Why am I climbing like an old man?

I think you've the germ of a plan already. You get fitter while recovering/resting and you can do squats etc on those days. But if you don't want to do targeted exercise then you're going to have to accept a decline in performance.

Do you record heart rate? That might show up some factors.

Could also just be heat.

Am I just riding too frequently, and not giving my legs an opportunity to recover?

Probably. If you've done 12 rides and three or four runs in the last 14 days, your body's likely just not had a change to recover and rebound, so you'll be in a downward spiral - often rides people think are 'easy' turn out to be not particularly easy at all and, ime, runs are pretty much never easy, because that's how running is.

I'd maybe have a really easy recovery week with some stretching, maybe a couple of genuinely easy short-ish rides and some gentle strolls and see how you go after that. If you're re-energised, or at least feel a lot better, you've got your answer. Don't do squats or weights or whatever on easy days btw, they'll just mess up your recovery.

If backing off has no effect and you think you're unusually weak etc, it might be worth speaking to your GP and getting some blood tests etc just in case you have a deficiency of something important.

The trouble with comparing yourself with others is that it's not a static target. Do you use something like Strava so you can compare your performance on a few segments over time for a slightly more objective picture.

If you want more technical, the Joe Friel book 'Fast After 50' is a good, detailed look at how performance changes as you age and how you can minimise deterioration - the general principles he outlines are really good. Fwiw, I'm pretty sure you're around the same age as Nick Craig, who is still competitive at elite national level races, so I wouldn't give up just yet 🙂

I'd recommend reading "Body By Science" by Dr. Doug McGuff. At age 60+ I doubled my leg press weight in 10m sessions of 90 seconds each session, yes 90 seconds. The big 5 is a 12 minute once a week workout. Theres a lot of logic and medical science backing it up.

Doug represented the US on BMX in the Olympics. He's no overpumped body builder. A major aspect of his protocol is FULL recovery between sessions. He works pretty hard at it (look up his big 5 on youtube), in his BMX days he'd stop the gym 14 days or more before a race.

Doug is big on avoiding sarcopenia (inevitable age related muscle wasting) - his protocol is largely designed around that. It's a good book cos its not just about pumping heavy machines very slowly to momentary failure.

Cheers. I've got the 'Fast After 50' book on the waiting-to-be-read pile, so will give that a look.

But if you don’t want to do targeted exercise then you’re going to have to accept a decline in performance.

I'm not completely averse to doing something to help improve, but certainly am not going to do Turbo/Zwift stuff ... I guess I'm looking for some tips for how I can tweak my rides to incorporate some semi-targeted actions ... so, grind up climbs sitting down in a big gear? Sprint up climbs? Twiddle a low gear as fast as I can? Etc.

Also, I SS quite a lot, is that likely to take it out of my legs more than geared? Do I need to think smarter about recovery especially after SS-ing?

Also, I SS quite a lot, is that likely to take it out of my legs more than geared? Do I need to think smarter about recovery especially after SS-ing?

My take based on riding singlespeed pretty much exclusively in the Peak for a couple of years in the past, is that riding a singlespeed on hilly terrain is like doing an interval session. It's either really hard or really easy with not much in between. Intense efforts like that are harder to recover from than steady, sub-threshold stuff. So yes, you need to factor that in.

As Scotroutes says, are you measuring effort objectively with HR or power? Have you properly built your aerobic base?

I'm 58 🎂 today, and had a similar issue  in 20/21. I awas just spending far too much time in HR Z4/Z5 on my weekend rides. Totally beaten up for the rest of the week and no energy for additional efforts. Spending time riding at lower effort Z2/Z3 allowed me to do more during the week without feeling tired and added in time off. I'm fitter now than I was in my 40s

'I’m not interested in gym work, hill reps or turbo'

There you go. You're doing lots of low or middling aerobic work, and nothing hard at the top end.  This is what happens.   If you're really that bothered figure out how to make hard, short hill reps fun for you so you can improve max power.

I don't agree with all that McGuff guff, but he has a good point maintaining muscle strengh, power

signed, person of similar age

Not enough info given to give much insight and even if we did, unless you are chronically overtraining (a vast majority of 12 riding days over a fortnight for most riders would need to be zone 1/2 power and heartrate), you don't want to do training that would would improve your hill climbing fitness.

Zwift started a hill climbing series last week, if some friendly competition gets you motivated, for most the current timed climb will take less than 10mins to complete (events run 1030; 1230; 1430; 1830; 1930 BST plus a few times overnight UK time). 1230 today run https://zwiftpower.com/events.php?zid=3705909

I don’t agree with all that McGuff guff,

Ha I've just been looking at that, also very sceptical. One of the top search results is a review by Alex Fergus, he was a sceptic also but tried it for 9 months (from a position of being very fit & strong already) and went on to unexpectedly win some sort of 'fittest man' competition. I was worried his review was just going to be more glowing praise, but toward the end he says:

If you were thinking ‘this all sounds too good to be true, what’s the catch’, then this is it: HIT training hurts. Big time.To reap all the benefits, you need to do these sessions properly, and that means taking the muscle to absolute failure, which in turn means pain. Lots of it....

I would question whether I could continue doing HIT for a long period – the pain levels are extreme, and some sessions I went into the gym in a state of anxiety (though this was true with some rowing sessions, powerlifting sessions and bodybuilding sessions), and it may get rather monotonous over time. Though I survived 9 months and only stopped because I thought up a new experiment…

Re mcguff big 5 - is anyone here using it and if so does it work combining it with a couple of rides a week where competing on the climbs is mandatory?

I.e does the 7 days off period between mcguff sessions mean no other exercise or no other mcguff?

The take-away from the 'Fast after 50' book is basically that you need to do properly hard intervals, and weights too, and then allow plenty of time to recover - even changing the length of your training 'weeks' if you need extra time to recover. I'm a similar age and found that the enforced weight loss from lockdown (I lost about six kilos) made a massive difference to my climbing. I think, though, that proper rest and proper warm-ups also play a big part. I often find myself struggling for the first hour of a ride with others who are fast out of the gate. It's only later in the ride that I can start making some effort...

@chipps - having lost 4kg this year - mainly through running - I agree that weight loss is a massive change to my climbing ability. Folk I ride with have noticed.

I've always been a slow starter though, regularly seeing folk pedaling off into the distance at the start but then carrying on at a decent pace when they're tiring.

I’m 10 years younger and I can’t see myself being able to ride like I want to if I was riding that much - we’re not machines, we have to rest. I swap between an ebike and a singlespeed and I do think the range of intensity both those allow is helpful.

FWIW I reckon it's best to have biking buddies that are younger than you are. It (a) makes you work a bit harder than you might otherwise and (b) gives you a ready-made excuse for your inability to keep up with them

“I agree that weight loss is a massive change to my climbing ability.”

I’m about 8kg lighter than my heaviest (I got into lifting heavy things in the gym before lockdown stopped that fun) and I can’t deny I’m enjoying whizzing up the hills!

Get an ebike. They are brilliant and riding uphill is boring and sucks ass.
Why make things harder and less fun.
You're welcome.

2/10 must try harder.

Re 'top end', I think as I've got older whilst I've undoubtedly lost form, I've also lost a bit of the ability to hurt myself - by that I mean putting myself in the Hurt locker and staying there. I suspect that's probably connected to my lack of times I want to - riding now is far more about the journey and down time. So when I do have to turn it on I don't seem to be able to sustain a pain level - I suspect my mind gives up before my body.

But also.....as others have said recovery does not seem to be part of your routine and it needs to be.

I used to be quite good at climbing on the bike. Then a few years ago I started to get dropped by the bunch on a climb, that just wasn’t right. I felt that’s it age has caught up with me. I then weighed myself and I’d put on 5kgs eating too many protein bars. Lost the 5kgs and I was back climbing normally. It’s all power to weight when climbing even a couple of kgs make a difference.

The fast after 50 book is good. Especially interesting to me was the fall in VO2max as you age.

What are your times like?

Riding with faster people (Inc those who have got faster), means you have to dig deeper, maybe than you are able.

It's cumulative.

Or you have bad cat aids.

Yes, but the dropoff in VO2 max in the HIT type programs is often down to people neglecting to do bulk aerobic work because they 'need to rest for their HIT program'.

Go read 'Training for the New Alpinism'. Warning - this is NOT a youtube quickfix manual

EDIT - and yes, what Convert says.  I can train so hard now, but no way will I dig as deep as I used to.  That's age, and a reduction in how hard I'll push.  I can't imagine training till vomiting now

My take is that if your racing your mates up the climbs then then you’ll be getting plenty of top end

I’d look at getting the commutes down to zone 2 or 1 to reduce overall load

It’s worth pointing out that Nick Craig only recently started doing any indoor stuff. Here’s massive on zone 2 and then doing the top end by trying to clean tough local climbs

As others have said I don't think you've given yourself enough rest. Do you use a Garmin watch? The later ones are excellent imv of keeping track of sleep, your current training status, and recovery. I ride 3 times a week, typically ss, and run 4-5 times a week on my watches recommendations. My vo2 max has climbed pretty steadily and it's striking how the watch reports some big improvements when I'm doing 'recovery' done in zone 2 for 30 mins or so.

Happy birthday @susepic.

The two things that help me when I want to go faster, drop weight, and do loads of Z2 rides. But out of those two; weight.

I'm in my mid-forties. Any athletic talent I had was always in sprinting (I was a national finalist sprinter as a teenager and a decent rugby wing). Since then though, all my sport has been mostly endurance based (MTB and backcountry snowboarding).

I work as a guide both summer (bike) and winter (snowboard), so I'm on the hill a LOT but usually at a pace which is very comfortable for me. In winter 2021, I got probably as fit (and as light) as I've ever been when we went through "the winter with no lifts" and I did about 100 days of leg-powered snowboarding. I started to notice a problem though. I could go forever at a low-ish pace, but when I tried to sprint, there just seemed to be something missing. It wasn't even that I felt too tired to sprint or whatever, there just seemed to be a door that wouldn't open. This bothered me as sprinting had always been something I could rely on. Since then, I've tried to do something about it. I've noticed a big difference from doing hill sprints. With a new baby at home, I've recently just been squeezing in training sessions rather than long rides and I actually feel fitter than usual. When I get out for a longer (solo) ride, I will do intervals up the climbs rather than climb at a steady pace. I've definitely noticed an improvement from this, not just in sprinting but in the sustained pace that I can hold.

I've generally been doing 3x3x3x3 intervals (i.e. 3 sets of 3 x 3 minutes sprint, 3 minutes easy) as that's what one of my colleagues suggested when he used us as guinea pigs for some coaching qualis, but I'll sometimes just set the sprint length to suit whichever hill I have handy and do laps of it. I can beast up a steep hill out of my village then cruise a flat at the top and come down some nice singletrack for about a 4 minute climb, 4 minute easy loop and that works pretty well. Pop out once the baby's sleeping and repeat ad (literally) nauseum or until it gets dark...

I lost a few kilos last year and it helped massively with my climbing.

I remember Alex Dowsett saying something about comparing the excess body weight you're carrying to full water bottles. Turns out I was riding up hills carrying what was the equivalent of 4x litre bottles.

The weight was also close to the weight of my first born, which made me think of riding up bloody great hills with him strapped to me.

When I was able to visualise it like that, no wonder climbing got easier.

Watching this with interest. I started road riding with a club in October last year, just on a Sunday - and an undulating Wednesday 11.3 mile TT during the longer evenings.

My ability to suffer had diminished, but the TT's are sorting that! Whilst my times are slowly improving the main effect has been on my strength on the Sunday rides, out of the C group and holding my own in the B's 🙂

I monitor my heart rate, and I do seem to be regaining the ability to rev it higher, so high intensity shortish efforts with lots of recovery days seems to work for me, YMMV of course.

Despite being a (rather heavier) shadow of my late teen self (last time I did any TT's) I'm loving the fitness gains from cycling at 54, don't accept the fading of the light!

Thanks @nickc, does my copious rosé loading today help? 😉

Sounds like i need to do some dieting as well as Z2 to make me a better climber.

Interesting reading the comments, is HIIT better that Z2, seems to be a circular conversation, and probably a bit of both is what's required, alongside good recovery

probably a bit of both is what’s required

No,  most of the training still needs to be Z2 and only 10-15% 0f total training volume should be HIT.  Some strength training added too.

Personally I struggle with structured training in summer, I just want to ride interesting trails and enjoy the scenery.

FWIW I reckon it’s best to have biking buddies that are younger than you are. It (a) makes you work a bit harder than you might otherwise and (b) gives you a ready-made excuse for your inability to keep up with them

I wish!

If i ride with my favourite three riders I'm as much as 16 years younger and 30kg heavier than the heaviest one! They're monsters... albeit little ones. The (retired) 60 year old wins every  event in his age group and he only took up cycling three years ago. He can sustain a Zone 2 ride when i'm 'blowing out my arse' as they say. So weight is my excuse 🙂

I'm virtually the same weight I was when I was 18, but if I could drop a few water bottles I'm certain hills would be much easier.

I see people mention Z2 a lot. What is it? (I don’t ride road bikes!)

I see people mention Z2 a lot. What is it? (I don’t ride road bikes!)

Light, low level effort, you can do it for ages - or feel like you can - and chat with people etc. It's good for your mitochondria health and your health generally and kind of building a durable, efficient, long-term engine. It's also the latest training buzz thing, though in effect it's been around for decades. Basically you need to do lots of zone 2 and a relatively small amount of short, hard efforts.

That's a gross over-simplification and there are people on here who will go into microscopic detail and have shrines to Pogacar's coach in their pain cave, but the really simple gist of it is pretty easy riding. Unfortunately it's hard to do on a mountain bike if you live somewhere hilly and potentially a little dull.

It does make me wonder though whether just going for a brisk walk would do instead.

It does make me wonder though whether just going for a brisk walk would do instead.

I monitored my HR when walking thanks to long covid, on the flat and downhill the effort is relatively low, but on uphill inclines, yes, you'd be in zone 2 if you make a little effort. Much harder to do that on the flat though. Hill walking would be good, at least the uphill bits.

I see people mention Z2 a lot. What is it? (I don’t ride road bikes!)

I don't ride roadie either. Z2 is labelled as "easy" in most of the the sorts articles it's mentioned, to me it's more like working at "super cruise" It's the fastest you can go while working at a level you think you could sustain, for me on my Scandal, it's about 145-150bpm and on the flat with my gearing, about 19-20mph. It's not easy as such, it's just not going flat out, after a few hours of it, it's feels like a work out, but (especially) on hills, it's hard to maintain.

But really where climbing's concerned: Weight loss. It's free, it comes with added beneficial side-effects, it saves you money, and it's pretty much bang-on guaranteed to make you go faster

Thanks, that’s a nice explanation! It sounds like it’s where I end up sitting where I’m on a group ride with slower riders or when I’m on my ebike and feeling tired so I let the motor do more of the work.

I’m now curious about a cheap heart rate monitor to get a feel for this - any suggestions?

There's different heart rate zone paradigms. How I understood it when I did play around with it for a while was similar to BWD... Z1 very little effort...  no less than that, very very light pedal pressure.  Z2 still pretty easy - and still requires some care to avoid your effort tipping you into Z3. With Z3 being a sort of 'junk miles' zone not easy enough nor hard enough. Z4 was threshold effort, just about sustainable for a 1 hour XC race, while Z5 max effort for (much?) less than a minute at a time.

Been using a Coospo ANT+/Bluetooth for five years, ~£25 from Amazon.

For most folk a wrist-based HR monitor would be sufficient, more comfortable and actually has a secondary use (as a watch). Even something like a second hand Forerunner 35 would do all you need.

Set up an account on Garmin Connect and you'll get lots of free analysis.

Thanks everyone, lots of good advice.

Takeaways for me ...

• I'm going to have an easier week this week
• Generally, I'm going to work harder at rest/recovery
• I'm going to finally open the packaging of the HRM I bought a couple of years ago, and get that set up
• I'm going to roughly work out my max heart rate, zones etc, and try and incorporate a bit of loose structure in some of my riding.

If anyone can link to an idiot's guide/advise how to work out heart rate zones, threshold, what they all mean, etc, that'd be great. I don't have a turbo or power meter, so will need to rely on HRM and riding outside to work this all out.

Cheers.