[Closed] Why do we put up with stuff unfit for purpose?

I’m sure if the same was happening with say electric cars we would hear a lot more about it

Conventional cars have always been as reliable as they are today, of course.

I think the issue with e MTBs is the motor units were designed with commuters / utility bikes in mind and thus not built to stand the stress of MTBing

So in this case its not so much the motor units are unfit for purpose but being used outside their design parameters

The blame lies with the bike manufacturers not the motor manufacturers

Well you don’t have to put up with it. Just don’t buy one until they become more reliable. I think you’re forgetting just how new the tech is. Proper e-mtbs have been around for what, 5 or 6 years? That’s no time at all. If you compare the amounts spent on development of e-mtbs compared to what’s been spent on cars it must be tiny so it’s not surprising there is a way to go yet....

I've pretty much set my heart on getting an Orange Charger Pro once the docs have given me the all clear. Basically, treating myself in a big way because it is a huge amount of money, but then I am going through a pretty huge amount guff at the moment. However, the more I read, the more nervous I get about the technology. I joined a Facebook Group (e-MTB Scotland), and it just seems to be filled with a constant stream of people complaining about dead motors, firmware updates and error messages. So now, I too am wondering if the technology isn't really there yet.

Mind you, I'm also well aware of the internet effect, and that one person loudly complaining is 100x more visible than the quiet majority happy pedalling away without any complaints.

I'd love to hear or see a lot more data on e-MTB reliability before I shell out 7K on one of the things!

I don’t ride mine that much, although this thread has just reminded me I have one, and I’m about to go for a ride on a beautiful morning, which I wasn’t previously due to a raging hangover 😀.

I think it is a big help that people like Performance Line are now doing bearing kits and offering rebuilds so at least you can get them fixed relatively easily out of warranty. FWIW I do think you only see the worst of it on the internet. My Lapierre is now 4 years old, and it did have a new motor fitted under warranty, but it hasn’t really dented my enjoyment that much. It would be more annoying if it was my only bike I guess...

The problem with e bike motors are various

Some fail due to user error like using a power washer or even a hose pipe and holding it on the motor, pedal strikes and crashes can cause issues too

I own a 2020 Levo, had a 2017 Levo (1 motor replaced under warranty due water ingress through my own fault of washing technique)

2018 Kenevo (1 motor replaced under warranty due to a heavy pedal strike crash)

The 2020 Levo has also had one motor replaced (broken drive belt which is a known issue)

Its the motor manufactures who need to improve the reliability, the bike manufactures can only replace the motors and report back the issues for the motor manufacture to fix

In Specialized case the failure rate seems high due to the amount of bikes they have sold compared to the competition

When a Brose motor in a Spesh fails, they have to send it back to Brose for inspection, they are not allowed to open it up, Spesh do work with Brose to fix these issues but ultimately its Brose who decide what to do

The Brose 2021 motor has an uprated belt and clutch to fix the problem, any bike that has the motor with the weaker belt and clutch will have the new motor fitted if the old motors fails within the two year warranty period, along with this Spesh upped the 2 year warranty on the 19 and 20 Levo/Kenevo to 4 years for the motor to alleviate any fears owners may have

Its going to take time for e bike motors to be refined to the point they have a very low failure rate

Another thing that doesn't help is something that is quite unique to the UK so we see higher failure rates, we ride all year round in all weathers, this is something that a lot of countries dont do

Only thing you can do to make the pain of having a broken motor easier is to pick a brand with a great rep for warranty work and pick a dealer who is regarded as the best around for warranty work and turn around

For me that is Specialized and Chris Reilly @ Berkshire Cycles

Have seen others and experienced myself the uselessness of other manufactures and dealers leaving people off the bike for weeks/months at a time, since having a Levo Ive never been off the bike more than a day or two due to a motor issue

Another thing that doesn’t help is something that is quite unique to the UK so we see higher failure rates, we ride all year round in all weathers, this is something that a lot of countries dont do

I have no need, want or particular desire for an e-mtb. But this probably sums up why this topic has been repeated every few months for anything from forks to drive chains.

When manufacturers say forks should be serviced every 24h of wet or extreme riding, they probably think that's a lot of use. They've never considered the average MTBer in the UK does that just in a month of mid week night rides.

Same with chain lube, they're universally unfit for purpose until someone stumbled onto putoline which was developed for off road motorbikes in Northern Europe rather than road bikes or in parts of the world where wet rides just aren't a thing.

A family member works in a bike dealers and sells a lot of ebikes. Top brand too with good backup. Even though he could get one very cheaply he won’t touch them yet, far too many failures for the initial outlay.

Lots of stories of parts failing on a regular basis with no improvements made to said parts even over a long period of time.

The workers in his shop just call all the ebikes “warranty jobs”.

For me there’s no way I’d spend £5k on a bike which after the warranty period - or when the motor tech becomes obsolete or not repairable - is completely useless.

I want to like them, I would like to buy one someday as round where I live it could be very useful but I wouldn’t touch one with a bargepole at the moment. Thankfully I don’t NEED one yet to stay on a bike, hopefully they will improve pretty soon.

Mate’s got a Specialized one - Levo? Turbo Levo or something like that - he’s on his second bike, first one had pretty much everything electrical replaced under warranty. He got rid when the warranty ran out.
That’s probably key here, people are more likely to put up with it when the manufacturer is being nice and replacing stuff. Could be different when talking about second owner bikes that are 3 or 4 years old.

He got another though and this one does appear to be better quality as it’s not been back to the shop yet.

he’s on his second bike, first one had pretty much everything electrical replaced under warranty. He got rid when the warranty ran out.

There are plenty of people who won't run a car without a warranty. Hence the depreciation on cars. Top end car with £100,000 sticker price to £10,000 banger in what 10 to 15 years? Some of that is the thought inconvience of having the older version in to be fixed at the dealers.

I’m talking specifically about E Bike reliability. I’m 2 years into mine, had 2 new motors in that time, replaced under warranty admittedly but that my point. Its almost as if its expected, ”

There will be some spread sheet somewhere with how much the bikes get used, the number of failures and so on.

For everyone who rides it 4h 7 days a week in all weather there will be loads that only get ridden in nice weather for a 20 mile pootle 5 times a year.

If you are riding yours loads and breaking loads of bits, you are an outlier. The bikes will be designed for the average use.

It's odd how some riders get thousands of miles and other get a failure within 500 miles. It's got to be due to the way people either ride the bike or treat the bike, it can't simply be down to a lack of quality control When assembling the motors.

It's not a uk thing vs california, as there are plenty of uk riders who ride in all weather's who aren't getting failures.

I blame my motor failure on hosing the bike down, from now on its going to be left minging after each ride. But then I know others who do hose their bike down like I do and haven't had an issue.

Maybe it is just poor quality control of the motor manufacturing.

I head pedal strikes being cited a lot as a reason that motors fail - but if eBikes can't handle pedal strikes, the as the OP says, they're unfit for purpose.

Some interesting responses, outside of Covid lockdown etc mine is used as a one ride a week bike. Usually Quantocks, Mendips, Exmoor etc so on average 20 odd miles a week, I would hardly call that excessive. Aside from avoiding places like the Mendips during the Winter ( really not enjoyable) I do expect to be able to ride it all year round as that's what I did with the full Suss it replaced. I don't think that is unreasonable? 🤔 My bike cleaning doesn't involve a pressure washer, just a spray over with Fenwicks avoiding sensitive areas 😱 followed by a gentle rinse with a hose see above re 😱 My mate has a background in electrical engineering and reckons the main problem is manufacturers not making the motors watertight? -🙄
The theory about on and off road might be relevant though if my wife's bike is a good example. She's had her Giant E HT over 3 years hardly ever ventures off road on it, rides it regularly and has had zero problems with the battery or motor.

I think there are a number of issues.

Pedal strikes - An ebike can still be going on a rough climb when a normal bike would have already stopped, and I think this increases the risk of pedal strikes, as does the chance that a novice ebiker (less skilled with regard to avoiding pedal strikes) might be able to tackle a section that would be the preserve or a more experienced or skilled rider on a conventional bike. I see many ebikers looking to fit shorted cranks to avoid pedal strikes, but to a certain extent, it might be due to a skills deficit. Do I get pedal strike on my normal bikes? Very occasionally. Do I get pedal strikes on my ebike? Very occasionally. Which is more likely to be damaged? Definitely the ebike.

Water sealing - There is no two ways about it, a MTB ebike is going to be subjected to many order of magnitudes of water than a commuter ebike. And sustained wetness. I have made the decision to avoid riding in what I know are going to be atmospherically wet conditions - ie. Raining. I can't avoid ALL water, but I know water will kill the ebike sooner or later. The sealing is just not good enough. And it isn't just the electrics that fail, it is the sprag bearings too, and they are right in the firing line of any water ingress.

Sprag bearings - These are clutch bearings that allow power to be transferred from a drive gear to a shaft - on my Levo (Brose motor), the BB axle. The bearings are rated to 250nm of torque. The motor puts out 90nm, leaving 160nm for all other inputs before there is a risk of the sprag being damaged. I believe a powerful rider can exceed 160nm of torque at the crank, but more crucially, there are other sources. A severe crank strike could do it. But also on a full suspension bike, the chain growth during suspension compression will manifest itself as torque on the sprag bearing between the chainring and the BB axle.

I think that the torque of motor+rider+suspension induced chain tension =>250nm, and this is what kills Brose motors. It only needs to be for an instant for the damage to occur. I think the latest motors have firmware that cuts out motor power when the g-sensor detects a g loading likely to cause the chain growth issue. This hasn't been rolled out to the 1.3 or 1.2 motors though. I also think Brose have started to use stronger rated sprag bearings. FWIW I read somewhere that pro track cyclists can generate 260nm+. They could kill a Brose unit without even switching it on.

Electrical failures and water. Interesting topic.

We learnt from floods in 2000 and 2007 that water is actually excellent for cleaning contactors relays etc in our substations. Truly. But we were using de-ionised water.

As for flood water, it wasn’t too bad on AC equipment (until it went bang of course) but DC equipment was trashed incredibly quickly. Basically you had to get the DC power switched off before the water got to the relays otherwise the corrosion was impressive and terminal.

Ebike motors are not DC contactors but I bet the failure mechanisms are similar - clean water probably isn’t that much of an issue, but water never is clean and I suspect peaty, off road water is horrific it terms of ion content.

Mates Levo is about 5yrs old and has changed nothing. The only failure being a seized seat post cable. He rides it through everything muddy and rarely cleans it. Its pretty beaten up and unloved but nothing electrical has been an issue.
Now mention the wifes LIV and we start talking water on connections. Battery connections not meeting the battery terminals and shutting off. Giant supplied me an official shim kit to stop this ( why wasnt it done before selling it, I have no idea !) Water gets in the connection from handlebar controller to loom and was modified after our purchase as they didnt put a seal in it and the canbus goes mental and it wont shut down. So, I put some heat shrink on this. So, we had batteries shutting down when first ridden to not switching off at all. I dont trust it personally in anything more than a cloudy day, but luckily the wife only rides dusty days. Giant should have done better in my eyes and wallet............

In Specialized case the failure rate seems high due to the amount of bikes they have sold compared to the competition

Interesting point, have they really sold a significant amount more than others?

As an individual model, almost certainly. However, I suspect that Bosch have sold more motors as they are used in so many bikes from so many brands.

I'd get onto spesh with a strongly worded letter, pretty much what you've written here. Unlikely to get you a fully working bike to last but at the very least they might send you some freebies.

Can't hurt.

When manufacturers say forks should be serviced every 24h of wet or extreme riding, they probably think that’s a lot of use. They’ve never considered the average MTBer in the UK does that just in a month of mid week night rides.

I'd be flabbergasted if the 'average' rider does four hours a week, let alone four hours of mid-week after dark. Every week!

As for the OP - far too early in their development for me to be interested.