[Closed] Why do people like steel bikes?

Molgrips.

Is the 29er tubeless? If so, you haven't accounted for the 2kg of extra Stans Spaff™ in there. 😉

My Soloist is the same geometry as the Life

I suppose if those figures are given at 120mm then at 100mm it'll be quite a bit longer and steeper (assuming it'll take another 10mm layback on the post, and the HA drops to 70).

The life/breath were apparently based on the 'designers' old Kona frame with some tweeks, which is allegedly where Cy got his inspiration for the soul from too. Either way it always looked like the bike you'd design in your head, forged headtube, hourglass stays, ritchey dropouts, slightly dropped top tube, forward facing seatpost slot, no rack mounts. My only gripe were the cable guides, I prefer roadie style guides under the BB or zip tied guides, although I can see why there the way they are, perfect for shouldering the bike.

The new house has a big garage, I've told myself my first treat as soon as all the DIY is done in a couple of years is a bazing setup and frame jig, then I can tweek old frames to my hearts content!

Why do people like steel bikes?

Cos they is real.
[url= https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7176/6928679911_6f18a1f225_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7176/6928679911_6f18a1f225_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/bygi9t ]IMAG0348[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/takisawa2/ ]pten2106[/url], on Flickr

I like this one because it's got some hand-built woo-woo in it, I've had it for ages and I love the way it rides - all the cliched stuff about resilient, sprightly handling - this has it in spadefuls. Love it even more now it's debounced and degeared.

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I like this one because I've done more miles on it than anything else, because I know I'll have it forever unless something bad happens, nad because it's so versatile.
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I like this one because it's got bouncy bits and geary bits and it's fun to thrash. light enough for 100 milers, strong enough to take more abuse than I'm likely to give it. Doesn't really need to be steel, but I wanted one, they were cheap, and some of it's magic woo-woo 853. Christmas lights are not a permanent feature.
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And I like this one because I asked for a cheap station/pub bike, someone (off here) gave it to me - he'd found it in a skip. Put some of my parts bin stuff on it and I've grown quite attached to it! No clue how rusty it is - plenty of algae on it when I picked it up - I reckon it's spent some time in a canal.
[img] [/img]

^ that appears to be an old Bontrager RaceLite or OR, you got that for free? Jammy barsteward!

good eyes! OR 1990/1991.

Lovely chap (tobymc on here) rescued it from a skip, kept it, wanted it to go to a good home. I asked on here for a cheap hack, he gave it to me, I had to get rid of most of the bits (27 speed brakeless fixie when I picked it up!) back wheel and frame are only remaining parts. Might do a proper resto job on it at some point. til then, it's being used!

Ageing 456 that's done me proud for carrying/towing Nobby Jr to bouncing down a Welsh mountain.

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The basic mud/snow/why not one.

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One of the nicest riding bikes I've used.

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The one bike I regret not buying when I had the chance.

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Not saying they're better than my carbon or alu bikes but they each have a place in riding life and all do what they're intended to do well.

Molgrips.

Is the 29er tubeless? If so, you haven't accounted for the 2kg of extra Stans Spaff™ in there

Both tubeless. about 100ml in each wheel 🙂

til then, it's being used!

As it should be!

My Bonty is getting some love at the moment ready for 24/12 again 🙂

well, if I'm honest, I snapped a crank the other day, so it's not being used!

99 LX finally died on it's 3rd bike. Not sure how to shuffle chainsets around the bikes. PA will keep it's XT double, nothing else is quite right where it is.

Old steel frames rust out ? nope I have a 1947 Hobbs in 531 and My mum has her 1953 F C Parkes still going strong

Stadium Platinum for me. Was the first road bike I owned - restored garage find which looked like a pile of rust but is now my commuter of choice and quite often the one I choose when I just fancy a leisurely ride around the local lanes. Never been able to find out anything about them but who cares!!!

Whoops double post - finger trouble tonight

Aesthetics: I just love the look of narrow and (mostly) straight-tubed bikes.

Ride quality: I went from a notoriously stiff Genesis Core to a 456 evo 2 and the difference was noticeable, no matter what the naysayers think. If you get up to a decent speed on chattery stuff especially, the difference between the series of wooden thwacks on the core versus some 'zing' on the 456 is marked.

Look right, ride great. Can be repaired with a large adjustable spanner. What's not to like.

Oh good thread.... and after a long long time away from steel i'm now embracing it again in the form of a singlespeed 🙂 still have my carbon beauty but boy forgot how good steel can be!!

back then...
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and now 🙂
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I like mine. Being 'big boned' I can make it sproing and booooooooiiiiiiiing a bit. It is a nice blue colour. It fits well. It is not as heavy as folk think. It was cheap in a sale, because of a scratched dropout. As said before on this thread, nice stays. 😉
[url= https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7253/7021531949_16a3b1b965_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7253/7021531949_16a3b1b965_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/bGtbPF ]Where did the singletrack go?[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/matt_outandabout/ ]Matt Robinson[/url], on Flickr

'Steel frames rust out'

Whatever.
Here's 'Trusty Rusty' (which isn't actually rusty) Handbuilt, fillet brazed by Kevin Winter in 1990. Tange Prestige.

[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2812/9102409582_b04295bcc6_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2812/9102409582_b04295bcc6_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/eSmeff ]Mk 8[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimmygrainger/ ]jimmyg352[/url], on Flickr

I will never ever part with it. Ever.

I have always said I would put any top end metal frame (Steel, Ali, Ti) against any cheap carbon frame and they beat the cheap carbon frame any day of the week.

And to back that up I got below in the workshop.
[img] ?oh=04c96b5994f9c67a8afc9b5a5137bc27&oe=55F0F3F9[/img]

And my young apprentice mumble on the way for test ride "going to ride this bike that's old than me!

5 mins later, "wow, that really nice bike, rides very well and great handling, better than that Spez Roubaix that I road earlier!"

That did make me smile! 😆

My Sanderson Breath got nicked last summer when my garage was done over,I was far more upset about losing it than I was my flashy FS. I replaced it with a Voodoo Bizango which is a great bike but I could instantly feel the difference in the back end, far harsher. The Voodoo has been on a constant upgrade cycle for the past 10 months to the degree I could rebuild it too its former Halfords glory, flog it for £300 and use the cash to get a nice new steel frame to hang the upgraded bits off. The 29" town crier would be the obvious option but I'm also tempted by a Genesis High Latitude or push the boat out on a Stanton Sherpa. My other bike is a Kona Process 153 and I love the long TT which I think probably favors the Stanton.
Hmmm decisions...

I have always said I would put any top end metal frame (Steel, Ali, Ti) against any cheap carbon frame and they beat the cheap carbon frame any day of the week.

Dunno why anybody would have one,they are fugly
[IMG] [/IMG]

Just let me check...Yup; gooping
[IMG] [/IMG]

Here is another to keep the kids from the fire.
[IMG] [/IMG]
And they even use the outdated material to make road bikes!
[IMG] [/IMG]

And gingers!
[IMG] [/IMG]
[IMG] [/IMG]

After a solid year on the road bike i've started riding my Orange R8 again, with some rufty Pananracer Rampage SC's on... here @ Cringle Plantation, the isle of Man's current must ride place full of Enduro-ness. Unlike me.

My TDF 853 Ribble - very stiff

[url=[url= https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5528/13824457595_898e676ce3_h.jp g" target="_blank">https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5528/13824457595_898e676ce3_h.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/n4BXBa ]Ribble[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/68424083@N07/ ]adshools[/url], on Flickr][/url]

The XC9

[url= https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7354/15905475843_df6adae083_h.jp g" target="_blank">https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7354/15905475843_df6adae083_h.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/qevHQ8 ]20150214_090005[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/68424083@N07/ ]adshools[/url], on Flickr

Neither are light, neither are porky, both ride well.

Why do I like steel?

Because I can make whatever I want.
And repair if the need ever arises.
Or replace a tube.
Modify whenever I like.
Reuse or rework bits when they are ready for scrap (dropouts, cable stops etc).
And when finally at end of life they can be fully recycled into some other high grade steel product (not carbon landfill fodder).

Did someone mention skinny stays? These are 1/2" diameter on my son's bike. To demonstrate the recycling point, the matching curved seatstay brace was rescued from an old Diamond Back skip find.

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29er with 410mm chainstays - no problemo
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How would sir like his dropouts today?
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And not sure what or why, but just because I can 🙂
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Nice work Mick_r. 🙂

I broke one once.

It was welded for free by a man with some welding gear, that day.

Pretty compelling reason right there 🙂

Why are there no rat look steel bikes?

There are a few rat look steel bikes. Julie Racing Design did a nice 29er (picture below if someone has time to faff with the link) http://julieracingdesig.canalblog.com/albums/singlespeed_29__disc/photos/28137396-jrd_mix.html

And apologies to the OP that this seems to have digressed in an interesting way but isn't really answering his question about which bike to buy 🙂

Quirrel - Member
Why are there no rat look steel bikes?...

All of them have that feature. You just have to ride them for 10 years or so for it to come out... 🙂

Gone the other way.

I have an Inbred 29er and a Gary fisher 29er in alu the GF is a far nicer ride imo than the Inbred although both are almost identical angles and built from the same parts. Steel needs to be skinny and often the weight just kills the feel for me.

Had a Thorn Sherpa amazing bike felt like the magic carpet ride steel is meant to be but it was a £500 frame so you would expect it to be special I think good steel costs, in my experience any way.

To be fair though, the Inbred is a cheap frame and is heavy. Better steel frames have more 'feel' to them.

I currently have a Salsa El Mariachi and a Stooge - both are comfortable for miles and miles, and I've just gone for a Ti Stooge as well which has a weight benefit over the steel but a very similar feel.

So can you feel the steel apeal through 2.5 inches of soft low inflated tire ?

On a road bike i think its appreciable but on a mtb with fat tires I have my doubts.

I like the feel of steel hardtails and have owned quite a few over the years, they're not all great though, much is down to design and geometry to make the most of the benefits of skinny steel tubes.

wicki - Member

So can you feel the steel apeal through 2.5 inches of soft low inflated tire ?

On a road bike i think its appreciable but on a mtb with fat tires I have my doubts.

doubt away.

Why do people like steel bikes?

IGMC.

For mick_r

[img] [/img]

almost a Brit Chopper bike, if you're the same mick_r...

853 inbred frame here and it is both lighter and nicer to ride than the 520 ioID it replaced. I am still looking for a 20" tinbred, or another 853 inbred.

The right material for the right job.

A chain is still steel.

A cassette is still steel.

A pedal axle is still steel.

There’s still steel in the most carbonized bicycle.

There’s new steels that are being developed and [they’re] playing with

Steel is what nails are made out of,

what barbed wire fences are made out of,

it’s train tracks.

It’s the industry,

it’s the most honest material.

Steel is a material that has got a personality.

Steel is the only material you can have with it’s inner core soft and the outer layer case hardened.

Tough.

There’s no other material like it.

The things you can do and the alloying, the joining, the forming, the refabricating, the changing of it.

There’s nothing like it.

There’s nothing that’s going to replace it.

That’s why I’m commited to steel.

Tom Ritchey.

Because the tubing choice for a small builder is excellent, whereas for titanium, or alluminium alloy it's pretty poor.

it's easy to modify, repair, and lasts.

material strength means you can (but don't have to) use small dia tubes.
This means that you can fit people really well, because tubing diameter is part of bike fitting.

This is the one that first made me take notice:

[img] [/img]

I was new to riding at the time and it was all big hydroformed tubes. This just looked so clean.

You couldn't have picked an uglier picture of a Soul to demonstrate your point though.

You couldn't have picked an uglier picture of a Soul to demonstrate your point though.

Au contraire.

I know that it isn't a great pic. It illustrates my point better if anything. This was the era when gopping bikes like this were in vogue.

[img] [/img]

Proof that steel is easily adaptable for small frame builders.

[img] [/img]

Why steel?

Because an independent frame builder can build a bike to suit your 'larger than average' proportions 🙂

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To add some balance to the 80s tech love-in.....

I can't stand steel frames, they're pretty much pointless, given the On One 456C frames are £400. All this stuff about flex and absorbing trail buzz is rubbish, the ultra stiff 456C is far more comfortable and suffers far less from buzz than the best steel frames. And all these frames have far better damping in the tyres.

The 456C is stronger and lighter too.

I can't see a single good reason to buy a steel frame, other than the proper cheap ones if that's all the cash you've got.

To add some balance to the 80s tech love-in.....

I can't stand steel frames, they're pretty much pointless, given the On One 456C frames are £400. All this stuff about flex and absorbing trail buzz is rubbish, the ultra stiff 456C is far more comfortable and suffers far less from buzz than the best steel frames. And all these frames have far better damping in the tyres.

The 456C is stronger and lighter too.

I can't see a single good reason to buy a steel frame, other than the proper cheap ones if that's all the cash you've got.

Ah, a challenge. You will see the light some day. You just will. Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

I can't stand steel frames

Pah.... I bet you don't even have a beard 😉

nedrapier, whats the green bike? bloody lovely.

And all these frames have far better damping in the tyres.

Oh dear! FAIL!

the ultra stiff 456C is far more comfortable and suffers far less from buzz than the best steel frames.

Over rough stuff they felt the same and the 456 had greater travel.

cynic-al - Member

And all these frames have far better damping in the tyres.

Oh dear! FAIL!

I've a bike.

It's brilliant 😛

It has a steel frame

The second and third paragraphs may or may not be in the correct order.

I've got nothing but steel bikes too.

My third bike ever was a GT Zaskar Team, I rode it a lot and liked it very much, but it took 5 or 6 builds and about 8 years for me to realise that it's just a crappy ride.

I'll maybe get an aluminium framed full suspension bike next year, but for now I'll stick with steel hardtails and rigid bikes.

Put simply.

Steel frame equivalent:

[img] [/img]

Carbon frame equivalent:

[img] [/img]

The latter is technically more advanced, faster, stiffer and optimized to within an inch of its life.

The former is better.

Dissect this argument until the cows come home if you like. I am right.

Yay! Good analogy dannyh 😀

I'm with you on that one and that the Funk La Ruta is a wonderful bike. Which is Ti 8)

Thread winning post. ?

Dissect this argument until the cows come home if you like. I am right.

He is too, you know!

He is too, you know!

If he wants to waste his time, then fine. Bears shit in woods. Popes are catholic. Steel frames are best.

Just post up your Gregg's P7 again if you feel the need to labour the point.

All dannyh has alluded to is that steel looks better than carbon, but the latter is the better product. I would stake money on him preferring to drive the latter even if he would rather own the former (and who wouldn't) 😉

All dannyh has alluded to is that steel looks better than carbon, but the latter is the better product. I would stake money on him preferring to drive the latter even if he would rather own the former (and who wouldn't)

I wouldn't even entertain driving the latter car if I owned the first one.

Logic has no place here - now depart.

That's a silly comparison though. You're suggesting that by being steel it's somehow more enjoyable. As I'm sure has been pointed out, there will be plenty of carbon bikes that are great to ride from a fun POV, just as there are plenty of horrible dull, soulless steel ones out there too.

(Owner of many mtbs, at various points, mostly steel, sometimes aluminium, some carbon. No obvious correlation between enjoyment and material)

Steel

[img] http://tesco.scene7.com/is/image/tesco/203-4306_PI_TPS350395?wid=493&ht=538 [/img]

Carbon

[img] [/img]

This smacks of emperor's new clothes.

I love my steel bike. I love it because it handles superbly. I think it'd handle just as well in carbon fibre but be 3lbs lighter and twice as expensive 🙂

Steel on STW =

* Niche [b]points[/b]
* Kudos [b]points[/b] - for those demonstrating that they are 'in the know' (wink)
* Retro I-was-in this-at-the-beginning [b]points[/b]
* Workmanly(or womanly) I-am-a-home-engineer-welding-legend [b]points[/b]

Hence, the multiplicity of posts posts here affirming an unending commitment to the only [i]true[/i] material used by [i]real[/i] mountain bikers.. 😉

A voice of dissent, if you will (I'm sure there are others thinking similarly, but not joining this abject steel worship).

I haven't ridden a steel framed bike since 1993 and I've no desire to. Although I remember it being great stuff - I'm sure this is rose tinted. In reality, its heavier and less strong than the carbon or aluminium that I now ride. AND it DOES rust!

Essentially it's completely non-sexy for the majority of biking applications. I'm at a loss as to why anyone would want to build (or ride) a steel framed full sus MTB, for example. Carbon can be as stiff, or as compliant as you like and tough as old boots, provided you treat it the right way.

The idea that, somehow, the majority of STWers (as it appears from this thread) are going to suddenly change into serial bike [i]repairers[/i] as opposed to [i]replacers[/i] because of the user-friendly properties of this wonder metal is laughable.

Just to add some balance here.. 😉

In response to the OP's question: It's nice stuff, probably - in some limited applications. But does not deserve unbridled worship. There's good reasons why alu and carbon are now used to make the overwhelming majority of 'enthusiast' bicycles.

no_eyed_deer - Member
...In response to the OP's question: It's nice stuff, probably - in some limited applications. But does not deserve unbridled worship. There's good reasons why alu and carbon are now used to make the overwhelming majority of 'enthusiast' bicycles.

I more or less agree with all the reasons steel isn't as "good" as the other materials or is obsolete, and I don't really believe that once you've fitted fattish tyres at low pressures you can really discern the difference in feel.

BUT

Of all the bikes I have had, there's only one that has been "sticky" and has stayed with me for over 15 years while other "better" bikes have come and gone.

So here's to my old STEEL 1x1 🙂

It's simple:
- steel frame believers are happy bike riders if they own a steel bike
- carbon frame believers are happy bike riders if they own a carbon bike
-> both are happy - what more could you want from your bike?

Too simple? Well, but there might be people around who can't be bothered to test bikes all the time. My first bike was steel, my second aluminium. The aluminium one was terrible. I went back to steel and never looked back (apart from my FS which is aluminum). Am I missing out on advanced technology? Probably. Do I care. No. I'm just a happy biker. 🙂

[u]But now to something far more serious:[/u]
You @dannyh don't do steel frames any justice if you take an blatant 250 GTO Replica as an equivalent for steel frames. Shame on you for this malicious mispic. Then again I didn't find an appropriate pic of an original either.

Anyway I think of steel frames more like a Lotus Seven and a carbon frame maybe like a Lotus Elise.

I'm at a loss as to why anyone would want to build (or ride) a steel framed full sus MTB

Then you'd hate my full sus - a DMR Bolt. I, however, think it's great. But don't listen to me, ask Olly Wilkins, probably a far better rider than anyone on here will ever be 😉

I also own, and ride, a Surly Krampus and a Dialled Alpine. Both steel, both great, and funnily enough neither has fallen to bits from rust yet.

I've just built up a steel single-speed for my son from an old 531 frame I bought off here. Even though the frame has to be at least 20 years old (26.8mm seat post!) it looks the [b]absolute business[/b] in a way that aluminium and carbon frames could only ever dream of.

Plus, it has a proper screw-in BB rather than some crappy press-fit piece of junk.

I've got a draw to steel bikes... Alu or carbon just doesn't interest me at all. I appreciate the tech in carbon or modern alu etc but I just don't find it sexy. I still have a 93 clockwork that I've single speeded and ride to work everyday with big apple tyres, i just love it, talk about a "life bike..." It goes on the back of my camper, to the shops, to work... I can remember wheeling the frame home in a shopping trolley home from the station to my college digs after getting the train to go buy it.

I have had alu bikes and after not feeling the love for an alu sub 5 I bought an 853 genesis latitude and was happy again...

I keep looking at steel bikes and fancy an escapade or similar perhaps a croix de fer... There's something just good looking and simple about a decent steel framed bike.

What does stress me out recently is that a few manufacturers have ditched 853 in the quest to build to a price perhaps so it's no longer possible to get an 853 replacement for my genesis without paying lots more or going custom.

There's something about the ring a steel frame makes when you flick it or catch it with something. The dull thud alu makes just doesn't compare.

I know it's all bullsbit and I do have a beard but I can't explain, it's just aesthetics I guess....

[url= http://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/bikes/adventure/frames/croix-de-fer-stainless-frameset ]And then there's steel like this...[/url]

[img] [/img]

dribble, dribble.....

Saw plenty of bikes like that at the Velothon. Glad I wasn't on one.

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4 out of 5 of my bikes are steel. It's not because I'm a steel die hard although I do have a soft spot for the skinny tubed asthetics and the sometimes 'springy' ride. More importantly though it's because they are all great fun bikes to ride.

I know it's all bullsbit and I do have a beard but I can't explain, it's just aesthetics I guess....

Yes its a emotional response. It's why we buy things, use things and most importantly why we communicate. I love steel bikes and I know they are not the best for many things but they suit me and make me happy. So does smelly cheese, doesn't mean its the best. But a carbon bike and a energy drink makes my poo runny. Each to your own. Buy a Krampus they rock!

Because people think that the lateral flex they're feeling is actually vertical flex, and so makes it comfortable. 😈

Best steel bikes I've owned:

Kona Lava Dome (double butted cromo)

Raleigh M-Trax (double butted cromo)

British Eagle Touristique (531ST)

All very comfortable for all-day rides, all have a good amount of 'zing'/damping

Best alu bikes I've owned:

Rocky Mountain Vertex (Easton Ultralite Taperwall)
Kinesis Maxlight (Easton Ultralite Taperwall)
Cannondale CAAD3

Cannondale is the stiffest/lightest yet still has thin seat-tube and stays so doesn't kill me with harsh.

I like the steel frames a lot, for different reasons than the alu ones. And vice versa.

Steel: Damping, feedback/spring, all day comfort. Can still be built light but is confidence inspiring/resilient/repairable. Could be just an overblown perception but there it is. It feels like it will last forever.

Alu: Lighter, stiffer, feels more 'exact'. Climbs like a goat, accelerates like a missile, little to no lost energy when stomping.

If I had to have just one bike it would be steel, it's what I cut my teeth on and remains the material that has a certain something that I like in my bikes.

As others have said - a crappy steel or a crappy alu frame is crappy no matter. But still give me crappy steel over crappy aluminium. Worst steel bike I've owned os a Raleigh Apex with Reynolds K2 tubing (think is internally octagonal or somesuch) - worst alu was a Raleigh X1. The X1 was deader and heavier than a dead heavy dead thing. I literally hated it. The Apex, while heavy, still has some 'feel' to it. Just about. Am sure it will outlive me.

Decent steel HT's can be very good. A steel framed FS bike makes no sense to me at all, horses for courses and all.

A good alloy frame is better than a crap steel frame, and a good steel frame is better than a crap alloy frame. I'm sure it's just personal choice.

I'm sure carbon is the same, but it's too expensive for me to want to find out!

A steel framed FS bike makes no sense to me at all, horses for courses and all.

Read Cy's essay on the subject (it's on the geeky section of the cotic site) and I think there's a lecture he gave in the engineering dept. at Sheffield on youtube explaining it. Essentially at bike tube scales the stiffness/strength/weight of aluminium and steel structures are the same because by the time you've made a steel frame stiff enough it's more than strong enough, and by the time you've made an aluminium frame strong enough it's very stiff. So the Rocket frame was actually very stiff because on a bike frame things like the seatube are a fairly fixed diameter, so a steel seatube will make a much stiffer location for a pivot than an aluminium one.

Why Steel? Just remember my material science stress tests at university 😉 I love the skinny tubes on my rock lobster 853, love the way it actually seems to flex and absorb the trail.

One note I do have I have just built a Cotic Soul 650b and in comparison to the Rock lobster (also 853), I prefer the rock Lobster. I can ride faster on the Cotic which should indicate a flaw in my preference, but I prefer the frame on the Rock lobster, it just feels better. It is probably the fact I've had my Rock Lobster for 12 years and it because I'm more used to it. However the stats from my own rides proves the Cotic is better...

BR
Jerry

Steel is good on a HT as it's better then alu and cheaper then ti/carbon.

Ti is better then steel but then it should be for the price difference.

Have not really riden carbon enough to comment but expect the ti rule to count.

Aluminium is just a bit meh for HT. By the time you've spent enough to get a good un you may as well go the whole way and get ti/carbon.

IMO of course.

<pedant>than not then</pedant> 😀

Apologies, I'm a thick Northerner.