[Closed] Why are we seen as "different"?

It's just a them and us thing. Small minded people dislike others who are different to them.

But he was a right fat c*#t - he can't dislike everyone not like him - can he?

You don't like larger people?

Social psychology of prejudice innit

I love everyone, just can't understand why others don't.

Lycra + hairy legs?

More seriously I think there's a real social identity thing going on with cyclists our transport choices don't conform with a norm that many people identify with.

Cars and the implied status that accompanies them, the importance of being a good driver, and massive part that cars play in people's daily lives just means if you're not a "car believer" you must be out of their group...and therefore a target.

Of course the propensity to remember only that which confirms your view of the world means every cyclist who rides like a **** sticks in your angry driver mind and every one who rides considerately gets instantly forgotten.

That and to quote suicidal tendencies "there's a lot of stupid people thinking a lot of stupid thoughts".

Small minded monkeys brains unable to cope with anything outside their small minded monkey lives. Same reason they gather on the terraces every weekend and watch 22 millionaire retards ruin a perfectly good lawn 🙂

Think it's bad being a cyclist. Try being a Peugeot driver, nothing challenges the car morons than a lack of motoring aspiration. Might buy a Dacia next 🙂

you lectured him, he insulated you. don't let it bother you.

At least you'll be warm...

Could be something to do with looking gay with all that lycra, poncey shoes and helmet on. Plus you are so unsuccessful in life you need to ride a bike to work instead of being a real man and having a car. And here you are challenging someone obviously much higher up the food-chain than you about their driving.

What sort of reaction do you expect?

Cyclists have more blood flowing around their brain because of the exercise they take, so are more intelligent.

Some, though not all, car drivers, have reduced blood flow to their brain due to their sedentary life styles. Understanding the world is hard for them.

It's not necessarily being a cyclist that triggers it - there are a lot of people these days who feel they can do whatever they like, and if anyone gets in their way or points out their errors, they use whatever occurs to them to fire insults back. If you'd been a pedestrian with a dog, walking across the crossing, you'd have been insulted for being a dog owner, even if the prat had a dog at home himself.

I regularly notice how few drivers take heed of these bike boxes. I commute by car and notice it every day - today was a Police van in lane beside me, right at front of box ..

Joe Public are an inactive, lazy and status-obsessed bunch.

They see cyclists as somehow cheating the system and "getting in their way". The fact that the person on a bike is not driving a German saloon, SUV or pickup truck(with a rufty-tufty name) suggests to them that the bike rider should not even be on the same thoroughfare as them.

There do seem to be a large number of very fat men (then again, fat is now the norm for UK adults) who get angry with people riding bikes. These people would probably suffer a health scare if they did attempt to commute by bike.

-There may be an element of male jealousy involved.

This doesn't explain the aggressive women in big SUVs, though.

Think it's bad being a cyclist. Try being a Peugeot driver, nothing challenges the car morons than a lack of motoring aspiration. Might buy a Dacia next

Standard response to "what car do drive?"

"Oh... um... a white one."

I mean I know exactly what I've got and know how to change its timing belt but ivcan't think of worse chat.

i just tend to mind my own business whilst out on my bike. it helps to avoid confrontations.

"He was clearly a Daily Mail reading tw*t"

Well, we're all guilty of making quick assumptions, aren't we!

It was my attempt at irony

At least you'll be warm...

I noticed. 😀

I've pulled up next to cars that have stopped inside the cycling box. I know it's wrong maybe they don't who knows but I do know that lecturing grown adults can lead to more problems than it's worth when on a bike. Just get on with the job in hand and that's protecting yourself. You know you're a vulnerable road user so concentrate on anticipating and avoiding problems. You'll be much safer for it rather than acting lord of the road. To be honest guys like you really annoy me as you're not making life any easier for the rest of us.

It's because cyclists are still a minority on the road in the UK. Doesn't happen in Holland because everyone cycles.

I've confronted a couple of drivers before, one in a convertible who had no reason to do it other than block me. They just look dumb founded that a peasant on a bicycle has the audacity to comment on their driving.

I've decided life is too short to continue to confront them so I just sit in front of them, in between the box and where the pedestrian crossing is.

Hes probably like the morons at work who hate cyclists and traffic jams.

Bigblackheinoustoe - you might have the impression that I am some kind of cycling vigilante - quite a long way from the truth. I wasn't asking for comment on my action - I was asking why cyclists are seen as different.

My comment may have been passive aggressive, but there was no malice involved, and he could have said "yes mate, I know". Instead he offered his jaundiced view of every cyclist, most of whom he probably doesn't know (he doesn't know me for a start).

If I feel the need to talk to idiots crossing ASLs on a red light, I usually tell them it's a £100 fine and 3 points and that coppers have started taking it seriously now, real friendly like. Most drivers seem genuinely grateful for the advice and surprised that what they are doing is that illegal. There is still the odd one who calls me a special word, they're the ones I blow kisses to.

What Greybeard says. Plus, cars give folk an extra sense of...something. So many people flash others in/out of junctions and lanes, not because they are considerate or whatever, but because they want to weild some sense of empowerment that so many associate with being sat in a car. It usually has nothing to do with anything other than their own sense of entitlement and wanting to be seen to weild it.

Ask these folk to just back off the accelerator because someone isnt going the speed they want to travel / is clearly going to make it around the roundabout before they get chance to pull out / is on a bike / countless other scenarios, where they're not going to get a thank you wave and instead just behave normally and be patient, quietly......then they behave like the dicks that they are, which, sadly, seems to be the default characteristic of most folk nowadays.

Something about cars that makes people think they are entitled to travel the speed they want without impediment. I'll be damned if I can figure out why that is, but equally CBA. I'll just put it down to people are dicks 🙂

We're an out group. People who are a bit dim and lacking in self esteem tend to pick on out groups to make themselves feel better. It's no longer acceptable to pick on people because of their race or gender (and most of the bullies seem to have worked that out) leaving cyclists as one of the largest remaining groups it is still "acceptable" to pick on.

[quote=bigblackheinoustoe ]To be honest guys like you really annoy me as you're not making life any easier for the rest of us.

Really? The people who really annoy me are those who actively endanger my life by driving too close. Cyclists having a word with bad drivers don't even register on the list.

It's Envy

We're awesome, they're not, they don't like it.

Sometimes it's legitimate to stop in an ASL box. If the traffic is slow moving, you're right by the lights (in a car) and they go red that's where you have to stop.

And if you get gobby with a stranger they're going to get gobby back. The words used are irrelevant.

[quote=BigJohn ]Sometimes it's legitimate to stop in an ASL box. If the traffic is slow moving, you're right by the lights (in a car) and they go red that's where you have to stop.

Unless the OP is being particularly weird and stopping at a green light, then I'm not sure of the relevance of that to this thread.

Meanwhile I'm not sure how what he said to the driver is "being gobby" (and nor do I see what is wrong with challenging bad behaviour). Of course a dick will be gobby back to you if you say anything to them.

Sometimes it's legitimate to stop in an ASL box. If the traffic is slow moving, you're right by the lights (in a car) and they go red that's where you have to stop.

True, but how about not entering the box* if you can't get over the junction - like with the actual stop line?

*Fnnnaaar

recall reading a letter a few years ago that said something along the lines of..."cyclists need mandatory training so they don't grow up to be bad drivers"

used to walk to school with kids...surprised me how many people assumed you didn't own a car...that's how society is

i've concluded waste of time lecturing people about their bad driving...they either don't care a toss about others or are just bad drivers with no idea what is going on around them...neither type is going to change

[IMG] [/IMG]

Sometimes it's legitimate to stop in an ASL box. If the traffic is slow moving, you're right by the lights (in a car) and they go red that's where you have to stop.

It is an offence to cross the relevant stopline when the signal is red. Once you have crossed the stopline the signals are no longer directing you, so if you cross the stopline on green and then get stuck then there is no offence, unless you are sitting in a yellow box 😉

With regard to the OP, genuinely the people who hate cyclists tend to only think about a very small sphere around them. They will burn fuel overtaking a cyclist even though there is a red signal just up ahead because they only focus on what is right in front of them, they don't look up ahead and they certainly can't visualise the bigger picture.
To them everything is in their way, but they mostly accept other vehicles as they are normal. To them roads are built for motor vehicles and cyclists just get in their way because they are too slow moving, they are an unnecessary obstacle and should not be on the road. They look for things to justify their thinking, bloody cyclists jumping queues, going though red lights, getting in my bloody way again, etc.

Because they only look within their own little sphere they are unable to work out that sitting behind a bike for a bit is unlikely to affect their overall journey time, and that every single occupancy car trip exchanged for cycling removing 0.8 cars worth of congestion off the road which actually shortens their journey times.

Its not just towards cyclist, humans are quite capable bring utter pricks.
The narrative created around people on bikes in UK(and Aus/US) is so distorted by the press and motor vehicle intrest groups that it legitimises running people over and what not.

Who cares if he was in the box? Outside my son's school is a tight ratrun alleywayvthat commuting cyclists ride down. I've asked them not to and been met with 'why not'? None of your business etc etc. On our FB group there are mother's who have been hit by bikes and sworn at. How can you defend cyclists? I've been told to f off when I beeped a rider not to try and undertake me as I was indicating/turning left at lights- no he was blasting up and I could see he was gung-ho so warned him with a beep.

Then there's the red light jumpers. So I can't defend 'us'. I was once asked at a party 'aren't you supposed to grow up out of bikes as you grow up/get older'?!??

There are some logical fallacies in the above statement.

i've concluded waste of time lecturing people about their bad driving...they either don't care a toss about others or are just bad drivers with no idea what is going on around them...neither type is going to change

Agree. Whenever I do get a driver to stop to point out what they have done they are completely unaware of how dangerous their driving was/what they did wrong and are immediately in a defensive mode.

Don't expect a thanks or a sorry as you won't get one.

"Daily Mail reading tw*t,

seems like a couple of prejudices going on here, maybe ask yourself why you feel that way about daily mail readers and you might have your own answer, ill informed generalisations about individuals

It's because cyclists are still a minority on the road in the UK. Doesn't happen in Holland because everyone cycles.

I read somewhere that many view cyclists/cycling as frivolous, a past-time, or a hobby, and not a proper vehicle for transport. Many people's last experience of cycling is when they were children themselves. Once you hold those views it's easy to see them "getting in the way" of all the adults and people with things to do.

There's probably lots of work to do to challenge that view, and I'm not sure that just assuming they're all "Daily Mail reading ****s" is the way forward

Lester - Member

"Daily Mail reading tw*t,

seems like a couple of prejudices going on here, maybe ask yourself why you feel that way about daily mail readers and you might have your own answer, ill informed generalisations about individuals

As I said above when this was mentioned - it was my attempt at irony. Clearly lost. I have no view on Daily Mail readers as I couldn't pick one out of a crowd.

In general I agree with many posts above about us being seen as a minority. When asked if I am a "cyclist" I tend to say that I ride a bike a lot, but I don't like referring to myself as a cyclist as I also walk a lot, drive a car, work in a company, etc etc. I just find it sad that so many apparently rational people view "cyclists" as an irritant/separate type of person, but couldn't pick one out of a group (lycra aside).

Does lycra / helmet wearing enforce the view of cyclists being different? Should we wear "normal" clothes?

Whenever I do get a driver to stop to point out what they have done they are completely unaware of how dangerous their driving was/what they did wrong and are immediately in a defensive mode.

I used to find this too, telling someone what they've done wrong never goes down well, and I'd occasionally get into arguments too, so now I always open with something along the lines of

"flipping heck, you really scared me back there, I thought I was going to get really hurt!" -- with a little bit of forced panic on my face 😉

9 times out of 10 that puts people in an apologetic mood instead of defensive, it's then a lot easier to explain, and for them to see what they did was dangerous if you focus on the outcome before the action.

An angry voice and opening with "You did X badly/wrong dangerously…" = defence, before you've even got to telling them it could have hurt you.

A scared voice and opening with "I was scared, felt in danger…" = empathy (hopefully), and then comes the realisation/explanation that it was due to their actions.

Coupled with the fact that there is a massive social thing about being a 'good driver' people don't want to be told they are doing it wrong, especially by someone they don't know and not in a car. But that same desire to be a good driver kicks in with the other approach as most people won't want to be seen as someone who scares people. Works especially well if there is a passenger in the car. Except of course the minority of true -expletives- who revel in scaring people and won't respond to any approach.

It has made a massive difference to the nature of the 'discussions' I've had with people driving dangerously around me now, it humanises it, and it's actually a kind of subconscious submission to start by exposing that you are the weaker party, rather then all guns blazing trying to be the dominant one, sometimes hard to force yourself to do that but works very well.

iainc - Member
I regularly notice how few drivers take heed of these bike boxes. I commute by car and notice it every day - today was a Police van in lane beside me, right at front of box ..

Anyway, the car driver was a moron and like so many people couldn't cope with being challenged. You should've dragged him out of his car by his neck and pointed out that you were, in fact, obeying the red light whilst he was breaking the law, before mercilessly beating him to within an inch of his life, and leaving him there as a warning to others. That or post on an internet forum.

As others have said, people don't like to be told.

It's an important question you raise though, and "how can we change it?" is an even more important follow-up Q.

I'd like to see more public information efforts on how to drive safely around cyclists and emphasising that cyclists are people's mums, dads, sons & daughters.

I think a lot of the issue with conflict between cars and bikes is the lack of eye contact. Cars approach cyclists from behind, unseen and only seeing the back of the cyclists head. If/when they cut cyclist up or whatever they then drive on knowing that they're pretty anonymous (numberplate aside) and the cyclist can only see the back of their head. Drivers seem to find that anonymity emboldening. They're anonymous and the cyclist is a nobody.

I find cars behave very differently around walkers on the road, who are just as vulnerable, but thats because walkers and drivers are usually looking at each other.

I sometime wonder if it would make sense for all cycle traffic to run counter to car traffic

I'd like to see more public information efforts on how to drive safely around cyclists

Then we can get to see the [url= https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2014/jan/31/bike-blog-cycling-campaign-asa ]ASA[/url] totally **** it

Does lycra / helmet wearing enforce the view of cyclists being different? Should we wear "normal" clothes?

My previous commute was 4-5 miles, I did it in normal clothes (at a gentle pace) - people couldn't understand how I wasn't going to get sweaty/need special clothes/need a shower, but ask someone to walk for 20 minutes and they're unlikely to insist on getting changed and showered at the end of it!

The helmet is pretty unnecessary if you're just pooting about too - compared with other risks you might face anyway, like walking or driving.

As others have said, people don't like to be told.

Theres two things that people absolutely don't accept unsolicited advice on - their driving and their parenting skills.

I no longer challenge drivers directly, it's really not worth the aggravation and stress, people aren't normally in the frame of mind to receive a critique of their driving, and I don't need to find out just where they sit on the fighty nobber spectrum...

We've all made mistakes and oversights when driving, cycling or walking, and most of us don't normally feel any repercussions or hurt others... it's dumb luck, That Doesn't make it right of course but does put it in context for me, everyone is fallible and most people are aware of their mistakes and faults, even if they're conditioned never to acknowledge them to other, especially when challenged... That's a wider social issue though.

TBH my attitude has changed to borderline apathy, don't go trying to do the police's job for them, especially if you're not qualified or being paid for it, get home safe and it's a win...

Of course when I come to power anyone driving and using their mobile will receive an on the spot ban...

I find cars behave very differently around walkers on the road, who are just as vulnerable, but thats because walkers and drivers are usually looking at each other.

Yes. If the same people riding bikes and driving cars were to walk along a pavement together, it is unlikely that many of them would barge past or hurl abuse at each other, risking a violent encounter.

Good debate. Twisty nailed it for me with the short-sighted point.

Straight out of our office block is a road leading to 4 way lights (one of which is Newcastle police station!) and at least 1 evening a week someone actively tries to block me from filtering. It's normally jammed up with 50+ cars and you only get 10-15 through per cycle.. These idiots only see the immediate, but fail to consider that I am 1 less car in the bloody traffic jam!

I've come to the conclusion that at least 90% of the entire population are complete idiots and/or dicks and most of them have cars (some of them have bikes!).

I wish my mate still rode bikes as he was a proper vigilante.. Best story was the bloke who cut him up on a roundabout - my mate screamed lots of swear words before proceeding to cycle up the hill to his house. Bloke had spun round in his car and come after my mate for a "word". As soon as my mate spots him it was bike down, helmet off ready for a brawl. Bloke twigs and spins round (again) with my mate chasing him (now on foot) screaming "what the * did you turn round for you * if you didn't want a * fight you * pansy **** OFF!!!". I reckon there's a fair few drivers kicking round the North East that probably now think twice about cutting up a cyclist!

Basically, Britain is not a cycling nation, 'it' is exceptionally introvert, highly strung and selfish, as such what do you expect? Sad as it is.

I wish my mate still rode bikes as he was a proper vigilante.. Best story was the bloke who cut him up on a roundabout - my mate screamed lots of swear words before proceeding to cycle up the hill to his house. Bloke had spun round in his car and come after my mate for a "word". As soon as my mate spots him it was bike down, helmet off ready for a brawl. Bloke twigs and spins round (again) with my mate chasing him (now on foot) screaming "what the * did you turn round for you * if you didn't want a * fight you * pansy **** OFF!!!". I reckon there's a fair few drivers kicking round the North East that probably now think twice about cutting up a cyclist!

Classic!

A lot of people feel 'brave' when locked into a car. They don't actually want a fight.

Actually this thread has just reminded me of an incident I had a couple of weeks ago;

My bag clipped a vans wing mirror as I was filtering through traffic. It was a company delivery van (food) driven by a woman. I stopped to sort it out and was chatting to her in the friendly manor at the side of the road filling in forms, laughing and talking together - in no way shape or form was I aggressive or even close to her.

Yet car after car with burly skinhead cockneys (aka black cabs) kept stopping and asking her if she was alright and needed assistance with me.

It is after all, them versus us right!? 🙄

The car is seen as a status symbol

In their eyes you're poor/ inferior/ a peasant because you're on a bike

Classic!

A lot of people feel 'brave' when locked into a car. They don't actually want a fight.

Indeed, I've had people go to get out then think better of it. On the contrary though, I find it massively annoying when women (it has always been women to date) almost kill you by being massively inconsiderate then when you have a word at the next lights say you're being threatening. You're in a tonne and a bit of metal. You can wind your window up. What am I going to do, even if I was swearing and ranting at you, which in both cases I haven't been! I think what they actually meant was "oh dear I thought I was automatically faster than a bike everywhere and there were no repercussions for pointlessly overtaking then cutting them up."

They feel "safe" in their metal box! Best response is to just bunny hop onto their cars bonnet if they are in the "Cycles only" box.....

I don't even think it is anything to do with the car being a status symbol or anyone being a peasant.

Generally people don't like being told they have done something wrong - in this instance you pointed out (I know not how) that he was at fault. In most instances people will take this as an insult no matter how nice you were about it. Classic Passive Aggressive behaviour will come out as a result.

If someone tells you that you are not to far away from the curb when you think you are fine how do you react??

Right and wrong sort of doesn't come into it - it is having something pointed out that brings about the two fingers, insulting response etc.

Of course right is right and wrong is wrong but this doesn't make a difference to the reaction until we have had a time to reflect, which of course we don't when some random comes up to us and criticises something we have done.

I tend to let it go unless someone shouts out of their window at me. Used to get riled by bad driving but it doesn't help anything by getting pissy about it unless you can have a word straight away and keep it calm. Most near misses I see are from drivers giving me loads of room but not realising there's an oncoming car in the way. I do think you develop a second sense of danger after a while, things like folk overtaking at roundabouts is bad driving through misjudging speed.

The level of observation by people driving cars is a major factor.

Walking or running towards the oncoming traffic along a road with no pavement in daylight can be quite an eye-opener.

It is quite disconcerting just how many people only appear to notice/respond to you (ie. swerve) only when [b]very[/b] close to you, even if wearing bright clothing.

I have noticed similar whilst driving behind cars that have encountered people on bikes.

Whilst cycling, the tell-tale is that the overtaking car is still heading towards the centre of the road as they pass into your lone of forward vision. [b]They have got very close behind you and have only just starting veering away from you.
[/b]
Observant drivers will be established on a parallel path to you or even heading back towards the left side of the road when you can see them.

Seen as an inconvenience to them (motorists),

Different,

Easy to pick on with a feeling of total immunity,

A sense of entitlement (motorists),

A sense that we (cyclists) are somehow ducking the system.

We aren't actually seen as being people - once on the bike we just become cyclists & stop being living & breathing legitimate users of the public highway.

Basically there's a sizeable number of folks holding a driver's license who may have the co-ordination to drive, but lack the intelligence to comprehend the consequences of their actions should it go wrong....until it's too late & then it's "SMIDSY....."

Should have bunny-hopped on to the car bonnet and explained you wished to use the ASL. 😉

I've just come back from riding in the Black Forest area of Germany.
All routes had an extensive network of cycle roads (the name cyclepaths would do them injustice), constructed away from the car roads. The cars drive on their roads, the cyclists on theirs. Routes were clearly signposted and had bridges/underpasses/flowing junctions and were of perfect, clean, smooth tarmac.
It was lovely.
I wish I lived there.
There was no anger because there was no conflict of interests and cyclists were obviously not considered second class citizens by the government.

I've just come back from riding in the Black Forest area of Germany....

...It was lovely.
I wish I lived there.

I really like other parts of Germany too.

[quote=amedias ]I used to find this too, telling someone what they've done wrong never goes down well, and I'd occasionally get into arguments too, so now I always open with something along the lines of
"flipping heck, you really scared me back there, I thought I was going to get really hurt!" -- with a little bit of forced panic on my face

amedias wins the thread - I'm going to try and use that advice in future.

Basically, Britain is not a cycling nation, 'it' is exceptionally introvert, highly strung and selfish, as such what do you expect? Sad as it is.

Tend to agree, it is a horrible country with selfishness at the core. The only hope is that young people pull the country out of it in the future who weren't part of the Thatcher era where it all started.

Attitudes to cyclists is representative of attitudes to migrants . It is our road, it is our country etc,.

So many people flash others in/out of junctions and lanes, not because they are considerate or whatever, but because they want to weild some sense of empowerment that so many associate with being sat in a car. It usually has nothing to do with anything other than their own sense of entitlement and wanting to be seen to weild it.

How do you know that? I guess it may be true, but it seems a little unlikely. It's certainly not what goes through my mind if I give way to someone coming out of a side-turning. It seems like a very bleak view of human nature. I think I'll go on believing that people are, in the main, being considerate.