[Closed] Why are panniers not popular for bikepackers?

Personally, I reckon success at something like the TDR (and I mean even just completing it) has a lot less to do with kit and a lot more to do with the pilot, both physically and psychologically.

EDITED

Non sarcastic reply - I'm sat here thinking about kit because I CAN sit here thinking about kit. I would rather be out in the mountains trying stuff out and having a good time, rest assured.

It may be that with a bit of faffing and imagination you can come up with a solution that no one else has ever produced or required.

Yeah, people do invent new stuff from time to time, that improves on old stuff. I thought innovation was to be encouraged...

Hmm.. BB200, that looks good. Can you get dynamo disc hubs? Lots of darkness at that time of year 🙂 Is the route public domain? Anyone got a tracklog?

[quote=molgrips ] I would rather be out in the mountains trying stuff out and having a good time, rest assured.

In my weaker moments I also think about things like the TDR but I just doubt I'd have the time/stamina/dedication to put in the hours required before then for both training and kit-tweaking. If you have a way of solving that problem for yourself then I'd say you need to implement it pretty soon to get yourself into condition.

Innovation is usually borne from experience....

Dynamo hubs? SP Dynamo PD-8.Also sold by Exposure as part of the Revo lighting set.

Innovation is usually borne from experience

Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not 🙂

I have to say, all this talk of gear and especially tents is getting me all worked up.. I love tents..

trail_rat - Member

carradice were the inventors of bike packing anyways (without inventing fancy new names for carrying stuff on bikes)

Look for tents where you pitch the inner and fly at the same time, as they can put up and taken down in a couple of minutes

What's your recommendation then?

I have a Terra Nova Photon Elite...it may be called something else now though. It's just a lighter version of the Laser anyway. You only need to insert/remove the pole...the rest of it can be rolled/unrolled in one. I've heard one of the new Vaude models is also good. There are a lot of small companies making lightweight tents in the US too, most need a walking pole to support them though.

Ok i don't fully understand the nature of the event to be undertaken.

From a pure racing point of view, no pain no gain, ride till you can't ride no more, roll off the bike, unroll a bivi bag with a sleeping bag already in it, crawl in job done.

Tent is more comfort but more weight (depending where you are) and can take time to pitch up (practice makes perfect and speeds things up)
Another Terra Nova user. Laser large, 10 years old, single pole, with 2 stub end poles.
Pitches as one, fly and outer are clipped together, takes maybe 5 mins to pitch up, hardest part is threading the single pole through.
Tailor pegs to suit ground/area you are going to.
Last trip out, ground was like sponge, the carbon fiber pegs weren't ideal so i made some fatter longer wooden pegs for the 4 corner guys.
Now have a selection of the Alpkit Y beam pegs in standard and long length for future use.

As per d45yth, carefull roll up of the tent, i leave the stub poles in place, then it's a case of unroll, pitch out base, pole in, guys, and other pegs. Practice speeds things up.
There are lots of tents to choose from nowdays, i can't reccomend one as i have been on the same TN for so long.

I did pick up the lidl/aldi special to play about with as it looked possible to ditch one or both poles and use the bike or trees etc etc as a high point to tie off too.
Rocktrail brand,£13 more of a take to glastonbury and leave in the field thing than use beyond light summer use. Came up ages ago as a PSA in the monster bikepacking adventure bivi thread.

Still to try my cheapo special in the garden, but because it was cheap i can think outside of normal and not worry if i wreck it.

Good luck with the adventure to come 🙂

scurries off to look up event on google.

I tried bikepacking with panniers.

After i rode down castle crag the rack snapped on one side and the panniers fell off. I had to repair with cable ties duct tape and a stick I dont take them anymore.
I dont think they are intended for rough off road use.

The other problem is the rack has to be positioned quite far back to stop heel rub on the bags. OK on a tourer with long chain stays but on mountain bikes it puts a lot of weight behind the back wheel. Every time you get off it trys to wheelie!

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Oh and tents... Second hand terra nova here. As D45 said under 1kg and keeps the midges off your face!

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After i rode down castle crag the rack snapped on one side and the panniers fell off.

If that's your setup though, it looks absoutely huge and rather heavy.

I've used a Laser, I didn't find it much more convenient than any other kind of tent. I'd still go for that MSR (having owned other MSR tents) if I were going for one. I think a bivi might be the way forward though, as long as I can stay dry in it. The only way to find out is to try it.

It would be worth borrowing a bivvy and/or tarp before you commit to a purchase. I tried it (quite) a few years ago and hated it 🙂 For the cost of postage and a promise of a quick, safe return you could have a loan of mine.

Panniers arnt popular because they dont work offroad. It concentrates all of the weight over the rear of the bike and screws up the handleing. Racks are heavy and will snap once you start using them offroad. Panniers are heavy as well.

Framebags, Harnesses, Seat packs spread the weigh of your kit across the bike and it still handles like a bike rather than a barge.

[i]If[/i] you are thinking about the TDR, you really have to ask yourself are you going to race or tour?

If you're going to race its being able to ride 100+ miles a day back to back for a month. Every kg of kit you take is going to slow you down so its all about being minimal and MTFU. Look at JamesO's/Aidens pics and there kit was hardly anything more than a bike.

300g Bivi = race
1kg tent = tour

It would be worth borrowing a bivvy and/or tarp before you commit to a purchase. I tried it (quite) a few years ago and hated it

I think if you want to bivvy you have to commit. I dont think there is any argument that a tent is better if you want to be dry, midge free and have a space to do things. Bivvy is a means to sleep, or if you want it can be about 'being outside and not closed off'. Its possibly quicker and ligher but not better/worse, just different. Decide what you want out of it and choose the appropriate kit.

Ive not bivvied a lot and the few times i have the nights would have been 'better' with a tent but there was no space and switching to panniers would have spoiled the ride massively.

Yep, Chew, that's what I concluded up there ^^^

Scotroutes, thanks - I assume you're in Scotland? Little chance of a meet-up if that's the case 🙂

PS I don't think panniers mess up the handling that much to be honest. Maybe I'm just used to it since I do it so much.

To the original point, I've seen a number of broken panniers on routes that I wouldn't describe as technical, just rough and long. I wouldn't fancy my chances on something like the TDR with panniers and all that washboard road surface shaking things apart. Panniers seem more suited to smooth surfaces or low-speed use on rougher roads. Frame bags etc are more durable when you're getting rattled regularly and lighter (or better luggage vs content ratio).

Framebags, Harnesses, Seat packs spread the weigh of your kit across the bike and it still handles like a bike

We fly out next week to tour about half of the route, from Canada to Colorado, probably looking to do 100km a day over 4 weeks but taking our time.

My minimal set up on the right + wingnut out of shot (not much in it though)
[url= http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3775/8893533106_2bfdc506f5_z.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3775/8893533106_2bfdc506f5_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

Have a go with panniers and see how you get on, but a box of Jaffa cakes says the rack will snap 😉
If you're considering on racing we'll see you for the BB200 in October

[quote=molgrips ]
Scotroutes, thanks - I assume you're in Scotland? Little chance of a meet-up if that's the case
Aye - which is why it would have to be by post.

Hi molegrips my setup was rather huge and heavy. I took what I had. A miss match of bike stuff camping kit a big synthetic bag and went for mini adventure :-).
Really enjoyed being out and decided to do it again so started refining my kit. Still a hotchpotch of home made and bargain buys, but it gets me out there.
Recently ordered a seat bag from Russia so that should improve things. Also have a light weight down sleeping bag. kit is little more condensed now, but by no means pure minimalist.

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From Russia with love....... I hope......

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We have those dining room chairs.

See, those enormous saddle bags look terrible to me. That's the last place you want large objects for good bike handling, I reckon.

Do you still think a rack would break if it were only carrying 6kg?

Thing is a seat bag is...... well connected to the seat.

For good handling you dont want large objects there??

Well theres 80KG of man on top of the 6 kg bag.

On the other hand the 6 kg on the side of the frame may feel different.I guess you try and decide what suits you.

But if you want to carry 10 L of water thats 10kg on top of your 6 Kg

nighty night.

For good handling you dont want large objects there??

Well, not when trundling along, but when manoevring the bike you move it from side to side, so the saddle's the bit that moves the most. That's why saddle and seatpost is a good place to save weight.

When you want to turn a corner quickly, in your moving frame of reference the bike is pivoting around the rear wheel contact patch. So low down over the rear wheel is a good place for weight, and why I don't think panniers affect the handling even when heavily loaded - at least, when commuting.

But if you want to carry 10 L of water thats 10kg on top of your 6 Kg

Yep, that's gonna be heavy wherever I put it. But I wouldn't carry 10l of water everywhere.

Wonder what all these round the world tourers use to carry their panniers on horrible roads? They don't seem to breaking racks all the time...

Apparently, they are available in sturdy steel as well as aluminium... hmm.. more research.

My sturdy aluminium rack is 30 years old. Whilst it hasn't been ridden around the world it's got a shed load miles on it than a round the world ride.

Molgrips.

Also for the price of postage and a box of jaffa cakes, I'll lend you a set of Revelate designs bikepacking gear for you to have a shot.
mail me Andy at backcountrybiking dot co dot uk

Andy

Alright, ta.. maybe I'll do a contrast and compare with different set-ups.. provided I get the chance to get out for a few trips, that is.. then again I'll need to if I want to do well at the bb200.

Having said that I can only use my Alivio equippent hybrid for this project at the moment, my 29er mtb is still being saved up for!

I'm wondering.. maybe I can design a 20l or so bag that attaches to a rack top and seatpost (avoiding clearance issues)

Look at the Carradice Saddlebags and the SQR rack mount which attaches to the seatpost. Anything from 7l to 23l capacity, awesome bits of kit, tough as anything and will last a lifetime.

I used a Carradice Nelson on my first bivvy a few weeks ago - bivvy bag, mat, stove, tarp and cooking pans went in the Saddlebag and a sleeping bag in a drybag on the handlebars

Those seatpost mounted racks make me very nervous. I'm sure it's not warranted.. but it's my fat arse AND my gear all hanging off my seatpost.. you'd need a tough one.

Well unless your seatpost is limited for weight it shouldnt be a problem, plenty of heavy chaps ride bikes and dont die. In STW fashion you'll be using a thomson no doubt anyway 😆

My issue with carradice, most of them are wide so you want slide off the back of the saddle. With bikepacking bags you can still slide off the back if required (assuming you havnt strapped it on pointing at the sky).

Molgrips, here is a pic of my (since sold) fargo with front and rear racks with drybags, as you can see they lift the weight as high as one of the bikepack style setups.

[url= http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5222/5644388850_7d1e92cbc3.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5222/5644388850_7d1e92cbc3.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/dickyelsdon/5644388850/ ]Salsa Fargo[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/dickyelsdon/ ]dickyelsdon[/url], on Flickr

I also tried just a rucksack on the back, that was worse in terms of bike handling but it does allow you to wear the pack and carry a lighter bike. Only really a benefit on rides where you will carry the bike a lot.

Finally, my Spearfish in bikepacking (with slightly too much gear) mode. Still not fully streamlined kit wise, as dont go out enough, but it rides just like a bike and i can still carry it when required.

[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7213/7159082559_31c6e05b32.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7213/7159082559_31c6e05b32.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/dickyelsdon/7159082559/ ]Looking down on Gladhouse Reservoir[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/dickyelsdon/ ]dickyelsdon[/url], on Flickr

I should also say, with the backpack on the rear rack you struggle to get off the back of the saddle as its so big, putting seat down is impossible too. With the spearfish, i can slide backwards but not behind saddle and cant put seat down due to tire/bag interface and suspension. With panniers you could get off the back of the saddle or put saddle down, having tried that tho its more terrifying as panniers hit your legs and they give way! (you know, like when someone taps the back of your knee and your leg buckles).

Well unless your seatpost is limited for weight it shouldnt be a problem, plenty of heavy chaps ride bikes and dont die. In STW fashion you'll be using a thomson no doubt anyway

Hah no.. lightweight carbon for me 🙂 at least, on my current bikes. I'm going to need a whole new bike for the TDR.

I think that 10kg dangling off the back of the seatpost puts more strain than an extra 10kg of rider, due to leverage, and when it's rough there's generally 0kg of rider on the seatpost.

If I were to use a rack-top dry bag then it'd be the only bag, save maybe for a bar bag for sundries like tools, camera, and food. I like the idea of having only one bag for convenience. I could maybe go for only a frame bag too, that might not be so bad. You're right about the height though.. makes me think about panniers again. I wonder if I could get some super small panniers? Or maybe I could knock up something compact..?

Molgrips.

I don't want to sound rude, but you've got people here (who've done the Tour Divide) giving you (who hasn't done the Tour Divide) advice.

Which you're ignoring.

I know cycle racing can be a bit conservative (look at the UCI rules) but this kind of racing isn't covered by the UCI, so people use the most appropriate kit. Which isn't panniers.

Panniers are fine if you're touring, not ideal if you're racing.

You seem to think you're a special little snowflake, and are different to everyone else (even when they're offering you experienced advice). Diet, exercise, and now panniers.

(actually that last bit does sound a bit rude, sorry.)

🙂 AKA 'The Molgrips Effect'.....

I don't want to sound rude, but you've got people here (who've done the Tour Divide) giving you (who hasn't done the Tour Divide) advice.

Which you're ignoring.

Sigh. I don't think you really understand the situation. This thread is asking for people's experiences. I'm not asking people what I should do - I'll make my own damn mind up thanks very much.

Are you suggesting I should just copy everyone else? If so, you can jog on, cos that's not how I do things. You can call me a snowflake if you like, I don't really give a crap. The people who've done the tour, they're just blokes on bikes. They did their research and made their own decisions, I'll make mine just the same. Maybe I'll come to the same conclusions, maybe not. What does it really matter? Am I going to fail and die simply because I've got panniers on? Of course not.

Nothing would ever be improved if we all did the same as each other.

The people who've done the tour, they're just blokes on bikes.

EDIT: I see you also mentioned you'd like to use just one bag for convenience. That's great when what you want is in the bottom of the bag. 🙄 Having you kit spread out is much better, then you can lay your hands on what you need with minimal faff.

Maybe, it would seem they know a lot more than you though.

Yep, that's why I asked for experiences (and got some good ones too - thanks for those). You'll note the title of the thread is not 'what's the best way to carry stuff?' or 'what should I do?'

Re the weight - serious question - has anyone weighed their frame bag, saddle bag etc all together?

Regarding bag weights, it's possible to get the lot below 1kg. Of course it depends on the materials used though. My bar and seat bag (L and M respectively, made by Bikepack.pl) weigh a little over 500g and can carry 15L. I'm sure they could be made lighter, as the material seems durable stuff (even though they're the lightest they make). I've seen some Divide riders use custom Cuben fibre stuff (made by Nuclear Sunrise, Porcelain Rocket, and the like).

Re the weight - serious question - has anyone weighed their frame bag, saddle bag etc all together?

There's a 'weigh in' each year at the WRT ... it's the combined weight of bike and all luggage inc' food / water and rucksacks.

Those who come in at the lighter end of the scale are usually riding what I'd describe as 'racing set-ups' and 30 - 35lb isn't too unusual. Even though they're only out for 2 nights, most are carrying enough gear to see them through weeks of riding if required (excluding food). People do ride the WRT with racks/panniers but I can't recall any that weighed less than 55 - 60lb and many are much more.

While I agree that you need to make your own decisions and choices about kit ... just make sure you don't fall into the trap of 'trying to be different'. There's some very good, sound advice on this thread and there's some other stuff too. 😉

Nothing would ever be improved if we all did the same as each other.

I agree, and working out what's best for you is really important.

Thing is though you start this thread saying bikepackers "seem to like to strap bits and pieces all over the bikes instead. This seems less convenient to me", and then, that you were asking with the TD in mind.

So people shared their experiences, and you've said "nah, I'm right".
I'm tempted to dig out some of your quotes moaning about TJ arguing in a pot/kettle style.

But ultimately, you're right. It doesn't really matter, it's not hurting anyone.

Good luck in the TD, might see you at the BB200

Wildcat front 140g +drybag 120g 8L
Wildcat rear 200g +drybag 120g 8L
Revelate frame bag 300g-ish 5L (full sus frame so small volume)
Osprey backpack 1000g 14L

So total 'cargo' weight = 1900g-ish
Total volume = 40L

Equivalent, Ortlieb classic panniers (as i have those).
Weight = 1900 the pair
Volume = 40L the pair
OMM rear rack (supposedly the best?) = 1000g (just seen they do one at 550g!)

So about the same bags wise (excluding rack), tho you could go for lighter panniers, maybe the back roller plus at 1600g? or smaller (since you you wouldn't use all the volume of the bikepack bags/rucksack) so front roller puls at 1400g.

With bike packing gear tho you could ditch the back-pack and stash bottles in frame bags if your a light packer (im not) so the weight advantage skews even further to bags over panniers.

A good piece on bike bags here if you have time to read it...

[url= http://www.alpkit.com/spotlight/packing-your-frame-bag ]Alpkit[/url]

So people shared their experiences, and you've said "nah, I'm right".

Again I think you mis-understand. I said it SEEMS less convenient to me, and it still does. However I'm perfectly happy to try different options, as I've said a couple of times on the thread.

Barring a few caveats, I think it's a matter of preference. Those caveats, as I see it, are:

1) Racks may break. As I said, I need to do more research. I can't believe no-one's made a rack that won't carry 10-15kg of stuff without breaking, that just seems mad.

2) Panniers may catch on stuff and be awkward when negotiating techie stuff. Fair enough, but I don't think that would be a problem on the TDR. I have yet to scrutinise the route though - can anyone confirm or deny that?

3) Panniers may weigh a bit more, but I reckon there's not much in it with some light bags. I can sacrifice a bit of weight I think, but not a lot.

3) Panniers may cause more air resistance, that could be a drag if you're ploughing into a headwind for a few days. The dry bag on the top of the rack would fix that though.

I don't think that panniers mess up the handling much. I've ridden plenty (lately mostly through London and other cities) with lots of weight in them, and they seem a particularly GOOD way to carry a load, to me. There would also be extra space if I do need to carry say lots of water or food.

People who use panniers may well tend to over-pack, but it doesn't mean you HAVE to over-pack if you take them!

might see you at the BB200

Hope so - I'll be the one on an XC race bike and wearing a rucksack 🙂

tho you could go for lighter panniers

Yeah I use Ortlieb bags for commuting, there's no way I'd use them for the tour. I've got more research to do there, but if they are all that heavy then I probably won't use them.

I recently got a Blackburn MTN-2 rack for commuting, it's not particularly beefy but because it's smaller and fits close to my frame it doesn't wobble about and should be strong. It's quite light though, must be less than a kg.

[img] [/img]

EDIT: Tubus Cargo Classic cromo steel rack, 40kg rating, 533g.

I said it SEEMS less convenient to me, and it still does

What exactly do you mean by convenient tho? Access to gear is not a problem with bikepacking bags as like most people have said, you end up packing in a way that puts common stuff at the access points, with other stuff only needed at night. Removal from bike is only required if your in a B&B or something, tho this is why i like the wildcat stuff for front/rear bags. I certainly see your points about how the dis-advantages are not huge (and things like carrying more water in desert areas), but i dont think panniers offer any advantage for the sort of race like the TD. Certainly if i was building a bike for that race i wouldn't set off thinking about pannier.

I should point out in interest of fairness for comparison of my suggestions vs other people, im a typical STWer, more talk than experience 😆

I must have missed the thread where Molly said he'd do the TDR.

Where do I place my bet?

My panniers weigh 800g and the rack 500g. 38l capacity. I don't use a rucksack/camelback when touring. If I could easily get to 35l and 1kg with the seat/handlebar bags I probably would give it a go. There's no doubt the bike would be easier to ride on singletrack and have a better for/aft balance.

<edit> @nickc I wouldn't put more than 10p on it. Don't forget he's hallucinating in Huddersfield.... 🙂

I recently got a Blackburn MTN-2 rack for commuting, it's not particularly beefy but because it's smaller and fits close to my frame it doesn't wobble about and should be strong. It's quite light though, must be less than a kg.

Thats what i had on my fargo above, tbh, pretty poor. 1 ride with a bag on top and the deck bent, sagging at the back.

I've ridden plenty (lately mostly through London and other cities) with lots of weight in them, and they seem a particularly GOOD way to carry a load, to me. There would also be extra space if I do need to carry say lots of water or food.

What exactly do you mean by convenient tho?

Open pannier(s), put stuff in - it seems as if it'd be easier than unstrapping things. And the B&B thing is a good point - there will be motels and restaurants on the way, and panniers just lift off and come with you. That way you can lock your bike and not have to eat with an eye out of the window, which I hate having to do.

I must have missed the thread where Molly said he'd do the TDR.

I've been dreaming of doing it for ages - I will now as soon as I can afford it. It's going to be costly though, because in the interests of fairness I've got to pay for the rest of my family to have a holiday whilst I ride my bike!

You may all bet against me doing it in the next 3 years, you can donate your winnings to charity 🙂

[i]I've been dreaming of doing it for ages[/i]

I have exactly those same dreams about ringing Keria, and asking her out on a date....

Why, has she done the TDR?

Open pannier(s), put stuff in - it seems as if it'd be easier than unstrapping things. And the B&B thing is a good point - there will be motels and restaurants on the way, and panniers just lift off and come with you. That way you can lock your bike and not have to eat with an eye out of the window, which I hate having to do.

If you do use panniers, be sure as to why. Test some set ups in training and I mean test them hard - the washboard roads on the TDR can be utterly brutal, worse than pretty much any other surface I've ridden a loaded bike on. Some guys were lined up this year with panniers on, god knows what they were carrying though ) I had 11-12lbs of kit complete inc camelback and all bike bags, Spot, batteries, maps etc and it fitted into a 10l drybag on the bars, 8l drybag in a wildcat seat bag and a ~5-6l frame bag that had space for a spare bladder full of water if needed. I'm sure others were a few pounds lighter than that but 10lbs seems to be a reasonable aim.
Consider what would happen if you break a pannier fitting in the Basin or New Mexico on a hot or stormy day. All kind of things can go wrong but I think panniers are a weak point if you intend to go at a good pace. Personally I think a wise plan is to eliminate all possible points of failure - the TDR is a massive investment of time, has a high physical and financial cost and anything that could mean a DNF or lost days has to go.

I also didn't use motels, there's no real reason not to but a trail-side bivi is always faster

Good point - although I'd imagined myself eating proper cooked meals with nutrition where the opportunity arose.

I've not managed to find anyone talking about the washboarding before, my experience on dirt roads has told me that it can be really bad. I notice few people seem to be going for suspension though despite this.

[i] I notice few people seem to be going for suspension though despite this.[/i]

[i]Consider what would happen if you break a [s]pannier fitting [/s] bit of your rear suspension in the Basin or New Mexico [/i]

Well that's the obvious point, but

1) I've been riding suspension bikes for years, and haven't broken a thing. They've done a lot more than 2,800 miles. Obviously they could break, but they are generally reliable these days.

2) There's a trade-off between risk of failure and performance for all your kit. You have to decide - for example, there's no way in hell I'm doing it singlespeed 🙂

Please note - I'm not saying I would take suspension, nor that you are all wrong about points of failure. It's just food for thought.

What set up do you think you'll test out on the bb200?

For one (long) day of UK MTBing with one night's just-in-case gear, I think I would much prefer a rucksack.

Consider what would happen if you break a pannier fitting bit of your rear suspension in the Basin or New Mexico

I thought I'd found the perfect TD bike in my Flux until....

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

When I crossed the Divide we met several riders on various bikes. Some on tandems, some with bob trailers, some with panniers and even cx bikes, none were traveling at race pace. JamesO talks a lot of sense. Anything that has the potential to break. Most probably will.

How did you do that to the frame?

And isn't the flux the super silly light job with a rider weight limit?

I look forward to seeing how you progress with this: the TD is on my in-my-head-one-day-maybe list.

While past-TD racers are here, I'd be interested in how much training/prep you did beforehand.

Alright, well I'll keep you posted.

First thing I need is an appropiate bike, I reckon. Mine [s]aren't niche enough[/s] are all FS.

I bought a Lurcher in the recent Lurcher sale that will be my "endurance" (12 hour, 24 hour, multi-day unsupported events) bike.

Much lighter than my P7, more sensible than my Five, not too racy for long days in the saddle and 29er which we all know rolls better. 😛 😆 😛 No rack mounts though so I'll be using my saddle bag and wild cat harness. Thinking of going the alpkit frame bag route as well.

It will go between a 100mm and rigid fork depending upon the terrain it needs to be ridden on. Going for one of those exposure lights with dynamo hub that will also power a GPS and phone.

Hmm.. I wish I still had my P7 - although it was 26".

When's your lurcher being put to the test?

Hoping to have the Lurcher built by the end of the year... it's a project. Maybe first proper test will be El-an Back.

I'll be at BB200 with the current P7 setup and testing out some other gear.

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Ethan Stewart, a Brit living in Switzerland, did well on his Whippet this year. 26" wheels, well niche ) he finished 12th. We bivied in the same spot after the first day (where Alex Harris later told me he saw 2 bears strolling around as we set up camp, so he promptly f-ed off to the cabin at Corbin, 40 miles further!) and I saw him again at the services just over the border when I was fixing my frame bag. Saw another Brit in an o-o / planet x jersey at the start too. You just can't get away from Brits with o-o / PX kit : )

I bet you didn't see anyone on an Orange 5 or a Kona Heihei (the FS one) 🙂

Nope! And I wasn't the only one on a Jones, or with a ti truss fork (a black sheep rider had a 'fake' jones fork hehe) so no niche points for me.

Maybe I can get anti-niche points by riding something really mainstream.

Re the weight - serious question - has anyone weighed their frame bag, saddle bag etc all together?

Your mate's wife owns Wildcat Gear - why don't you go an see him? 😉

I might just do that Ian, I have an idea.. 🙂

For me it's about bunny hops (which are way easier than with panniers and getting airborne on a fully laden bike is exceedingly satisfying), balance (weight spread more evenly, heavy stuff in the frame and lighter stuff elsewhere) and bouncy bikes (no hassle with fitting a rack to the same mountain bike I normally ride on day to day that has no mounts for one).

Nowt wrong with panniers, but once heathery singletrack and tight rocky stuff appears I know which I prefer. Worth borrowing some bags/harnesses and seeing if you get on with them anyway.

I think you just need to try it to find out. But don't find out 'live' on something like the Tour Divide! Try it first.

I have used a rear Old Man Mountain rack with a drybag (or two) on the top of it for three main expeditions, including an 8 day bikepack tour with packraft, and latest being half of the Highland 400 race. I am going to move away from the rack, for two main reasons - 1) I have a new bike with bigger wheels, and so I have to redo my carrying equipment anyway, and 2) the rack encourages more stuff to be carried, and this extra stuff and weight really really sucks once you are into day two / three...

The idea of carrying less is the right one. Even a light rack is half a kilo, that is too much extra weight. A good rack is about 800 grams, way too much. A trailer is 10 kilos, you may as well get a boat anchor and tie it to the seatpost!

So, I am going to go with the 'standard' kit - seatmount bag, framebag, handlebar bag, and a small backpack. All the people (winners included) that use that setup can't be wrong.

Also note there will be nothing close to 10 kilos in the rear bag, more like 2 or 3.

I have used a rear Old Man Mountain rack with a drybag (or two) on the top of it for three main expeditions

I was thinking this might be a good option. Rear rack with an Alpkit Gourdon on it (as someone mentioned above). If the rack breaks or it gets rocky, I can put it on my back. That could be tried out easily enough.

the rack encourages more stuff to be carried

Not in this case 🙂 The reason I mentioned 10kg is that I thought 10l of water might be nice to have in the middle of a burning desert. Although the TDR folk don't seem to be carrying that much water so maybe there's more on the route than I thought - must buy those maps and start properly examining it.

I was thinking this might be a good option. Rear rack with an Alpkit Gourdon on it (as someone mentioned above). If the rack breaks or it gets rocky, I can put it on my back. That could be tried out easily enough.

Try it out, but I don't think it is optimal. otherwise a bunch of other people would be doing that.

The reason I mentioned 10kg is that I thought 10l of water might be nice to have in the middle of a burning desert. Although the TDR folk don't seem to be carrying that much water so maybe there's more on the route than I thought - must buy those maps and start properly examining it.

That is a lot of water / a lot of weight. I'd seriously research what the route is like and what other riders have done. I really don't see anyone carrying 10l of water on that race. And carrying too much could break your bike / race. Seriously. All that weight swinging out the back sucks on MTBs. The frame flexes a lot with that in panniers. And you go slower. Fast and light... fast and light.

Try it out, but I don't think it is optimal. otherwise a bunch of other people would be doing that.

I think it's all marginal, so personal preference comes into it.

That is a lot of water / a lot of weight.

Yep, and it's very hot and dry in deserts too 🙂

Seriously - read the thread. I do a lot of riding with panniers, I like how the bike handles, so not concerned about that. And I will of course be doing a lot of research, don't worry 🙂

This year was as dry as it's ever been on the Divide apparently, N Mexico was in full drought conditions with record low rainfall. I don't think I ever had more than 5.5l on me and generally that was a litre or so spare. At a reasonable pace you're never more than about 8 hours from water. Streams are common in the northern 3/4 of the route and you can drink a litre or more at a tap stop to help get you through, before filling up carriers. I think I drank from taps 85% or more of the time. So I'm still not seeing any good reason for panniers .. )
My frame bags and seat / bar packs weigh 1.5lb/650g. Sleeping system w/o tarp is 800g and really comfy down to near freezing. I debated over taking a 150g camera. So an 800g pannier rack has no chance )

Bloody hell, what's your sleeping kit at 800g?

On the topic of suspension, I think you'd be mad to ride the Divide with suspension. Extra weight, extra point of failure, very little trail that needs it. The washboard is brutal, but I don't think suspension will help you very much with that.

You might think it will be fine because you've done more than 2800 miles without it failure, but have you done that distance with no servicing? With riding in whatever the weather throws up because you're compelled to keep moving along in the race? Think how busted people get their bikes at Mayhem.... There is clay mud on the Divide which will also clog your wheels to the point where they won't go round, even when you're pushing. That's going to make a hell of a mess of a suspension bike.

When I asked another rider on year on the Divide whether he found his suspension fork useful, he said it had been locked out for almost the entire distance and he wished he had gone with rigid.

Bloody hell, what's your sleeping kit at 800g?

The bag is rated to 8 deg but a down gilet used as a filler made it cosy down to frost-point for me. tbh could have done it on a foam mat as there was often quite soft ground to sleep on but I was aching enough as it was so glad of the neoair most nights, my main luxury item really. I also had a 130g mini-tarp that covers my top 1/2 that was enough extra cover to sleep out comfortably on the only properly stormy night I had, other wet nights weren't raining hard enough to need more than sleeping face-down with the bivi opening downward.

@jamesso Aahhh, understood. So add in the gilet and its nearer ~1kg. Which Terra Nova bivvy bag is it at 180g? Is it breathable? My AMK crisp packet survival bag is 115g so that bivy bag is seriously light.

I thought my PHD minim was light at @~500g. Harrrumphh! 🙂

It's the Moonlight bag cover. Not a fully sealed bivi but breathable and works fine, my older Rab Survival Zone was a draw-cord closure too and that did me fine for years of bike and mtn bivies. The down gilet's approx 180g I guess you could count as part of the sleep system, it's a double-up item that I wore on the bike, used in the sleeping bag maybe 40% of the time, sometimes as a pillow, etc.

I don't think I ever had more than 5.5l on me and generally that was a litre or so spare.

That's good info, but I'd be a bit concerned about safety. If I had an accident and got stuck or something. But I dunno - more research and testing required.

You might think it will be fine because you've done more than 2800 miles without it failure, but have you done that distance with no servicing?

Next to none, but in any case all I'm doing is thinking about possibilities. I have pretty much already decided to go for a fully rigid 29er.

it's a double-up item that I wore on the bike

What weather necessitated a down gilet when riding?

About safety Moly, I think James said he carries a SPOT. The big yellow taxi is never far away assuming clear view of sky (i.e. no 127 hours stuff) and capacity to press a button.