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My mate and I, relatively inexperienced road cyclists, were experimenting with drafting yesterday.
Making the (almost certainly flawed) assumption that you're not taking the p*ss, then are you on about drafting other vehicles or each other? If it's other vehicles, then good luck with that (you can help me confront the gun weilding morons I met yesterday, as you have no sense of fear).
If you're talking drafting other cyclists, then get ye to a chaingang. Most cycling clubs run some form of structured high speed group riding training.
[i]Without wishing to get embroiled in this debate I do find a lot of car drivers become obsessed by passing cyclists, even if you're not really impeding their progress.
My commute to work includes a reasonable descent towards the town, where there's always slow moving traffic I can easily keep up with and often overtake. However, even when freewheeling behind a car, you'll get people trying to overtake, then realise they have nowhere to go[/i]
All very very true and very very f&*^ing annoying.
TandemJeremy - Member
... There is also [s]the fact[/s] [u]my opinion[/u] that when riding two abreast the outside rider is where a single rider should be - out from the kerb.
cyclists,horses and pedestrians have an unalienable right to use the queens highway.
motorists are merely licensed and can have that privilege taken away.
A couple of years ago the "unalienable right" to silence was taken away, and I don't see many cyclists on the M1 either...
Making the (almost certainly flawed) assumption that you're not taking the p*ss, then are you on about drafting other vehicles or each other?
I rarely take the pi55 without putting one of these on the sentence for clarity: 😉
If it's other vehicles, then good luck with that (you can help me confront the gun weilding morons I met yesterday, as you have no sense of fear).
God no, that's a terrifying idea.
We were interested in experiencing how much reduction in effort you could get, esp. pedaling at speed, and into the wind. And also the responsibility and it puts on the lead rider to steer, warn and avoid braking without warning etc.
When is it appropriate/inappropriate to draft other (co-operative) riders? When should you swap places? Is it worth doing below 20 mph? Is it too risky unless on the open road? What's the best following distance? etc etc
A couple of years ago the "unalienable right" to silence was taken away, and I don't see many cyclists on the M1 either...
you probably don't see many horses or pedestrians either.
you probably don't see many horses or pedestrians either.
oh, I dunno
I've lost count of the number of times I've seen "Pedestrians in Carriageway" or "Animals on Road" displayed on the matrix signs
Like everyone else though, I just ignore them - the signs that is:)
There is also the fact that when riding two abreast the outside rider is where a single rider should be - out from the kerb.
Have to agree with Al above - this in my opinion is often total, total bollox.
And this is why I think this:-
1. No rider should be in the gutter irrespective of if they are on their own or riding with another. There is obviously the safety aspect (road presence) but also the puncture issue and the fact that it reduces your swerve options for objects/potholes to just the one direction. I would say it is even more important in some way when riding 2 abreast not to ride in the gutter as when hemmed in by your "wingman" there is even more chance you will have to change course if they have a moment and you are pinned to the curb. It is EVEN more important again not to ride the gutter if riding in a peleton as the rider a couple of inches behind you will be following your wheel and needs an exit route either side if something goes wrong for you.
2. The natural riding position is on the piece of tarmac kept clean and smooth by the nearside wheel of motorised traffic. You normally don't want to ride right in the centre as it's often as full of loose material as the gutter and frequently a little oily.
3. The next natural riding position out on the road is often just over the centre of the road and onto the piece of tarmac kept clean by the offside tyre.
After xxx thousand miles riding in groups and solo I am perfectly happy the position I want to take if solo is in the wheel line of the nearside tyre of a car and feel perfectly safe doing so. I also know where on the road I ride if alongside another rider so as to not push them into the gutter. I would not under any circumstances choose this position when riding on my own.
The natural riding position is on the piece of tarmac kept clean and smooth by the nearside wheel of motorised traffic. You normally don't want to ride right in the centre as it's often as full of loose material as the gutter and frequently a little oily.
I want to ride where the visibility is greatest - both me seeing the road and the car driver seeing me. riding in line with the nearside wheels can put you in a blind spot and reduce your ability to see down the road.
The position I adopt varies. However central to the lane is the default I use. going further right when I need to see further / to prevent cars overtaking when it is not safe / to be visible further from behind round a left hand bend and going further left when it is safe for cars to overtake or on a right hand bend
I challenge you to ride in the centre of the lane on ANY of my local rides and not come back either punctured or covered in road rash. Also if choosing to ride along the centre of the lane alongside me on ANY of the above roads you would have a hand on your shoulder gently pushing you out to the correct position for 2nd rider thus allowing me out of the gutter where you had just pinned me.
I wouldn't overtake a cyclist on an NSL road unless the other lane was clear. So what difference would it make to me if they were riding two or three abreast as long as they weren't taking up the opposite side of the road too?
richmtb - MemberI wouldn't overtake a cyclist on an NSL road unless the other lane was clear. So what difference would it make to me if they were riding two or three abreast as long as they weren't taking up the opposite side of the road too?
Thats the point folk seem unable to grasp. If they are two abreast it is a shorter line to overtake as well. If there is not enough space to overtake a car there is not enough space to overtake a bike
convert - fairy snuff. How far apart do you ride side by side? Genuinie question
genuine answer!
Depends! If the road is rough, esp potholes or if there are folk in the group who are not too used to riding in groups or if the group is riding tempo and shooting the breeze and not 100% focussed I'd be looking to be able to reach out with my arm horizontal and have a 4-6inch gap between my fist and their shoulder. If the group was experienced, riding hard on super smooth roads and especially if it was windy and looking for shelter you might get about a foot between shoulders - but more on descents. Obviously echeloned in crosswinds too if road conditions allowed. A well drilled team will have someone at the back who'll shout to single up if a car is behind (and it's sensible to do so) and like a synchronised swim group the inside line will sprint or hold back to open up gaps which the outside line will dive into in a twinkling of an eye.
Ta.
Slightly OT but bear with me:
On the way back from Ae Forest (in the car two bikes on roof) yesterday as I joined the main road there was a queue of about a dozen cars doing between 30-40mph on the NSL road (A701 I think) back to the motorway. Turns out it was a Transit Van towing a fast food stall that was at the head of the queue.
I worked my way passed the traffic in sensible overtakes of two's and three's at a time and got passed the the queue in less than 10 minutes.
No one behind was beeping or aggressively tailgating the van (or each other for that matter) despite the fact that he was undoubtedly "holding up" the "other traffic"
If it had been a bunch of cyclists taking up the same amount of road space and admittedly moveing a bit slower then no doubt it would have been utter carnage as I can almost guarantee that people would have just tried to pass any and everywhere.
Why is these two obstructions on the road are dealt with so differently?
RichMTB poses an interesting question.
A variation on that - I was cycling up a long climb the other day, cars coming past me into oncoming traffic, close enough for me to easily touch if I put my right arm out. Then a long queue of almost stationary traffic. Why? Theres a goat by the verge, and the drivers are all stopping, then driving way out to the other side of the road to pass it when theres no traffic coming.
The worrying conclusion I can draw is that because I'm a cyclist, my life is perceived to be worth far less than that of the goat.
Rich - 'cos cyclists are perceived to be of no value - its poor peoples transport and people in cars think they have a higher level of rights as in the OP 'cos they can go faster
It's because vans pulling fast food trailers take up more of the road and can and do generally go faster than bicycles, plus it is more difficult for them to pull in to let people past due to said size.
Similarly, a goat may wander into a road and may pose a danger to other road users. Contrary to popular belief, cyclists are supposedly more intelligent than goats and can let faster road users past, by being courteous and pulling towards the side of the road when there is a tailback of traffic half a mile long.
If a cyclist chooses to be obstructive, then yes, their life is worth less than that of a goat.
If a cyclist chooses to be obstructive, then yes, their life is worth less than that of a goat.I guess you mean 'obstructive to a motorist, in the opinion of that motorist'.
And of course, you no doubt apply that logic to anything that may get in the way of the motorist too, I suppose. Like children, and horses, and all the other living things that get killed, squashed and maimed on the road. All because they're in front of you.
No, only obstructive cyclists.
cyclists are supposedly more intelligent than goats and can let faster road users past, by being courteous and pulling towards the side of the road when there is a tailback of traffic half a mile long.
you would expect that from horse riders too....
"you would expect that from horse riders too...."
I don't expect anything from horseriders. Except a mess.
It's alright everyone, we cyclists will have the last laugh, once oil prices start really going through the roof due to proper scarcity, we can laugh at the fatties who were once so confident and aggressive in the metal shell of their cars...
"It's alright everyone, we cyclists will have the last laugh, once oil prices start really going through the roof due to proper scarcity, we can laugh at the fatties who were once so confident and aggressive in the metal shell of their cars..."
Na, they'll just all get road bikes and act the same way riding them.
When is it appropriate/inappropriate to draft other (co-operative) riders? When should you swap places? Is it worth doing below 20 mph? Is it too risky unless on the open road? What's the best following distance?
Leaving aside the tedium of a discussion that is still going nowhere....
1. Either on a training ride or, if you meet up with a similarly paced rider out on the road, ask if they want to share the work.
2. Whatever feels right. When racing, riders tend to give an elbow flick to signal that the rider behind should come through. However, most people tend to come through from the back (on the outside - no surprises) when recovered and feel they ought to do a turn.
3. Below 20mph is fine. In spite of the STW bullshit, very few people consistently hold about 20 when riding. And, of course, into a headwind there's a great benefit of sharing the work.
4. A wheel to half a wheel length seems about right, so long as you're confident that the front rider is going to ride smoothly.
Top tip: find a road club. Go out with them. Best way to learn.
TandemJeremy - Member
Rich - 'cos cyclists are perceived to be of no value - its poor peoples transport and people in cars think they have a higher level of rights as in the OP 'cos they can go faster
That sounds like victim mentality to me.
I'd say that may be a factor to some, but the cyclists would be going at < 1/2 the speed, and the visibility ahead for drivers would be much better.
That post was tedious ^^^ 😉
Edit: Not you, al.
[i]That[s] post[/s] thread was tedious ^^^ [/i]
F
😆
A couple of years ago the "unalienable right" to silence was taken away, and I don't see many cyclists on the M1 either...
point 1 is completely irrelevant to the argument and point 2 is a well known exception that not all traffic can use motorways dose not diminish MrSmiths point.
If a cyclist chooses to be obstructive, then yes, their life is worth less than that of a goat.
Really think about that comment and consider if it adds weight and validity to your argument.
Let take a reality check here. If the cyclist averaged 15 mph and being as the road is windy I'm going to be generous and say the car would be [b]averaging[/b] 50 mph (so factoring in corners would have to be cruising > 50mph) which is probably a bit high in reality if the road is hard to overtake on.
Lets say the car is held up for 10 min by the cyclist, an incredibly long amount of time to be held up behind the cyclist.
Dist travelled at 50 mph in 10 min 8.333 miles
Dist travelled at 15 mph in 10 min 2.5 miles
So the car in this extremely generous (to the car) situation is now 5.833 miles behind where it would be.
This would add 7 min to the journey.
Now consider the bugger van posted above, but a van with trailer is much harder to overtake epically on a twisty road, it could easily not be possible and you would have to wait until your paths separated but lets say again it take 15 min to be about to pass.
Dist travelled at 50 mph in 15 min 12.5 miles
Dist travelled at 30 mph in 15 min 7.5 miles
The car is 5 miles behind where it would be.
This would add 6 min to the journey.
Even if the burger van could be passed in 10 like the cyclist that equates to a 4 min delay to the journey.
So "best case" for the anti-cyclist argument is an extra delay of 3 min over the expectable burger van delay, probably the same as hitting a few traffic lights red.
Bloody cyclists.
Really think about those calculations and consider if they add weight and validity to your argument.
🙄
Now consider the bugger van
If I saw it coming up behind me, I'd pedal much, much faster....
Tasty. 😆
GlitterGary - Member
Really think about those calculations and consider if they add weight and validity to your argument.
A logical clear argument stating a reasonable situation. If you have problems with the argument please raise the issues rather than write snide comments. If you have a point to make please make it.
I do have a problem with your snide comments. As is life.
I don't like arguing, I much prefer discussion.
Wow! did that create a bit of an argument - for the record, whilst I understand the Troll tag, it wasn't meant to be. I am simply describing an experience that left me pondering.
To sum up ... we appear to have a mix of, those that like to contribute to a lively debate, with those that take an intransigent position - whether collectively acknowledged to be right or generally lambasted and obviously wrong.
However, the basic facts, and admittedly lacking in detail from the OP ... Much of the road described was wide enough to pass a long line of cyclists riding single file (and even two abreast for some stretches), without danger to anyone. My observation was that the ciclista involved were enjoying holding up traffic by occupying much more of the road than needed, for much more time than necessary. In short, they were being arses.
May I also say, I laughed out loud at the "bugger van" scene.
Cyclists can be so inconsiderate...
Lol I want to know whether the bugger van contains any cargo or whether it's more of a mobile set-up shop which parks around Wisley...
On a slight aside- I do find it extremely irritating when over taken by a car even though the end of a traffic jam is 20m ahead and then said overtaker insists on sitting much further over to the left than necessary. It's either deliberate sabotage to my commuting efforts or the driver has got a memory like a goldfish.