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I think Bike Park Wales is great. Most mountain bikers seem to agree. But I’ve only been once because it’s 5-6 hours away from where I live in Yorkshire. Why are there not more places using the BPW model all over the country? Contrary to what some say on the why aren’t people mountain biking thread, I’d say it’s pretty healthy up in Yorkshire and Derbyshire, so I’m certain if something similar opened up near Sheffield (and lots of other places a long way from Wales) they’d be plenty of takers if the trails were even half as good as BPW.
So what are the barriers? Is buying the land more difficult than I think? The rest would appear relatively straight forward as a business model I’d have thought?
There are, to an extent. I think bpw has had quite a bit of funding from grants/schemes to get to where it's sustainable.
Dyfi is like bpw, antur is like bpw, innerleithen is like bpw.
But bpw does do the "something for everyone" better than all.
To be fair, I should have clarified - in England! I’m aware of Antur and Dyfi but haven’t been as assumed they were more DH than trail/enduro. Wales and Scotland definitely do mtb projects loads better than us, but I still can’t see why, for example, the north of England can’t do similar?
To be fair, I should have clarified - in England! I’m aware of Antur and Dyfi but haven’t been as assumed they were more DH than trail/enduro. Wales and Scotland definitely do mtb projects loads better than us, but I still can’t see why, for example, the north of England can’t do similar?
Well southern England is a non starter due to lack of elevation but if you think of Pearce races in Hopton area there's loads of trails, I bet they'd do a decent crack on some hills there to make a 4-5 run center if they tried.
But the area bpw fills is vast. Where else is there that much elevation.
Peaks probably but how many millions upon millions to buy a wood 1/2 a mile or more wide.
But the area bpw fills is vast. Where else is there that much elevation.
I've looked at the land area of BPW and Dyfi and they're way smaller than lots of the free access trail centres we have here in Australia. But we don't have many of the paid and shuttled bike parks either. I'm pretty sure it's the insurance and other bureaucracy that makes it hard to manage.
Most places here are being funded by government to support economic development.
Fair enough re the south east. There’s still scope in other regions though!
Getting the right balance of accessibility/location, existing roads, gradient and space and good ground to dig in, can't be easy, especially as you need it to be longterm- short term leasing a forest isn't practical and you need it to not get logged out. And it definitely helped that it was already a popular biking area, a lot of people's first visit to BPW would have come off a welsh trailcentres trip, mine did. Add in funding, it was a huge gamble when they started that place even though they did pretty well for drawing in outside money. And then you have to avoid any of the nightmares of severe weather, tree disease, etc. I gather they were pretty close to getting wiped out by covid. And so on. The biggest trick of all probably is to keep on improving, to not settle on laurels or get in a rut- they've made mistakes too but learned from them. That's all really hard to do.
I guess a good counterexample is antur- I really like antur but the location isn't as good and neither is the hill itself, they've got a good operation but it's more limited. Revs I've never been to but they were doing a great job it seemed til they got nuked by the tree disease. Inners is too steep and confined, Ae and Nevis in the absolute arse of nowhere, Fod is brilliant but I've spunked higher than the top of its hill... Dirt Farm should be a really good model I think, so compact and that brilliant focus on quality not quantity, but somehow it just seems to struggle to get any attention.
When I'm driving through the Dales, I often dreamily wonder, why an enterprising farmer hasn't set one up. Even it was possible with National Park rules, would it be the same without trees?
Coincidently, I just booked me, my wife and 14 yr old on at BPW this August (£162). I wouldn't do this in advance at Antur because its too weather depandant, even a wet day at BPW is a great day. Dyfi is way too extreme for them.
Like you, I'm from Yorkshire, we will be making it part of our August van trip.
I think it's a land cost and insurance issue. A really good Bike Park could work in southern England, BPW may be 491m at the summit, but the trail centre is at 230m on the OS Map and most people never ride down past the centre, meaning you can make a good centre off of a 250m hill. Now, there are plenty of 250-300m hills around the west country and other areas. A good example is 417 Bike Park (Gloucester). I like 417 but always feel it's too short and too much crammed into a small area, if they had double the land the trails would drop at a lower gradient and be much better. It's not a lack of locations, it's the mad cost of land and insurance. To set up a bike park in England you are likely looking at an initial start up of £15-£20million.
Fair enough re the south east. There’s still scope in other regions though
Are there parks in the lumpier places north of London, similar to Rogate, Windmill, Okeford? These paces make the most of what we have down here to create something fun for a day's visit. Kinda the best we can hope for in this part of the country, but there must be more, bigger ones 'uo there'?
As @coconut mentioned it's the cost , knowing roughly how much very short distances of trail cost to produce it's definitely a factor .
I’m hoping more of the trails at Revs get opened up as that was my go to uplift destination. Admittedly it’s decent a drive for some.
Probably because BPW cost a hell of a lot to set up and develop
From everything I’ve read about it it strikes me as an incredibly difficult business to start - and with BPW already existing and being within a reasonable drive of a big chunk of the UK population, I think the business case for another similar bike park is very risky.
I've wondered the same. You'd have thought there'd be something suitable in Yorkshire or Lancashire in an area that needs regeneration? Something like Lee/Crag quarry?
Is buying the land more difficult than I think?
Yes pretty much that. Large land parcels are often leased (10-25 years) not bought out right.
What looks like a simple situation on paper/looking at a map can often be much more complicated with multiple land owners. They can range from Crown Estates/aristocracy to quasi government organisations, trusts, government contractors/operators bound by legislation and covenants, who simply cannot/don't want to offer leases, sale or permission for other uses.
The reason we have very few indoor bikes parks is because most commercial premises are owned by landlords who will not take the risk of being left with a building with tons of dirt pilled high should the tenant go bankrupt.
I do get the cost is high, but other places, particularly BPW, have proven it can be a success - just not in England. Surely all the barriers mentioned above existed at BPW, Dyfi etc? You’d think someone somewhere would have the right circumstances to make a good go of it - and if it were in Yorkshire or the North East it’d be far enough away from BPW not to be a competitor and build a loyal customer base.
OP, I totally agree with you, mtbing is very healthy in Yorkshire. Tons of kids (lads actually, where are the ladies?) 12+ smashing about on MTBs, probably helped by the low cost of 2nd hand bikes
My cousin's partner built a small bike park with massive jumps on some land they have.
It was dreadful to go and they couldn't get insurance to make it cost effective. It's just used my him and his mates. My cousin's invited me to ride but the jumps look massive, skinny and I'm reluctant to do a 6h round trip to look at them and go nope to rising them.
I guess the genius of BPW is there is something for everyone. I went with some mates who ride intermittently. The least keen mtber still managed to get down a bunch of the trails. He finds Sherwood pines red a challenge.
To get a trail that's just a wee bit harder than an easy trail center red all the way to something like a BPW black requires a load of trails on opening day.
There is supposed to be an uplift center going in near me in the Vale of Belvoir. The elevation is not massive. I will be reluctant to pay for something like that when I could get out to the peaks for free.
https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/p/bike-park---nottinghamshire
Last news I can find is 2023. I hope they are still going, but I'll be surprised if it materializes.
The OP makes an assertion that I'm not sure holds true.
Bike Park Wales is great. Most mountain bikers seem to agree.
Most is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. Maybe there just isn't enough demand for that type of facility.
I will be reluctant to pay for something like that when I could get out to the peaks for free.
And that may be closer to the reality.
Its a funding issue rather than a cost issue - there needs to be will to attract people to an area and have them spend money as well as time there.
For that to be the case there needs to a problem, economically, that attracting visitors solves and a situation where those visits are beneficial broadly beyond the trail centre carpark. If you look back to the genesis of the 7 Stanes centres in the Scottish Borders the 'problem' was the aftermath of Foot and Mouth disease and the decimation of tourism in that area. There was investment in mountain biking in those areas, but also, pointedly, not in areas closer to glasgow and the central belt - the sites needed to be 'daytrip' distances for the bulk of likely users
If you take your own situation of having to drive several hours to get to a decent trail centre - thats a plus not a minus - you'll have at least bought a meal locally, maybe stayed a night or two. One keen rider can bring a whole family along for the day or a weekend who'll get on with other stuff to bid the time while the rider rides and so on.
The fact you and people like you travel the distances you do to ride demonstrates the investment was worth while - you're doing exactly what that funding was intended to achieve.
The problem with much of England for similar developments is theres generally too large a population locally to any site you'd seek to develop - you'd get an over-subscribed trail centre mostly used by riders who can turn up, ride and be home again in half an hour and theres no value in that, economically, for the surrounding area.
Bike Park Wales is great. Most mountain bikers seem to agree.
Most is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. Maybe there just isn't enough demand for that type of facility.
It's the Maccy Dees of mountain biking. A lot of people do only want DH thrills and jumps, there's nothing wrong with that! Would I call it great, maybe not, but there's no denying it serves up what a lot of people want.
The OP makes an assertion that I'm not sure holds true.
Bike Park Wales is great. Most mountain bikers seem to agree.Most is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. Maybe there just isn't enough demand for that type of facility.
Well perhaps I should have said ‘plenty’, but it’s pretty undeniable that lots of mountain bikers like bike parks - in this country and around the world. Certainly in the context of this thread I’m suggesting there would be enough uptake for potentially a similar place to BPW in the north of England.
I will be reluctant to pay for something like that when I could get out to the peaks for free.
And that may be closer to the reality.
I don’t get your point here. I think plenty of riders ride all sorts, not just one thing or another. Bike park one weekend. Trail centre another. Natural ride another. Those that don’t like bike parks won’t go, obviously, but that’s irrelevant to the point I was making.
I've wondered the same. You'd have thought there'd be something suitable in Yorkshire or Lancashire in an area that needs regeneration? Something like Lee/Crag quarry?
If it was built anywhere near a population centre in the north of England it'd need to have a secure perimeter and not be crossed by any public rights of way to stop scrotes on electric bikes and Van lifers accessing it for free and ruining it. I'm surprised BPW doesn't have more problems as the middle fire road is a bridleway.
I do get the cost is high, but other places, particularly BPW, have proven it can be a success - just not in England.
BPW got a large grant (around £2m) via the EU over a decade ago which help fund the initial park (with half the trails it has now). That ship has now sailed and the relevant startup costs today would also be significantly higher. Couple that with a "struggling" industry and you can probably see why there may be a reluctance to stump up the cash.
I don’t get your point here.
My point is simply that the market/demand may not be there. If you've not polled several thousand mountain bikers then your assumption that "most" would want to use something like BPW - and frequently enough - may be on shaky ground. That's not to say that there isn't value in it or that it's not fulfilling some folks requirements, just maybe not enough to let it pay back the acquisition, build and running costs.
The fact that bpw, antur, caersws, Dyfi, Danny's Descent, etc are all rammed day in day out gives a decent indication that demand is there.
I bet if you built something up in Cumbria it'd be rammed.
The truth is though , these places exist by the bucket load so whilst I think there could be more, I'm not sure there needs to be
The truth is though , these places exist by the bucket load so whilst I think there could be more, I'm not sure there needs to be
Living in Yorkshire makes them all a trip rather than a day out. If something half as good as BPW was comfortably do'able in a day I'd be there every month rather than every year.
The fact that bpw, antur, caersws, Dyfi, Danny's Descent, etc are all rammed day in day out gives a decent indication that demand is there.
The demand may be there, but the lack of significant amounts of "free" start-up money makes the barriers to entry considerably higher than when BPW started.
Are they actually rammed day in day out - weekdays, middle of winter etc? Nothing against the others but I'd wager BPW is at a higher percentage of its capacity than the others during off-peak times.. mainly due to the extra facilities the EU money helped fund (and better catchment area).
I know of a few people who live with some fantastic natural trails pretty much on their doorstep, but they drive to Glentress and ride the exact same trails every weekend.
They know what they'll get on the 12 trails at Glentress, they don't know what they'll get on their doorstep and they aren't willing to venture locally.
We do seem to be getting plenty trail centres now becoming big flow jumpy motorways - plenty people are happy with that, but there are plenty who don't ride them as it isn't their thing...basically, the sport isn't a one-trick pony any longer and there isn't room for everything on everyone's doorstep.
Needs a lot of land and a lot of money to make anything...so unless their is a very benevolent landowner, it is going to be very difficult for anything to get created.
I was out riding some of the lovely trails round Bingley today and had the same thought as Gribs, the area would also need to be free of Rights of Way.
innerleithen is like bpw.
But bpw does do the "something for everyone" better than all.
I agree with this.
Inners is the closest thing to BPW I've ridden, but it's not so commodified and lacks the clearly defined trails for less-advanced riders.
I think the best place I've been for another BPW would be Barry Sidings - it would just need a lot of easier trails adding, as the current stuff is on the techier side.
You'd have thought there'd be something suitable in Yorkshire or Lancashire in an area that needs regeneration? Something like Lee/Crag quarry?
I'd agree with this, needs to be somewhere you could get to easily from a lot of places, cheap land, not too many nimbys and possibility of regeneration funds.
North East Wales might be another possibility. Something like Cwm Woods, but probably not actually there.
Inners does have trails for less-advanced riders. It's called glentress. This was the model way back. Inners red (as was 20+ years ago) was no where near gt red and much more gnarly. Unfortunately it took a few years to get the link path sorted.
You sure? Inners was always the DH side of things and Glentress was the XC sibling...they didn't tend to be mixed like they are now for a good while...
Inners does have trails for less-advanced riders. It's called glentress.
GT is a much better all-ability option, I agree - but it just has the occasional uplift service that I'm aware of, and I'm not sure how high that goes anyway?
Inners is the established regular uplift centre in the Tweed Valley, and just caters for intermediate to advanced riders really.
Close to you there's Farmer John's just outside of Marple, but there's no uplift as it's not practical given the terrain. I'm sure there are a few other places where there are trails for riding, but not the uplift bit
I've never been there - but what's the actual USP of BPW? "Something for everyone" is mentioned above, but what does that actually mean?
Gut feel is that with the mass adoption of ebikes, uplift services must be struggling outside of pure DH spots? Why would you pay for an uplift if you can spin up on an ebike for free, and probably lap faster...
The "why isn't there a bike park in the Peak District?" thing comes up every so often. IMO, the Peak District IS a bike park. There's countless miles of great road and gravel riding, loads and loads of old-school big-day-out trail riding, steep and loamy enduro trails in a lot of the commercial woodland. If you're after berm'n'jump bike park trails, there's Parkwood, Cannings, Greno in Sheffield, plus Farmer Johns and I'm sure other options the other side of the Peak. Wharncliffe for hand-built craziness. Sure you have to do a bit of pedalling about the place, but that's why bikes have pedals, right? There's also all the food and drink emporiums you could want to match taste and wallets, not tied to the single cafe at the bottom of the hill.
Tweed Valley I see as a similar thing. I don't think of it as "Glentress" and "Inners" and "Golfy". You can ride all of them in the same day, and there's Yair and Thornilee and Cademuir too if you want a bit more peace. Do some winch and plummet at Golfie, ride up the XC at Inners, maybe do a trail or 2, then continue over onto the Southern Upland Way and the 3 Brethren for some big day out vibes, drop down through Yair, trundle back along the valley.
Basically, you don't need a fenced in playpen and pay-to-ride, you just need a map and a bit of inquisitiveness.
Are there still active plans to turn Golfie into a bike park BTW?
Anywhere that’s a national park, bike parks won’t happen. The Peak District national park “managers” want to keep people out, not have more visitors, and I suspect it’s the same in other areas.
I've never been there - but what's the actual USP of BPW? "Something for everyone" is mentioned above, but what does that actually mean?
Lots of well built and maintained trails at a variety of grades, plus a reliable uplift. If you just want to ride blues all day there's plenty of variety or some people appear to want to ride a consistent jump line all day. The only thing it really lacks is steep tech trails.
There's a mini "bike park" at Cairngorm Mountain.
There was also one planned for Fort Augustus but I don't know how that's progressing.
Simple. Money. BPW got a huge amount of funding from the EU because of the levels of deprivation in the area. That derailed the project for other investors to support it. Clearly EU funding is no longer available so it needs an alternative source. I wouldnt fancy been a politician arguing for public money to be spent on a mountain biking venue in the current economic climate how ever strong the business case could be
Anywhere that’s a national park, bike parks won’t happen. The Peak District national park “managers” want to keep people out, not have more visitors, and I suspect it’s the same in other areas.
100%
I get the feeling that LDNPA grudgingly tolerates MTBs at best, while Eryri NP are still borderline hostile.
Fort Augustus
Article gives an insight into the funding and delivery timescales (IIRC it was proposed in 2022).
I hadn't even seen that Loch Ness plan before, so if it went ahead there would be bike parks at Glencoe and at Glendoe 😀
And of course Dunoon might become the next BPW, but with a gondola:
Plans unveiled for Scotland's 'next world-class adventure destination' | The Herald
Or it might not.
Gut feel is
..er well, it's wrong. But as you've never had the pleasure of a trip to BPW, I guess you wouldn't understand. Spent many years riding up, down, with a map, on natural trails, on purposebuilt trails. Then BPW came along and it's a different way to enjoy riding your bike. I only go once a year, with my son, but had some of the best weekends doing that. And had other amazing weekends doing other types of riding. You don't get it, you don't get it, but that doesn't mean everyone has to do what you do.
Couple of weekends ago was doing an uplift day with a bunch of 20 somethings (only my bike had a motor). Another great day to remember.
I've got an ebike, but next time at BPW it'll be going on the uplift.
I've never been there - but what's the actual USP of BPW? "Something for everyone" is mentioned above, but what does that actually mean?
Loads of colour-graded trails (with plenty on the easier side), good signage and constant trail maintenance.
Even if it's a bit commoditised for your taste as a rugged individualist, it's hugely popular with riders of all levels. Probably because it's good accessible fun.
I haven't actually been there for 10 years myself though, as I'm also a bit of a rugged individualist 😀
The USP is nicely demonstrated here