[Closed] Why don't you ride trailquests ?

People seem to want to put less in for more return. Working at your fun is seemed not to be fun.

If that were true no-one would do MTB marathons or 24 hour races - those are most definitely hard work.

It seems a lot of riders only go riding if:

- They are following a trail center route.
- They are following a waymarked trail / mag route.
- They are being led round.
- They dont have to plan anything

The people who use to ride with maps in the rosy good old days still do. The people riding trail centres are IN ADDITION to those out on the hills I reckon. And more riders = good.

Both cp and Trimix missing the point by a country mile...

The OP asked why people don't do them, and you've both taken an arrogant, superior approach to explain that we are the ones at fault, that we're the crap ones who cant take responsibility or even read a map.

Yes, actually I can read a map, Yes actually, I've done orienteering events and done well in them in far more self reliant conditions than on a bike.

[i]It's exciting & fast - you don't know how many points someone else might accumulate[/i] Ooh, how exciting..

Sorry, it's dull and it's not racing as I would like to race.

It is a niche and I think you have to accept that. One of the largest niches in mtb riding is the 'sneer at other peoples' niches' so you are not going to convert the half inch between socks and shorts brigade.[ see what I did there eh?]
I enjoy them because I am a map anorak and frankly am a crap rider so doing any kind of straight race is very discouraging. Obviously I still am at the back in TQs but you don't get your nose rubbed in it quite as badly as you do ride round on your own a lot or with a team member. Yes more publicity would draw more like minded riders but you are never going to make it a mass MTB sport [if that isn't a contradiction in terms].

I see there's an event near me soon, may give it a crack.

Yeah, there are a lot of old fogeys there. Also a lot of people who are only out for a laugh. Which is fine, but it's hardly a race then is it?

Actually the best guys have always been pretty fast, and in fact on the odd occasions where top XC racers have had a go at these sorts of events they have generally been beaten - so although it isn't just about pure bike speed, winning does require a pretty well honed set of skills.

Also, the thing about TQ is that the top guys are competing in the same event as the have a go crowd. The criticism of it not being much of a competition would be akin to an XC race having everyone from the fun to the elite mixed up together and coming to the conclusion that most of the riders weren't much good. True enough, but the best TQ/Polaris riders have always been pretty fit and skilled.

BTW, better riders don't stop to look at the map.

Incidentally, there's a really good article about Polaris in the current issue of Privateer.

True, the fast guys are fast, but there's only a few of them 🙂 Not denying it's a special set of skills (see my post) but it's something that I find stress-inducing, not stress relieving like flat out racing.

BTW, better riders don't stop to look at the map [b]as often[/b]

You can't always read a map from a map-board ime.

I would really like to do one. But having to make (or buy) a map board does put me off a bit.

Map board is a bit of ply, 6 holes and 3 zip ties. At least to start you off - works fine.

But having to make (or buy) a map board does put me off a bit.

Doesn't take long or cost much.

50p for a cheapo plastic chopping board. A couple of quid for some bulldog clips. Punch a few holes through the board so you can zip tie it to the bars. Attach the map using the bulldog clips. Job done. Looks crap, but who cares?

Rightplacerighttime - I did the recent Trailtrax too - glad you enjoyed it! A well thought-out set of checkpoints that rewarded good planning.

I enjoy them because its not just one set of skills needed, its three - route planning, navigation on the fly, riding fast. Not everyone's cup of tea but then what event is?

Do you know what?..... the more I've read on here, the more tempted I am to give it a go.

I did some (running) orienteering events a long while ago and enjoyed them. I see the navigation bit as a strength, something that I'm quite good at and therefore a potential competitive advantage to make up for lack of absolute speed.
Whilst I like the idea of a bit of competition, the idea of racing laps around a boggy field does not tickle-my-fancy at all, so the TQ might be worth a shot instead.

BUT... I have a one fundamental issue still to overcome in that I like to optimise the limited time available on a bike each weekend, so I want to fit as much fast rocky downhill/technical fun into every ride as possible and I can't see TQ satisfying this need. Correct me if you think I've underestimated the terrain but I'm expecting predominantly open moorland type stuff on TQs.

I'm waivering... convince me. 🙂

Whilst I like the idea of a bit of competition, the idea of racing laps around a boggy field does not tickle-my-fancy at all

FFS XC RACING IS NOT LIKE THAT! AARGH! Why the flying F do people keep saying that?!?!!!

Who cares?

Hmmm, maybe the people spending £500 to £2000 on new mountain bikes aren't all that keen on ziptying a chopping board to their bars...
Cycling as a whole and mountain biking in particular has moved up in terms of class/income and popularity, trailquesting would seem not to have noticed.

i dont ride them because they are all too far from me to make the journey worthwhile, and the one that is close (Southwell in September) is on the weekend of my brothers wedding!

I have had a go at a couple and quite enjoyed them - its a different challenge to normal riding. I was quite surprised at the D&W one i did in December though. Thought we had done ok as a pair, but then realised that others had got ALL of the checkpoints. Also, there doesnt seem to be any advantage or reason for competing as a pair rather than solo, other than it is more sociable.

I will admit though that i am now at the point where XC racing holds little interest (as I have got older the categories have got even faster - Masters XC is mental fast), i am fed up of the expense and bike destroying mud of 24hr races and am keen to try different types of cycle sport.

Molgrips- it's a well known fact, just like the one about xc racers having no bike handling skills and the fact that they are basically too rubbish to be roadie so they ride around a field in garish lycra*

*baased on what some bloke said down the pub and what folks read in MBR etc..

I will admit though that i am now at the point where XC racing holds little interest (as I have got older the categories have got even faster - Masters XC is mental fast), i am fed up of the expense and bike destroying mud of 24hr races and am keen to try different types of cycle sport.

My thoughts too.

Cycling as a whole and mountain biking in particular has moved up in terms of class/income and popularity, trailquesting would seem not to have noticed.

You're making the mistake of lumping all of the competitors together again. TQ/Polaris has had sponsored riders on brand new top of the range XC bikes for 15 years. Not loads, but some.

I ride a full carbon hardtail and my mapboard cost more than a cheap bike from Halfords. I think you're the one who hasn't been noticing things. Where did you develop these prejudices?

oh, and to make a map board i stuck 2 bits of cardboard box together and zip tied it to my bars. Did the trick but was a bit odd to begin with not being able to see my front wheel.

As a misunderstood and callow youth I was never in the scouts.. I thought the orienteering types at school probably had inverted penises.. and I always considered ramblers, soldiers etc to be hiding a shameful secret that they think their family might disown them for..

all that aside I need a good selection of maps and a compass to use a MTB around the area I live.. and If my riding buddy hadn't had to cut back his riding hours by 90% due to work commitments we'd probably be doing the local Trailquests..

I couldn't imagine entering a trailquest on my own though.. or with people that I wasn't certain of having a really good laugh with.. otherwise it might seem a bit too much like some sort of trial by flapping maps and geekery..

I imagine a lot of the real map worshippers to be too busy playing dungeons and dragons.. or writing complaining letters to their local MPs or whingeing on internet forums ( 😯 ) to have discovered mountain biking.. but that's due to my teen prejudices lingering..

I hope that helps..

And more riders = good

Just out of curiosity what your reasoning behind this?

More people on bike on general is good for increasing people awareness of bikes on the road e.t.c but specificity more people mtbing? I'm not saying "the club is closed we're full" and personally nor would I want to stop or put someone off mtbing but I can't see many benefits to more MTBers. Possibly more technology and the odd trail centre but that's it.

Whilst I like the idea of a bit of competition, the idea of racing laps around a boggy field does not tickle-my-fancy at all

FFS XC RACING IS NOT LIKE THAT! AARGH! Why the flying F do people keep saying that?!?!!!

Ignorance in my case... just 'cos that's the impression I'm getting from MM & HtN threads etc. (i.e. not from any personal experience)

<edit> maybe I should have said, the idea of racing laps of a set course (often muddy)</edit>

We did a few way back - various Trailbreak events and their Isle of Wight weekend .

I always perceived that the way to do well was to cover as much as you could on the flat, the road and the firetrails. We used to plot a route that looked interesting but that meant we did badly - to improve your score you were looking for the more boring trails.

That contrasts with Enduro riding where you're going to a new area and someone has (hopefully) identified the best trails for you and stitched them together. I think that's the main reason Trailbreak saw a move from the trailquest to the enduro at the WightDiamond - you'd get more good riding in over the weekend. Enduro's are also more sociable while you're riding - you'd meet people going in the same direction rather than racing past them heading the other way.

Also, the bikes (most) people are riding now are further from XC race bikes than they used to be so less suitable for Trailquest riding. 140-160mm bikes are not the right machines for making time on road. A few years back 'trail' travel was closer to 100mm, light weight was a big focus, and tyres were generally narrower.

I think thoose who mention "flow" are making an important point.

I love maps and reading them but reading a map on a bike is much more difficult than reading a map on foot. (ie you have to stop)

If I do want to go exploring an area then I have a map and a bike I can just head off why would I pay for an event ?

I pay for events because
1 like to compete against other people directly (ie I need to see them)
2 So I can be directed to some good trails , because no matter how good you are at reading a map you cant beat local knowledge.

MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Member
There's a bit of a discussion going on in MTQ at the moment about attracting new members and increasing entries at events.

Anyway that was then. Nowadays it is all about time & money and priorities. I would love to do some more and would have done some of the Bordersmtb and XCC ones if it was not for the fact I work shifts and most of the events fell on working days.
As for how to get more people into TQing?
If I use my riding buddies as an example most do not know about TQ, most would struggle to read a map, quite a few would struggle to ride continuously for 3hrs, most(all)do not enter events of any kind,most do not use internet forums or buy magazines therefore would not be aware of TQ events or what they are.
For those of us who do use the net, buy magazines etc there is little or no info.
Locally we have the DH at Ae and other cycling events going on and unless you are in the "know" or are interested in these events then the advertising info is very poor to non existent.
Reaching out to the grass roots is maybe a way for TQ to get the numbers back up. Something along the lines of "Fun" club events of a shorter duration
Mate and I had always used maps before we started cycling so for us it was just a means of going to another area where we would or may not have gone riding
Ageing and failing eyesight just adds to the list of reasons atm 🙄

TheBrick - Member

"And more riders = good"

Just out of curiosity what your reasoning behind this?

lots of reasons:

more riders = more trails built for the purpose = more 'normal' people riding bikes (wives, girlfriends, boyfriends, kids, the family that plays together stays together etc.)

scale of manufacture should bring prices down - i think we're seeing evidence of this already.

(rockshox recons for £120)

with more bikes around, and lower prices, there should be less bike-theft.

(in much the same way that there's little point stealing DVD players anymore; everyone's got a couple, and you can buy a new one for £20)

if more people ride, there'll be less ignorance / more tolerance.

if more people ride at the weekend, maybe they'll think about riding to work/ the shops.

etc.

etc.

bikes are ace.

I ride a lot around the Peak district and I know it well. The idea of mixing the skills involved appeals. However, the thing that puts me off the events is that when I've seen riders out doing this sort of event, a noticable number of them seem really miserable and think all other riders should give them right of way simply because they're taking part in an event (even when the other riders are faster).

They just don't make it look like fun.

crikey - Member
Cycling as a whole and mountain biking in particular has moved up in terms of class/income and popularity, trailquesting would seem not to have noticed.

Cycling moving up in class, and that's a good thing yeah ?? 😆

Well why not let these new 'upper class' bikers polish their niches and stroke their beards while the proper bikers carry on enjoying whatever sort of riding they enjoy.

You dont need to make a map holder, just put the map in your pocket. Thats what I used to do.

I never won, or came close, I just enjoyed riding with added elements like timing, route planning, map and terrain reading etc.

Those are the bits I enjoyed most.

For me as a veteran of several Polaris in the 90s, basically I got bored of them. As stated, if you're aiming to do well then the riding is a bit dull usually (well practiced routine of searching out the fast fireroads and roads for planning the route) and for polaris at least, the riding is affected by carrying a rucksack with your gear in.

Add to that the fact that I can do enduros or other events these days (which weren't available then) that are on good routes, well supported and most importantly good fun with little planning I can see why TQs don't attract that many.

And sorry to say it but IME MTG demonstrates the demographic that TQs attract and 'older' bearded blokes shouting about being vegans hardly pulls in the younger crowd... It's all a bit beard and sandals basically.

ahwiles - Member

lots of reasons:

more riders = more trails built for the purpose = more 'normal' people riding bikes (wives, girlfriends, boyfriends, kids, the family that plays together stays together etc.)

scale of manufacture should bring prices down - i think we're seeing evidence of this already.

(rockshox recons for £120)

with more bikes around, and lower prices, there should be less bike-theft.

(in much the same way that there's little point stealing DVD players anymore; everyone's got a couple, and you can buy a new one for £20)

if more people ride, there'll be less ignorance / more tolerance.

if more people ride at the weekend, maybe they'll think about riding to work/ the shops.

etc.

etc.

Most of that is more people on bikes in general which I agree with but I'm not sure specifically more people MTBing is true.

More people -> more conflict on this crowed little island.

bikes are ace.

ofcourse

I've been asked if I want to join a team a couple of times, but I always expect the riding to be a bit uninspiring so make my excuses.

Would rather test my map-reading abilities riding solo or with a group of pals in the Lakes, just for example.

I think people are overstating the image thing here, I mean "normal" MTBers are hardly at the bleeding edge of cool are they?

crikey - which bit of my post do you find

arrogant, superior approach to explain that we are the ones at fault

?

Yours just seemed argumentative.

I was trying to put an alternative view on all the negative views of the events.

I generally think trailquests these days will only ever attract a relatively small group of folks, but could well attract people from other disciplines or sports altogether. I don't know if any advertising of events goes on in orienteering clubs etc...

I think a lot of the increase in cycling recently has come from people who don't come necessarily from a participation sports background or come from sports backgrounds other than those requiring navigation, and prefer either following waymarked trails and/or gps tracks. Therefore there's prob no desire to do navigation based events.

All of which is fair enough.

Maybe targeting non cyclists is a way to get numbers up?

Gotta say though, unless you know about trailquests, generally they are not very widely advertised.

Therefore there's prob no desire to do navigation based events.

All of which is fair enough.

Maybe targeting non cyclists is a way to get numbers up?

Gotta say though, unless you know about trailquests, generally they are not very widely advertised.

Like others did some back in the 90's including a couple of Wight Diamond challenges.
From a competition POV though it was pointless as we would go for the 'most off-road / exciting riding' routes rather than using road/firetrack to get the most points.

Since trailbreak seems to have changed more towards sportives/randonees I didn't think there were any in the South East of England now

I organised my own Navigator event once. Did it in our local riding area so the best / fastest routes between checkpoints were also the best bits of singletrack in the area.

We had a small group doing it, about 5 teams of two/three and it went down really well. All those doing it loved it, most had never done anything like that before.

Being self organised I was able to choose a good location, ensue it took in great riding and didnt have to worry about much. We then all finished up in the pub.

Quality day out.

But that wont work for large numbers. However, it would work as an introduction for small numbers. Same goes for introducing people to other events like 12/24 hr races or XC races. There are loads of people on here who reckon its just wrong to ride round a 'muddy field' for 12/24 hrs, but some of us enjoy it and realise its not what you think.

You wont convince some, but the curious would give it ago.

I read all this with interest as i'm not into events as such, i prefer 'just riding', but i like the atmosphere when i work at them and often feel like it's a case of finding an event type i like.

Did XC racing back in the day when it was fun, but it all got a bit serious / fast / couldn't ride after beers in the campsite night before. Did Meridas, brilliant routes but got fed up of being on great trails with too many riders on the course in general. MM - fun but riding laps doesn't do it for me. Big days out in small groups - perfect.. and cheaper..

I heard good things about the WRT, but TQ's don't appeal in that the focus seems to be on navigation and checkpoint bagging.

But mix some of that open-route idea, less riders all doing the same route, less over-competitive XC-racer types who mince downhill in front of you (sorry!) etc, chuck in a bivi or 2 even, and i'm interested. But i still need a good reason to follow an organised event, rather than 'just riding' for myself.

Maybe something like the Black Mtns 3-day idea, with optional routes / sections each day depending on how you feel, some reliance on navigation if you wnat to find the best trails, no podium at the end just a big beer 'n' pasta tent with a post race party would be good. spot prizes for fun. That kind of thing.

That would introduce route choice but also be a bit more open to all, maybe. Nightmare to organise though i expect!

I didn't expect this many replies.
To respond to some of the common themes then...

It does sound like Trailquesting has got an image problem. Some people are simply not going to do them because they don't see them as cool.
Someone suggested once that we rebranded them as Rural Alleycats to cash in on those mad courier races through city centres.

There's a lot of criticism of the trails used. There's very few places in the UK with 3 hours worth of singletrack in one location. When you add in the fact that we have to use legal RoWs with no cheekyness, then apart from Cannock Chase, it's inevitable that you're going to have to use roads to link it all up.

The navigation and map reading is really not all that hard, it's the route planning that needs a bit of thought.
As an example, here's a map from a recent event.
The map is supplied with just the Control Points marked, the orange highlighted line is my intended route that I drew on before the start.

[img] [/img]

With that clipped to a map board on the 'bars, it's easy enough to glance down and think "Turn right when I get to the road" or "Look for a bridleway on the left about 500m after the road junction". It doesn't interrupt the flow of the ride much at all.
Yes, there's a fair bit of road on that route, but proportionally, no more than HONC or Brecon Beast and no more than when I explore my own local bridleways.

In terms of getting more numbers its not like trying to make trailquests (MTBO Score if you like) the most popular activity ever its just a case of getting a few more people to local league event. I'd have thought getting 75-125 people at a local league summer evening event would be reasonable and perhaps a couple of hundred to a weekend one.

Trailquests are niche and its still really just grass routes stuff. The national league does just seem to be made of local league events rather than special events. Putting a trailquest section in something like transwales would probably up its profile but perhaps not appeal to the riders. Same thing with Singletrack classic weekender or CRC marathons. Trailquest on a saturday and marathon on the Sunday.

More people might do the local leagues if the national events like polaris get their act together. Three events a year would be good but perhaps a change to spring from a base camp with a night nav section, summer from a base and autumn with the overnight camp.

I don't know what it is. I assume it's explained somewhere in the thread but I just wanted to answer the OP.

HTH

Isn't the reason that TQs are not popular and HONC/MM/Trail Centres are down to the fact that a lot of people these days want the "easy" option (and no I'm not suggesting that being able to ride 100km/24hrs off road is easy) of not having to stop every 0.5/1km to check a map.

I've done a few and really like em. Just don't have a car so can't get to any.

I really think it will be hard to grow interest in this part of the sport. What is the percentage of runners who take part in orienteering?

Maybe some form of sprint event where you get a pre printed map of controls each to be collected in a set sequence and run as a time trial. You could have different lengths available at a site. One is maybe a novice/sport level at 30km and a "pro" level at 60km (or a variation thereof). So the event is based on time and for a complete set of controls you get your actual ride time. Then for each missed control you'd get a time deduction. You'd probably have to specify a max number of missed controls available before elimination (so you don't get people doing 1st and last check point and only taking 20 mins to cover the course.

Not really in the true spirit of orienteering but a basic level of following a route would be needed (rather than just sticking to the trail that is unravelling in front of you) and might interset folk into trying a full on event.

Some people just prefer doing other things. Get over it. The whole idea sounds to me to be utterly tedious and a great way to spoil a good ride, but I'm sure that won't stop you from enjoying it. Why do you feel the need to validate and justify your own activities by getting more people to take part?

As a TQ organiser and competitor, this is a really interesting thread. A lot of posters have done TQs, and it seems most have enjoyed them, but have stopped for whatever reason. Most posters don't do TQs, and want to "just ride their bikes". Trailquests for me get you to ride in an area you would normally drive past - sometimes you wouldn't normally ride there as the riding is poor, sometimes the riding is great. It's rarely a technical gnarrfest, but there are often those little snippets of woodland singletrack or fast descent that make your local trails fun.

Riding for me is about enjoying being outside and getting some blood pumping - the social side is secondary, but still important. The "stop/start" nature is mentioned above, but how many trail centre riders stop at the end of every section or the top of every molehill? That is real stop/ start.

The image problem is a difficult one to fix - maybe we need to have more images of glamourous girls (or blokes) on the adverts etc?

Hey MTQG, just chipping in as this is actually a parallel to a long-running discussion in orienteering circles - namely that you see lots of cross-country runners, fell runners and even roadrunners in the South East, but put a map into the equation and suddenly it seems wrong...

After much discussion with some friends who are orienteers, we figured that it's never going to be cool - there's no two ways about it, really. It's always going to be a relatively niche sport, and that's the unfortunate fact.
BUT at the same time, they could do a lot more to increase trial rates. Because out of the hundreds of thousands of casual on- and off-road runners out there, even if only 5% are interested after trying it, that's still several thousand new fans.

So, to that end, there's a marketing angle (where are events held? do people ever come across anything that reminds them that such a sport exists? and so on), and also a 'make it easy to try' angle - there's a view of it being quite cliquey, competed by weirdos, and while that may not be possible to shift, if you can at least get people in the door, they could see for themselves that it's fun and not full of weirdos. And perhaps most importantly, we probably have an idea of the barriers to entry (perceived distance to get to events, perception of difficulty/ weirdo level), but less of an idea of why we'd want to overcome those barriers.

I could go on, but I'm not being very coherent, I think...

I registered with MTQ last year and fully intended (along with a few other MB Swindon members)to do a couple. Usual story, club rides and events took over and left us not a lot of time for anything else. I promise we'll get around to doing it one day.

Its quite hard finding events on the internet. Never sure what to look under. I've missed some local ones because they have not come up on any websites I've looked on. Is there a website that covers all mtb events? Have seen trailquests and may be interested.
❓

trail quest is very popular on the isle of man - most local faces turn up - Graham Hughes organises good runs which are well supported by a wide age range from generations/families to the more mature. good fun and enough of a challenge for all abilities - even the best riders can make a bum choice depending on the weather. biggest surprise was when some "random" Kiwis slaughtered a 5hr course in 3 hours, went to get the Ferry & turned out to be World adventure race champs who happened to turn up on the spur of the moment when visiting mates...

i can't do the next 5hr one as i'm doing the 10@KT again . Bit disappointed but there you go. Maybe its just a collective mindset? Far prefer them to racing (as do most vie spoken to @ events)

The publicity issue is again most likely a result of it being organised at a grass roots level. Most websites are shonky to say the least doesnt help the image. 5hrs on the isle of man has an 'event' feel to it but in reality its just small scale from a village hall - I am making assumptions here. The only attempt I know of to get something a bit larger than one of the local leagues was Dark and White's Grizedale Giant. It was pulled for lack of entries. Not sure who you could blame price - less than half polaris or the area. Grizedale area isnt short of good riding.

One great aspect of trailquests is that they cover a lot of area. My friend's dad is heavily involved with the local Polaris scene which means we can just point a a bit of map and he can tell us from experience that there are no interesting trails there.

Reaching out to the grass roots is maybe a way for TQ to get the numbers back up. Something along the lines of "Fun" club events of a shorter duration

For those after info, here's a national calendar:
http://www.bmbo.org.uk/calendar/

...and for midlands based riders, one for MTQ, which doesn't talk to BMBO so don't get on their calendar (don't you just love splits in a small niche sport 🙄 )
http://www.midlandtrailquests.co.uk/events-and-results/events.php

However, the thing that puts me off the events is that when I've seen riders out doing this sort of event, a noticable number of them seem really miserable and think all other riders should give them right of way simply because they're taking part in an event (even when the other riders are faster).

They just don't make it look like fun.

The SE have gone there own way - a varriation on the same theme as all the BMBO affiliated events, checkpoint value seems to be the main difference.

[url= http://www.gorrick.com/trailtrax/index.php ]http://www.gorrick.com/trailtrax/index.php[/url]

I always perceived that the way to do well was to cover as much as you could on the flat, the road and the firetrails. We used to plot a route that looked interesting but that meant we did badly - to improve your score you were looking for the more boring trails

The thing is, if you're not going to threaten the pointy end, why not just do it the way you want to and not worry too much about having been beaten by a few people who had less fun than you did. Just treat the event as a structure to your route plan which takes you places you might not have gone otherwise.

The Scottish series is very inclusive for the grassroots - really good vibe tbh. Generational entrants (Dads and /or Mams and children), juniors etc - been impressed with the overall friendliness and structure. Not massive fields, but certainly enough to feel like an event.
Obviously family-orientated MTB event is quite polarising if that's not you, but it's definitely a strand of identity to exploit in the context of increasing MBO's popularity.

It's not worth over-thinking, either. As has been mentioned, our recreational lives are far more fragmented these days. Everything is under more pressure for our attention and choice is massive. XC racing has been decimated from the glory days of the 90s for example. We want TQs / MBO to be viable events, numbers greater than 2 men and a dog, but beyond that it's probably not realistic to grow the sport beyond a basic sustainability.

Hi
apologies I havnt had time to read the whole thread as I am flying to Sweden today to compete in a Mountain Bike Orienteering World Cup race and spent last night packing.

In fact there are also 15 UK riders competing in the World Masters Champs held concurrently, where we expect to bring home some Gongs like last year.

Walton Chasers are putting on 4 low key TQ style events coming up in the next few weeks (similar to Dark and White)
http://www.walton-chasers.co.uk/?p=559

Please do not confuse Mountain Bike Orienteering (MTBO, MBO) in its International form, ie shorter formats on specialist large scale orienteering maps with MBO Score or Trailquest on 1:50,000 maps.
Yes they are both navigation on bikes but there the similarities end.

http://www.singletrackworld.com/2011/02/mountain-bike-orienteering-hits-stafford/

Anyone wanting a flavour of MTBO races as apposed to TQs see

www.mbosouth.co.uk

also check out this Headcam footage from last years world champs sprint ( 25min) race in a town in portugal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvfvIuO5AwA

There are a series of good vids from the World Champs in Israel in 2009 too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahOHKRDUie4&feature=player_embedded

The Scottish series is very inclusive for the grassroots - really good vibe tbh. Generational entrants (Dads and /or Mams and children), juniors etc - been impressed with the overall friendliness and structure. Not massive fields, but certainly enough to feel like an event.
Obviously family-orientated MTB event is quite polarising if that's not you, but it's definitely a strand of identity to exploit in the context of increasing MBO's popularity.

It's not worth over-thinking, either. As has been mentioned, our recreational lives are far more fragmented these days. Everything is under more pressure for our attention and choice is massive. XC racing has been decimated from the glory days of the 90s for example. We want TQs / MBO to be viable events, numbers greater than 2 men and a dog,

+1

if an organiser can get in contact with "how to do it" details we'll have a look at it for 2012 (we have restarted XC racing in the NW so why not MBO). The kit is obviously a big issue but we operate in an area where one should be viable if some thought is put in and a "family event" would be good. We already have a dodgy website and good sponsor contacts 😉 .

personally its not the image that puts me off... after all, as mountainbikers we're not exactly the most fashionable beasts in the woods!

i'd say its the fact that riding for me is about messing around in the woods with my friends... no structure, no route plans... just 'ohhh lets see where that goes!, 'that was fun, lets do it again' and 'i'm so freaking happy to be sharing this experience with my friends who, when able to breath again, are all grinning from ear to ear'

beardy-sockswithsandles-mapboard-cardigan image aside.... it just doesnt come across (to me personally) as a fun activity for someone who doesnt like racing or structured playtime.

Never organised one but [url= http://www.bmbo.org.uk/organisers/index.php ]BMBO running events guide[/url] for budding organisers. I'd thought about sticking my neck out and doing a Teesdale one, fortunately NEMBOs turned up instead. I'd be up for some West Pennines / South Pennines riding although last time I spoke to one of the local authority rights of way people up there they took the view trailquests are races and they dont do races on bridleways.

I haven't read the thread but I'll chip in with why I wouldn't do one -

- It all sounds a bit lame. Like World Of Warcraft for bikers.

- Why spoil a ride with a treasure hunt? Navigate if you need to, otherwise just ride.

- Seems like inventing a new sport for the sake of inventing it.

I've nothing against anyone who takes part, I just think you'd all have more fun if you just went out riding.

I've done a few years ago. The last one was in the Forest of Dean. About half way through we rode to the top of a hill for a high score checkpoint but along with about 8 other people at the chechpoint at that time we were unable to find it. We then went for a cheese toastie at pedalabikeaway and then a play on the DH tracks. I think we were only 4th from last.

It turned out some over-competitive cheat had removed the checkpoint stamp.

That's an interesting point about racing on bridleways.
Perhaps I should mention that, despite my name on STW, I am just an ordinary member of MTQ. I have organised one event and helped at a couple of others, but I am not a club organiser and my views are my own, not official club policy.

As I understand it, MTQ broke away from BMBO because some people weren't happy about "racing" on bridleways because it's illegal.
All MTQ events are what BMBO would call "Score Events", which makes them a "Navigation" event, not a "Speed" event, so they can legally take place on public RoWs.
It all seems a bit trivial when you look at all the various "Enduros", "Marathons" and "Challenges" taking place on public RoWs.

I've heard of Walton Chasers and the Gorrick series. Stidge's link is the first I've heard of MBOSouth.
Personally, I'd rather see one club covering the whole country. But then, I'd like to see the various 12 & 24 hour races around the country combined in to a national series as well.

To respond to a couple more points raised;

Why the criticism of meeting in village halls ?
What are the alternatives ? A pub car park or a tent in a field ? It's somewhere warm and dry with a car park.

Several people mention the map reading and score card punching as interrupting the flow of a ride.
As large418 says, most forum rides have far less flow than a trailquest, it's the main thing that puts me off group rides. In a 3 hour trailquest, I probably spend less than 15 minutes stationary. In a 3 hour BikeRadar Wyre Forest ride it would be over an hour.

Haven't done a trailquest since I rode a Mount Vision (circa 1998).
Really enjoyed them, and the Mount vision, in their day.
Sadly the frameset has been languishing in the roof for many years - might build it into a ski-bike one day soon!

It all sounds a bit lame.

Another recurring theme.
It's as lame as you want it to be.
To go back to my original post, HONC sounds a bit lame. 50 or 100km of lanes and tame bridleways on the Cotswolds, with several locals posting on STW about how it missed out a lot of the good trails in the area.
It still sold out within 2 hours of going live on line though.

Having had a go at trying to portray why I wouldn't do a TQ, which did come across as more critical than I was aiming for, I feel I should really try to be more helpful.

It seems to me that the concept, as with orienteering, is a niche within a niche within a... essentially to get round a TQ you need to be a reasonably competent rider, with the ability to navigate, and the desire to do both at once. All together a bit intimidating; hence, I suppose the lack of new (to mountain biking and events in general) faces.

The navigation is obviously an integral part of TQ, but that's the bit that most people would see as the difficult part, so, in my opinion, the best way forward would be to minimise that for new riders.

You could run a beginners TQ, with groups or individuals or pairs getting navigational advice from [s]crusty old ****ers[/s] more experienced TQers at the start.

Or, as noted above, run some, not all, but some TQs as a 'visit all the points' circuit, with different lengths of circuit and times to finish in.

My experience with orienteering was through my fell running club; they put on an event and I entered, seeing it as a one-off 'practice' for fell racing. It was different to fell racing because of the route choice, but I chose to run it to win, or try to, and, as above I cut out the good stuff in favour of the fast stuff. Maybe there is the option of combining a TQ with a different event like Mayhem; feeding off the popularity.

In general terms, I think fewer check points would help reduce the perception of navigating on a bike; pick an area with optional routes, choose 5 checkpoints and let people really go to town on the route choice.

The other thing that occurs to me with the rise in popularity of rigid bikes and cyclocrossers is to aim for those people; the 3 peaks used to spawn a number of reliability rides in the North West; there is a market for organised not-races, with limited navigation aimed at a particular type of cyclist.

Another possible option is to release the details of the checkpoints before the event; get them out on the web, let the poring over maps and choosing the right route be done at home or in the pub, then turn up and get going on the day. Or even the night before to encourage folk to travel and camp or B&B; local economy booster...

Can't think of any more things at the mo, but it's a viable event, let down a lot by a poor image and a certain level of required skill that puts people off at the start. More checkpoint choices that force people to ride the best bits of an area would help too, and some kind of link to trail centres, to get the people riding in a controlled environment, then expand to outside...

Image is no concern because everyone looks a dick on a bike, spd sandals or five tens no one cool's going to be very impressed. It's just the thought of turning something I do to unwind into a little mirror of the work environment - targets, competition, routine, strategies etc - that puts me off. It sounds ****ing mental to me (and that goes for any kind of leisure time sport). Mind you, racing seems popular with plenty of folk so my thoughts are just a drop in the ocean here.

Why the criticism of meeting in village halls ?

I think they do one in the Wyre Forest, MidlandTrailquestsGraham I guess you would know 😉

Sounds like it could be fun.

A couple of good points there, Crikey.

I've thought that combining a trailquest with another event might be a good way to get new entrants.
Wiggle 6 had the night time trial the night before. One of the Merida Marathions had a night ride on the Saturday before the main event on Sunday. Even MM has got a road sportive.
Would people want to ride two hard event in one weekend, or even one day though ?

If people think they are going to turn up and be told "Here's your map, see you in three hours" and be left to it, that would be a bit daunting.
There will always be someone at a trailquest to help beginners with route planning and so on.
I think some sort of beginners event would be a good idea though, maybe with an experienced rider leading a small group of first timers.

last time I spoke to one of the local authority rights of way people up there they took the view trailquests are races and they dont do races on bridleways

They are wrong. TQs are specifically NOT races, never advertised as races and are a test of navigation, not of speed. Some organisers go a bit wrong by making the course clearable and then awarding the win to the person who does it in the fastest time. In the original rules the win should be awarded to the person who has the most high value checkpoints, then if still a tie (if I remember right) to the person who started first - so never any question of racing.

CRC Marathons are also not races for the same reason as TQs - which is that races are illegal on bridleways - it's a crap law though, so whether anyone ever would put it to the test in court is a moot point.

I just think you'd all have more fun if you just went out riding.

I invariably have more fun when doing a TQ than when just out riding - but then I'm afflicted by a swollen overcompetitive gland

I have been following this with interest as I know that organisers are currently looking at ways to encourage more to try these events.
Some good points have been raised and personally I think it is this image problem that seems to put most new people off plus the map bit which seems to scare people but really isn't that bad. In reality though you can't beat these events for value for money and as many have said you can take the competitive element as casually or seriously as you want.

If you struggle with the image of these events try picturing them more like rallying on mountain bikes because its about as close as you can get without an engine. (I used to rally and find it ticks most of the same boxes even down to scaring yourself ---tless now and then!)

I have done Polaris and trailquest events for years but I have no beard and am hopefully far from fuddy duddiness! I do plenty of 'normal' riding and trail centre stuff too but can honestly say that much of the best riding I have done has been during these events in places I would probably never have gone otherwise.

Crikey - you made a lot of good points and suggestions, I think the idea of a set route or similar for first timers would be good. Incidently, and its not a dig but I cannot agree with the 'class/income moving on from this level' thing you mentioned earlier, I ride an Anthem X and many have more exotic bikes, plenty don't of course and still beat plenty of those that do. As with all events you see a varied spread of people at trailquests too all of whom seem very friendly and sociable.

I mainly now compete in NYMBO (North Yorkshire series, Nymbo.org.uk)
which are very well organised with good maps, no marking up, electronic scoring and above all very good value!
The September round at Dalby usually involves sections of the RED route and is followed the next day by an Enduro event round the local North York Moors.

GO ON give one a go and then decide.

sorry for the longer than intended post. Cheers

To go back to my original post, HONC sounds a bit lame. 50 or 100km of lanes and tame bridleways on the Cotswolds, with several locals posting on STW about how it missed out a lot of the good trails in the area.

Seem to recall the same complaints being levelled at each of the English CRC marathons and their earlier incarnations.

Problem with trailquests is as soon as you start describing them they do come over a bit lashings of ginger beer.

Like most competative events is broadly
Turn up to start, put bike together faff and talk to people, register, collect timing chip and get more info on the event / course, start, compete for 2, 3, 4 5 or more hours, finish, drink tea, eat biscuits, talk to people, go to cafe / pub or home. Because its about navigation you can be a map nerd as much or as little as you want. Ask questions if you want. Sometimes there are prizes sometime not - Blanchland NEMBOs it was wine, sometimes their are freebies sometime there are not - Dark and White give you a cliffe bar. Come on what do you want for an event that costs a tenner. Sunshine will make things seem better showers will make them seem worse. Storms make for adventures. If you can do 40 - 50km in three hours you'd probably finish in the top half of the table. Unlike a lot of cross country races first is first there's no elite, sports, pros etc everyone is fun class.

On the compete bit - if you've got two hours your not going to be sitting around planning its really just look and go. Longer evenets give you more time. Shorten things to an hours an it'll be sprint lunacy - probably more niche rather than less. There's a few copies of the map round the start / finish so you can get some feel for the area. If you want a nerd tip - the locations of the start are usually given a couple of weeks before hand. An A4 map @ 50thou covers around 14km by 10km so you look at the riding within a 14km radius of the start you get and idea of whats there. Start is by punching an electronic chip - a variation on the timing chips used in running and biking events all over the UK. Punch in and the clock is running. You get given a map with the checkpoints marked on and a sheet giving a better desription of where it is - something simple like North side of track, telegraph pole. I dont usually bother with them as checkpoints in the events I do are marked with a bit of barrier tape and below it is a little beeping box. Punch in with the timing chip. Head off to next.

Trailquests dont make boring riding but bad course designers do.

I'd be up for some West Pennines / South Pennines riding although last time I spoke to one of the local authority rights of way people up there they took the view trailquests are races and they dont do races on bridleways.

views may differ seeing as a Lancs CC RoW officer is running a "mini" one on the weekender which will have riders on a Bridleway.

My view is that it's an ideal way of an area promoting itself and should be targetting families, it's about getting people to explore an area and enjoy themselves etc. Good sponsorship and promotion is the way forward to bring new people into riding real trails rather than focusing on whether its all about beards, sandals and marins and sneering by people who would never organise anything that didn't fill their own pocket.

If someone knows their way around these things and the organisation required we want to hear about it info@brownbacksracing.co.uk

Its definately a point of view thing as a few marathon type events seem to run through the same patch and yet they arent viewed as races. It was in the context of this would be a great area for a... Local for locals might get a different response. BTW wasnt Lancs.

Use of the word "quest". Fix that and you will be fine

Interesting the [b]Atitude[/b] of some TQ riders that has been mentioned by other posters.

Go look at this thread via Graham's id website, and feel the love

[url= http://www.midlandtrailquests.co.uk/forum/forum-view-thread.php?topic=4&thread=12 ]http://www.midlandtrailquests.co.uk/forum/forum-view-thread.php?topic=4&thread=12 [/url]

Oh, and yesterday my mate going uphill at a TQ was taken out by some knob bowling down hill far faster than he was able to stop. She was going ~3 miles an hour and her bike landed over a hedge a way behind her.

He and the rider who followed closely after apparently seemed more interested in "getting on" rather than checking my mate was OK.

Nice.

PS. She still won though.

cream teas at the end

i'm suddenly interested

Use of the word "quest". Fix that and you will be fine

They've already done that. Officially they are now called MBO Score events (mountain bike orienteering) - it's just that lots of people still call them Trailquests.

Have a look at the [url= http://www.bmbo.org.uk/ ]BMBO[/url] website for more info on this whole thing.

Blimey, still going? It's simple really, isn't it.

1. People doing the snappily renamed MBO score events are happy with them as is and don't see any real need to change them.

2. People who don't do them, the ones who maybe would be potential participants, see them as archaic, fuddy duddy, weird things.

The reality, squirming TQers, is that they do seem a bit old fashioned, so you either live with that and get on with having a charmingly Victorian niche event or you consider dragging the format kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.

How? Talk to the likes of Garmin. Embrace and incorporate GPS technology. Learn from stuff like geo-caching, which is accessible and popular with families. Ban Tracksters... Tech it up a bit, incorporate short trials sections with bonus points. Or special stages. Run an urban event on a quiet Sunday afternoon etc.

But see '1', if the people running the sport are happy with it as is, then they won't be fundamentally changing it any time soon. Will they?

Personally it doesn't bother me at all that I am in a niche when I'm doing a TQ/MBO and the ONLY reason that I would like to see more people in the sport is because having a bigger pool of competitors leads through into having more organisers of events - so more events on offer to take part in.

TQ has always been a bit different to many other niches within mountainbiking in that many of the organisers only put on one event a year, for no (or very little) financial gain, but just because they are part of the "club" -so the more people in the club, the more events we get.

I've planned 2 MTBO events in the last 3 years, for which I got no payment whatsoever as I did it under the auspices of my orienteering club and they got the profits we made - but I don't mind as I know there are other enthusiasts out there doing the same for me (and in fact the process is quite fun anyway).

The idea of bringing the sport into the 21st century with the use of GPS is a bit curious. I just don't see how that would work, or what the point would be - why not bring mountainbiking into the 21st century by using motorbikes?

Seriously though, I don't see how a GPS would add to the experience, or even be helpful. It's a bit like those guys in Arab souks using abacuses to do their sums - if you know what you're doing then they are quicker than calculators. If you can read a map then a GPS is redundant.

Mmm, interesting. I have only ever done one - a White and Dark event from Monsal Dale - and I loved it. Why have I not done another? No idea. I'm not riding much at the mo' anyway so that's the first problem. What did strike me about the Monsal Dale one was that I got a reasonably good quality ride - and respectable position - because I knew the area fairly well. I didn't therefore spend a lot of time checking the map. I imagine if I was in an unfamiliar area I'd get a bit irritated with the map reading. I simply cannot ride fast whilst checking a map.

The one thing that my competitive streak was not so keen on is the massive variety in abilities. This was my first trailquest and I was up against people wearing UK Mountain Bike Orienteering shirts. I assume they earned them. If I'm going to race I want to be up against similar abilities so I have a fighting chance of being competitive.

I think the other factor is cost. I so rarely get to ride these days that I'm a bit reluctant to pay for the privilege.

Overall though, I loved it and have never done it since. Go figure 😯