be massively under-built. I regularly hit motorbike speeds on my road bike, so really should be wearing a motorbike helmet. After all, to not do so would be irresponsible.
Would the vocal helmet wearing cyclists adopt the new 1.5kg, speed effective helmets or would helmets become "impractical"?
A couple of 'observations' about bike helmets;
They are part of the 'uniform' for mountain bikers. Just like lycra is frowned upon, just like using a bottle instead of a Camelbak filled with rubbish, just like super wide bars and short stems are the 'fashion', so helmets are seen as part of the look.
They are also strongly associated with riders younger than me; 48 yrs old...who seem to believe that a helmet, made from an inch of polystyrene, will automatically protect them from a serious head injury.
Cycle helmets are like religion; there are some people who are prepared to believe in them no matter what, without any sensible, credible evidence.
I wear one sometimes, I have to when I race, but I'm under no illusion that it will prevent a serious head injury.
alright grandad, isn't it time for your nap?
Cycle helmets are like religion; there are some people who are prepared to believe in them no matter what, without any sensible, credible evidence.
exercise as much pomp and bluster as you feel is necessary, but my helmet has saved me from painful knocks on the head from big lumps of granite twice already this year.. and I saw a noob family member (a fair bit older than you for whatever that proves 😯 ) also get saved from a big bump on the head last year in an OTB..
maybe it didn't prevent a life changing injury, but it certainly enabled us to continue riding that day with a grin...
that's all the proof that I need..
[i]alright grandad, isn't it time for your nap?[/i]
Ah, this would pass for intelligent comment?
I've done 16 hours on the bike in the last 5 days, training for the 3 Peaks.
What have you been up to?
No pomp or bluster here, just a recognition that there is no serious evidence for the efficacy of helmets.
Spare me your anecdotes, for they do not equal data.
[i]Couple of questions;
If you got a head injury while wearing a helmet, would you sue the helmet manufacturer?
If helmets were shown by rigorous peer reviewed scientific data to be of no effect in preventing head injuries, would you wear one?[/i]
If you got a head injury while wearing a helmet, would you sue the helmet manufacturer?If helmets were shown by rigorous peer reviewed scientific data to be of no effect in preventing head injuries, would you wear one?
no..
and no, if you could prove 100% that they can't prevent head injury in all cases. Which you can't, and nor can any 'peer reviewed data'.
oh...And just because you write something as 'fact' doesn't mean it is. Its your opinion, no more relevant than anyone elses on here, regardless of what you appear to believe.
spot on crikey. i'm 53 in physical age, so was brought up pre-helmet, i like to think i can be responsible for my self, the only time i wear a helmet is on a building site.
As for assisting any poor soul who was injured, the only criteria would be whether they voted tory 😉
If you got a head injury while wearing a helmet, would you sue the helmet manufacturer?If helmets were shown by rigorous peer reviewed scientific data to be of no effect in preventing head injuries, would you wear one?
no and yes
and as for the anecdote Vs data thing
PFFFFFFFFFFffffffffffffffftt... I'm just saying that I made my personal choice to wear a helmet, based on my personal experience..
The argument that you're old and experienced enough not to need one is fair enough.. you know your limits, have nowt to prove and have the skills to keep you relatively safe should an error of judgement occur..
But noobs for example.. and us whippersnappers (a notoriously young, dumb and full of cum demographic) are more likely to get into situations where our enthusiasm is greater than our skill..
Surely even a boneheaded old soldier like yourself can appreciate that a helmet might prevent a harmless tumble down a tor from becoming a concussed and gory drama..?
No need for a helmet sonny jim... I'm old don't you know..!!
[img] 
[/img]
EDIT: sorry TM, I should state for the record that this pic is being used to illustrate perilous activity, not elderly irresponsibility.. 😀
I can think of 2 incidents where if I wasnt wearing a lid I'd still be drooling!
I also know a few riders that have ended up with some serious head injuries even with a full face, wonder how much worse it would've been without one.
[i]And just because you write something as 'fact' doesn't mean it is. Its your opinion, no more relevant than anyone elses on here, regardless of what you appear to believe.[/i]
I've claimed nothing as 'fact', and I appreciate my opinion is no more relevant than anyone elses, unlike the helmet police...
It's simple; show me that they work, using hard statistics. Show me that wearing a helmet will make a difference to me getting a serious head injury and i'll wear one all the time.
...but you can't.
Nor can anyone else.
..but you all seem to believe in helmets.
I recommend going to look at both sides of the argument with an open mind. I did; I was the first of my team to buy one, a Specialized Sub Six which I still have. I always wore one for racing and training. I was riding to get the coach to race in the Inter Regional Champs with 2 mates. We all fell off on black ice on the same corner, and one of us got concussion; me, because my helmet hit the road; the other 2 were fine without helmets.
It's not as straightforward as everyone thinks, the subject requires a bit of thought, a bit of investigation.... but no one can be bothered.
[i]It's simple; show me that they work, using hard statistics. Show me that wearing a helmet will make a difference to me getting a serious head injury and i'll wear one all the time.[/i]
[url= http://btawa.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/The-Potential-for-Cycle-Helmets-to-Prevent-Injury-Review-.-D.Hynd-UK-2009.pdf ]appendix H.3[/url]
[i]What's wrong with the study's summary and conclusions?
The introduction to the Executive Summary quantifies the number of reported cyclist casualties and then refers to cycle helmets as the only apparent possible response to this toll. An increase in helmet wearing rates is referred to although this is irrelevant to the study. The objectives of the study are stated as to evaluate the effectiveness of helmets. The introduction thus sets out a presumption that cycle helmets are necessary, effective and the best response to cycling casualties. Such a basis makes it difficult for the researchers subsequently to present contrary results.
Cycle helmet standards were evaluated to see how effective helmets might be in crash situations. However, no account was taken of the fact that a high proportion of helmets involved in crashes fail by breaking before their protective inner liner has started to compress. The analysis therefore has little association with real-world experience.
It is stated that no evidence was found for an increased risk of rotational head injury through wearing a helmet but this is on the basis of the researchers' own simplistic analysis alone. Evidence of a contrary view exists in the majority of the associated literature, including in a report by TRL for DfT only a year earlier (St Clair and Chinn, 2007). The study ought to have acknowledged that such evidence exists.
The Executive Summary under-states the factual outcome that no reliable evidence was found of helmet benefit in the literature. By contrast, it over-states the purely speculative outcome from the accident studies that there might be benefit for cyclists in fatal crashes.
The Summary of Conclusions refers first and most prominently to the speculative accident studies, repeats the falsehood suggesting that there is no evidence of increased risk through rotational injury, and makes no reference at all to the principal factual outcome that no reliable evidence was found of helmet benefit.[/i]
[b]Next.[/b]
I've done 16 hours on the bike in the last 5 days, training for the 3 Peaks.What have you been up to?
well, it's nice of you to ask. I'm tentatively beginning preparations for a 1,300km, 8 day stage ride from France to the Netherlands next year.
... us whippersnappers (a notoriously young, dumb and full of cum demographic) are more likely to get into situations where our enthusiasm is greater than our skill..
Ah excellent. The "[i]no way I'd ride that without a helmet[/i]" brigade demonstrating risk compensation in action.
If you want to be safe then wear a helmet and any other body armour you can, but ride like you're naked. 🙂
I'm tentatively beginning preparations for a 1,300km, 8 day stage ride from France to the Netherlands next year.
sounds like your'e looking at maps 😉
[i]well, it's nice of you to ask. I'm tentatively beginning preparations for a 1,300km, 8 day stage ride from France to the Netherlands next year.[/i]
...and while you're there, look at how many people, particularly in the Netherlands ride bikes. Then think about how many of those bike riders have helmets on, then look up the rate of head injuries in the Netherlands, then compare it to countries like the USA, where helmet wearing is high and so are head injuries, then think about what that may mean...
Ah excellent. The "no way I'd ride that without a helmet" brigade demonstrating risk compensation in action.
I don't understand what that means.. 😳
I'm not sure that I'd fit into your 'brigade' either.. I've stated earlier in the thread that I won't ride [i]anything[/i] without a helmet for fear of her indoors..
Now I'm sure that if your erm, contradictory brigade of duffers turned up and spouted on about the irregularities in statistical studies, and logical fallacies and how two wrongs make a right, she would forget the years of government campaigning and cheerfully wave me out of the door while all of the family helmets burned on a pyre in the street..
and how on earth can you compare statistics between Holland and America..!!?
trollage
I call cantankerous old troll
[i]forget the years of government campaigning [/i]
...which haven't actually happened....
You appear to wear a helmet because you're scared of your wife, which is a novel approach to the use of personal protective equipment.
[i]and how on earth can you compare statistics between Holland and America..!!?[/i]
Like this;
[img] 
[/img]
orget the years of government campaigning...which haven't actually happened....
are you on crack?
😆
this is becoming a joke.. you are TJs zombie log in and I need a breather from this absurdity
too many knocks on the head have sent you doolally old timer..
Interesting report that..:-)
Surely a better test to see if a helmet has any beneficial qualities...get on your hands and knees...then (gently!) headbutt a rock with the top of your helmet. Then do it without a helmet. Then see which one leaves you with the biggest bruise/nastiest cut???? 🙂
Whether a polystyrene helmet is going to protect you from a full on 20 mile/h head first collision with a rock, I'm far from convinced about, but I can't possibly see how it won't protect you from certain types of impacts. And even if thats just a glancing blow that would otherwise have required stitches, then thats good enough for me...