You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Hi chaps,
It used to be a boutique brand, Santa Cruz, once in the while I'd see a Heckler, or a Superlight, some times a Nomad.
Now, it seems like a hell of a lot of people are riding Santa Cruzes.
I could understand it if they were good value for money, or UK built, or their marketing had been pretty full on and targeted.
They're nice enough looking bikes, but are a lot for what they are.
So... what's going on? Has riding become more popular with big earners/spender in the last 12 months?
Ricks
Thank god they are not UK built, it would be £10k for a frame welded from pig iron (going by orange pricing). Still it would ride better than any 5 or 160.
Fashion.
They;re very good bikes. People like them.
Singletrackworld isn't a fair view of the general UK public. There are a lot on here but I still don't see that many around Cannock or any other trails.
i wish they made a 29er heckler.....i would buy one without a test or anything.
ace bikes....far far nicer than the made in yorkshire stuff.
They just look right. I'd have one if I could afford one.
MTB is the new golf, Santa Cruz is the new Callaway.
Santa Cruz are the new Specialized. Good for them in a way, in that they grew with the Mtb scene, with minimal reliance on road for their success, unlike Specialized.
Let's just hope that they don't get as trigger happy with the lawyers as The Big S has...
They're really nicely built, well finished, excellent warranty (lifetime of pivot bearing)
They are expensive, but you get what you pay for-we have less trouble with SC than any other brand.
I'm going to post a full report asap but basically I had a Blur LTc frame that was getting very close to 2 years old when the frame developed an 'issue' it was still ridable but I contacted Santa Cruz USA and Jungle about it and about a month later Jonty at Jungle handed me a brand new Bronson C frame.
That's why I'd buy another SC without a moments hesitation.
Because they are very, very good bikes.
My TBLTC is the best / most fun to ride bike I've owned /ridden.
a boutique brand, Santa Cruz,
They're making some truly stunning bikes at the moment. The orange Solo and blue Nomad are beautiful.
They are just good that's it really. Happily loads come up second hand and they make a cracking used buy too as they are sturdy and long lasting.
Singletrackworld isn't a fair view of the general UK public. There are a lot on here but I still don't see that many around Cannock or any other trails.
Every other bike at Glentress is a Santa Cruz.
Don't get me wrong, they look alright. But I just couldn't spend that amount on something that lots and lots of other people have.
Surely the economies of scale would mean they should now be a good value brand?
MTB is the new golf
This. Just look at the type of car in trail center car parks.
Or the amount of overbiked middle aged men trundling around your average red route.
Or the insane price rises for frames and kit in the past few years,
i built a 2005 bullitt up for a pal recently, proper heavy duty stuff on it. he had a la piere froggy, but it got pinched.
he rode snowden on the bullitt and said it was far better to ride than the 8yr newer froggy.
They are expensive, but you get what you pay for-we have less trouble with SC than any other brand.
If you lived in the US you'd pay an awful lot less for the same thing. Jungle taking the piss with their mark up (they do the same with Niner too) though I guess you charge what the market is willing to pay.
Ah, I see UK Distributer screws the UK market.
Reckon it's because they don't die. My Blur Classic is 11 years old and despite 'triggers broom' syndrome on parts it's more or less original. My Blur LT2 is 6 years old and also going strong. I am saving for a 5010C and it will be worth the wait. Canine gonads!
New colours are out tomorrow:
[URL= http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy58/generallevi/7ED10379-4611-4768-A988-FADE3F5D1585_zps5d48cwj4.jp g" target="_blank">
http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy58/generallevi/7ED10379-4611-4768-A988-FADE3F5D1585_zps5d48cwj4.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
[URL= http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy58/generallevi/BD8E727D-83EA-492A-BF23-EEEEF3AED718_zps0c1chmsm.jp g" target="_blank">
http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy58/generallevi/BD8E727D-83EA-492A-BF23-EEEEF3AED718_zps0c1chmsm.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
[URL= http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy58/generallevi/4DFEF228-3073-45E2-AF0A-C596E61A66DD_zpsywok76fs.jp g" target="_blank">
http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy58/generallevi/4DFEF228-3073-45E2-AF0A-C596E61A66DD_zpsywok76fs.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
[URL= http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy58/generallevi/8FC7144D-E65F-464E-8EF1-95D34FEAB39D_zps1dsgfqku.jp g" target="_blank">
http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy58/generallevi/8FC7144D-E65F-464E-8EF1-95D34FEAB39D_zps1dsgfqku.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
All the best,
Lee.
And the Orange comment. Orange 5, 650B, XT build, Pike fork, £3200.
Santa Cruz Heckler, 650b, XT build, Pike fork, £4200.
Both have a hinge, so pretty good comparison. UK still better VfM. Plus money into UK jobs, not US jobs.
Every other bike at Glentress is a Santa Cruz.
Bollocks.
They're making some truly stunning bikes at the moment. The orange Solo and blue Nomad are beautiful.
Sums it up,really- that the Solo and Nomad are stunning. In the right colorway.....
Does surprise me though the way people are accepting of being screwed over on the pricing.
MTB is the new golf
I don't think it is. MTB has never been cheap to do, my 98 heckler with pace forks and stuff was really bloody expensive back then. Plenty of bikes hit 3-4k not just SC. Build a good SC up and you'll get 10 years out of it so £400 a year starts looking OK - I'd spend double that for a week on the slopes and I ride my bike loads more. The whole fat bloke at trail centres pisses me off - Im a fat bloke and I've ridden MTB since 1989 should I stay at home because you think there's some exclusive club you're in -Noob? Jealousy is an ugly thing do you think we'd even have trail centres if it wasn't for the new people coming in with their so called middle management money?
Why do people think we are being 'screwed' on the pricing? Do you have some secret insider knowledge about the massive margins everyone is enjoying?
Why do people think we are being 'screwed' on the pricing? Do you have some secret insider knowledge about the massive margins everyone is enjoying?
I'd be interested to know the truth on this. Niner frames in US seem reasonable prices - but over here they are stupid. Best part of £1000 for non-custom 853 hardtail?
Eh? Its never been boutique.
Bullit
Chameleon
Superlight
Blur
Heckler
All were v.populous YEARS AGO
Oranges are overpriced.
Two brands that Jungle distribute, at least (niner and s-c) seem to have particularly large price differentials between their US and UKmretail,prices.
We live on an island
SC get frames made in the FE and shipped to the US. It's not expensive to do that for large quantities
One or two containers of stuff then shipped to the UK and import duty and tax added (especially if it's come from US after FE) adds a lot to the end price. Distributer, retailer etc all add their cut too. Small quantities and a 'niche' brand especially coming via US doesn't come cheap.
It's because they are good.
I love my LTc Blur, it is honestly the best frame I've ever had and I'm happy to ride stuff I didn't on my previous frames, it's that good.
Previous ones were 456ti, s-works Enduro (2006), Enduro (2010), Orange five.
I'd buy another without hesitation.
Or the insane price rises for frames and kit in the past few years,
Look at a Fat Chance Ti or a Shock a Billy, Klein Attitude or Adroit etc in the UK in 1995/6, price rises are a myth.
Too short, too steep, too heavy and too expensive=Santacruz.
Had a Blur Classic for years but now have a 160mm travel german (alu) mince tank that weighs less, is 5deg slacker, is just as nimble and has a 10 year warrenty.
Slag off Orange all you like but compare the angles on the 5-29er with the Tallboy LT. I will never go near a short and steep bike again; I need all the skill compensation I can get!
For comparisons sake, another American premium brand (not boutique) Yeti, have a similar difference in UK Vs US pricing.
I'm pretty sure the Jungle boys arn't driving around in Ferrari's counting the wads of £50 notes piling up everywhere.
As tmb467 said. Not even taking in to account their business overheads, warranty stock commitments, spare parts commitments, marketing, demo fleet, demo events etc.
Stuff like the Niner's being expensive - I would have thought that's fairly obvious why, they sell next to bugger all. Of course they will be expensive.
No-one forces people to buy any of these brands - other cheaper products are available...
I've got a TRc, test rode loads of other bikes but as soon as I'd rode up and down the first hill I knew I needed one in the garage. Love it, unfortunately I keep breaking the forks attached to the front! I also think they look lovely.
I actually went to the headquarters last month whilst on our honeymoon and test rode a solo, the place is just as nice as the name sake bikes and the guys in showroom where ace as well.
For comparisons sake, another American premium brand (not boutique) Yeti, have a similar difference in UK Vs US pricing.
As do Ibis, Intense, Crackandfail, Specialized (s-works stuff), Pivot etc.
Because not many people know about the best bike company from Santa Cruz...
Dunno.
My old mk2 Chameleon refuses to die and still seems to be my favourite - which has led me to wonder if I actually need the FS and the nice, British HT on a few occasions. It's a beast with 36RC2s and is basically unkillable - and is pretty much my default trail bike. The only real weak points are the strengths - that super solid rear triangle does not really lend itself to long spinny days in the saddle, but it's not that sort of bike...
Re the full build prices: the actual frames aren't too bad as American imported frames go, basically swap the $ for a £ and chalk most of the difference to freight and landing costs plus the markup you'd expect any business to want. Where it seems to go silly is the build kit - which all seems to be RRP. I bet if you specced one with an LBS excluding any mates, trade or frequent flyer discounts you'd end up in a similar place. No idea about the Orange thing - I know people who love their Oranges but I've never quite got it since I gave up my Clockwork.
my single pivot SC was cheaper than the equivalent Orange single pivot frame
my single pivot SC was cheaper than the equivalent Orange single pivot frame
The money you paid for your single pivot SC frame went to pay very cheap wages in eastern Asia, not very expensive labour in Halifax.
...... Orange may be expensive, but you can at least see where the money goes.
SC seem like good bikes, and the ones I've ridden are very nice, but they do seem to be very highly priced for a (increasingly) large company... Mind you spesh should be cheap by that logic.
Seems to me that German brands on the whole are the only ones pricing reasonably...
Because not many people know about the best bike company from Santa Cruz...
Which is? Not the one that sells a 140mm travel bike thats actually 130mm??
Are skateboards more relevant than road bikes? : ) Specialized started out in MTB way back, aside from road P+A in the very early days.they grew with the Mtb scene, with minimal reliance on road for their success, unlike Specialized.
They aren't made in a cheap factory though.The money you paid for your single pivot SC frame went to pay very cheap wages in eastern Asia
I always liked Santa Cruz for making the Chameleon, that bike and the Z1 did change my riding in the late 90s. No rational reason for it now but I'd feel good about owning another SC if I was in the market for a susser.
The money you paid for your single pivot SC frame went to pay very cheap wages in eastern Asia, not very expensive labour in Halifax.
...... Orange may be expensive, but you can at least see where the money goes.
Bigger fool orange IMHO.
By that logic Hope should make all their kit in the Far East and sell it loads cheaper.
Id prefer my money goes into the UK market as muh as possible. Its increasingly difficult to do so though.
Bigger fool orange IMHO.
I get the feeling that Orange don't make their bikes in the UK to keep the costs down......
It's always a good thing when a firm decides to produce their wares in the UK rather than abroad. Look at Cotic switching production of the Rocket from Asia to the UK in spite of higher costs..... people must be willing to pay the extra. I know I would.
In actual fact I'm not sure why I even quoted about Orange, you cannot compare a Orange with anything made by SC. Its like comparing a DT240s or a Chris King hub to a hope one.
I get the feeling that Orange don't make their bikes in the UK to keep the costs down......
They produce half of the bikes outside of the UK anyway......
Where are the "Far Eastern" Santa Cruzes made?
Slag off Orange all you like but compare the angles on the 5-29er with the Tallboy LT. I will never go near a short and steep bike again; I need all the skill compensation I can get!
Honestly quoting static angles on a full sus is a waste of time, they all sit and ride differently, a mate (serial bike swapper) took a solo out and was worried about the head angle until he rode it then realised it just worked.
Anyway if you think they are popular in the UK head to NZ, was over in Rotorua where Blur LT's and Nomad Mk2's ruled the trails (all carbon) this year it's the Bronson and Solo round every bend and the local shop had 3 staff 650 Nomads, 7 being built and a 10 bike waiting list. I reckon at least 80% of those out on them were very serious riders and seriously quick. So they seem to be a default choice for those who can ride 😉
Loving the VPP setup, the common sense of retaining the threaded BB at least until PF works properly, grease ports on the bearings, lifetime bearing warranty, 5 year frame warranty, good customer service and a really nice looking bike.
As nice as the guys are at orange their a 1 trick pony in the FS department, not keen on single pivot (and paying a lot for it) then it's not for you.
My LTc proudly states Made in Chinasuburbanreuben - Member
Where are the "Far Eastern" Santa Cruzes made?
Why are there so many Santa Cruz bikes about at the moment?
I know, right? Can't bloody move for them in my house!*
I reckon it's a combo of marketing (thru the sc syndicate, peaty doing that Scottish vid for the Solo etc), that those of us who have played on muddy bikes for the last 15+ years still see them as boutique exotica when in fact now they are probably as big and far reaching as traditionally more mass market brand. The price helps I think, folk thinking that you get what you pay for, so a £4k+ base model or £3k frame on some model must be special... It could also be that they are really bloody good bikes that, while expensive, will last or are backed up by a bullet proof warranty.
*you didn't think I was joking, did you? 😉
[url= https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3877/14460462262_526b5d5db7_o.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/92694523@N06/14460462262/ ]image[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people/92694523@N06/ ]tom.howard.562[/url], on Flickr
[img] 
[/img]
Me too tom
[url= https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3666/12215576876_c3fbb3c32d_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3666/12215576876_c3fbb3c32d_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/jBs2qq ]2014-01-29 15.12.10[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people// ]Mike Smith 79[/url], on Flickr
I really really regret selling my old Bullit. Shouldve kept it. The geometry etc was outdated etc but it was such a fun bike to ride. Might buy another one when I can afford a full sus again. I like Santa Cruz bikes.
Obviously their bikes need to be decent, but a lot of people will be willing to pay extra for a bike/frame if they know the support/warranty is really good should they be unfortunate to need it. Now that they've updated their geometry more people are interested in their bikes.
The new nomad looks like a lot of fun.
If you ask people what's the best bike they've ever owned, I reckon Santa Cruz will be mentioned a lot. For every blinged out carbon nomad getting ridden round Llandegla car park by some Audi driving stroker, there's a battered Chameleon or 8 year old heckler still going strong.
Santa Cruz build brilliant bikes! That's why people buy'em
Expensive UK labour? How much do Fabricators earn?
SC etc- How much is import duties/tax, freight AND Distributor margin like Jungles? Kinda offsets Orange..
Made in China carbon. Nice frames and tight qc control but why the price..
Read in a bike mag-posh German carbon wheel company built a carbon road bike. Frame retails at 4k....designed an engineered in German..made in China. Made me laugh. It may be 'better' than some ali express £300 frames but how much so?
http://www.dutycalculator.com/
Easy to work out on retail comparison for example Bronson
$2900 USD (No sales tax etc.)
UK Price 1703 GBP (converted)
Duty 80.24
VAT 357.51
Landed Cost 2145.07 without shipping, packaging etc. Sana Cruz direct deal in the US so no need for a distributor margin (same as Orange & Hope in the UK) Equivalent Frame in the UK selling for 2600.
So the difference is 455 leaving shipping, demo fleet, advertising, support and profit.
buying decisions are always about more than just price. It's about value, especially with items that you keep for years. People obviously think the product is a good one.
There may be a percentage of buyers/golfers who are just taken in by the marketing aspect but the market is pretty robust I suspect, so if the product isn't good then it will be found out eventually.
I considered a Nomad but didn't like the curvy top tube... the latest versions are much better in this respect though compared to the early ones.
Not sure on that simple 'retail duty' bit
Import duty is 15% and there are additional anti-dumping duties on carbon bike frames manufactured in china
i was riding in Santa Cruz the other day, and everyone was on a santa cruz.
the riding out there is fully sick, by the way.
[quote> http://www.dutycalculator.com/
Easy to work out on retail comparison for example Bronson
$2900 USD (No sales tax etc.)
UK Price 1703 GBP (converted)
Duty 80.24
VAT 357.51
Landed Cost 2145.07 without shipping, packaging etc. Sana Cruz direct deal in the US so no need for a distributor margin (same as Orange & Hope in the UK) Equivalent Frame in the UK selling for 2600.
So the difference is 455 leaving shipping, demo fleet, advertising, support and profit.
Don't forget Jungle don't buy at retail. As a distributor they'll probably get it for 60% of retail, sell onto the shops who'll then add on their 15%. Distributor (volume) gets big slice. Shop = small slice.
Small import/distributor like Chumba wouldn't be able to negotiate much due to low volume sales at this end?
i was riding in Santa Cruz the other day, and everyone was on a santa cruz.the riding out there is fully sick, by the way
This deserves a whole new post.
I both hate and love you. Man I'm jealous 🙂
bigrich - Member
i was riding in Santa Cruz the other day, and everyone was on a santa cruz.
the riding out there is fully sick, by the way.
Awesome isn't it! Also spotted loads of Specialized on the trails as well.
I miss my old Heckler and would have a new one in a heartbeat. I just think that they have positioned their company really well the last couple of years. As MTB has become a golf-like sport for middle-aged men, Santa Cruz is a company that isn't one of the big brands, but also doesn't take much effort to find if you're not inclined to spend hours parsing the internet-ramblings of other MTBers. They've done a good job of subtly marketing their bikes to the point that everyone was talking about the Bronson like it was [i]the[/i] enduro weapon, when enduro really blew up, despite there being hundreds of similar bikes (one of which is actually called Enduro). They're the BMWs of the bike world, which doesn't mean they're bad at all, just priced for a certain kind of buyer.
[quote=mikewsmith > http://www.dutycalculator.com/
Easy to work out on retail comparison for example Bronson
$2900 USD (No sales tax etc.)
But surely any buyer in the US would pay some sort of sales tax?
It is hora but as we don't know and wouldn't really shout about trade prices in a public forum assume your right but I still consider it a good price. I know what the Oz price list looks like and nothing looks like a complete rip off. If they had the scale or spec or giant then the margins would be tighter.
Sales tax in all states is different and paid at the end so never quoted in the US. Some states have none.
I used to have a 5
Now my only MTB is a Soul
If I came intro some cash I'd be buying a 5010, no doubt 🙂
Don't forget Jungle don't buy at retail. As a distributor they'll probably get it for 60% of retail, sell onto the shops who'll then add on their 15%. Distributor (volume) gets big slice. Shop = small slice.
I can assure you, using your example the retailer margin it's much higher than 15% and Jungle's is significantly lower than you suggest.
Also not sure how it works in the UK but here in Oz most "Off the Peg" builds come with not much left to do apart from attach bars and wheels, tighten and set-up. With the variety of build kits and the options (we can swap out anything and everything that is on a build list over here) it comes as a frame and a box is bits that you actually have to build from scratch.
I can assure you, using your example the retailer margin it's much higher than 15% and Jungle's is significantly lower than you suggest.
Unless you are both like Jungle/stiff then you are quids in!
Mikewsmith, a quick fag packet calc shows that, excluding sales taxes, and converted to uk pounds the bronson c Kashima costs, at retail, 1825 in oz, 1700 in the US and tahdaah, 2340 in the Uk.
The frame is also from a quick look, available discounted in both the US and Australia.
I don't really use trail centres too much, but I remember when you couldn't move in the lakes for Marin full sussers, and then again a few years later for Specialized. My guess is that SC are the brand at the mo.
Tbh i'm glad of it, i'll be happy to hoover up the £600 second hand frames in a few years time. I can snap them 3 times over and still be better off.
£2000+ for a new frame? They must be mad.
They're ridiculously expensive, therefore they must be the best and you'll look so cool with your carbon bike on top of your carbon enve wheels. £8000? Yes, but it's the best. Now look at me. I'm the best (well I think I am)...
Tbh i'm glad of it, i'll be happy to hoover up the £600 second hand frames in a few years time. I can snap them 3 times over and still be better off.
Me too. I always buy slightly older Santa Cruz's (currently on a 2011 Butcher).
HoraMe too. I always buy slightly older Santa Cruz's (currently on a 2011 Butcher).
I'm on a £500 intense tracer... it snapped, £20 at the alloy fabs and it's back on the trails 😀
Watch it fold in half round hebden tomorrow 🙄
Watch it fold in half round hebden tomorrow
Then you can buy a 29'er and see the trails come alive. Win win! 😀
My almost 10 year old Blur LT is still going strong. The only bike out there I'd want to replace it with is a carbon Bronson
Amongst the guys that I ride with they are called "Mondeos" since they are so common.