[Closed] Why are my road brakes rubbish?

If there is a lot of pad clearance have you got the pads correctly assembled? If you have the brakes in the wrong part of their travel ratios can change. On my road bike with much older brakes I improved them a lot by adding spacers inbetween the pads and calipers and readjusting - it changed the leverage. This might however be pure pish on your brakes but worth a look

Have you tried new cables and housing, anti compression housing makes a big difference too.

My ultegra (6800) with standard pads and outers would send you over the bars if you yanked them.

Pad clearance doesn't sound right have you tried just pinching the clalipers together before you clamp the cable to close the gap?

Which Shimano pads is the first question i'd ask, they're available in a few compounds, some of which are very hard, and absolutely dire in terms of braking performance.Pretty sure leverage ratios have also changed, though not by a huge amount, and it was a fairly recent change, so doubt it affects components of the age you're talking.

Shimano have changed the cable pull over the years, if both ends of the setup aren’t from the same era they’ll be completely shit

Pad clearance doesn’t sound right have you tried just pinching the clalipers together before you clamp the cable to close the gap?

The barrel adjuster can close the gap between rim and pad just fine - but then there's not enough lever throw to make it comfortable when braking.

If there is a lot of pad clearance have you got the pads correctly assembled?

I'll check again but it looks normal. I recognise what you describe from MTB canti days when the pads had a stem and you could move them in and out but it's not immediately obvious how that would apply to calipers.

They are rim stoppers. Rim stoppers are rubbish by default.

Ceterum censeo fregit trium unciarum esse delendam

Cheers!
I.

They are rim stoppers. Rim stoppers are rubbish by default.

Ok but another bike I tried seemed to have much better rim brakes.

Check what cables are on SaxonRider's bike and try those.

My experience is almost all problems with cable brakes lie in the cables if the brake components are decent quality and you have the right pads.

They are rim stoppers. Rim stoppers are rubbish by default.

Well thats absolute bollocks.

Ivan, nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabris, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

Vah! Denuone latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur.

My old Scott with 105 lever, basic rim calipers and swisstop pads are as good as my orro with ultegra discs in the dry.

is the lever pull soft / long travel? Or is it hard with very short travel? Either would make me believe its something in the pull ratios

It's the cable outers and where they connect to the lever under the bar tape and hoods. Fitting cables takes time and patience and often the levers descend down the bars over time creating a gap between lever stop and cable housing (outers). I have Campag and Shimano stuff from that era - both equally good on a road bike.

This. Is there a ferule on the end of the outer that goes into the lever? If not the hole can sometimes strip the outer plastic and pull the cable through the hole. Then you pull, nothing happens and eventually you get the tension. I had the same on a TT bike and when I pulled it apart the plastic had been stripped back.

Replace with decent new cables and be sure to add a metal ferule to each end.

It’s the cable outers and where they connect to the lever under the bar tape and hoods.

I'd thought about this..

the hole can sometimes strip the outer plastic and pull the cable through the hole

.. but not this. I've just re-done the bar tape as well.. but I'll check it 🙂

IME, modern Shimano calipers are way better than the ones from BITD.

^^^

The ones with dual pivot are way better.

They really aren’t. My 600s are very good even as a single pivot. Moving to dual pivots is nice but there were brakes better than Mafac and Weinmann 😉 . I have variously 600, 6600, 6700, 6800, 9000 and deep drop R650. There’s not a huge difference. I strongly suspect cables.

If not the hole can sometimes strip the outer plastic and pull the cable through the hole

Had this with a set of old diacompe levers but they just pulled the whole lot through the hole was so big. They used a special ferule I didn't have and was quite annoying but it's a much more sensible system.

BTW are they shiny with metal cable adjusters?those are 6600. If the brakes are 600 SLR there may be some mismatch as they had different springs and ratios and predate STI.

have variously 600, 6600, 6700, 6800, 9000 and deep drop R650. There’s not a huge difference. I strongly suspect cables.

I have R650s. They're not a patch on 5800, even with new cables and Swisstop pads.

I think the calipers are 6700.

I'd suggest trying some KoolStop Salmon pads as a relatively cheap solution, got a big improvement on my Tektro long drop calipers with them.

Check the actual model numbers, it’s on the back of the brakes and on the side of the lever body under the hoods.

That will at least give us a starting point to comment from. Shimano have changed lever and calliper ratios over the years from ‘standard’ to SLR to Super SLR and then ‘new’ Super SLR.

It’s complicated if you’re not aware of it and easy to make a bad match but fortunately Shimano tech docs are pretty comprehensive and archived over the last 20 odd years so the information is available. They have even produced compatibility tables to help people work out what will work with what.

FWIW if you’re running say 6800 levers with 6600 brakes then they will run with extra clearance, feel very firm at the lever but be shit for actual braking power as that’s a bad match, akin to running cantis with V brake levers.

If you’re running compatible parts then it’ll be down to cables and pads (and rims to a lesser degree), but let’s check parts first.

I’m sure I’ve even chatted with you about this in an old thread at some point.

My old road brakes had corrosion on the pivot bushings

Felt fine in the garage, useless when a lot of force was put through them on the road.

You can't get replacements i think

I have R650s. They’re not a patch on 5800, even with new cables and Swisstop pads.

+1!

That’s cos r650s are a 57mm drop calliper using the older ‘super SLR’ ratio. There are no CURRENT shimano STIs that have the correct lever pull for those brakes, and there hasn’t been one for some time, they’re all ‘new’ Super SLR/SLR-EV. They’re also longer reach so will never be quite as good if the pads are at the bottom of the slots compared to s short 37-47mm reach brake (even with the same ratio).

They are one of the best long drop brakes out there but need to be paired with the right levers.

That’s cos r650s are a 57mm drop calliper using the older ‘super SLR’ ratio.

I know. That's why I use them with 6600 levers. They're ok but as I said, not a patch on the newer models.

My R650s are pulled by Cane Creek aero brake levers on my fixed road bike. They are excellent. As good as my other matched sets. I’m also running 6700 front brake with an old Campagnolo aero brake fine too.

R650s are long drop 6600 brakes. They’ll work very well with the last generation 10 speed with exposed gear cables. Those shifters are miles better than the 6700 10 speed too as the 6700 cable routing is awful. Fixed at 11 speed.

I know. That’s why I use them with 6600 levers. They’re ok but as I said, not a patch on the newer models.

But there is no comparable newer model? Shimano don’t do a 57mm drop brake in anything other than the old ratio so the difference is mostly going to be in long drop vs short, not old vs new.

Shimano current brakes are ace, but not night a day better than their older models comparable models.

Shimano have changed lever and calliper ratios over the years

Ah, this is what I was looking for. And apologies if you've told me before and I forgot!

I have no idea how to check what levers I have as all the markings have scratched off.

I changed the cables - there was no ferrule on the lever end but it hadn't pulled through. Seems to be somewhat improved. Also tightened up the small pivot bolt, might've helped a bit too.

Swissstop pads are brilliant if you fancy an upgrade at the business end. I swapped to a set when the stock Campag pads on my road bike barely slowed me down on the steep, wet descent from Long Hill into the Goyt. Just a quantum leap in effectiveness, particularly in the wet.

My road bike runs Exalith rims and pads and ompressionless housing with Campag Chorus dual-pivot brakes and stops better than my disc-braked cross bike. But with normal rims, the pads made the biggest difference for me. YMMV.

Well thats absolute bollocks.

Yeah... Especially in wet :p

I prefer stopping with one finger in ANY conditions, not praying that my pre-estimated reaction time to displace water from the rim is long enough 😀

Enjoy mate, I'll give it a miss...

Cheers!
I.

Try new pads, preferably decent swisstop ones.

The brakes on my singlespeed have gotten worse recently despite removing the pads, filing them flat and cutting new water displacing grooves into them. Dunno if it's possible to overheat rubber pads and harden them?

Shimano have changed lever and calliper ratios over the years

I don't think it's a really noticeable amount though, cane creek, kcnc, TRP, avid and even shimano don't produce a variation of their cable disks, mini-V's*, canti's for each iteration.

*might be an exception, I think there are actually different lengths of mini V's for BMX levers as well as the road versions.

Are you talking about stopping power or the actuation?

If you've got unusually long lever travel and or spongy feel, it's not the pads.

Check the spring tension in the caliper and alignment, correctly toe the pads with the bare minimum of clearance. Check the cable inner and outers from end to end.

My 6800's have a real positive bite over quite a short throw but still allow good modulation. That's with standard Shimano pads.

Check the spring tension in the caliper and alignment, correctly toe the pads with the bare minimum of clearance. Check the cable inner and outers from end to end.

My 6800’s have a real positive bite over quite a short throw but still allow good modulation. That’s with standard Shimano pads.

I'd say the opposite, I run my brakes right upto the bar. You've got much more leverage over the brakes that way, rather than trying to pull the lever with your fingertips.

Are you talking about stopping power or the actuation?

Stopping power. Simply changing pads to some third party doesn't seem the right idea somehow. They ought to work properly with stock pads - especially as so many people say they should.

They feel a bit spongy. There is several mm of flex visible at the cable - it appears to just be the caliper itself flexing, and NOT the pad or the shoe.

I will have to take it for a proper ride now I've changed cables and see what happens. I could strip the caliper and clean it up check for corrosion, but I can't see how this would affect the ultimate power if they are smooth in operation?

If you’ve got unusually long lever travel and or spongy feel, it’s not the pads.

Well I adjust the cable to get a normal amount of lever through. There is a good deal of pad clearance when I do this - 2-3mm or so. More than I would have expected even with the lever fairly tight.

you have flipped the little cam lever over that lets you open them up to get the wheels out?

The lever model number is on the side of the body (not lever) under the hoods so if be surprised if you’d scratched it off. You could help by saying if they’re 11 speed (6800) or 10, and if 10 whether the gear cables are external (6600) or under tape (6700).

The brake model number is in the back of the brake so again should be checkable.

For info, the difference between pull ratios over the years has been in the region of 10-20% * enough to notice if you’re pairing parts the ‘wrong’ way, and made worse if you have any other issues like cables etc.

Draggy (even if not easily felt in the stand) cables, coupled with badly finished outer cable ends or wonky seating can also rob a significant amount of power.

Cable ends should be cut with the cables either in situ, or pre bent to whatever contour they’ll be on the bike, and then the ends need grinding flat and ferrules fitting. Otherwise over time the strands will creep and you’ll end up with a bad fit that gets worse over time. Changing inners won’t help if your outlets aren’t right.

*FWIW the difference between pads st top of slots vs bottom can be in the region of 15-20% too so if you’re unlucky enough to be at the wrong end of the slots, with a bad lever pairing and dodgy cabling you can see how you could easily lose a LOT of braking power.

Also...

but I can’t see how this would affect the ultimate power if they are smooth in operation?

Friction under service loads can be VERY different to what you can feel in the stand, and any friction you need to overcome is effort wasted and not transferred to the rim. That goes for pivots and cables too, once there’s some load involved friction can increase dramatically*

* think about fork bushings as an (unrelated) example, smooth when bounced, but jam a front brake on and apply some force, not so smooth now, and in extremis they can even bind. Pivots suffer similarly, put a load through them and they can behave very differently.

What's your rim surface like? How old are the rims? Can you still see the wear indicators? Have you cleaned the rims?

Shimano don’t do a 57mm drop brake in anything other than the old ratio so the difference is mostly going to be in long drop vs short, not old vs new.

In my experience:

Hope RX4 hydros> Shimano hydros> Spyre cable discs> 5800 calipers> 6600 calipers> R650 calipers.

Rims are ok. Not too old, clean.

You could help by saying if they’re 11 speed (6800) or 10, and if 10 whether the gear cables are external (6600) or under tape (6700).

10 speed, cables under tape, so likely to be 6700. If so, then it sounds like they match my brakes. I'll check numbers later. Thanks for the tips.

I’ve got Ultegra calipers of uncertain but significant vintage, and Ultegra levers from approximately.. 2008-9 ish..? And they are poor.

My summer road bike is 2008 Ultegra and the brakes are still excellent, in the dry on a par with discs, in the wet still pretty good. Wheels are Zipp 404s with the Al braking surface. I'm still using the original stock pads (the bike did spend 10 years barely ridden), so is only 1-2 years old in terms of actual use.

I stripped the calipers down (bit of a palaver that was), fitted new Shimano pads, probably set them up a bit better and cleaned the rims.

They are quite a bit better now but my feeling is it's probably the pads. Still nowhere near discs obviously but much improved. Will have to see how they are on a proper ride.

I opted not to use grease on the calipers. It would have gunked up before long, so I'm using light PTFE lube and it'll have to be reapplied.

FWIW when I was running cheap-ass tektro calipers (OE) on my old road bike bike I used ultegra pads for a bit because they were cheap. I later found BBB roadstop to be an excellent improvement and didn't pick up as much rim-damaging grit/sand etc.

Obviously not going to be as good as salmon kool stops but way way cheaper.

After nearly having an incident coming down Newlands Pass I swapped to Swisstop pads and they were night and day better.

Agreed that shimano stock pads are rubbish and big improvements to be had from swiss stop or salmon kool pads. Also use that small screw adjuster to ensure both pads contact the rim at the same time.