[Closed] Who pays?

I would hope the person running into me would offer before I had to ask, but I guess I couldnt actually make him pay? Did the mech owner brake suddenly or move erratically?

Depends really, as he following too close, or not paying attention. Did the rider in front swerve unexpectedly, or hammer the brakes on?

how much does the rider in front value the friendship or goodwill of the club?

when I’ve been riding in a group whether it’s on mtb, road or motorbike (when younger and more foolish, or on track) I’ve always viewed crashes as being one of the risks and I’d probably just suck it up. Although having said that, were I the rider behind, I’d probably offer something out of goodwill - probably not full RRP for the mech though!

Where there's blame, there's a claim!

LAWYER UP! 

🙂

Who has the liability insurance?

Whats the bike club rules?

If riding in a group, crashes are going to happen. Suck it up imo

Need more detail - I've ridden with people who are barely competent in a bunch, can't get out the saddle without dropping back 2 feet, too-hard on the brakes etc so not always just down to the rider behind. I'm also of the view that if you can't afford to crash, then ride something cheaper.

does anyone ever pay full rrp?

I’d work on the rule that someone who’s running dura ace should be capable of fitting their own rear mech so would offer to pay for the damage if it was my fault but probably wouldn’t cough up for a bike shop to do the work - it’s a 5 minute job.

This is STW so in general it goes as follows:

Non-cyclist causes damage to cyclist then non-cyclist pays, plus report the non-cyclist scum to police and their employer.

Cyclist causes damage to non-cyclist then cyclist shouldn't pay because it was probably the non-cyclists fault anyway. Do a runner unless the cyclist damaged their own stuff in the process, in which case revert to above.

Cyclist causes damage to cyclist then live and let live. Sometimes shit just happens.

It's not a 5 minute job if you do it properly. First thing I'd be doing is checking the hanger as that could well be bent if the force was enough to break a mech. There's five minutes work alone.

Cyclist causes damage to cyclist then live and let live. Sometimes shit just happens.

Not exactly. Riding in a bunch means braking distances etc are out the window. If you can’t accept that crashes will happen then you shouldn’t ride in a bunch

If riding in a group, crashes are going to happen. Suck it up imo

Yep

Usual too close to brake rules don't apply to group riding. Often the person in front is to blame or even the person in front of the person in front. When I was still riding with a club there were people I would refuse to ride near. Fortunately I was strong enough in comparison to the majority to ride on the front for the bulk of the ride. Strong ride leaders are also needed to 'educate' the talentless and eject from the group if needs be for the safety of the rest.

It’s a sad indictment of todays world that your first thought was how much money can we make.

Personal opinion:

Unless there is actual, proper negligence (i.e. the guy behind was pissing about, or riding like a cock) then it's just a case of "shit happens" and suck it up. If I was the one behind and had properly screwed up and caused the crash, I might offer to fix it for you (£130 for a rear mech + my time FOC) but wouldn't be too happy to pay £250 for full retail + shop labour, which I wouldn't even do on my own bikes.

My son was flattened by another rider at the weekend and trashed a set of QR skewers. No question as to blame, but I wouldn't think to go after them for money - it's just something that happens when riding and I bought and fitted a new set. In fact, I was actually down, money-wise, as I ended up fixing the other boy's mum's chain, so needed to buy another 10sp chain link! These things happen and it's not worth getting riled about.

) I’ve always viewed crashes as being one of the risks and I’d probably just suck it up.

It's this really. If I thought the rider who'd caused the crash had ridden like a knob I'd certainly tell them so, but if you ride an expensive bike in a group best make sure you can afford to repair it.

Either they sort it out between themselves or one of them makes a claim on their home insurance. Can't they figure this out between themselves like grown ups?

It’s a sad indictment of todays world that your first thought was how much money can we make.

I can't see that anyone has thought that. You sound more grumpy and glass half empty than me!

Another vote for “shit happens”, admittedly I don’t ride road where I assume damage is rarer, but I won’t buy stuff that’s too fancy to break because I inevitability will break it.

Can’t they figure this out between themselves like grown ups?

I'd like to think so and all was well until the crasher found out how much dura-ace costs even from an online supplier.

Apparently they were slowing to enter a cafe stop Car park and the rider behind wasn't paying attention. They have now blamed the rider in fronts disc brakes though so I've heard

If riding in a group, crashes are going to happen. Suck it up imo

This.

They have now blamed the rider in fronts disc brakes though so I’ve heard

Priceless. They were lucky not to lose a leg as well then. Sounds a bit like a pair of children unable to accept risk or responsibility, I'd leave them to it.

Sounds a bit like a pair of children unable to accept risk or responsibility, I’d leave them to it.

This. It'll all go a bit handbags and you can laugh at them while you're off riding your bike.

If it were cars, then the liability would lie with the chap who ran into the back of the other chap. Personally I'd take it as one of those things and a risk of riding in a pack. However, they sound serious types so I'd assume that they're British Cycling members; would their 3rd party insurance cover it?

Riding in a group, shit happens. But if it was me that had ridden into some-one I'd be offering to foot the bill. The fact that it's Dura ace is besides the point really.

It would depend on the means of the one who hit me.

If they rock up on a halfords special or something not running Dura Ace then I would leave it.

If they are of comparable means I would expect them to offer to go half way.

I've just started riding with a road club, after spending decades avoiding clubs. The amount of shouting and hand waving that goes on is incredible, but compared to another club I tried a few years back, the accident rate seems to be lower. If one of our groups is making a cafe stop, several people will be shouting 'Slowing' and making the hand signal for slowing. This means that you are less likely to get rear-ended, but if you do it's pretty likely to be the rear-enders fault.

However, they sound serious types so I’d assume that they’re British Cycling members; would their 3rd party insurance cover it?

BC does not cover member on member issues.

<div class="bbp-reply-author">cheddarchallenged
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I’d work on the rule that someone who’s running dura ace should be capable of fitting their own rear mech

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I don't think you've ever visited SW London....

member on member issues

😳

Aye, it's the dangers of group riding, no liability imo.

I’ve just started riding with a road club, after spending decades avoiding clubs. The amount of shouting and hand waving that goes on is incredible, but compared to another club I tried a few years back, the accident rate seems to be lower.

Yup, road cyclists like shouting and waving, but they also like riding 6 inches from each other at speed and, if you've ever ridden like this, you soon become very appreciative of the signals!

Given that everyone accepts the risks of riding in a group, I think at best it would be fair for the guy to offer to pay half, but he shouldn't be obligated.

You cycle in a bunch at your own risk.

Apparently they were slowing to enter a cafe stop Car park and the rider behind wasn’t paying attention.

I'd be expecting the the bloke to pay up or at least offer, if he wasn't paying attention in this situation. I wouldn't be happy if he started to blame me for stopping at a place I assume everybody knew they were stopping at. Crasher sounds like a nob.

If we were good mates it'd all be different though.

Crasher sounds like a nob.

Two sides to every story. OP only has the say so of one. I would not be make any such judgement on that alone.

assume

Thats is an important word. If he didn’t know, it doesn’t sound like anyone shouted, and Mr Di2 braked hard/suddenly then it’s just back to “shit happens” and Mr Di2 should know better when braking in a group.

Rider who crashed into the mech pays. Same as if it happened on a mountain bike ride, or if it were cars.

Rider who crashed into the mech pays. Same as if it happened on a mountain bike ride, or if it were cars.

Why? If the chap in front pulled on his anchors without giving the chap behind notice, then what chance did he have? It's why group riding skills are something that need to be practiced, no less than a mountain biker would practice a manual or bunny hop. There is a reliance on the overall skill of the group and you need to be confident that the riders around you aren't going to make abrupt, unsignalled manoeuvres.

Rider who crashed into the mech pays. Same as if it happened on a mountain bike ride, or if it were cars.

I suspect you have never been part of a group road ride.

Mr Di2

if it was Di2 he'd be looking at double the cost.

I'm with the 'hazard of riding in groups' lot. if you don't want to risk losing a £200 rear mech, don't ride with one, a 105 mech is £30 and does the job just as well

Same as if it happened on a mountain bike ride, or if it were cars.

It's nothing like another car crashing into you on the road. If you ride in a group, you do it with an understanding of the risks. It's more like taking your car on a track day or entering into a race.

Threads like this really put me off going for a club ride. If some guy rode into me id not think for one moment about asking them to cover any damage. Id be rocking up knowing that a crash is a possibility, and if I Couldn't afford to replace it I wouldn't bring it.

Sure a mech aint cheap but what happens when a fellow rider decides you are to blame for the damage to their 3k frame..

Im surprised this one is even up for debate

Just part of riding with other people. They may offer to pay as a nice gesture, you can then graciously refuse. Let's hope it never gets like cars and the blame culture

I'm another one in the "one of the risks you accept on a group ride" camp - and I say this having recently written off a £4k road bike in a crash on a club ride.  If you want to ride in close proximity to other people you accept that there are risks of doing so.  For that I claimed on my insurance rather than blaming anyone else, but it wouldn't be worth an insurance claim for a mech I wouldn't have thought.

It’s nothing like another car crashing into you on the road.

Two bikes crashing into each other on the road is nothing like two cars crashing into each other on the road?

Yes, that's totally obvious...

Two bikes crashing into each other on the road is nothing like two cars crashing into each other on the road?

Yes, that’s totally obvious…

I repeat, have you ever been involved in a group road ride?  Or even watched pro road cycling on the TV? The very point of a group road ride is to aim to get within 4 inches of the wheel in front and rotate through for aerodynamic and therefore energy saving advantage. The potential danger this causes is known by all and accepted as part of group riding. It is mitigated by good communication. It is like aircraft in formation rather than flying with minimum separation distance as would normally be the case.

If in normal driving a car on the road you crash into the back of someone you were too close to react. If you crash into a mtb you were following down a trail you were following too close to react. In a road group ride you are expected to ride too close to be able to react and would be chastised if you let a gap open up in front of you. The majority responsibility for crash avoidance shifts from the person following as would be the case normally to the person ahead to set the course and make sure there are no sudden decelerations.

To anyone who has done it I am afraid it is totally obvious it is different. Blindly so.

Have they had a medical check-up? Possible whiplash injury or other after effects plus loss of earnings. If the next bike up front was running disc brakes on a road bike then there is a definite claim there; it is well documented that these are not safe for use on the road. Plus, cafe stop? What's that about then?

Being more serious - unless there was obvious bad riding / pi55ing about then, as others have said, suck it up IMO. Wonder how they deal with it in the TdF?!

The group should have a view on fault - if one or other did something stoopid then (morally) that's their problem

If neither did anything obviously wrong, suck it up - they both chose to ride in a group where members (easy, Bez!) were unacceptable close together in all "normal" situations

Riding as a group on the road you are putting your faith in the person on front to signal changes of pace/hazards on the road.  I was taught not to swerve or break suddenly as this would put the group at more risk.  If the people in front of you were doing their job properly the message should have got to the person behind in time to react.

Based on what you have said you were more to blame than the person behind you.  Like other people have said don’t ride in a group with kit you can’t afford to replace.

Another vote for “shit happens”

This, definitely.  It can be a painful experience, but it's how it is.

On a club ride a few years back, climbing an easy gradient through and off  around 30-35kmh. First rider fluffs a gear shift. Second rider slows, gets hit by third rider.  When the dust settled, rider 2's brand new Supersix Evo was missing its rear triangle, both wheels (Lightweights iirc) completely tacoed.  Very difficult to suck that one up.

If you can afford to spend £189 on a rear bloody mech you can afford to replace it if you crash, and not worry about grabbing money off others involved

members (easy, Bez!) were unacceptable close together in all “normal” situations

Seems reasonable 🙂

Two bikes crashing into each other on the road is nothing like two cars crashing into each other on the road? Yes, that’s totally obvious…

Scenario A: You're in the local park. You're playing football with your friends. As you run along dribbling the ball, one of your friends tackle you and bungles it. In falling to the ground, you break your ankle.

Scenario B: You're in the local park. You're alone, on the way to play football with your friends, dribbling your ball. A person you've never met before runs across to tackle you and bungles it. In falling to the ground, you break your ankle.

Both public places, both the same action, but a completely different relationship and completely different expectations. You know that a football match involves close quarters and a risk of mishap and injury. However you don't expect to be taken down outside of a match by people who haven't undertaken a specific activity with a mutual agreement (whether explicit or implicit) of that sort of risk. Hence in one case, you largely have to put it down to experience (even though you'd expect your friend to be rather apologetic), whilst in the other you'd be quite rightly furious.

Or would you consider these scenarios to be identical?

Too many riders ride way too bling kit - that does not help either. Riding Lightweights on a club ride ffs - almost deserves what's coming. A bike is a tool.

Threads like this really put me off going for a club ride.

Please don't let it. Club group rides have reinvigorated my love of cycling over the last couple of years and opened my eyes to types of riding that I had never previously considered. Sometimes it can be a bit intimidating, but start at the bottom with the slower, more relaxed groups and gradually move up through the ranks. By the time you're with the really fast, close-riding groups, you'll know what your obligations are and won't be worried any more - it'll just be fun**.

My advice would be to find a group within your club that, while not being too aggressive, do at least practice good group riding techniques, then you'll be getting used to riding in a group while being taught good technique. Good luck and I hope you enjoy your cycling!

(** Type 2 fun. Road cycling isn't meant to actually be enjoyable - if it is, you're not trying hard enough!)

Is it beyond repair?

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares-shimano-rear-derailleurs/?groupset=dura-ace

Is it beyond repair?

If he doesn't want to ride until September the jockey wheel cage is yes but not the parallelogram

52 posts and no ones blaming e-bikes ..

If he doesn’t want to ride until September the jockey wheel cage is yes but not the parallelogram

September? Is this referring to workshop backlog?

September? Is this referring to workshop backlog?

Work is already complete and bike is back on the road. The parts broken and bent are out of stock with the UK distributor until September earliest,  don't worry all parties including the shop have scoured the internet for another solution

The parts broken and bent are out of stock with the UK distributor until September earliest

Ah, royal PITA when that happens. Oh well, I suppose they could fix it up as a spare, but I've had rear mechs that are never quite right after a crash, even when they look OK or have been repaired, so I think I'd have been tempted to junk it and replace anyway. Life's too short for clicking gears!

Another incident that makes me thing riding in close groups on the road is not as safe as is often thought.

I would probably inclined to just take the hit if were me. Even if it was the other guys fault really, These things happen etc.

However.....

If the guy behind then blamed my disk brakes rather than his inability to concentrate properly....... then I’d be asking for full RRP + Shop time + Bike hire and claiming whiplash a month later through an online only lawyer.

Muppet 🙄

Massively different to normal traffic car on car action, or a normal bike ride. Riding as a group means agreeing to ride together and take as risk. As others have pointed out one factor in the bike you choose is the cost of replacement in the event of a crash.

It's not quite the same as racing, where such incidents are pretty much guaranteed to occur at some point, but it is a risk you choose to take by being in the bunch. Pay for your own kit if you crash (or are crashed into), if someone offers to pay for it put it down to shock and decline. You could spend an awful amount of time arguing who was to blame otherwise - there's always someone one step further in the chain reaction that caused the crash, don't ride in a group if you're not happy to roll the dice. I've avoided bunches when I had a recently broken wrist as the risk wasn't worth it for me. Similarly if I'd bought the most expensive wonder bike I could afford, I might not be happy to risk it, or I might think what's the point of not enjoying it. But if I got involved in a bunch incident, I'd have to downgrade or cough up.

To put it another way, if you trash a set of wheels at a trail centre, do you sue the trail centre? What if you trash a set of wheels due to a road defect (car or bike)? Totally different case despite some outward similarities.

I’d work on the rule that someone who’s running dura ace should be capable of fitting their own rear mech so would offer to pay for the damage if it was my fault but probably wouldn’t cough up for a bike shop to do the work – it’s a 5 minute job.

Just like someone riding a MTB with Eagle can set that up and fix it, I'd wager the vast majority cant, and why does owning a bike with expensive equipment come with the  prerequisite that you must be able to maintain and fix it yourself? Just like all those chaps with Ferrari's who service them in their shed eh 😉

On another note, and back to the actual OP. If they're club mates and amicable I'm sure they'll come to a reasonable agreement, but at the end of the day, this stuff happens. If you're taken down in a race (off or on road) I very much doubt the other party will offer to pay for the damage to your bike, unless they're just an exceptionally kind / generous / guilty feeling kind of person.

the chap who hit the other one should offer to pay. However if they dont then its tough. You cant ask them

imo

I had it where i slid into someone on a ride. Knocked myself unconcious in the process but broke their rear mech. 100% accident and i offered to pay for any damage. They wouldnt accept a penny.

This is pretty much why I never got into group riding. Not because of money, but because you're riding in a pack, too close for real safety, surrounded by all the usual road hazards etc, with people you don't know a damn thing about. This sort of thing is always going to happen.

I’ve just started riding with a road club, after spending decades avoiding clubs. The amount of shouting and hand waving that goes on is incredible, but compared to another club I tried a few years back, the accident rate seems to be lower. If one of our groups is making a cafe stop, several people will be shouting ‘Slowing’ and making the hand signal for slowing. This means that you are less likely to get rear-ended, but if you do it’s pretty likely to be the rear-enders fault.

It's probably just me but the few times I've ridden with/encountered "shouty groups" all the noise has seemed like more of a distraction and has just made it a more fraught experience, but I appreciate why it happens, a general lack/mixture of experience in the group and not everyone knowing each other, differing levels of  situational awareness/heads up looking about and anticipation of potential hazards... Oh and often simply too many people in the group.

Riding with people I know, we tend not to be a very vocal bunch (and stick to quite small 2-5 at most groups). The lead rider at any given time, knows to point out potholes, manhole covers and road surface issues, and we know each other well enough that we can ride at close quarters, not need to stare at one another's back wheels covering the brakes constantly... so everyone can actually look ahead and anticipate what might be affecting the groups progress within the next 3-400 meters...

with people you don’t know a damn thing about.

Or people that you ride with week in, week out so you can learn their behaviour. Any group should also be winning to shout out someone for being a ****, this (or rather the lack of this) can be a problem in some clubs

It’s probably just me but the few times I’ve ridden with/encountered “shouty groups” all the noise has seemed like more of a distraction

I'm getting used to it. The club is growing very rapidly, with quite a lot of people relatively new to group riding. We usually end up in several groups of 10, so the people at at the back of a group will struggle to see potholes and so on, so there is a need for some kind of system.

If you can afford to spend £189 on a rear bloody mech you can afford to replace it if you crash, and not worry about grabbing money off others involved

no way of knowing from the information provided what proportion of the chap's disposable income £189 represents, and how that differs from the crasher, you, me, or anyone else.

Two bikes crashing into each other on the road is nothing like two cars crashing into each other on the road? Yes, that’s totally obvious…

road bikes in a group are acting as one - the motoring equivalent would be a car driver braking for a cafe turnoff, and chap in the back seat spills his coffee all over the seats causing £189 worth of damage.

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Or people that you ride with week in, week out so you can learn their behaviour.

There are always new people. One of them was you.

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Indeed, so you make sure you keep an eye on them and any decent club will make sure they are quickly onboard with how things work.

Agree with the poster on page 1 who said ‘it depends’. No real liability, but finances, friendliness, guilt, and probably a bunch of other things come into effect. Like most things, it ain’t black & white even if some folks’ thinking is.

First rule of cycling in a group. Don’t race what you can’t replace. When riding in a group shit happens.